Hoi,
Sources may take sides. Absolutely. It is exactly by producing
"alternative" facts that some sources define themselves. Once it has been
established that a sourced statement is actually a lie, it becomes clear
cut. We do not write articles to accommodate whoever, when they lie and it
is
Is the WMF actually focusing its annual report on a country's political system,
or is that mainly a perception influenced by the country in which many of the
critics happen to live?
Also, why would the WMF be so different if it was headquartered outside the US?
Should the country it is based
Well, Erik...I really don't think my personal beliefs have a role in this
discussion, except as they very narrowly apply to the Wikimedia mission,
vision and "values". That's actually one of my issues with this report - it
reads as though it's been written by a bunch of well-paid, talented people
Please Peter. If the WMF was based in either of those places, it would be a
very different organization. And in neither case would it be focusing its
annual report on some other country's political system.
Risker/Anne
On 3 March 2017 at 01:20, Peter Southwood
Let me put it another way,
If the WMF was based in Reykjavik, or Abidjan, would the response be the same?
Cheers,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
John Mark Vandenberg
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 7:47 AM
To:
On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Peter Southwood
wrote:
> If the format was compiled before Trump was elected, then this argument is
> either irrelevant or becomes that the foundation must avoid offending
> politicians in power by changing public statements to be
Would your objections have been as strong if the controversy was created by a
politician in a different country?
Cheers,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
Nathan
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 3:58 AM
To: Wikimedia
If the format was compiled before Trump was elected, then this argument is
either irrelevant or becomes that the foundation must avoid offending
politicians in power by changing public statements to be uncontroversial at the
time of publishing.
Cheers,
Peter
-Original Message-
From:
I agree with Pine's comments. Lots of good things happening and great content,
and that should not be minimized in all this. If I left that impression then
my apologies to the content creators and annual report staff on those points.
-george
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 2, 2017, at 5:10
Agree with Todd. People should be given a chance to either remove the image
or comply with the license before legal action is taken.
Peter does this work better
https://books.google.ca/books?id=aQPMAwAAQBAJ=gbs_navlinks_s
J
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Todd Allen
Yes surveys are useful if set up properly. Having a group of volunteers
interested in doing this work would be amazing. Not seeing why we could not
manage this in house. Surveys could be developed collaboratively on meta.
James
On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Peter Southwood <
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 2:46 AM, Anna Stillwell
wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> I want to thank everyone for offering their considered thoughts. I mean
> that genuinely. There are many legitimate views expressed in this thread,
> many by generous, constructive, wise, and
A gracious, substantive, thorough & fast response to public feedback...
I find your methods intriguing and would like to subscribe to your
newsletter.
Thank you, Zack.
SJ
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:26 PM, Zachary McCune
wrote:
> Craig, first, thank you. I am honored to be
Hi Eric,
Speaking generally, I think that telling stories about Wikimedia content
and platforms, and how content is created, delivered, or used, are all
likely to be compatible with WMF's mission when the stories are written in
an NPOV way. I must have missed the link to Andreas' arctic
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Stuart Prior
wrote:
> As an example, anthropogenic climate change is a politically sensitive
> issue, but how can a consensus-driven movement not take into account that
> 97% of climate scientists acknowledge its existence
> ?
> [1]
Just a quick note on the 350 edits per minute. Zach described that
somewhat as "facts are constantly checked."
In general many edits are vandalism and add false, defamatory, or nonsense
content, and many edits add content that may or may not be factual
(unsourced or otherwise flaky). Wikipedia
Craig, first, thank you. I am honored to be here and to be answerable.[1]
SJ, Florence, George, you are right. We need better, deeper collaboration
for brand projects like the Annual Report. And I would like to help meet
that challenge. We are actually starting the 2017 Annual Report much
Hi Gerard,
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Gerard Meijssen
wrote:
> Hoi,
> Facts, sources do not take sides. When Wikipedia has to write articles
> differently to accomodate alternative facts we have a serious problem.
>
It's not as clear cut as you say it here. :)
So my 2p:
The issue for me is the selection of topics more than the presentation of
each topic.
I'm not concerned that the document's written differently and with
different standards of sourcing to a Wikipedia article. That's fairly
natural.
But selecting 2x refugees and climate change in a
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 4:33 AM, WereSpielChequers <
werespielchequ...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Otherwise, I haven't fact checked the whole thing, but one problem with the
> second sentence:
>
>
> *Across the world, mobile pageviews to our free knowledge websites
> increased by 170 million
If you stand far enough to the right, everyone has a left bias.
Cheers,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
George William Herbert
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 10:08 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re:
Hoi,
Facts, sources do not take sides. When Wikipedia has to write articles
differently to accomodate alternative facts we have a serious problem.
No, we do not have to show the other side when this is based on a lie. We
can inform about the lie but it is not as if we have to present it for
>>> It's more ammunition for everyone else's distrust and fear of our community
>>> and organizational motives.
>>
>> Are there any actual reasons to believe that such distrust and fear
>> exists apart from those upset about being on the losing end of some
>> Wikipedia content dispute?
>
> Surely
My 2¢ The avoidance of politically sensitive issues is not the same as
being politically neutral.
Political neutrality isn’t about shifting your politics to wherever your
local Overton window currently sits. It involves a longer, broader, global
view of what accepted political norms are.
On Mar 2, 2017, at 11:13 AM, James Salsman wrote:
>> politics damages our brand in real and serious ways.
>
> Such as how? This assertion keeps being made without any evidence supporting
> it.
>
>> It's more ammunition for everyone else's distrust and fear of our
Perhaps we could refer this question to the Advancement department. Does
appealing for money for one thing and spending it on another damage the
Foundation's ability to raise funds in the future?
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:13 PM, James Salsman wrote:
> > politics damages our
> On Mar 2, 2017, at 9:22 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>
> I note this discussion is leaning "I totally am not offended myself,
> but unspecified others might be." I think some posters need to own
> their own discomfort more.
>
> The trouble with liberality is a tendency to
This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The
Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community in
question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this topic
here it
David
Forum shopping is usually considered to be taking an issue from one forum
to another hoping to get the answer you want. I do not believe I have
raised this question in any other forum. I hope that helps you make the
distinction your are having difficulty with. Please explain what you
This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list,
which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad
nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish
from forum shopping.
On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors
On 2 March 2017 at 12:07, Steinsplitter Wiki
wrote:
> This WMF Annual Report has imho a obvious political connotation. Wikimedia
> should remain politically neutral in any regard. WP:POV;
In 2017, literally the concept of factual information is an active
matter of
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very
list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W wrote:
> Rogol,
>
> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try
> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
>
Thanks for jumping in Zach.
Good explanations and contextual background. Thanks.
Bunch of suggestions for fixes and small improvement (sourcing, legend)
have been offered on this list by others. Good.
I have another easy to implement suggestion that might help to decrease
potential
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.
I certainly think we should treat differently people who don't even try to
attribute the photographer or comply with the license (like the ones James
mentioned), and those who are clearly making the effort but don't get it
quite right.
If someone is using
Hi Todd,
as I understand the discussion (but Rupert, please correct me if I'm
wrong), the issue is primarily with bad faith uploaders (if that is indeed
what they are). These people would upload material under a free license
(presumably with as complicated as descriptions as possible) in the hope
I don’t think any of us are arguing we should “ignore politics” (that is to
say, try to avoid mentioning it or referring to it whenever possible). One of
our values as a movement is recognizing that there are many different
perspectives on many different issues (which is one of the things I
I cant get there through your link, maybe something is happening
Cheers,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
James Heilman
Sent: Thursday, 02 March 2017 4:47 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] a
We have a publisher who have created a few hundred thousand books based on
Wikipedia text. Here is an example of one of many
https://books.google.ca/books?id=aQPMAwAAQBAJ=PT100
They do not attribute Wikipedia and they do not release the content under a
CC BY SA 3.0 license. They claim copyright
On 02/03/17 13:55, David Gerard wrote:
> There is no such thing as "no politics", there is only "I am not
> personally reminded of the discomfort of others".
>
>
> - d.
Channelling Margaret Thatcher, David?
:-)
Gordo
___
Wikimedia-l mailing
On 02/03/17 13:30, Peter Southwood wrote:
> It is not possible to get away from politics while remaining in contact with
> civilisation.
>Politics follows you around. It is possible to ignore politics only
until they affect you directly.
> Cheers,
> Peter
The real world (laws and customs) has
In short, wiki projects existence itself is a political act.
Furthermore, it's a "liberal" (in wide sense) political act: you may
attribute values as free and universal access to knowledge to various
political factions, but these values are the founding principle of this
virtual place.
Also, even
On 2 March 2017 at 13:30, Peter Southwood wrote:
> It is not possible to get away from politics while remaining in contact with
> civilisation. Politics follows you around. It is possible to ignore politics
> only until they affect you directly.
Well, yes. Who
The CC-BY-SA license asks for a basic courtesy: You give an acknowledgement
to the person who graciously let you use their work totally free.
It takes all of five seconds to add "Photo by ___" to a caption. It
takes very little more to add a note that the photo is CC licensed. I can
see
It is not possible to get away from politics while remaining in contact with
civilisation. Politics follows you around. It is possible to ignore politics
only until they affect you directly.
Cheers,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l
Like SJ I love the imagery and and style. As for the rest, I come here to
get away from politics, so it is a little unsettling to see the WMF get so
overtly political even though part of me revels in the sentiments. I too
worry how unsettling that would be for those who don't share the politics
Haven't seen the banner, but i think it is:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_South_Africa/SOPA=AR2016_ipd_long=en=1
Von: Wikimedia-l im Auftrag von
Lodewijk
Gesendet:
I agree with Florence.
This WMF Annual Report has imho a obvious political connotation. Wikimedia
should remain politically neutral in any regard. WP:POV;
--Steinsplitter
Von: Wikimedia-l im Auftrag von
Florence
> On Mar 2, 2017, at 1:14 AM, James Salsman wrote:
>
> On the contrary, the left-wing is the only source of credible,
> trustworthy, and bias-free information on a wide variety of topics
> such as climate change. Equating neutrality with credibility and
> trustworthiness
I just wanted to add one last thing; thanks to Zachary McCune as well for
coming and engaging with the community on this. I imagine that it may have
felt like marching into the jaws of the beast to come and deal with the
criticism, so I have to give him much respect for coming and engaging. I
> Refugees ... don't have anything to do with the WMF
Someone forgot to tell that to the Foundation volunteers working on
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/12/24/refugee-phrasebook/
which is directly linked from that section of the Annual Report.
> messages like this "empower" only those who
Hi Anna,
Thanks for offering your thoughts on this (and I mean that sincerely).
Lord knows that sometimes the temperature on this list and in other venues
rises to a point where no communication of substance can occur, and all
that is achieved is that everyone walks away with bruised egos and
My two cents.
I agree with the sentiments in the statement/report.
I don't feel comfortable seeing them from the WMF. I would not be comfortable
seeing them from a PBS mission statement or report, a Humane Society report,
the Red Cross, ... ok, the ACLU has about said as much. But I feel
noting:for give my missing any finer point my German isnt sufficient to
read the discussion without the aid of google translate
The question your asking is should the author of the image have the right
to enforce the licensing of work they have uploaded. The position you take
is that they dont
Pine,
You and I have a call scheduled and we can begin to think together on this
issue. Thank you.
/a
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Pine W wrote:
> Hi Anna,
>
> Thanks for chiming in.
>
> As someone who is personally feeling a lot of strain between myself and WMF
> --
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