Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
Rhong Dhong wrote: --- On Sun, 5/31/09, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: Good one! Floating proteins come wiggling in from afar and find their I have had the pop-science idea that the reason the proteins, and other bits and pieces, found their mates, and found them so quickly, was that at their scales, just randomly I'm a big fan of energy medicine, which a form of energy some times called scalar or nonorthogonal. I assume that the target is emiting a form of which attracts the requisite pieces, or perhaps vice versa. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
well, that wont put me into sleep dep. I go into rem about 4 minutes after falling asleep. i actually sleep BETTER in 1 hour cat naps. (And ive just found, thats a main symptom of narcolepsy. explains a lot actually) Something to remember. electrons don't actaully orbit the nucleus. they bounce around randomly, perhaps actually appearing and dissapearing, or, tunneling, within vague cloud like areas known as orbitals (because of the old Neils Bohr orbital model of the atom. ) These orbitals are actually what cause the transmission spectrums, the transmission spectra is based on an electron absorbing energy, temporarily getting a boost up to a higher orbital, then dropping back down in rank to where it was before. releasing a photon that is the exact energy, and thus frequency (and thus color) of the amount of energy difference between the two states. This is why each atom has a pretty unique spectrum, its based in large part on the top filled orbitals. When electrons are shared in a chemical bond, they bounce back and forth between the filled orbitals of the paired atoms, spending weekends with daddy and weeks with mommy (mommy being the most electronegative of the pair, if they arent the same atom) Now, this fact, based on the distances involved in chemical bonds, means that the electrons are jumping at least the actual radius of the atom more than they were before. And, i recall a video i saw in chemistry long ago that showed mapping of this electron motion. Basically, it showed the general shape of an orbital , the p orbital as i recall, formed by mapping the position of the electron as it moved. there were several outliers, like, edge of the screen dots. I asked my prof at the time if that meant the electron was now and then bouncing way outside of the orbital. His statement, i don't think so, i think its just noise, but it might be. (Favorite chem teacher ever. Was not afraid to say, I don't know. ) might that form of electron tunneling be your radio signal? jumping to orbitals that are the exact same energy, because its the same element at the same energy state? Alex On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 4:03 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: On Sat, 30 May 2009, leaking pen wrote: Im now imagining a rick moranis ribosome wandering around the cell, are you the gatekeeper? I am the keymaster. Give Moranis a radio direction finder, and it all becomes easy! Actually, my previous message was a lead-in to one of my old rants, http://amasci.com/tesla/biores.html Years ago I suffered a 'visionary experience,' and gained insights into all sorts of weird topics, plus much delusional crap which doesn't work when tested. Among it all was a tidbit: the idea that anomalous biological forces exist, forces which act like radio transmitters and receivers, with key-codes to allow biomolecules to be attracted together over many nanometers distance. At the time I was mostly unaware of the unsolved problem in biology, but I'd had suspicions. Heres the quick description: - Even though electrons orbiting atoms don't radiate photons, they do create an extremely intense AC field in the nearfield region surrounding the atom. It's related to AC Casmir forces. Physicists would see this as QM, as a field of virtual photons at the frequency of the atom's absorption line, an AC field of indeterminate phase, oriented along an indeterminate axis. Electrical engineers would imagine that every atom is a tiny AC electromagnet driven by a sinewave source. The atom's local field is AC, so there's no average force being applied to nearby matter. And atoms don't radiate continuously (i.e. there's no loss mechanism.) So, if an electron's period is in the infrared frequencies, the atom will have an AC field which extends outward to 1/4 infrared wavelength (or hundreds of nanometers.) So atoms are different than we believe. They're much larger. But only identical atoms could feel this large size. Example: sodium atoms possess an intense AC field at the sodium line frequency, and if two sodium atoms are ultra-cold and not moving fast with Doppler shift, the oscillations are identical for both atoms, synchronized. They act like bar magnets attracting each other. But these are AC electromagnets. They only see other sodiums, and won't respond to other atoms having a different frequency. But what if two sodium atoms happen to be out of phase? Even if they have identical frequency, might they not repel instead of attracting? Well, that's the same problem as two magnets having their poles out of orientation. Like two magnets they'd experience repulsion, a torque, then they'd flip themselves around, attract, and slam together. (Atoms could only slam together if ultra-cold and not being jostled thermally.) - Molecules: Two atoms with identical frequencies, if bound together into a molecule, will create a line split frequency, a double-hump spectrum
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sat, 30 May 2009, leaking pen wrote: well, that wont put me into sleep dep. I go into rem about 4 minutes after falling asleep. i actually sleep BETTER in 1 hour cat naps. (And ive just found, thats a main symptom of narcolepsy. explains a lot actually) People in the uberman/polyphasic sleep community think it's a learnable behavior. Perhaps it helps to start out with unusual brain chemistry! But at least in my own case, my creative insanity switches on only when I carefully avoid processed food (normal american chow). Heh: and then I start getting city parking spaces at the Jedi Master level of anomalous luck. Something to remember. electrons don't actaully orbit the nucleus. Yep, that's the visualizable grade-school diagram. (Or the diagram of Rydberg atoms in the process of decay.) How can we explain the nature of EM fields in the nearfield region of a very small, sharply tuned RLC resonator? Say that it's being driven by the Casmir background, and so cannot radiate. But that doesn't mean it lacks strong fields in the nearfield region. The danger is that we'd note the lack of real photons being emitted by an atom's electron cloud, conclude that no AC fields exist in the nearfield region, therefore assume no significant EM interactions exist between two distant atoms. But transformers and capacitors are fundamentally different than pairs of distant radio antennas, and they work fine at frequencies with waves too long to radiate. The lack of light photons does not imply a lack of strong coupling between two nearby coils. (Transformers and capacitors function entirely by tunneling photons, of course.) These orbitals are actually what cause the transmission spectrums, the transmission spectra is based on an electron absorbing energy, If I try to boil down all the weird ideas that popped into my head, then here's the real question: do atoms experience significant Vanderwaals forces with nearby atoms of the same species, but not with atoms of different species? (Nearby, as in 50 nanometers, not molecular bond lengths.) The only experiments I've encountered are the very recent ones involving an AFM tip separated from a surface by many nanometers. The tip experiences a large unexplained friction, but only if the tip carries a tiny crystal of the same material of which the nearby surface is composed. In other words, an atom isn't attracted to a similar surface, but instead it causes the surface atoms to emit phonons into the crystal lattice whenever the single atom tries to move nearby. The single atom behaves as if it's trapped in electromagnetic flypaper. And the single atom is far far outside the atomic diameters of the surface atoms. Knowing that there's something weird going on in the tens-nM atomic region, I'd been waiting for such an experiment to crop up. I saw that QM is still incomplete, because people think that atoms are fundamentally different than tiny metal antennas. On the other hand, this topic isn't outside of physics. Instead it's filed under VanderWaals interaction, little understood, little studied, and not given high importance. You can look up VanderWaals explanations and find they cover some of what I'm talking about: an atom's electron cloud undergoes a QM noise fluctuation, creating non-uniform charge distribution, creating a huge EM field which can affect distant atoms by provoking a similar fluctuation But what if the two atoms are of the same element? Then they contain matched resonators, and the energy being borrowed from the virtual sea may be larger than when it's frequency is far from an absorption/emission line. might that form of electron tunneling be your radio signal? jumping to orbitals that are the exact same energy, because its the same element at the same energy state? Definitely. It's nonradiative, brief, virtual-existing tunneling events. The atom constantly emits a line spectrum but absorbs it simultaneously, so no real photons escape. No light, but only the coil/capacitor fields of macroscopic components in oscillation. Or here's another way to say it: a lone electron is surrounded by an intense field of virtual photons, same as a lone proton. Let them combine to form a hydrogen atom, and what happens to this photon population? The textbooks I've encountered don't discuss it. Are they assuming that, since the ground state orbital has a spherical shape, therefore any EM field must be radial and entirely contained inside the orbital? Well, what happens if experiments show otherwise. And also, what happens if another hydrogen atom is passing by at 30nM distance? (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
leaking pen wrote: Something to remember. electrons don't actually orbit the nucleus. they bounce around randomly, perhaps actually appearing and dissapearing, or, tunneling, within vague cloud like areas known as orbitals (because of the old Neils Bohr orbital model of the atom. ) Perhaps the nucleus is a toroid and the electrons go through the hole in the center. When electrons are shared in a chemical bond, they bounce back and forth between the filled orbitals of the paired atoms, spending weekends with daddy and weeks with mommy (mommy being the most electronegative of the pair, if they arent the same atom) Now, this fact, based on the distances involved in chemical bonds, means that what a classic Generation X analogy! but it might be. (Favorite chem teacher ever. Was not afraid to say, I don't know. ) wonderful teacher might that form of electron tunneling be your radio signal? jumping to orbitals that are the exact same energy, because its the same element at the same energy state? Why not, radio waves are electromagnetic radiation, ditto for light. . --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:10 AM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: On Sat, 30 May 2009, leaking pen wrote: People in the uberman/polyphasic sleep community think it's a learnable behavior. Perhaps it helps to start out with unusual brain chemistry! But at least in my own case, my creative insanity switches on only when I carefully avoid processed food (normal american chow). Heh: and then I start getting city parking spaces at the Jedi Master level of anomalous luck. Really? I should look them up. If its causing my blood sugar issues and falling asleep at work, id almost be willing to do something to change the no no i wouldnt. I LOVE being able to take a 5 minute nap and have a 15 minute subjective time frame dream. To digress just a little, I discovered your essays on the wave nature of traffic about a month before getting my license (got it at 22. Just didn't need one sooner, i took the bus everywhere. ) and had a massive impact on my driving style. Without speeding, i always get places before friends that speed becuase , Being unworried, relaxed, letting the road itself dictate things, i get openings when i need them to change lanes just appearing before me, my lights are always green, and people pull out of parking spots right in front of me the moment i enter the lot. Friends of mine riding with me are mystified and amazed. And i find that if im running late, in a rush, harried, angry, wanting everything to move faster. I get screwed with red lights, walls of cars, and no spots to park. I actually bought a website, churchoftheroad, to do a little something about that kind of thing, but, alas, still is a blank page. But i digress.. Something to remember. electrons don't actaully orbit the nucleus. Yep, that's the visualizable grade-school diagram. (Or the diagram of Rydberg atoms in the process of decay.) How can we explain the nature of EM fields in the nearfield region of a very small, sharply tuned RLC resonator? Say that it's being driven by the Casmir background, and so cannot radiate. But that doesn't mean it lacks strong fields in the nearfield region. The danger is that we'd note the lack of real photons being emitted by an atom's electron cloud, conclude that no AC fields exist in the nearfield region, therefore assume no significant EM interactions exist between two distant atoms. But transformers and capacitors are fundamentally different than pairs of distant radio antennas, and they work fine at frequencies with waves too long to radiate. The lack of light photons does not imply a lack of strong coupling between two nearby coils. (Transformers and capacitors function entirely by tunneling photons, of course.) These orbitals are actually what cause the transmission spectrums, the transmission spectra is based on an electron absorbing energy, If I try to boil down all the weird ideas that popped into my head, then here's the real question: do atoms experience significant Vanderwaals forces with nearby atoms of the same species, but not with atoms of different species? (Nearby, as in 50 nanometers, not molecular bond lengths.) Well, vanderwall includes so called London Forces, yes? I was under the impression that those occured between dissimilar atoms, for example, the london forces in water that cause its high viscosity and surface tension occure between O in one atom and H in another. But then, there are many forces included as vanderwall, yes? Is there a particular one you are thinking of that I could hunt down and look more at? The only experiments I've encountered are the very recent ones involving an AFM tip separated from a surface by many nanometers. The tip experiences a large unexplained friction, but only if the tip carries a tiny crystal of the same material of which the nearby surface is composed. In other words, an atom isn't attracted to a similar surface, but instead it causes the surface atoms to emit phonons into the crystal lattice whenever the single atom tries to move nearby. The single atom behaves as if it's trapped in electromagnetic flypaper. And the single atom is far far outside the atomic diameters of the surface atoms. I will have to hunt that one down as well. Very cool. Knowing that there's something weird going on in the tens-nM atomic region, I'd been waiting for such an experiment to crop up. I saw that QM is still incomplete, because people think that atoms are fundamentally different than tiny metal antennas. On the other hand, this topic isn't outside of physics. Instead it's filed under VanderWaals interaction, little understood, little studied, and not given high importance. I saw a quote from a fiction character in a webcomic i read recently that made me laugh. Quantum Mechanics is a lot like religion. One side endeavors to prove their answer is correct by twisting facts and ignoring others, to make their version of reality fit, no matter how stupid it
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 8:44 AM, thomas malloy temall...@usfamily.net wrote: leaking pen wrote: Something to remember. electrons don't actually orbit the nucleus. they bounce around randomly, perhaps actually appearing and dissapearing, or, tunneling, within vague cloud like areas known as orbitals (because of the old Neils Bohr orbital model of the atom. ) Perhaps the nucleus is a toroid and the electrons go through the hole in the center. That would be the f orbital. http://www.chemistry.ucsc.edu/~soliver/151A/Handouts/d-orbitals.gif When electrons are shared in a chemical bond, they bounce back and forth between the filled orbitals of the paired atoms, spending weekends with daddy and weeks with mommy (mommy being the most electronegative of the pair, if they arent the same atom) Now, this fact, based on the distances involved in chemical bonds, means that what a classic Generation X analogy! Considering that the parents who actually have such a setup are generally boomers with their gen x kids, I figured it would be as classic an analogy for the generation that actually HAD such a high number of divorces and split up kids. But hey, whatever floats your boat. but it might be. (Favorite chem teacher ever. Was not afraid to say, I don't know. ) wonderful teacher might that form of electron tunneling be your radio signal? jumping to orbitals that are the exact same energy, because its the same element at the same energy state? Why not, radio waves are electromagnetic radiation, ditto for light. . --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
I love the tuned circuit theory. This DNA video is very fascinating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jtmOZaIvS0feature=related This textillian version shows the nucleotides swarming into place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dveIc7svytI With all these radio signals in the cell, I wonder what prevents intermodulation distortion from causing interference? Terry On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 4:36 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: On Sat, 23 May 2009, Terry Blanton wrote: http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties? Terry, there's also a DNA Telepathy announcement from two or three years back, where two portions of DNA crystal were found to have identical segments via fluorescent tagging ...even though they were on either side of a membrane, and separated by many nanometers. Someone here at the UW published a paper on it. Search on dna telepathy for old hits? Here's one http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124103151.htm Also, there's an enormous unsolved problem in biology which is similar to this 'telepathy' problem, yet nobody talks about it: In living cells, how to keys and locks almost instantly find each other over vast distances, and how can they do it in an environment where organized water behaves as a solid at the micro-level? This problem becomes very obvious in the famous Harvard animation of the workings of a cell, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZZ3DD_tV9k http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/media.html Watch ribosomes come flying in from a distance, then somehow finding and docking to a pore on the nucleus membrane. What attracts them to the membrane? How to they find the pore itself? Wouldn't there have to be some kind of weird, key-lock attractive force that pulls that particular pore-type protein to that particular ribosome-type protein? And next, immediately the film shows another mystery, where the tip of a nucleus RNA comes flying up from below, docks with the pore/ribosome assembly, and starts running the tape to assemble a protein. Why was the tip of the RNA strand attracted to the nuclear membrane? How could it seek out the membrane pore? (Stupid hint, grin: imagine that the video takes place in total darkness, so the molecules can't see where to go!) In other parts of the film, the animators didn't solve the mystery by illustrating unknown forces which nobody talks about. Instead they did it by cheating. When a fiber of actin or tubulin assembles itself, the animators simply created a film of these fibers dissolving, with all the broken parts diffusing away. THEN THEY RAN THE FILM BACKWARDS! It's a total violation of 3rd law entropy, with time running backwards. Molecules come flying in from vast distances and link onto the growing fiber tip. What force drives this amazing phenomenon? More importantly, what forces select the proper type of molecule subunit, and only attracts that type of molecule towards the growing end of the fiber? What mechanism can make it seem that time can run backwards, to assemble subcellular fibers? Nobody knows. Long ago it was explained by diffusion. But then calculations showed that diffusion took too much time. Then years later the discovery of solid organized intracellular water made the problem even more inexplicable. I suspect that the real problem is psychological: Since we KNOW that cellular biology has nearly all problems solved, and no huge revolutions in biological science happen anymore, therefore it's impossible that any vast unknown could still exist. (If it did, it would make our contemporary science look ignorant and primitive, like something from last century! ) So, there's really nothing left to explore, at least nothing big. We're only cleaning up the details, such as the protein-folding mystery. And so, if an entire community of smart and highly trained people looks directly at an enormous unsolved problem ...they won't see it. They're selectively blind. And it's not even the complicated problems that they miss. It's the obvious ones that even little kids would point out. Daddy, why does the continent of Africa fit onto south America like two pieces of a puzzle? Mommy, why does that animation of molecules look like time is running backwards? If mommy is a cell biologist, then... shut up kid, you aren't smart enough to understand. But the little kid is right. DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to. Explanation: None, at least not yet. What's realy amazing: your news item causes a stir, when most of the simplest cellular processes require that the molecules somehow must be attracted together over a distance, as if keys and locks with matching codes: can sense each other. Scientists are reporting evidence that contrary to our current
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sun, 31 May 2009, Terry Blanton wrote: I love the tuned circuit theory. This DNA video is very fascinating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jtmOZaIvS0feature=related Good one! Floating proteins come wiggling in from afar and find their docking site. Now I recall I first encountered the topic around 1985, when trying to build a museum exhibit device to demonstrate an active site on a molecule: a set of magnets in a pattern, and a corresponding set of opposite magnets. There was no attraction until a tiny fraction of a nanometer. But even if real molecules could attract enzymes from 10X farther, they couldn't suck in enzymes from more than a few atomic diameters distance. But in order to function, biochem would need to pull in enzymes from hundreds of atom-diameter distances (if not tens of thousands.) This textillian version shows the nucleotides swarming into place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dveIc7svytI With all these radio signals in the cell, I wonder what prevents intermodulation distortion from causing interference? Narrowband transmitters and receivers! VERY narrow band, using high-Q superconducting tuning coils, and no modulation other than the line-splitting of one or more closely-coupled resonators. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
--- On Sun, 5/31/09, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: Good one! Floating proteins come wiggling in from afar and find their I have had the pop-science idea that the reason the proteins, and other bits and pieces, found their mates, and found them so quickly, was that at their scales, just randomly moving around meant that they were destined to come near one another in a very short period of time. If they had some help from electrical forces which tended to pull them together when they were in the vicinity of each other, then the two factors guaranteed that adenine would quickly unite with thymine, guanine with cytosine, etc., etc. So, even if they were relatively far apart to start with, should this make much difference in their being able to get together?
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sun, 31 May 2009, Rhong Dhong wrote: I have had the pop-science idea that the reason the proteins, and other bits and pieces, found their mates, and found them so quickly, was that at their scales, just randomly moving around meant that they were destined to come near one another in a very short period of time. I think that's the assumption made by the biochem community: it has to be explained by pure diffusion (random wandering and re-tries.) When I started questioning this, someone pointed out an old paper that actually tried some statistical calcs for one particular setup, and found that diffusion was orders of magnitude too slow to explain the reaction rates. Let me see if I can find the ref. Ah, it;s at the bottom of http://amasci.com/tesla/biores.html, below the links Here's one I remember. When a ribosome is spewing out a protein, it has to wait for the previous tRNA to move away, then it has to wait for one special tRNA with matched anticodon out of a large number of unmatched ones, to randomly drift in and dock at the ribosome. It's like shaking up a bag of keys, with one padlock, and waiting long enough for the right key to randomly get positioned near the keyhole. Then the lock changes code, and has to repeat the whole process. The sequence has to occur fast enough to explain the rate of protein synthesis by ribosomes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6O6uRb1D38 But that was old ideas, and today we know that water in cells is a near solid, organized water, so diffusion of large molecules is greatly slowed. So the rate of protein synthesis is even more inexplicable than before. If the ribosome can issue a radio call for the next matched tRNA, ignore the unmatched ones, and have the matched one be ferried into place by electrically biased diffusion, much is explained. As you say, diffusion would succeed over short scales, if there was some other force operating over long length scales. If they had some help from electrical forces which tended to pull them together when they were in the vicinity of each other, then the two factors guaranteed that adenine would quickly unite with thymine, guanine with cytosine, etc., etc. So, even if they were relatively far apart to start with, should this make much difference in their being able to get together? (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sun, 31 May 2009, leaking pen wrote: If I try to boil down all the weird ideas that popped into my head, then here's the real question: do atoms experience significant Vanderwaals forces with nearby atoms of the same species, but not with atoms of different species? (Nearby, as in 50 nanometers, not molecular bond lengths.) Well, vanderwall includes so called London Forces, yes? I was under the impression that those occured between dissimilar atoms, for example, the london forces in water that cause its high viscosity and surface tension occure between O in one atom and H in another. Right, I've been labeling London force as VanderWaals. So basically I'm asking whether the London force is stronger between atoms which have matched absorption lines. The simple example would be two large-N atoms of the same element having many matched lines, though I recall that mercury and O2 has a match. Hmmm, now that you say the above, isn't the temperature of liquid Argon, Neon, etc. determined by the London force? Mix liquid argon with neon in 1:1 mixture, so they start keeping each other apart, and see if the boiling point gets weird. But if the force is strong over great distances, then maybe we'd see little effect. How about vapor pressure over a liquid argon surface. If there was attraction, then perhaps in a vacuum chamber the argon pressure within 10nM of the liquid argon surface would be inexplicably high, or perhaps the condensation rate seen during transients in vapor pressure would be higher than that predicted purely from first principles, thermo stats. Here's one possible ref: Search keywords: Volokitin Persson Non-contact friction enhanced by resonant atoms http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/652-3.html Seriously, things not given high importance always seem to be where the breakthroughs and answers come from, dont they? Yeah, Vanderwaals force always seemed intriguing, only because everybody else is only fascinated by things like numerical solution of covalent bond physics. field must be radial and entirely contained inside the orbital? Well, what happens if experiments show otherwise. And also, what happens if another hydrogen atom is passing by at 30nM distance? My only question is how this tunneling creates an attraction. Is the electron actually imparting a force moving the atoms closer together while doing it? Photon tunneling is also called magnetic field and electric field. How could tiny electric dipoles attract each other? Whether DC fields, or AC fields at the same frequency, I think the math is identical. But now add a ferroelectric environment: liquid environment of water dipoles. One might imagine that the ferroelectric liquid would behave as a shield. But perhaps at short length scales it doesn't? (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
http://tinyurl.com/mqpszt has some info on london forces and their effect on boiling temp. heres some thougts on similar materials and weights and mp and bp. http://cost.georgiasouthern.edu/chemistry/general/molecule/forces.htm On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: On Sun, 31 May 2009, leaking pen wrote: If I try to boil down all the weird ideas that popped into my head, then here's the real question: do atoms experience significant Vanderwaals forces with nearby atoms of the same species, but not with atoms of different species? (Nearby, as in 50 nanometers, not molecular bond lengths.) Well, vanderwall includes so called London Forces, yes? I was under the impression that those occured between dissimilar atoms, for example, the london forces in water that cause its high viscosity and surface tension occure between O in one atom and H in another. Right, I've been labeling London force as VanderWaals. So basically I'm asking whether the London force is stronger between atoms which have matched absorption lines. The simple example would be two large-N atoms of the same element having many matched lines, though I recall that mercury and O2 has a match. Hmmm, now that you say the above, isn't the temperature of liquid Argon, Neon, etc. determined by the London force? Mix liquid argon with neon in 1:1 mixture, so they start keeping each other apart, and see if the boiling point gets weird. But if the force is strong over great distances, then maybe we'd see little effect. How about vapor pressure over a liquid argon surface. If there was attraction, then perhaps in a vacuum chamber the argon pressure within 10nM of the liquid argon surface would be inexplicably high, or perhaps the condensation rate seen during transients in vapor pressure would be higher than that predicted purely from first principles, thermo stats. Here's one possible ref: Search keywords: Volokitin Persson Non-contact friction enhanced by resonant atoms http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/652-3.html Seriously, things not given high importance always seem to be where the breakthroughs and answers come from, dont they? Yeah, Vanderwaals force always seemed intriguing, only because everybody else is only fascinated by things like numerical solution of covalent bond physics. field must be radial and entirely contained inside the orbital? Well, what happens if experiments show otherwise. And also, what happens if another hydrogen atom is passing by at 30nM distance? My only question is how this tunneling creates an attraction. Is the electron actually imparting a force moving the atoms closer together while doing it? Photon tunneling is also called magnetic field and electric field. How could tiny electric dipoles attract each other? Whether DC fields, or AC fields at the same frequency, I think the math is identical. But now add a ferroelectric environment: liquid environment of water dipoles. One might imagine that the ferroelectric liquid would behave as a shield. But perhaps at short length scales it doesn't? (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
Maybe they have the protein equivalent of bird songs? Harry - Original Message - From: Rhong Dhong rongdon...@yahoo.com Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:26 pm Subject: Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP --- On Sun, 5/31/09, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: Good one! Floating proteins come wiggling in from afar and find their I have had the pop-science idea that the reason the proteins, and other bits and pieces, found their mates, and found them so quickly, was that at their scales, just randomly moving around meant that they were destined to come near one another in a very short period of time. If they had some help from electrical forces which tended to pull them together when they were in the vicinity of each other, then the two factors guaranteed that adenine would quickly unite with thymine, guanine with cytosine, etc., etc. So, even if they were relatively far apart to start with, should this make much difference in their being able to get together?
Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sat, 23 May 2009, Terry Blanton wrote: http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties? Terry, there's also a DNA Telepathy announcement from two or three years back, where two portions of DNA crystal were found to have identical segments via fluorescent tagging ...even though they were on either side of a membrane, and separated by many nanometers. Someone here at the UW published a paper on it. Search on dna telepathy for old hits? Here's one http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124103151.htm Also, there's an enormous unsolved problem in biology which is similar to this 'telepathy' problem, yet nobody talks about it: In living cells, how to keys and locks almost instantly find each other over vast distances, and how can they do it in an environment where organized water behaves as a solid at the micro-level? This problem becomes very obvious in the famous Harvard animation of the workings of a cell, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZZ3DD_tV9k http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/media.html Watch ribosomes come flying in from a distance, then somehow finding and docking to a pore on the nucleus membrane. What attracts them to the membrane? How to they find the pore itself? Wouldn't there have to be some kind of weird, key-lock attractive force that pulls that particular pore-type protein to that particular ribosome-type protein? And next, immediately the film shows another mystery, where the tip of a nucleus RNA comes flying up from below, docks with the pore/ribosome assembly, and starts running the tape to assemble a protein. Why was the tip of the RNA strand attracted to the nuclear membrane? How could it seek out the membrane pore? (Stupid hint, grin: imagine that the video takes place in total darkness, so the molecules can't see where to go!) In other parts of the film, the animators didn't solve the mystery by illustrating unknown forces which nobody talks about. Instead they did it by cheating. When a fiber of actin or tubulin assembles itself, the animators simply created a film of these fibers dissolving, with all the broken parts diffusing away. THEN THEY RAN THE FILM BACKWARDS! It's a total violation of 3rd law entropy, with time running backwards. Molecules come flying in from vast distances and link onto the growing fiber tip. What force drives this amazing phenomenon? More importantly, what forces select the proper type of molecule subunit, and only attracts that type of molecule towards the growing end of the fiber? What mechanism can make it seem that time can run backwards, to assemble subcellular fibers? Nobody knows. Long ago it was explained by diffusion. But then calculations showed that diffusion took too much time. Then years later the discovery of solid organized intracellular water made the problem even more inexplicable. I suspect that the real problem is psychological: Since we KNOW that cellular biology has nearly all problems solved, and no huge revolutions in biological science happen anymore, therefore it's impossible that any vast unknown could still exist. (If it did, it would make our contemporary science look ignorant and primitive, like something from last century! ) So, there's really nothing left to explore, at least nothing big. We're only cleaning up the details, such as the protein-folding mystery. And so, if an entire community of smart and highly trained people looks directly at an enormous unsolved problem ...they won't see it. They're selectively blind. And it's not even the complicated problems that they miss. It's the obvious ones that even little kids would point out. Daddy, why does the continent of Africa fit onto south America like two pieces of a puzzle? Mommy, why does that animation of molecules look like time is running backwards? If mommy is a cell biologist, then... shut up kid, you aren't smart enough to understand. But the little kid is right. DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to. Explanation: None, at least not yet. What's realy amazing: your news item causes a stir, when most of the simplest cellular processes require that the molecules somehow must be attracted together over a distance, as if keys and locks with matching codes: can sense each other. Scientists are reporting evidence that contrary to our current beliefs about what is possible, intact double-stranded DNA has the “amazing” ability to recognize similarities in other DNA strands from a distance. When ribosomes are assembling proteins, and the little tRNA's are bringing in the subunits to join the growing strand ...how does the ribosome pull in those particular building-blocks from vast distances? Whatever this mystery-force may be, it's enormously strong, since proteins are assembled at kilohertz rate. [sarcasm]Or maybe it's
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
I knew this article reminded me of something. Thanks Bill. btw, cant resist. Watch ribosomes come flying in from a distance, then somehow finding and docking to a pore on the nucleus membrane. What attracts them to the membrane? How to they find the pore itself? Wouldn't there have to be some kind of weird, key-lock attractive force that pulls that particular pore-type protein to that particular ribosome-type protein? Im now imagining a rick moranis ribosome wandering around the cell, are you the gatekeeper? I am the keymaster. On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 2:36 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote: On Sat, 23 May 2009, Terry Blanton wrote: http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties? Terry, there's also a DNA Telepathy announcement from two or three years back, where two portions of DNA crystal were found to have identical segments via fluorescent tagging ...even though they were on either side of a membrane, and separated by many nanometers. Someone here at the UW published a paper on it. Search on dna telepathy for old hits? Here's one http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124103151.htm Also, there's an enormous unsolved problem in biology which is similar to this 'telepathy' problem, yet nobody talks about it: In living cells, how to keys and locks almost instantly find each other over vast distances, and how can they do it in an environment where organized water behaves as a solid at the micro-level? This problem becomes very obvious in the famous Harvard animation of the workings of a cell, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZZ3DD_tV9k http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/media.html Watch ribosomes come flying in from a distance, then somehow finding and docking to a pore on the nucleus membrane. What attracts them to the membrane? How to they find the pore itself? Wouldn't there have to be some kind of weird, key-lock attractive force that pulls that particular pore-type protein to that particular ribosome-type protein? And next, immediately the film shows another mystery, where the tip of a nucleus RNA comes flying up from below, docks with the pore/ribosome assembly, and starts running the tape to assemble a protein. Why was the tip of the RNA strand attracted to the nuclear membrane? How could it seek out the membrane pore? (Stupid hint, grin: imagine that the video takes place in total darkness, so the molecules can't see where to go!) In other parts of the film, the animators didn't solve the mystery by illustrating unknown forces which nobody talks about. Instead they did it by cheating. When a fiber of actin or tubulin assembles itself, the animators simply created a film of these fibers dissolving, with all the broken parts diffusing away. THEN THEY RAN THE FILM BACKWARDS! It's a total violation of 3rd law entropy, with time running backwards. Molecules come flying in from vast distances and link onto the growing fiber tip. What force drives this amazing phenomenon? More importantly, what forces select the proper type of molecule subunit, and only attracts that type of molecule towards the growing end of the fiber? What mechanism can make it seem that time can run backwards, to assemble subcellular fibers? Nobody knows. Long ago it was explained by diffusion. But then calculations showed that diffusion took too much time. Then years later the discovery of solid organized intracellular water made the problem even more inexplicable. I suspect that the real problem is psychological: Since we KNOW that cellular biology has nearly all problems solved, and no huge revolutions in biological science happen anymore, therefore it's impossible that any vast unknown could still exist. (If it did, it would make our contemporary science look ignorant and primitive, like something from last century! ) So, there's really nothing left to explore, at least nothing big. We're only cleaning up the details, such as the protein-folding mystery. And so, if an entire community of smart and highly trained people looks directly at an enormous unsolved problem ...they won't see it. They're selectively blind. And it's not even the complicated problems that they miss. It's the obvious ones that even little kids would point out. Daddy, why does the continent of Africa fit onto south America like two pieces of a puzzle? Mommy, why does that animation of molecules look like time is running backwards? If mommy is a cell biologist, then... shut up kid, you aren't smart enough to understand. But the little kid is right. DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to. Explanation: None, at least not yet. What's realy amazing: your news item causes a stir, when most of the simplest cellular processes require that the molecules somehow
Re: Great biological mystery force Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
On Sat, 30 May 2009, leaking pen wrote: Im now imagining a rick moranis ribosome wandering around the cell, are you the gatekeeper? I am the keymaster. Give Moranis a radio direction finder, and it all becomes easy! Actually, my previous message was a lead-in to one of my old rants, http://amasci.com/tesla/biores.html Years ago I suffered a 'visionary experience,' and gained insights into all sorts of weird topics, plus much delusional crap which doesn't work when tested. Among it all was a tidbit: the idea that anomalous biological forces exist, forces which act like radio transmitters and receivers, with key-codes to allow biomolecules to be attracted together over many nanometers distance. At the time I was mostly unaware of the unsolved problem in biology, but I'd had suspicions. Heres the quick description: - Even though electrons orbiting atoms don't radiate photons, they do create an extremely intense AC field in the nearfield region surrounding the atom. It's related to AC Casmir forces. Physicists would see this as QM, as a field of virtual photons at the frequency of the atom's absorption line, an AC field of indeterminate phase, oriented along an indeterminate axis. Electrical engineers would imagine that every atom is a tiny AC electromagnet driven by a sinewave source. The atom's local field is AC, so there's no average force being applied to nearby matter. And atoms don't radiate continuously (i.e. there's no loss mechanism.) So, if an electron's period is in the infrared frequencies, the atom will have an AC field which extends outward to 1/4 infrared wavelength (or hundreds of nanometers.) So atoms are different than we believe. They're much larger. But only identical atoms could feel this large size. Example: sodium atoms possess an intense AC field at the sodium line frequency, and if two sodium atoms are ultra-cold and not moving fast with Doppler shift, the oscillations are identical for both atoms, synchronized. They act like bar magnets attracting each other. But these are AC electromagnets. They only see other sodiums, and won't respond to other atoms having a different frequency. But what if two sodium atoms happen to be out of phase? Even if they have identical frequency, might they not repel instead of attracting? Well, that's the same problem as two magnets having their poles out of orientation. Like two magnets they'd experience repulsion, a torque, then they'd flip themselves around, attract, and slam together. (Atoms could only slam together if ultra-cold and not being jostled thermally.) - Molecules: Two atoms with identical frequencies, if bound together into a molecule, will create a line split frequency, a double-hump spectrum instead of a single spectral line. Large biomolecules have a complicated band of frequencies. But the band has the same basic nature as the double-hump line spectrum of a simple 2-atom molecule. Imagine a radio system based on double-hump receivers, not single line spectra. Two tuning knobs, and 2D tuning indicator. So biomolecules are like our resonant sodium atoms above: their line spectrum creates an AC field which happens to be in synch with any identical biomolecule. The identical molecules pull upon each other over relatively large distances (distances shorter than half a wavelength.) - Complicated molecules have a complicated spectrum, giving a key/lock effect where two molecules can attract, but where attraction is easily turned off by making some small change to spoil the synchronized AC fields. So perhaps molecules could use this to *communicate*. A transmitter and receiver section of two distant proteins would be linked like two DC charged capacitor plates. But if one of the pair was changed slightly, the force between them would vanish: it would turn from DC to AC. You've got a pair of CW walkie-talkies, plus a morse code key which detunes one of them to break the connection. This comm link could evolve into a nervous system, a sub-cellular one. It's a nervous system which runs the organization inside single cells. But each link in it's many chanins would only be effective over a few tens of nanometers. This would put a maximum limit on the size of a single-cell organism. Like Apatosaurus which isn't aware that a preditor is biting the tip of its tail. To grow a larger animal, multiple cells would have to group together. Years after seeing these ideas, I read that Terrence McKenna's brother, a biologist, found out about the same concepts. http://www.heffter.org/pages/djm.html He got it from LSD/DMT visions, and called it something like intelligent superconductive biomolecules which talk with each other. Well, yeah, I guess they'd be called superconductive radios, since the AC field around an atom persists forever, with no friction at the micro level. But the central idea is molecule radios, and labeling them 'superconductive' is just a distraction.
Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
It would appear from the abstract: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp7112297 that you are on the right track. These spherulites appear to reach out and touch. Terry On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 12:22 AM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. the more i think of it, the more i wonder also... a lot of dna movement in liquids , the charge and polarity, is based on the final few bps on each end. I wonder if same bp ends but different strands would end up together... that or size in general. you know, the same thing that makes western blots work. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:08 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to leaking pen's message of Sat, 23 May 2009 10:15:40 -0700: Hi, I think you are almost on the right track. There was recently a demonstration of how water molecules could align with one another to a depth of hundreds of thousands of molecules away from a surface. In so doing they form a dielectric layer(*) that has the effect of communicating the charge from one side to the other. The implication is that the charge pattern along the DNA strand would be thus communicated and the strands most likely to be attracted, would be those with the closest matching opposite charges IOW with the matching pattern. * In a capacitor, the presence of a dielectric effectively reduces the distance between the plates. Umm, if we are talking nanometer distances... water is, due to naturally h+ and oh - dissasociation, going to have pockets of charge. mighten they not be moving towards each other, but towards the same patch of water? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
Umm, if we are talking nanometer distances... water is, due to naturally h+ and oh - dissasociation, going to have pockets of charge. mighten they not be moving towards each other, but towards the same patch of water? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties? DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to. Explanation: None, at least not yet. Scientists are reporting evidence that contrary to our current beliefs about what is possible, intact double-stranded DNA has the “amazing” ability to recognize similarities in other DNA strands from a distance. Somehow they are able to identify one another, and the tiny bits of genetic material tend to congregate with similar DNA. The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. Even so, the research published in ACS’ Journal of Physical Chemistry B, shows very clearly that homology recognition between sequences of several hundred nucleotides occurs without physical contact or presence of proteins. Double helixes of DNA can recognize matching molecules from a distance and then gather together, all seemingly without help from any other molecules or chemical signals. In the study, scientists observed the behavior of fluorescently tagged DNA strands placed in water that contained no proteins or other material that could interfere with the experiment. Strands with identical nucleotide sequences were about twice as likely to gather together as DNA strands with different sequences. No one knows how individual DNA strands could possibly be communicating in this way, yet somehow they do. The “telepathic” effect is a source of wonder and amazement for scientists. “Amazingly, the forces responsible for the sequence recognition can reach across more than one nanometer of water separating the surfaces of the nearest neighbor DNA,” said the authors Geoff S. Baldwin, Sergey Leikin, John M. Seddon, and Alexei A. Kornyshev and colleagues. This recognition effect may help increase the accuracy and efficiency of the homologous recombination of genes, which is a process responsible for DNA repair, evolution, and genetic diversity. The new findings may also shed light on ways to avoid recombination errors, which are factors in cancer, aging, and other health issues. end
Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
In reply to leaking pen's message of Sat, 23 May 2009 10:15:40 -0700: Hi, I think you are almost on the right track. There was recently a demonstration of how water molecules could align with one another to a depth of hundreds of thousands of molecules away from a surface. In so doing they form a dielectric layer(*) that has the effect of communicating the charge from one side to the other. The implication is that the charge pattern along the DNA strand would be thus communicated and the strands most likely to be attracted, would be those with the closest matching opposite charges IOW with the matching pattern. * In a capacitor, the presence of a dielectric effectively reduces the distance between the plates. Umm, if we are talking nanometer distances... water is, due to naturally h+ and oh - dissasociation, going to have pockets of charge. mighten they not be moving towards each other, but towards the same patch of water? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:GATC and ESP
Exactly. the more i think of it, the more i wonder also... a lot of dna movement in liquids , the charge and polarity, is based on the final few bps on each end. I wonder if same bp ends but different strands would end up together... that or size in general. you know, the same thing that makes western blots work. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:08 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to leaking pen's message of Sat, 23 May 2009 10:15:40 -0700: Hi, I think you are almost on the right track. There was recently a demonstration of how water molecules could align with one another to a depth of hundreds of thousands of molecules away from a surface. In so doing they form a dielectric layer(*) that has the effect of communicating the charge from one side to the other. The implication is that the charge pattern along the DNA strand would be thus communicated and the strands most likely to be attracted, would be those with the closest matching opposite charges IOW with the matching pattern. * In a capacitor, the presence of a dielectric effectively reduces the distance between the plates. Umm, if we are talking nanometer distances... water is, due to naturally h+ and oh - dissasociation, going to have pockets of charge. mighten they not be moving towards each other, but towards the same patch of water? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
