Re: [Wikimedia-l] Biggest disappointment from Wikimania 2017

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2015-10-06 16:21, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:

To be honest, I can not recollect a single instance WMF people ever
apologized to the community for any decision, even when it was
immediately clear that they screwed up badly (like removing admin
rights on WMF Wiki etc). I do not expect it this time. I do not see
Elly Young in any of the Wikimania threads.

Cheers
Yaroslav



I was off-list provided with such an example, and Aubrey made another 
example off-list, so that I am going to retract my statement. However, I 
certainly would like to see more examples of apologies when people screw 
up, and also thanking volunteers in public never harms. I thank Elly for 
her response, though I do not feel like she addresses the main issue: 
asking Manila and Perth teams to submit a bid at the time when it was 
decided that Montreal gets it. This is not my business anymore though, I 
would not attend Wikimania in either city anyway.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedians of Republic of Srpska

[Cristian Consonni]

Il 06/Ott/2015 23:11, "Asaf Bartov"  ha scritto:
>
> (As a courtesy for the possibly-confused: [[Republika Srpska
> ]].)

I have to say that it took me a while.
Congrats to the new group!

Cristian
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Biggest disappointment from Wikimania 2017

[Ellie Young]

I believe we all know now by now that the Committee regrets the  delay in
posting a recommendation about the process change for venues/hosts for
Wikimania.   There was no intention to blindside anyone or to not seek
input from the community.   We should have updated the bid timeline to
reflect that things were being discussed and might be possibly changed. (I
was also wanting more time to investigate whether the idea of Montreal for
a 2017 venue could become a reality e.g., meeting space, prices, hotels,
etc confirmed, etc.)

I have reached out to the Perth bid, and also to Josh Lim about a bid from
the Philippines (although it wasn't listed) about the future and to offer
whatever support they need.If anyone else is thinking about hosting a
future Wikimania, I would like to strongly encourage you to get in touch
directly with me before starting.We are not happy about wasting any
volunteer time.   I have worked closely with recent groups in preparing
their proposals and it was worked well-- saving time and effort on both
ends.

In the near future I will be working with the Foundation and the Steering
Committee to support development of a clearer process going forward.  Siko
has outlined some of that in her posting.   And as Richard has said below,
I am usually very prompt in responding, but I also have a lot on my plate
right now that are taking precedent-- like the financial reporting from the
past two Wikimanias to attend to, survey results,  preparing for a site
visit to Montreal (and I am part-time).

I look forward to working with everyone in the coming months and years on
 improving the conference and meeting the community needs.

Keep those cards and letters coming!

Ellie

Ellie Young
Events Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
eyo...@wikimedia.org


>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:27:35 +0100
> From: Richard Symonds 
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Biggest disappointment from Wikimania 2017
> Message-ID:
>  xcgcneaylvqvty3acg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Yaroslav,
>
> To be fair to Ellie (and speaking as an outsider), she is extremely busy
> and usually answers direct emails quite quickly, but doesn't usually get
> involved in big community discussion threads on mailing lists because she
> spends a lot of her time travelling (and thus, I suspect,using a mobile
> device).
>
> Richard Symonds
> Wikimedia UK
> 0207 065 0992
>
> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
> United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
> movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
> operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
>
> *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
> over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
>
> On 6 October 2015 at 15:21, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
>
> > On 2015-10-06 06:25, Gnangarra wrote:
> >
> >> This has been going on for three days, yet not one person involved in
> this
> >> decision has take a moment to reachout personally to the people who
> worked
> >> on bids, They have tabled justifications on list discussions, they have
> >> changed the status of Meta pages but not once have they given anyone the
> >> courtesy of owning the mistakes that have caused this, not even the WMF
> >> has
> >> made any personal attempt to help reconcile the damage at a more
> personal
> >> level..
> >>
> >>
> > To be honest, I can not recollect a single instance WMF people ever
> > apologized to the community for any decision, even when it was
> immediately
> > clear that they screwed up badly (like removing admin rights on WMF Wiki
> > etc). I do not expect it this time. I do not see Elly Young in any of the
> > Wikimania threads.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
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>
>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Gregory Varnum  wrote:
> Given that enWP alone has 123,540 active editors as of this morning,[1] it’s 
> not exactly a stretch…

What percentage of those are credible stakeholders in Wikimania?

How many are going to be eligible for Wikimania scholarships?

How many will attend a Wikimania?

Obviously a relative constant percentage will be attendees due to it
being very affordable to attend from their home.
This is an argument for ensuring the host cities are very
geographically diverse, but factoring in the size of the 'casual'
editor community who is likely to attend for this reason.

So, probably the most important question, depending on whether
Wikimania is to be a community event (which is up for debate)...

How many would fly to another country at their own expense to attend Wikimania?

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedians of Republic of Srpska

[Asaf Bartov]

(As a courtesy for the possibly-confused: [[Republika Srpska
]].)

   A.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Carlos M. Colina 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> On behalf of the Affiliations Committee, I have the honor to announce the
> recognition of a new Wikimedia User Group in Eastern Europe: the
> Wikimedians of Republic of Srpska.
>
> Among their goals are, apart from expanding the community of contributors
> in the Republic of Srpska, introducing Wikimedia projects to educational
> insititutions of all levels in Republic of Srpska and using the different
> resources available in the Wikimedia projects to improve the quality of the
> education.
>
> Let's say dobrodošli to our colleagues! 8-)
>
>
> 1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Republic_of_Srpska
> --
> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> Carlos M. Colina
> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve
> 
> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> Twitter: @maor_x
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> 




-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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[Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedians of Republic of Srpska

[Carlos M. Colina]

Dear all,

On behalf of the Affiliations Committee, I have the honor to announce 
the recognition of a new Wikimedia User Group in Eastern Europe: the 
Wikimedians of Republic of Srpska.


Among their goals are, apart from expanding the community of 
contributors in the Republic of Srpska, introducing Wikimedia projects 
to educational insititutions of all levels in Republic of Srpska and 
using the different resources available in the Wikimedia projects to 
improve the quality of the education.


Let's say dobrodošli to our colleagues! 8-)


1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Republic_of_Srpska
--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua 
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."

Carlos M. Colina
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | 
www.wikimedia.org.ve 

Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
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[Wikimedia-l] Community Reviewers needed for Individual Engagement Grant proposals!

[Chris Schilling]

Hey folks,

Proposals for the current round of Individual Engagement Grant (IEG)
applications are now available, and include many great ideas:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG#ieg-join

Grant applicants are seeking feedback on these proposals from contributors
like yourself through Oct. 19th!  If one of these ideas catches your
attention, consider reading it over, and feel free to endorse, express
concerns, make suggestions, and ask questions.  Your input and expertise
will help the applicants develop better proposals, and support the IEG
Committee during their evaluation. Reading over an IEG proposal may even
inspire you to get involved with a proposal by volunteering, becoming an
advisor, or even submitting one of your own ideas.

Hope to hear from you soon!

Many thanks,

Jethro

-- 
Chris "Jethro" Schilling
I JethroBT (WMF) 
Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation

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[Wikimedia-l] Recognition of Wikimedia MA User Group

[Carlos M. Colina]

Dear all,

I am honored to announce the recognition of another Wikimedia User Group 
from the Middle East and North Africa: Wikimedia MA User Group [1]. They 
seek to contribute actively to the dissemination, improvement and 
advancement of free knowledge and culture through the development and 
distribution of encyclopedias, collections of quotations, books and 
other educational compilations of documents, especially in the languages 
spoken in Morocco.


Please join us in welcoming a new member of the family of affiliates 8-)

Mabrouk!


1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_MA_User_Group
--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua 
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."

Carlos M. Colina
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | 
www.wikimedia.org.ve 

Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thoughts on carrying the Wikimania conversation forward

[Pete Forsyth]

Gnangarra, you're attaching a great deal of significance to a small detail
in a complex situation. But please do look at the broader picture:

   - The chair of the Wikimania Committee has acknowledged that the
   Montreal selection is not confirmed.[1]
   - The supervisor of the committee's WMF representative has asserted the
   selection is not confirmed, and made assertions that match the original
   published timeline. (start of this thread)
   - The committee's/jury's *recommendations* (and they really have never
   been anything more) have been followed in the past; but there has never *yet
   *been a viable alternative recommendation.

When I was a member of the Wikimania Jury, it was pretty well acknowledged
within the jury that the setup was far from ideal, and should ideally have
a stronger mandate and a more transparent processes. The problem has long
been broadly acknowledged; it's not terribly controversial, but it will
take effort to make an improvement.

It seems that with the establishment of the Wikimania Committee, an effort
has been made to fix the basic problems; from what I've read here, that
effort has not (yet?) been successful, meaning that more work is needed.

The only way the Wikimania Committee's recommendation will be unopposed is
it is accepted by those in a position to offer an alternative. There is
LOTS OF TIME to offer an alternative, if you or anybody else wants to start
offering suggestions for how to do so.

If you think the best way forward is for everybody involved to accept the
Montreal recommendation *months before WMF will do so*, OK. That seems like
a strange conclusion, but I don't really have any stake in where Wikimania
is held, so you'll get no argument from me. But I do think anybody who
disagrees with you and the Wikimania Committee should not hesitate to work
toward a viable alternative. There's still plenty of time.

[1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/13980522

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Gnangarra  wrote:

> interesting suggestions Pete but the published timeline is based on the
> published process which has now been marked as obsolete/historical. We also
> know none of that process had been followed nor was there any intention to
> follow that process. Are you seriously suggesting people continue to put
> time and effort into the bids and ask people outside of the movement to
> also make effort, without any leadership from WMF that there is even any
> value in it.
>
> Lets look at the possible outcomes how they will perceived if Montreal 2017
> is not followed through with;
>
>- Montreal still wins - it was already decided the process was token
>gesture to effort of the others but it was never going to be anything
> but
>- Perth , Manila, or Bali - who ever wins will be seen as the most vocal
>opponent to process and being awarded 2017 was an appeasement not a
> genuine
>best contender
>- another city not yet in the pool -  went there to stop all the
>arguments, a spiteful decision by those involve in the original decision
>because of the backlash from the bidders who followed the published
>processes
>
>
> It really doesnt matter how a solution is proposed the way events have
> occurred it has poisoned every selection outcome option, the best way
> forward is for WMF to just accept Montreal and then put effort into
> restoring community faith in the Wikimania processes and repairing the
> damage done to those communities who acted in good faith following the
> process laid down and refined by the community over the last 10 years.
>
>
>
> On 6 October 2015 at 22:47, Pete Forsyth  wrote:
>
> > All:
> >
> > Based on a number of the posts in this thread, I think a few points are
> > worth underscoring.
> >
> >1. The Wikimania Jury (historical -- and for what it's worth, I was a
> >member) and Wikimania Committee (present) have never had a strong
> > mandate.
> >Its recommendations have generally been accepted by the Wikimedia
> > community
> >and the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >2. While it's possible the Wikimania Committee made what it
> *originally
> >intended* to be a final and binding decision, there is nothing
> > preventing
> >the committee from revisiting its decision.
> >3. As evident in Siko's post, the WMF does not yet regard the Montreal
> >decision as final, and does not expect to reach such a decision before
> > the
> >end of 2015.
> >
> > Siko's message aligns with the long-published timeline for venue
> > selection.[1]
> >
> > For comparison, past decisions have been made as late as March or April.
> > There is still A LOT of time to make a final decision.
> >
> > I'd suggest that anybody deeply dissatisfied with either the process or
> > proposed decision of the Wikimania Committee simply devote their efforts
> to
> > supporting an alternative bid (Perth, Manila, or elsewhere; the original
> > timeline still allows plenty of t

[Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Join the community review of 11 annual plan grants proposals to the FDC

[Katy Love]

Hello, Wikimedians!

I want to share with you that the community review period for the Annual
Plan Grants (APG) program is underway for eleven proposals. These
organizations are requesting unrestricted funding to support their annual
plans, including both programmatic and operational costs. These requests in
Round 1 total roughly US$4.2 million, out of US$6 million available in both
rounds this year. In mid-November, Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC), [1]
a volunteer committee made up of members of the Wikimedia community, will
convene. They will meet in San Francisco to discuss these proposals in
detail and make a recommendation to the WMF Board of Trustees on use of
these funds.

>From now until 30 October, we invite everyone to review the proposals, and
to provide thoughts and ask questions on the discussion pages of the
proposals. You can begin your exploration of the proposals on the community
review landing page here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2015-2016_round1/Community_review.


About community review: Annual plan grant proposals are submitted to the
FDC on 1 October. That is followed by a 30-day open comment period. During
this community review, all are invited to provide input on and ask
questions about specific proposals on the discussion pages of the proposal
forms. Applicants are also asked to respond to input and questions during
this period, although they are not able to change the proposal form itself
after the submission date.

The FDC follows the discussion pages of the proposals in preparation for
their deliberations in November. These questions, comments and responses
are an input to their collaborative decision-making process. While anyone
can comment on proposals after the open comment period closes on 30
October, the FDC may not be able to take comments made after this period
into consideration when making its decisions about funding.

How to join in the review: Please visit the community review page [2] to
view the proposals being considered and follow the instructions on that
page. The proposals are only available in English, but your comments on the
discussion pages do not need to be in English.

Why your feedback matters: We hope that this open comment period will add
to an in-depth and robust review of each proposal. The community review
process also helps make our grantmaking transparent and collaborative. The
FDC and the WMF staff value feedback and insights from the Wikimedia
community in making its funding recommendations.

You can find more information about the APG program, the FDC or the
upcoming milestones on our portal. [3] Please let us know if you have any
questions, concerns, or feedback about the process. You can reach the FDC
support staff can be reached at fdcsupp...@wikimedia.org

Warm regards,
Katy Love

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Funds_Dissemination_Committee
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2015-2016_round1/Community_review
[3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Information
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[Gregory Varnum]

Given that enWP alone has 123,540 active editors as of this morning,[1] it’s 
not exactly a stretch…

-greg

[1]: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias


> On Oct 6, 2015, at 3:14 PM, MF-Warburg  wrote:
> 
> Do you really believe the community consists of several 100.000 people?
> Am 06.10.2015 21:01 schrieb "Joseph Fox" :
> 
>> On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 17:27 Steinsplitter Wiki <
>> steinsplitter-w...@live.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> To be honest: I am not surprised at all.
>>> 
>>> Wikimedia Foundation is becoming moor and moor centralized. They no
>> longer
>>> care about the community, even if there is huge community consensus about
>>> something.
>>> 
>>> Why is there a secret committee needed? It is easier to ask the
>> community.
>>> 
>> 
>> While I agree it's important to sort things with the community (since that
>> is the lifeblood of the projects), are you seriously suggesting that it's
>> easier to gauge the consensus of hundreds of thousands of people rather
>> than make a decision in a smaller committee, secret or otherwise?
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> I am disappointed
>>> 
 Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:13:13 -0400
 From: nawr...@gmail.com
 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost
 
 Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal
>> has
 been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
 completed this past August. [1]
 
 It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
 before it was a done deal.
 
 ~Nathan
 
 [1]
 
>>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
 ___
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 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[Joseph Fox]

If you want the views of everyone on every project... then yes, I do.

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 20:14 MF-Warburg  wrote:

> Do you really believe the community consists of several 100.000 people?
> Am 06.10.2015 21:01 schrieb "Joseph Fox" :
>
> > On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 17:27 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > steinsplitter-w...@live.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > To be honest: I am not surprised at all.
> > >
> > > Wikimedia Foundation is becoming moor and moor centralized. They no
> > longer
> > > care about the community, even if there is huge community consensus
> about
> > > something.
> > >
> > > Why is there a secret committee needed? It is easier to ask the
> > community.
> > >
> >
> > While I agree it's important to sort things with the community (since
> that
> > is the lifeblood of the projects), are you seriously suggesting that it's
> > easier to gauge the consensus of hundreds of thousands of people rather
> > than make a decision in a smaller committee, secret or otherwise?
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I am disappointed
> > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:13:13 -0400
> > > > From: nawr...@gmail.com
> > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost
> > > >
> > > > Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal
> > has
> > > > been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process
> that
> > > > completed this past August. [1]
> > > >
> > > > It seems like the community could have been looped into this new
> method
> > > > before it was a done deal.
> > > >
> > > > ~Nathan
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> > > > ___
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> > > 
> > >
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> > > <
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[MF-Warburg]

Do you really believe the community consists of several 100.000 people?
Am 06.10.2015 21:01 schrieb "Joseph Fox" :

> On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 17:27 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> steinsplitter-w...@live.com>
> wrote:
>
> > To be honest: I am not surprised at all.
> >
> > Wikimedia Foundation is becoming moor and moor centralized. They no
> longer
> > care about the community, even if there is huge community consensus about
> > something.
> >
> > Why is there a secret committee needed? It is easier to ask the
> community.
> >
>
> While I agree it's important to sort things with the community (since that
> is the lifeblood of the projects), are you seriously suggesting that it's
> easier to gauge the consensus of hundreds of thousands of people rather
> than make a decision in a smaller committee, secret or otherwise?
>
> Joe
>
>
> >
> > I am disappointed
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:13:13 -0400
> > > From: nawr...@gmail.com
> > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost
> > >
> > > Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal
> has
> > > been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> > > completed this past August. [1]
> > >
> > > It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
> > > before it was a done deal.
> > >
> > > ~Nathan
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> > > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[Joseph Fox]

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 17:27 Steinsplitter Wiki 
wrote:

> To be honest: I am not surprised at all.
>
> Wikimedia Foundation is becoming moor and moor centralized. They no longer
> care about the community, even if there is huge community consensus about
> something.
>
> Why is there a secret committee needed? It is easier to ask the community.
>

While I agree it's important to sort things with the community (since that
is the lifeblood of the projects), are you seriously suggesting that it's
easier to gauge the consensus of hundreds of thousands of people rather
than make a decision in a smaller committee, secret or otherwise?

Joe


>
> I am disappointed
>
> > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:13:13 -0400
> > From: nawr...@gmail.com
> > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost
> >
> > Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
> > been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> > completed this past August. [1]
> >
> > It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
> > before it was a done deal.
> >
> > ~Nathan
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thoughts on carrying the Wikimania conversation forward

[Gnangarra]

interesting suggestions Pete but the published timeline is based on the
published process which has now been marked as obsolete/historical. We also
know none of that process had been followed nor was there any intention to
follow that process. Are you seriously suggesting people continue to put
time and effort into the bids and ask people outside of the movement to
also make effort, without any leadership from WMF that there is even any
value in it.

Lets look at the possible outcomes how they will perceived if Montreal 2017
is not followed through with;

   - Montreal still wins - it was already decided the process was token
   gesture to effort of the others but it was never going to be anything but
   - Perth , Manila, or Bali - who ever wins will be seen as the most vocal
   opponent to process and being awarded 2017 was an appeasement not a genuine
   best contender
   - another city not yet in the pool -  went there to stop all the
   arguments, a spiteful decision by those involve in the original decision
   because of the backlash from the bidders who followed the published
   processes


It really doesnt matter how a solution is proposed the way events have
occurred it has poisoned every selection outcome option, the best way
forward is for WMF to just accept Montreal and then put effort into
restoring community faith in the Wikimania processes and repairing the
damage done to those communities who acted in good faith following the
process laid down and refined by the community over the last 10 years.



On 6 October 2015 at 22:47, Pete Forsyth  wrote:

> All:
>
> Based on a number of the posts in this thread, I think a few points are
> worth underscoring.
>
>1. The Wikimania Jury (historical -- and for what it's worth, I was a
>member) and Wikimania Committee (present) have never had a strong
> mandate.
>Its recommendations have generally been accepted by the Wikimedia
> community
>and the Wikimedia Foundation.
>2. While it's possible the Wikimania Committee made what it *originally
>intended* to be a final and binding decision, there is nothing
> preventing
>the committee from revisiting its decision.
>3. As evident in Siko's post, the WMF does not yet regard the Montreal
>decision as final, and does not expect to reach such a decision before
> the
>end of 2015.
>
> Siko's message aligns with the long-published timeline for venue
> selection.[1]
>
> For comparison, past decisions have been made as late as March or April.
> There is still A LOT of time to make a final decision.
>
> I'd suggest that anybody deeply dissatisfied with either the process or
> proposed decision of the Wikimania Committee simply devote their efforts to
> supporting an alternative bid (Perth, Manila, or elsewhere; the original
> timeline still allows plenty of time for even *submitting* a bid). The
> Wikimedia Foundation has a good deal of influence over legitimizing the
> choice of a private group.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2017_bids
>
> In short, there is no emergency here; rather, there's lots of opportunity
> to come up with alternative venue options and alternative process
> proposals.
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Carlos M. Colina 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Siko
> >
> > El 06/10/2015 a las 01:11 a.m., Siko Bouterse escribió:
> >
> >> Hi folks,
> >>
> >> Just letting you know that I’m reading the recent Wikimania-focused
> >> mailing
> >> list threads with interest, as the Community Resources team is now
> >> on-point
> >> for funding and coordinating WMF’s involvement in Wikimania.
> >>
> >> A couple of first thoughts to share:
> >>
> >> 1. WMF has learned from past Wikimanias that we need to do our
> >> due-diligence on venue etc before the host team and location is
> announced.
> >> One reason for this is that we have a limited budget for Wikimania, and
> >> doing a site visit before the host is finalized helps us ensure that
> we’re
> >> able to support the costs of the event in a given location. Ellie Young
> is
> >> headed to Montreal in 2 weeks and based on what she learns from that
> >> visit,
> >> we’re aiming to give the steering committee what they need to confirm
> >> selection before the end of 2015.
> >>
> >
> > Seriously? But the committee seems to have already taken a decision as
> > early as August, with the e-announcement mail scheduled to be sent
> sometime
> > in October
> >
> >///
> >
> >/Wikimania Committee meeting/
> >
> >2015-08-21, 16:00 UTC / 09:00 PDT
> >DECISION: Committee happy to endorse Montréal as a great choice for
> >2017. /
> >
> > /
> > /
> >
> >/Venue//: wikimedia-l, wikimania-l/
> >
> >/Audience: Prospective Wikimania attendees, and other interested
> >Wikimedians/
> >
> >/What//: Announce 2017 venue/
> >
> >/When//: ~ October 2015/
> >
> >/From//: James F. as Chair, o/b/o the Wikimania Committee/
> >
> >
> >/Subject/

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

> I trust in a small number of capable and active people trusted with a
> concrete task.

Seriously? I trust the community. 

Imho the community has more trust then a small group of functionary's.


Apart from that, i agree with Steffen Prößdorf (thanks for posting your 
concerns).

--Stein

> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 18:33:01 +0200
> From: zvand...@gmail.com
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost
> 
> 2015-10-05 18:16 GMT+02:00 Nathan :
> 
> > The WCA council was a bureaucratic mess that seemed almost doomed from its
> > inception. I think the comparison is inapt.
> >
> 
> No, there was hardly any "bureaucracy", the problem was that Council
> members did not met their tasks, did not show up at votings etc.
> 
> I trust in a small number of capable and active people trusted with a
> concrete task. That is realistic, that works. People get along the
> best and come to the best results when everybody knows about what is
> expected from them.
> 
> Kind regards
> Ziko
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

To be honest: I am not surprised at all.

Wikimedia Foundation is becoming moor and moor centralized. They no longer care 
about the community, even if there is huge community consensus about something. 

Why is there a secret committee needed? It is easier to ask the community.

I am disappointed

> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:13:13 -0400
> From: nawr...@gmail.com
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost
> 
> Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
> been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> completed this past August. [1]
> 
> It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
> before it was a done deal.
> 
> ~Nathan
> 
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Biggest disappointment from Wikimania 2017

[Andrea Zanni]

Hi Yaroslav


> To be honest, I can not recollect a single instance WMF people ever
>> apologized to the community for any decision, even when it was immediately
>> clear that they screwed up badly (like removing admin rights on WMF Wiki
>> etc).
>
>
I think it's worth remembering one time they did: a month ago they, when
they decided to change the schedule of the fundraising in Italy, as it was
conflicting with Wiki Loves Monuments.

I understand your point, of course, but I think it's fair to recall the
good things as well as the bad ones, if we want to improve this
relationship.

Aubrey

>
> Yaroslav
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thoughts on carrying the Wikimania conversation forward

[Pete Forsyth]

All:

Based on a number of the posts in this thread, I think a few points are
worth underscoring.

   1. The Wikimania Jury (historical -- and for what it's worth, I was a
   member) and Wikimania Committee (present) have never had a strong mandate.
   Its recommendations have generally been accepted by the Wikimedia community
   and the Wikimedia Foundation.
   2. While it's possible the Wikimania Committee made what it *originally
   intended* to be a final and binding decision, there is nothing preventing
   the committee from revisiting its decision.
   3. As evident in Siko's post, the WMF does not yet regard the Montreal
   decision as final, and does not expect to reach such a decision before the
   end of 2015.

Siko's message aligns with the long-published timeline for venue
selection.[1]

For comparison, past decisions have been made as late as March or April.
There is still A LOT of time to make a final decision.

I'd suggest that anybody deeply dissatisfied with either the process or
proposed decision of the Wikimania Committee simply devote their efforts to
supporting an alternative bid (Perth, Manila, or elsewhere; the original
timeline still allows plenty of time for even *submitting* a bid). The
Wikimedia Foundation has a good deal of influence over legitimizing the
choice of a private group.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2017_bids

In short, there is no emergency here; rather, there's lots of opportunity
to come up with alternative venue options and alternative process proposals.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Carlos M. Colina 
wrote:

> Hi Siko
>
> El 06/10/2015 a las 01:11 a.m., Siko Bouterse escribió:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Just letting you know that I’m reading the recent Wikimania-focused
>> mailing
>> list threads with interest, as the Community Resources team is now
>> on-point
>> for funding and coordinating WMF’s involvement in Wikimania.
>>
>> A couple of first thoughts to share:
>>
>> 1. WMF has learned from past Wikimanias that we need to do our
>> due-diligence on venue etc before the host team and location is announced.
>> One reason for this is that we have a limited budget for Wikimania, and
>> doing a site visit before the host is finalized helps us ensure that we’re
>> able to support the costs of the event in a given location. Ellie Young is
>> headed to Montreal in 2 weeks and based on what she learns from that
>> visit,
>> we’re aiming to give the steering committee what they need to confirm
>> selection before the end of 2015.
>>
>
> Seriously? But the committee seems to have already taken a decision as
> early as August, with the e-announcement mail scheduled to be sent sometime
> in October
>
>///
>
>/Wikimania Committee meeting/
>
>2015-08-21, 16:00 UTC / 09:00 PDT
>DECISION: Committee happy to endorse Montréal as a great choice for
>2017. /
>
> /
> /
>
>/Venue//: wikimedia-l, wikimania-l/
>
>/Audience: Prospective Wikimania attendees, and other interested
>Wikimedians/
>
>/What//: Announce 2017 venue/
>
>/When//: ~ October 2015/
>
>/From//: James F. as Chair, o/b/o the Wikimania Committee/
>
>
>/Subject: //Wikimania 2017 to be held in Montréal in Canada/
>
>
>/All,/
>
>
>/I am delighted to announce on behalf of the Wikimania Committee
>that Wikimania, the annual Wikimedia community conference, will be
>held for 2017 in Montréal in Canada; congratulations. /
>
>
>
> That said, we recognize that
>> communications around this haven’t gone as planned,
>>
>
> Sort of.
>
>>   and we are looking into
>> improvements…(see thought 2)
>>
>> 2. We, too, would like to see the movement building towards a shared
>> vision
>> of Wikimania! It is great to see so many people, in true Wikimedian-style,
>> thinking about big-picture questions of participation, representation, and
>> content at Wikimania. Knowing that mailing list discussions have their
>> limits, here’s how my team is thinking about collecting feedback more
>> systematically for this going forward:
>>
>> We’ll be launching a community consultation in November to help build
>> towards more shared vision and process improvements for Wikimania 2018 -
>> 2021. Two key inputs we’ve been thinking about using to launch that
>> conversation are 1) responses from the survey of last Wikimania’s
>> attendees
>> and 2) the steering committee’s recommendation for host selection going
>> forward.
>>
>> We’re still regrouping from the latest Resources Consultation, and will
>> begin planning for a Wikimania Consultation next week, so after that we’ll
>> be able to share more information about what this consultation will look
>> like and the exact timeline. Meanwhile, suggestions and open questions
>> that
>> you’d like to see resolved via this consultation are most welcome in this
>> thread. My hope is that a consultation will help broaden participation in
>> these conversations and get us from inpu

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Biggest disappointment from Wikimania 2017

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2015-10-06 16:27, Richard Symonds wrote:

Yaroslav,

To be fair to Ellie (and speaking as an outsider), she is extremely 
busy
and usually answers direct emails quite quickly, but doesn't usually 
get
involved in big community discussion threads on mailing lists because 
she

spends a lot of her time travelling (and thus, I suspect,using a mobile
device).

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992



Hi Richard,

needless to say, I will be happy to be proven wrong.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Biggest disappointment from Wikimania 2017

[Richard Symonds]

Yaroslav,

To be fair to Ellie (and speaking as an outsider), she is extremely busy
and usually answers direct emails quite quickly, but doesn't usually get
involved in big community discussion threads on mailing lists because she
spends a lot of her time travelling (and thus, I suspect,using a mobile
device).

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

On 6 October 2015 at 15:21, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:

> On 2015-10-06 06:25, Gnangarra wrote:
>
>> This has been going on for three days, yet not one person involved in this
>> decision has take a moment to reachout personally to the people who worked
>> on bids, They have tabled justifications on list discussions, they have
>> changed the status of Meta pages but not once have they given anyone the
>> courtesy of owning the mistakes that have caused this, not even the WMF
>> has
>> made any personal attempt to help reconcile the damage at a more personal
>> level..
>>
>>
> To be honest, I can not recollect a single instance WMF people ever
> apologized to the community for any decision, even when it was immediately
> clear that they screwed up badly (like removing admin rights on WMF Wiki
> etc). I do not expect it this time. I do not see Elly Young in any of the
> Wikimania threads.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Biggest disappointment from Wikimania 2017

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2015-10-06 06:25, Gnangarra wrote:
This has been going on for three days, yet not one person involved in 
this
decision has take a moment to reachout personally to the people who 
worked

on bids, They have tabled justifications on list discussions, they have
changed the status of Meta pages but not once have they given anyone 
the
courtesy of owning the mistakes that have caused this, not even the WMF 
has
made any personal attempt to help reconcile the damage at a more 
personal

level..



To be honest, I can not recollect a single instance WMF people ever 
apologized to the community for any decision, even when it was 
immediately clear that they screwed up badly (like removing admin rights 
on WMF Wiki etc). I do not expect it this time. I do not see Elly Young 
in any of the Wikimania threads.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New Wikimedia Spain board

[Cristian Consonni]

2015-10-04 23:25 GMT+02:00 Santiago Navarro :
> President: Santiago Navarro
> Vice-president: Jorge Sierra
> Secretary: Luis Ulzurrun
> Treasurer: Miguel Ángel García
> Board member: David Abián
> Board member: Diego Delso
> Board member: Jesús Tramullas
> Board member: José Emilio Mori
> Board member: Manuel Palomo
> Board member: Manuel Torío
> Board member: Montserrat Sáez
> Board member: Pablo Machón
> Board member: Pedro Pacheco
>
> I want to thank to the former members of WMES board, Felipe Ortega and Rubén
> Ojeda. I hope that this new periode could help us.

Congrats and thanks to all the new and former board members.

Enhorabuena!

C

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[Gnangarra]

On 6 October 2015 at 15:15, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Theoretically you are right, you COULD restart the process for a next year.
> That is quite a professional attitude. Ask yourself, is that the kind of
> effort you can ask of volunteers.. Be reasonable. It is too much effort for
> what benefit ?
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
>
>
​Its not something you ask volunteers to do as such, its something that the
volunteers choose to do.  You go into it being optimistic of your chances
otherwise you wouldnt even be there knowing that its a fair transparent
selection process negates much of disappointment in missing out.

 Yes you can take what you've learnt and try again later, since 2008 Perth
& 2009 Brisbane bids it was very apparent that costs were an issue this
further compounded by the A$ being worth more than the US$, in the last 6
months that changed dramatically some of the underlying factors that added
to costs have also shifted. Accommodation is readily available, airfares
are down because the boom that triggered all of that is over supply is high
and demand is falling which means  Australia has a window of opportunity a
fix 3 year cycle remember that in fairness its doubtful that a region will
see two consecutive Wikimanias even at 3 years apart on rotation thats a 15
year cycle between opportunities for each supposed region yet North America
and Western Europe have a guaranteed opportunity every three years, you
dont build capacity, capabilities or create incentives when the cycle is
one opportunity in 15 years. Theres absolutely no ability to factor in once
off circumstances without cause more disharmony

Ultimately that core of local community volunteers on the ground willingly
engaged in the Event planning from the beginning is a critical factor that
this shift is over looking, its something that someone sitting in an office
in San Francisco can never replicate.



-- 
GN.
Vice President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Theoretically you are right, you COULD restart the process for a next year.
That is quite a professional attitude. Ask yourself, is that the kind of
effort you can ask of volunteers.. Be reasonable. It is too much effort for
what benefit ?
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 6 October 2015 at 01:18, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
> >I, for one, am immensely grateful that you and your team (and Manilla's
> >just as much) chose to start such a hard endeavor for the community's
> >benefit!  I really wish that communications and timing had been better
> >so that neither of your teams ended up wasting any effort too early (no
> >doubt you'll be contacted for future years as both locations are
> >desirable and your willingness to host is now known).
> >
> >I know that the steering committee contacted our team (tentatively, very
> >early in the year) in part because they were aware that we were already
> >fully set to host Wikimania in 2017 with the groundwork for our hosting
> >having started in 2010, and most of our preparations still usable (and,
> >I expect, an opportunity to hold the first Wikimania in a Francophone
> >location played a part).  It's clear to me the steering committee
> >dropped a ball in not noticing that both of your teams had started
> >working on bids in time to communicate with you.
> >
> >That said, this kind of wasted effort is - from what I understand - the
> >very reason why the process needed changing.  Even if three teams bid
> >for 2017, two of them would necessarily have wasted the tremendous work
> >that goes into preparing a bid - including the credibility cost of long
> >talks with venue and sponsors that turn out to a miss and the morale hit
> >of loosing in a bidding process.  I suppose I'm a bit "glad" that the
> >leak occured before our team was ready to make the official announcement
> >because - if nothing else - this will prevent that waste to have been
> >even worse.
>
> This reads a bit strangely to me. You seem to suggest that bids can be
> worked on for many years: in this case, saying that planning for Montreal
> started in 2010 for an eventual 2017 bid. However, you continue on to
> write that it's wasted effort if a bid fails in a particular year.
> Wouldn't failed bids be re-usable in subsequent years?
>
> My guess is that sponsors and venues are capable of understanding a
> bidding process, so long as it's appropriately communicated to them.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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