Re: [Wikimedia-l] Defamation of Wikipedia in a Telugu (te) Motion Picture

[Swapnil Karambelkar]

It can prove to be a grave threat to wiki users as well as contributors
since their login id and passwords can be stolen moreover privacy issues
and vandalism, malpractices issues can arise later on if these logins are
used in wiki itself .please look into the matter on legal as well as
technical grounds and see if there is any security threat or vulnerability
is there with Wikimedia/wikipedia  or sister projects.
thanks

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 1:41 AM, Chico Venancio 
wrote:

> I opened devtools here and this is what I could gather,
>
> bywiki.com seems to be a very thin layer over wikimedia itself. The first
> calls are to bywiki domain (and seem to be actually cached from wikimedia
> servers with some extra added code, including added advertisement with a
> bidvertiser script).
>
> Many js scripts make calls directly to wikimedia servers, including scripts
> to check for session validity and sessions from other projects. While it
> does not seem malicious, I don't trust due to the lack of an explanation
> and trademark violation issues.
>
> Their ips seem to be globally blocked, the calls to edit will be seem from
> wikimedia servers as coming from them and are (all the times I tested,
> blocked).
>
>
> Chico Venancio
>
> 2017-10-05 13:41 GMT-03:00 James Heilman :
>
> > To add to my prior comments, while bywiki.com is very well put
> > together there are trademark issues that need to be addressed. Plus
> > the log-in setup could confuse Wikipedians into giving away their user
> > name and password. I will pass this along to legal and hopefully we
> > can get the site to address these issues.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:28 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
> > > It is a beautifully done copy of Wikipedia. The history tab, talk
> > > pages, and user pages all work and thus appropriate attribution is
> > > present. The content is up to date. My IP is blocked so not sure how
> > > well editing works.
> > >
> > > This mirror gives me greater concern https://everipedia.org/ in that
> > > they do not provide attribution to the authors of the content.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <
> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> > >> On 5 October 2017 at 12:34, Swapnil Karambelkar <
> swapnil@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> copy of Hindi
> > >>> wikipedia also using WMF logos,etc.it seems to be violating the
> > >>> norms,please comment and look into the matter .
> > >>>
> > >>> https://hi.bywiki.com
> > >>
> > >> Not just hi.Wikipedia - see, for example, https://en.bywiki.com/wiki/
> > Main_Page
> > >>
> > >> bywiki.com is registered to Chengdu West Dimension Digital Technology
> > >> Co., Ltd. with a contact address in China:
> > >>
> > >>https://www.whois.com/whois/bywiki.com
> > >>
> > >> This may be a mirror site intended to bypass censorship, but in any
> > >> case is a matter for the Wikimedia foundation.
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
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> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Facebook test features Wikipedia

[Gnangarra]

wonderful concept, and yes we need to do more about Newspapers on
Wikipedia.   Fortunately for Australia there has been a number of state
libraries working on creating articles about all newspapers, so we had
links in referencing to the source details in each state so Australian
newspapers are at least ahead of the curve on the information.  It may be
something that can be suggested libraries, beside these two examples we
have Northern Territory, Queensland and Victorian libraries also working on
the project thanks to support from the Australian National Library which is
another one of those projects to grow from seeds scattered by Liam Wyatt
some years ago.


   -
   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/State_Library_of_Western_Australia/The_Newspaper_Project
   -
   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/State_Library_of_New_South_Wales/The_Newspaper_Project
   -


On 6 October 2017 at 07:15, Toby Negrin  wrote:

> Hi Andy -- at about 18 seconds into the video, you can see content that's
> identified, albeit in light gray font, as being from Wikipedia with links
> to the article and the license.
>
> -Toby
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On 5 October 2017 at 21:20, Strainu  wrote:
> > > 2017-10-05 23:14 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :
> >
> > >> Sounds good - does anyone know of any screen-shots. or video, showing
> > >> this in action?
> > >
> > > Check out the video in the original announcement that Toby linked to.
> >
> > I saw that video, but it neither mentions nor shows content from
> Wikipedia.
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > ___
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> > 
> >
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>



-- 
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Facebook test features Wikipedia

[Toby Negrin]

Hi Andy -- at about 18 seconds into the video, you can see content that's
identified, albeit in light gray font, as being from Wikipedia with links
to the article and the license.

-Toby

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On 5 October 2017 at 21:20, Strainu  wrote:
> > 2017-10-05 23:14 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :
>
> >> Sounds good - does anyone know of any screen-shots. or video, showing
> >> this in action?
> >
> > Check out the video in the original announcement that Toby linked to.
>
> I saw that video, but it neither mentions nor shows content from Wikipedia.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Board Recruitment: Updates

[Samuel Klein]

Thank you for this detailed update.

On Oct 5, 2017 5:24 PM, "Nataliia Tymkiv"  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Board recruiting has been demanding. We launched our first truly global
> search. It was far more work than we expected. But I am glad to say that we
> have significantly expanded our talent network and are engaged in
> conversation with four, uniquely talented finalists.
>
> We have missed some deadlines given our focus on movement strategy and the
> “all fronts” nature of the search for talent at the executive and board
> level.
>
> Now, I am able to present you with the new timeline and process, as we
> decide among final candidates. We hope they will be able to join the Board
> for our November meeting (the original plan was to have them join the Board
> for Wikimania 2017).
>
> Below is the last published timeline with comments and explanations at each
> stage.
>
> 1) Application and referral submission period (January 23 - August)
>
> We asked applicants to apply online:
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Work_with_us#Wikimedia_Careers. We
> accepted applications and referrals by email at
> board-nominati...@lists.wikimedia.org.
>
> The overview: We decided to start from our own networks and expand outward.
> We reached far and wide, proactively, looking in Africa, Latin America,
> Asia. In the course of our work, Katherine met a non-profit executive
> recruiter. She volunteered to look for us. She delivered many very strong
> and exciting candidates from multiple continents, one finalist. Slowly, our
> networks then also produced three, very strong finalists as well.
>
> Initially we planned for this stage to be over by March 6 [1], but the
> timeline was ambitious  It took us longer to find the right fit. We decided
> the right fit is worth the wait. So we extended the deadline to May 6 [2].
>
> It took us longer. The process required more networking.
>
> At the end of May, Katherine was introduced to a non-profit recruiter. They
> volunteered to look for us and they sourced a pool of very promising
> additional candidates - 23 people with very diverse backgrounds - for the
> BGC to evaluate on June 3.
>
> We accepted referrals until August 10. For the record: we should always be
> constantly looking for potential candidates, so it would not take so much
> time for us in the future.
>
> 2) Application and referral review, proactive candidate recruitment, and
> interviews (January - ongoing)
>
> 2a) Initial application review and screenings (January - August)
>
> This stage was entirely conducted by Wikimedia Foundation staff. By
> mid-April Katherine Maher and Anna Stillwell had spoken to 21 people,
> either potential candidates themselves or people who could recommend
> candidates. We also considered some of our former Trustees. They did not
> have capacity, and required travel time seemed to be an issue.
>
> We identified 4 candidates for the Growing a Global Movement and 4
> candidates for Engaging New Communities, and 2 candidates for Social Sector
> Governance.
>
> One of the tangible results for this stage was structuring an emerging
> talent network and gathering a pool of potential candidates, that we can
> reach out to in  future searches.
>
> 2b) Board Governance Committee
>  Board_Governance_Committee>
> (BGC) discussions with candidates
>
> The BGC (as a whole group) did not meet with the candidates. Instead,
> people spoke one on one.
>
> 2c) BGC meets and makes short list (May - June)
>
> We all agreed to reach out to candidates consecutively.We did not want to
> reach out to all of the potential candidates at once, because we do not
> want to incentivize unhealthy competition. If we are talking to someone, we
> are interested. We are not interested in playing people against each other.
>
>
> The BGC prioritized the list, Katherine reached out to them in that order
> to understand if they are interested, and take it from there. If they are
> not interested in working with us, or they do not fit, we shall move to the
> next candidate in the relevant pool.
>
> It turned out to require a lot more time than we planned for this stage: we
> had to wait some time before we could assess genuine commitment and
> interest in the position, so we could schedule further calls. And moving to
> the next candidate seemed justified only after enough time passed between
> our letters of offering this position and the response. This is not
> uncommon.
>
> 2d) Second-round interviews (May - August)
>
> This stage was not conducted as a group interview. Rather, we  organised
> one on one meetings for all voting members of the BGC with the finalists.
>
> The meetings with a candidate from Engaging New Communities took place from
> the end of May till the beginning of August, given the vacation / travel
> times for some of us.
>
> We are still scheduling interviews for our top candidate for Growing a
> Global Movement 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Facebook test features Wikipedia

[Andy Mabbett]

On 5 October 2017 at 21:20, Strainu  wrote:
> 2017-10-05 23:14 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :

>> Sounds good - does anyone know of any screen-shots. or video, showing
>> this in action?
>
> Check out the video in the original announcement that Toby linked to.

I saw that video, but it neither mentions nor shows content from Wikipedia.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Foundation Board Recruitment: Updates

[Nataliia Tymkiv]

Dear all,

Board recruiting has been demanding. We launched our first truly global
search. It was far more work than we expected. But I am glad to say that we
have significantly expanded our talent network and are engaged in
conversation with four, uniquely talented finalists.

We have missed some deadlines given our focus on movement strategy and the
“all fronts” nature of the search for talent at the executive and board
level.

Now, I am able to present you with the new timeline and process, as we
decide among final candidates. We hope they will be able to join the Board
for our November meeting (the original plan was to have them join the Board
for Wikimania 2017).

Below is the last published timeline with comments and explanations at each
stage.

1) Application and referral submission period (January 23 - August)

We asked applicants to apply online:
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Work_with_us#Wikimedia_Careers. We
accepted applications and referrals by email at
board-nominati...@lists.wikimedia.org.

The overview: We decided to start from our own networks and expand outward.
We reached far and wide, proactively, looking in Africa, Latin America,
Asia. In the course of our work, Katherine met a non-profit executive
recruiter. She volunteered to look for us. She delivered many very strong
and exciting candidates from multiple continents, one finalist. Slowly, our
networks then also produced three, very strong finalists as well.

Initially we planned for this stage to be over by March 6 [1], but the
timeline was ambitious  It took us longer to find the right fit. We decided
the right fit is worth the wait. So we extended the deadline to May 6 [2].

It took us longer. The process required more networking.

At the end of May, Katherine was introduced to a non-profit recruiter. They
volunteered to look for us and they sourced a pool of very promising
additional candidates - 23 people with very diverse backgrounds - for the
BGC to evaluate on June 3.

We accepted referrals until August 10. For the record: we should always be
constantly looking for potential candidates, so it would not take so much
time for us in the future.

2) Application and referral review, proactive candidate recruitment, and
interviews (January - ongoing)

2a) Initial application review and screenings (January - August)

This stage was entirely conducted by Wikimedia Foundation staff. By
mid-April Katherine Maher and Anna Stillwell had spoken to 21 people,
either potential candidates themselves or people who could recommend
candidates. We also considered some of our former Trustees. They did not
have capacity, and required travel time seemed to be an issue.

We identified 4 candidates for the Growing a Global Movement and 4
candidates for Engaging New Communities, and 2 candidates for Social Sector
Governance.

One of the tangible results for this stage was structuring an emerging
talent network and gathering a pool of potential candidates, that we can
reach out to in  future searches.

2b) Board Governance Committee

(BGC) discussions with candidates

The BGC (as a whole group) did not meet with the candidates. Instead,
people spoke one on one.

2c) BGC meets and makes short list (May - June)

We all agreed to reach out to candidates consecutively.We did not want to
reach out to all of the potential candidates at once, because we do not
want to incentivize unhealthy competition. If we are talking to someone, we
are interested. We are not interested in playing people against each other.


The BGC prioritized the list, Katherine reached out to them in that order
to understand if they are interested, and take it from there. If they are
not interested in working with us, or they do not fit, we shall move to the
next candidate in the relevant pool.

It turned out to require a lot more time than we planned for this stage: we
had to wait some time before we could assess genuine commitment and
interest in the position, so we could schedule further calls. And moving to
the next candidate seemed justified only after enough time passed between
our letters of offering this position and the response. This is not
uncommon.

2d) Second-round interviews (May - August)

This stage was not conducted as a group interview. Rather, we  organised
one on one meetings for all voting members of the BGC with the finalists.

The meetings with a candidate from Engaging New Communities took place from
the end of May till the beginning of August, given the vacation / travel
times for some of us.

We are still scheduling interviews for our top candidate for Growing a
Global Movement profile.

After the meetings (interviews) with the voting members of the BGC, I wrote
a letter to the Board if there are any “red flags” they find in this
candidacy, and if they do not find any, the BGC recommends running a
background check.

2da) Background check conducted by BGC and Wikimedia 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Facebook test features Wikipedia

[Dan Andreescu]

Couple of scenarios come to mind:

If this succeeds, and is launched more widely, we might have a lot of
preparation to do, and this might not be obvious to Facebook or even to
us.  Facebook has a huge audience and is currently extremely fertile ground
for fake news.  Diverting some of that audience to fact-checking, and
perhaps fake news arguing, on Wikipedia, has the potential to rapidly grow
our editing population.  This is probably a good thing in the long term
but, if it happens, it could be a big challenge in the short term.
Everything from our safety and support teams to our infrastructure
architecture are not set up to scale with rapid editing growth.  I think
some preparatory brainstorming here could be useful.  Just for context, our
editing population is on the order of hundreds of thousands of people on
any given month.  Facebook's news reading population is in the hundreds of
*millions*.  If even 0.1% of them start chatting on our talk pages we would
double our editing traffic.  Think of the way this affects bots, the job
queue, anti-harassment efforts, etc.

On the other hand, if this "fails" from Facebook's point of view, and it's
rolled back, I would hope we stay engaged with them to learn from the
effort.  And I'm sure the communications department is already thinking of
this, but we should prepare for the potential "Facebook finds Wikipedia too
volatile to check facts" or whatever the press decides to do to bait clicks
that day.

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Strainu  wrote:

> [snip]

It's pretty cool indeed, but might put pressure on smaller communities
> whenever extended to other languages.
>
> Strainu
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > ___
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> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Facebook test features Wikipedia

[Strainu]

2017-10-05 23:14 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :
> On 5 October 2017 at 20:54, Toby Negrin  wrote:
>
>> You might have seen that Facebook announced a test of a new feature today
>> that uses English Wikipedia content.[1] The new feature provides more
>> context about the source of news articles users see in their News Feed on
>> Facebook by pulling information about publishers from Wikipedia.
>
> Sounds good - does anyone know of any screen-shots. or video, showing
> this in action?

Check out the video in the original announcement that Toby linked to.

It's pretty cool indeed, but might put pressure on smaller communities
whenever extended to other languages.

Strainu
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Facebook test features Wikipedia

[Andy Mabbett]

On 5 October 2017 at 20:54, Toby Negrin  wrote:

> You might have seen that Facebook announced a test of a new feature today
> that uses English Wikipedia content.[1] The new feature provides more
> context about the source of news articles users see in their News Feed on
> Facebook by pulling information about publishers from Wikipedia.

Sounds good - does anyone know of any screen-shots. or video, showing
this in action?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Defamation of Wikipedia in a Telugu (te) Motion Picture

[Chico Venancio]

I opened devtools here and this is what I could gather,

bywiki.com seems to be a very thin layer over wikimedia itself. The first
calls are to bywiki domain (and seem to be actually cached from wikimedia
servers with some extra added code, including added advertisement with a
bidvertiser script).

Many js scripts make calls directly to wikimedia servers, including scripts
to check for session validity and sessions from other projects. While it
does not seem malicious, I don't trust due to the lack of an explanation
and trademark violation issues.

Their ips seem to be globally blocked, the calls to edit will be seem from
wikimedia servers as coming from them and are (all the times I tested,
blocked).


Chico Venancio

2017-10-05 13:41 GMT-03:00 James Heilman :

> To add to my prior comments, while bywiki.com is very well put
> together there are trademark issues that need to be addressed. Plus
> the log-in setup could confuse Wikipedians into giving away their user
> name and password. I will pass this along to legal and hopefully we
> can get the site to address these issues.
>
> James
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:28 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
> > It is a beautifully done copy of Wikipedia. The history tab, talk
> > pages, and user pages all work and thus appropriate attribution is
> > present. The content is up to date. My IP is blocked so not sure how
> > well editing works.
> >
> > This mirror gives me greater concern https://everipedia.org/ in that
> > they do not provide attribution to the authors of the content.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
> >> On 5 October 2017 at 12:34, Swapnil Karambelkar 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> copy of Hindi
> >>> wikipedia also using WMF logos,etc.it seems to be violating the
> >>> norms,please comment and look into the matter .
> >>>
> >>> https://hi.bywiki.com
> >>
> >> Not just hi.Wikipedia - see, for example, https://en.bywiki.com/wiki/
> Main_Page
> >>
> >> bywiki.com is registered to Chengdu West Dimension Digital Technology
> >> Co., Ltd. with a contact address in China:
> >>
> >>https://www.whois.com/whois/bywiki.com
> >>
> >> This may be a mirror site intended to bypass censorship, but in any
> >> case is a matter for the Wikimedia foundation.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Facebook test features Wikipedia

[Toby Negrin]

Hi all,


You might have seen that Facebook announced a test of a new feature today
that uses English Wikipedia content.[1] The new feature provides more
context about the source of news articles users see in their News Feed on
Facebook by pulling information about publishers from Wikipedia.

We got a heads up about this feature late last week and have been talking
to Facebook since then to better understand how it works.

Here is what we know so far: The feature is an “i” link which Facebook
users can click on to get more context about a news article's source. The
information provided includes Wikipedia content in addition to other
resources. The feature will pull the first three sentences (approximately
300 characters) of an English Wikipedia article about a given news
publication with a link to “continue reading” on Wikipedia, with
attribution to Wikipedia and Creative Commons licensing information. If no
article exists for that news publication, it will note that instead.

The feature will be made available to a limited number of users based in
the United States starting today as a part of their product testing. We
don’t have information on the roll-out plan, which will depend on the
results from the testing.

On a technical basis, this test is utilizing (and regularly updating) XML
dumps to get the Wikipedia content. This does not put as much load on our
servers, but also leaves the content slightly outdated. This is an issue we
are discussing with their technical folks alongside other issues like
content in other languages.

While this new feature did not come from any partnership with a Wikimedia
organization and our open access model means this is something they are
able to do without engaging with us, we appreciate them contacting us
before it went live. We are also always happy to see Wikipedia content
being used to inform more people. We hope to continue to have conversations
with Facebook about the impact of this feature on Wikipedia and will
continue to share relevant updates with Foundation staff and community.

If you haven’t heard about it yet, here is some press:

http://mashable.com/2017/10/05/facebook-wikipedia-context-articles-news-feed/#fvjzBwrtpqqS

https://www.fastcompany.com/40477586/facebook-thinks-the-answer-to-its-fake-news-problems-is-wikipedia

https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/05/facebook-article-information-button/?ncid=rss_source=feedburner_medium=feed_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29

--Toby

[1]
https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2017/10/news-feed-fyi-new-test-to-provide-context-about-articles
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[Wikimedia-l] Community Tech: 2016 Community Wishlist Survey status report

[Danny Horn]

Hi everyone,

We've published a status report on Community Tech's work for the year so
far, based on the 2016 Community Wishlist Survey:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/2016_Community_Wishlist_Surv
ey/Status_report_1

I'll post the quick summary version here; there's lots more information on
the wiki page.

In the top 10...

Completed 5 wishes:

Wish #5: Rewrite XTools -- Live at xtools.wmflabs.org

Wish #6: Wikitext editor syntax highlighting -- Live as Beta feature on
left-to-right
language wikis. We’re still working on right-to-left languages.

Wish #7: Warning on unsuccessful login attempts -- Live on all wikis, see
Preferences/Notifications to change defaults.

Wish #9: Fix Mr. Z-bot's popular pages bot -- Live, see WikiProject
Spiders/Popular pages for an example.

Wish #10: User rights expiration -- Completed by volunteer developer This,
that and the other.

Currently working on 3 wishes:

Wish #2: Edit summary length for non-Latin languages -- MediaWiki Platform
team is deploying the necessary database changes. There are a few more
steps; we expect the wish to be completed by the end of the year.

Wish #3: Section heading URLs for non-Latin languages -- The work has
essentially been completed, but the changes will take a couple months to
propagate across all the pages. We expect to see the first changes in late
October, with everything completed by late November.

Wish #4: Global preferences -- Currently in active development; we expect
this to be completed by the end of the year.

Still investigating 2 wishes:

Wish #1: Global gadgets

Wish #8: Automatic archive for new external links

Projects for smaller groups:

There are also some non-wishlist projects that the Community Tech team has
been working on for smaller groups:

For Wikisource: Internet Archive Upload tool
For grant recipients: Grant metrics tool
For admins and checkusers: Range contributions
For admins: Cookie blocking
For English WP New Pages Patrol: ACTRIAL research, related to Wish #14:
Article Creation Workflow

That's the quick list; check out the status report for information on all
of these projects:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/2016_Community_Wishlist_
Survey/Status_report_1


The 2017 Community Wishlist Survey will start on November 6th! Stay tuned
for more info about the new survey.


Danny Horn & Ryan Kaldari
Senior Product Manager & Senior Engineering Manager
WMF Community Tech
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update - Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)

[James Heilman]

We do have a somewhat successful journal here on Wikiversity
https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/WikiJournal_of_Medicine

The journal provides peer review and people are publishing under their
real names. Could such a journal publish oral histories? Sure why not.
We would just need a group of volunteers interested in pushing the
initiative forwards.

With more engagement maybe the WikiJournals could one day become a
full fledged sister site.

James

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 1:49 AM, Gnangarra  wrote:
> Oral stories do adapt and change over time to suit the circumstances but
> the under lying fact remain consistent as in the case of Ziko's story that
> a King divided his realm amongst his sons thus forming the basis of the
> regions, whether its 5,7,9 or some other figure its still the same. We were
> once one group until an elder, respected, leader created multiple we are
> separate groups yet we are all the same.  This same thing has occurred
> regularly across europe as well even now borders are still shifting.
>
> When recording intangible sources two things must remain consistent, we
> need to record the voice that the story is being spoken for and recognise
> that different voice will tell different stories because they have
> different perspectives, just like "eyewitness" accounts.  The other thing
> is to recognise that when recording these stories we aren't setting them in
> stone creating or selecting a single definitive narrative.
>
>- example:
>https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Bulyit#Oral_Accounts
>
>
> Whether we deal with oral sources within a stand alone project or within
> the specific language wikipedia becomes irrelevant, if we want to include
> Indigenous knowledge we have accept and work with the ways in which that
> particular Indigenous knowledge is shared.
>
> It will be project anyone can edit, because its just like the written
> knowledge we now share and modify, because you have box doesn't mean it has
> to be a cube.
>
> On 5 October 2017 at 15:19, Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:
>
>> I guess for the same reason we never managed to run a successful journal,
>> despite talking about this for about ten years. This project would need to
>> have infrastructure comparable with the infrastructure needed to run an
>> academic publishing house - editors, referees etc, which at this point
>> looks insurmountable. And it will not be a project anyone can edit, which
>> is a new entity in a Wikimedia universe.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Peter Southwood <
>> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I agree that is the current situation, but why should we not have such a
>> > project (in theory - in practice I could list several obstacles, possibly
>> > surmountable)
>> > Cheers,
>> > Peter
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
>> > Behalf Of Yaroslav Blanter
>> > Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 9:54 PM
>> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update -
>> > Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)
>> >
>> > Yes, but if oral tradition is recorded at the academic standard, why
>> > should we be the first publication venue? Usually these people just
>> publish
>> > books in academic publishing houses.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > Yaroslav
>> >
>> > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Peter Southwood <
>> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > There may be a way to do it on another project designed for the
>> > > purpose, but that cannot be English Wikipedia, and I doubt that any
>> > > project that allows anonymous editing could manage it credibly. Oral
>> > > tradition would at least have to be sourced to the teller, and would
>> > > have to be recorded by a reliable and identified recorder, who can be
>> > > held responsible for their due diligence. This would not be an easy
>> > > thing for a crowdsourced project, but anything less would be like a
>> > magnet for everything we don't want.
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Peter
>> > >
>> > > -Original Message-
>> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
>> > > Behalf Of Chandres Wikipedia
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, 04 October 2017 9:25 PM
>> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
>> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update -
>> > > Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)
>> > >
>> > > I do not have a perfect solution to introduce oral traditions in
>> > > Wikipedia today, but I’m convince that we need to find a way to do it.
>> > >
>> > > Just to give you an illustration:
>> > >
>> > > Today ,a significative amount of African topics in the Wikipedia in
>> > > French rely only on the work of only few French historian. Without
>> > > saying they are not honest, I find difficult to consider that there
>> > > words have really so more 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Defamation of Wikipedia in a Telugu (te) Motion Picture

[James Heilman]

To add to my prior comments, while bywiki.com is very well put
together there are trademark issues that need to be addressed. Plus
the log-in setup could confuse Wikipedians into giving away their user
name and password. I will pass this along to legal and hopefully we
can get the site to address these issues.

James

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:28 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
> It is a beautifully done copy of Wikipedia. The history tab, talk
> pages, and user pages all work and thus appropriate attribution is
> present. The content is up to date. My IP is blocked so not sure how
> well editing works.
>
> This mirror gives me greater concern https://everipedia.org/ in that
> they do not provide attribution to the authors of the content.
>
> James
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Andy Mabbett  
> wrote:
>> On 5 October 2017 at 12:34, Swapnil Karambelkar  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> copy of Hindi
>>> wikipedia also using WMF logos,etc.it seems to be violating the
>>> norms,please comment and look into the matter .
>>>
>>> https://hi.bywiki.com
>>
>> Not just hi.Wikipedia - see, for example, 
>> https://en.bywiki.com/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> bywiki.com is registered to Chengdu West Dimension Digital Technology
>> Co., Ltd. with a contact address in China:
>>
>>https://www.whois.com/whois/bywiki.com
>>
>> This may be a mirror site intended to bypass censorship, but in any
>> case is a matter for the Wikimedia foundation.
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
>> 
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian



-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Defamation of Wikipedia in a Telugu (te) Motion Picture

[James Heilman]

It is a beautifully done copy of Wikipedia. The history tab, talk
pages, and user pages all work and thus appropriate attribution is
present. The content is up to date. My IP is blocked so not sure how
well editing works.

This mirror gives me greater concern https://everipedia.org/ in that
they do not provide attribution to the authors of the content.

James

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> On 5 October 2017 at 12:34, Swapnil Karambelkar  wrote:
>
>> copy of Hindi
>> wikipedia also using WMF logos,etc.it seems to be violating the
>> norms,please comment and look into the matter .
>>
>> https://hi.bywiki.com
>
> Not just hi.Wikipedia - see, for example, https://en.bywiki.com/wiki/Main_Page
>
> bywiki.com is registered to Chengdu West Dimension Digital Technology
> Co., Ltd. with a contact address in China:
>
>https://www.whois.com/whois/bywiki.com
>
> This may be a mirror site intended to bypass censorship, but in any
> case is a matter for the Wikimedia foundation.
>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 



-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Defamation of Wikipedia in a Telugu (te) Motion Picture

[Andy Mabbett]

On 5 October 2017 at 12:34, Swapnil Karambelkar  wrote:

> copy of Hindi
> wikipedia also using WMF logos,etc.it seems to be violating the
> norms,please comment and look into the matter .
>
> https://hi.bywiki.com

Not just hi.Wikipedia - see, for example, https://en.bywiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

bywiki.com is registered to Chengdu West Dimension Digital Technology
Co., Ltd. with a contact address in China:

   https://www.whois.com/whois/bywiki.com

This may be a mirror site intended to bypass censorship, but in any
case is a matter for the Wikimedia foundation.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Defamation of Wikipedia in a Telugu (te) Motion Picture

[Swapnil Karambelkar]

Introducing myself, I am Swapnil Karambelkar from Madhya Pradesh,
India. My user name is "Swapnil.Karambelkar", I've been actively
contributing to en Wikipedia and Commons,recently i and our hindi wiki
community came to know about following link which is copy of Hindi
wikipedia also using WMF logos,etc.it seems to be violating the
norms,please comment and look into the matter .

https://hi.bywiki.com

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Arjuna Rao Chavala 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga <
> kcvel...@wikimedia.in> wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Introducing myself, I am Krishna Chaitanya Velaga from Andhra Pradesh,
> > India. My user name is "Krishna Chaitanya Velaga", I've been actively
> > contributing to en Wikipedia and Commons since December 2014. I also form
> > the Executive Committee of Wikimedia Chapter (India). My mother tongue is
> > Telugu (te).
> >
> > A Telugu movie titled Paisa Vasool
> >  was released
> on 1
> > September 2017. In the movie, male lead boasts himself by referring to
> > Wikipedia. His statement in the movie is as follows: *"36 brawls, 24
> > murders, 36 stabbings, This is visible record in Wikipedia" *(The same
> may
> > be observed from the trailer of the movie, between 0:22 to 0:32 at
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVUZ-jG_i3c). As far I am concerned I
> feel
> > this as serious defamation of the brand, the community and the work we
> do.
> > It really degrades the reality and the efforts we put to produce
> > encyclopedic content to the readers.
> >
> > In this context, I request the community to take interest in their to
> voice
> > their opinions, and also discuss any legal action to be enforced.
> >
>
> ​There is some misunderstanding. The character claims he has a record  of
> brawls, murders etc as per Wikipedia. It does not say anything negative
> about Wikipedia.​
>
> Regards
> Arjuna Rao Chavala
> ___
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update - Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)

[Gnangarra]

Oral stories do adapt and change over time to suit the circumstances but
the under lying fact remain consistent as in the case of Ziko's story that
a King divided his realm amongst his sons thus forming the basis of the
regions, whether its 5,7,9 or some other figure its still the same. We were
once one group until an elder, respected, leader created multiple we are
separate groups yet we are all the same.  This same thing has occurred
regularly across europe as well even now borders are still shifting.

When recording intangible sources two things must remain consistent, we
need to record the voice that the story is being spoken for and recognise
that different voice will tell different stories because they have
different perspectives, just like "eyewitness" accounts.  The other thing
is to recognise that when recording these stories we aren't setting them in
stone creating or selecting a single definitive narrative.

   - example:
   https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Bulyit#Oral_Accounts


Whether we deal with oral sources within a stand alone project or within
the specific language wikipedia becomes irrelevant, if we want to include
Indigenous knowledge we have accept and work with the ways in which that
particular Indigenous knowledge is shared.

It will be project anyone can edit, because its just like the written
knowledge we now share and modify, because you have box doesn't mean it has
to be a cube.

On 5 October 2017 at 15:19, Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:

> I guess for the same reason we never managed to run a successful journal,
> despite talking about this for about ten years. This project would need to
> have infrastructure comparable with the infrastructure needed to run an
> academic publishing house - editors, referees etc, which at this point
> looks insurmountable. And it will not be a project anyone can edit, which
> is a new entity in a Wikimedia universe.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > I agree that is the current situation, but why should we not have such a
> > project (in theory - in practice I could list several obstacles, possibly
> > surmountable)
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Yaroslav Blanter
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 9:54 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update -
> > Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)
> >
> > Yes, but if oral tradition is recorded at the academic standard, why
> > should we be the first publication venue? Usually these people just
> publish
> > books in academic publishing houses.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > There may be a way to do it on another project designed for the
> > > purpose, but that cannot be English Wikipedia, and I doubt that any
> > > project that allows anonymous editing could manage it credibly. Oral
> > > tradition would at least have to be sourced to the teller, and would
> > > have to be recorded by a reliable and identified recorder, who can be
> > > held responsible for their due diligence. This would not be an easy
> > > thing for a crowdsourced project, but anything less would be like a
> > magnet for everything we don't want.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Chandres Wikipedia
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 04 October 2017 9:25 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update -
> > > Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)
> > >
> > > I do not have a perfect solution to introduce oral traditions in
> > > Wikipedia today, but I’m convince that we need to find a way to do it.
> > >
> > > Just to give you an illustration:
> > >
> > > Today ,a significative amount of African topics in the Wikipedia in
> > > French rely only on the work of only few French historian. Without
> > > saying they are not honest, I find difficult to consider that there
> > > words have really so more value than the words of the Ancient of the
> > African tribes.
> > >
> > > We know for sure than oral tradition will include bias, but do not
> > > forget that the «  traditional western historian work » are not exempt
> > of bias too.
> > >
> > > Charles
> > >
> > > PS: IMHO, I find offensive the way you define oral traditions, but it
> > > may be caused by a misconception from my part.
> > >
> > > These are the definition I use for urban legend and oral tradition,
> > > very different each other I think.
> > > urban  legend <
> > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/legend#English> (plural 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update - Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)

[Yaroslav Blanter]

I guess for the same reason we never managed to run a successful journal,
despite talking about this for about ten years. This project would need to
have infrastructure comparable with the infrastructure needed to run an
academic publishing house - editors, referees etc, which at this point
looks insurmountable. And it will not be a project anyone can edit, which
is a new entity in a Wikimedia universe.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> I agree that is the current situation, but why should we not have such a
> project (in theory - in practice I could list several obstacles, possibly
> surmountable)
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Yaroslav Blanter
> Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 9:54 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update -
> Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)
>
> Yes, but if oral tradition is recorded at the academic standard, why
> should we be the first publication venue? Usually these people just publish
> books in academic publishing houses.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > There may be a way to do it on another project designed for the
> > purpose, but that cannot be English Wikipedia, and I doubt that any
> > project that allows anonymous editing could manage it credibly. Oral
> > tradition would at least have to be sourced to the teller, and would
> > have to be recorded by a reliable and identified recorder, who can be
> > held responsible for their due diligence. This would not be an easy
> > thing for a crowdsourced project, but anything less would be like a
> magnet for everything we don't want.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Chandres Wikipedia
> > Sent: Wednesday, 04 October 2017 9:25 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update -
> > Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)
> >
> > I do not have a perfect solution to introduce oral traditions in
> > Wikipedia today, but I’m convince that we need to find a way to do it.
> >
> > Just to give you an illustration:
> >
> > Today ,a significative amount of African topics in the Wikipedia in
> > French rely only on the work of only few French historian. Without
> > saying they are not honest, I find difficult to consider that there
> > words have really so more value than the words of the Ancient of the
> African tribes.
> >
> > We know for sure than oral tradition will include bias, but do not
> > forget that the «  traditional western historian work » are not exempt
> of bias too.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> > PS: IMHO, I find offensive the way you define oral traditions, but it
> > may be caused by a misconception from my part.
> >
> > These are the definition I use for urban legend and oral tradition,
> > very different each other I think.
> > urban  legend <
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/legend#English> (plural urban legends <
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urban_legends#English>)
> > A widely circulated story  that
> > is untrue  or apocryphal <
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apocryphal>, often having elements of
> > humour  or horror <
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horror>.
> > oral  tradition <
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tradition#English> (countable <
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#countable> and
> > uncountable
> > ,
> > plural oral traditions  > wiki/oral_traditions#English>)
> > Cultural  material transmitted
> > < https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transmit> orally from one generation
> > < https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/generation> to another.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Le 4 oct. 2017 à 21:11, Yaroslav Blanter  a écrit :
> > >
> > > You might be right, and the goal is indeed to differentiate between
> > > them. I just do not see how it could be implemented in practice. A
> > > legend is a legend, be it urban or not.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Yaroslav
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:09 PM, Chandres Wikipedia
> > > 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>> to Wikipedia. They might still be a separate WMF project, which is
> > >>> likely to be problematic (since it is really difficult to
> > >>> differentiate between say folk tales and the oral traditions which
> > >>> state that Earth is 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update - Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)

[Peter Southwood]

I agree that is the current situation, but why should we not have such a 
project (in theory - in practice I could list several obstacles, possibly 
surmountable)
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Yaroslav Blanter
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 9:54 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update - Final 
draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)

Yes, but if oral tradition is recorded at the academic standard, why should we 
be the first publication venue? Usually these people just publish books in 
academic publishing houses.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Peter Southwood < peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> 
wrote:

> There may be a way to do it on another project designed for the 
> purpose, but that cannot be English Wikipedia, and I doubt that any 
> project that allows anonymous editing could manage it credibly. Oral 
> tradition would at least have to be sourced to the teller, and would 
> have to be recorded by a reliable and identified recorder, who can be 
> held responsible for their due diligence. This would not be an easy 
> thing for a crowdsourced project, but anything less would be like a magnet 
> for everything we don't want.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On 
> Behalf Of Chandres Wikipedia
> Sent: Wednesday, 04 October 2017 9:25 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Strategy] September 28: Strategy update - 
> Final draft of movement direction and endorsement process (#25)
>
> I do not have a perfect solution to introduce oral traditions in 
> Wikipedia today, but I’m convince that we need to find a way to do it.
>
> Just to give you an illustration:
>
> Today ,a significative amount of African topics in the Wikipedia in 
> French rely only on the work of only few French historian. Without 
> saying they are not honest, I find difficult to consider that there 
> words have really so more value than the words of the Ancient of the African 
> tribes.
>
> We know for sure than oral tradition will include bias, but do not 
> forget that the «  traditional western historian work » are not exempt of 
> bias too.
>
> Charles
>
> PS: IMHO, I find offensive the way you define oral traditions, but it 
> may be caused by a misconception from my part.
>
> These are the definition I use for urban legend and oral tradition, 
> very different each other I think.
> urban  legend < 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/legend#English> (plural urban legends <
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urban_legends#English>)
> A widely circulated story  that 
> is untrue  or apocryphal < 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apocryphal>, often having elements of 
> humour  or horror < 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horror>.
> oral  tradition < 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tradition#English> (countable < 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#countable> and 
> uncountable 
> ,
> plural oral traditions  wiki/oral_traditions#English>)
> Cultural  material transmitted 
> < https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transmit> orally from one generation 
> < https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/generation> to another.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Le 4 oct. 2017 à 21:11, Yaroslav Blanter  a écrit :
> >
> > You might be right, and the goal is indeed to differentiate between 
> > them. I just do not see how it could be implemented in practice. A 
> > legend is a legend, be it urban or not.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:09 PM, Chandres Wikipedia 
> > 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> to Wikipedia. They might still be a separate WMF project, which is 
> >>> likely to be problematic (since it is really difficult to 
> >>> differentiate between say folk tales and the oral traditions which 
> >>> state that Earth is flat and that all US presidents report to the 
> >>> Zionist Occupational Government),
> >> but
> >>>
> >>
> >> For me, your definition of oral tradition is the one of « urban 
> >> legend
> ».
> >> TO my understanding, oral tradition refer to culture where the 
> >> History of the tribes/nation/people is transmit only by a spoken 
> >> way and never put on paper.  Am I wrong?
> >>
> >> charles
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: 
>