[WISPA] Cajun WISP Night before Christmas
Cajun WISP Night before Christmas 'Twas de night before Christmas An' all t'ru de NOC, Dey don't a bit pass Except fro' the BOC. De cable been nezzle All snug on de flo', While hackers been wrestle for cracks in de do'. Dare nothin' indy firewall to keep out St. Nick, Cause he's out to own ya'll An' he knows all de trick! Den out on de rooftop Dey got such a clatter, Make soun' like old Boudreau Done fall off de ladder. I run like a possum To got to de do', Trip over some co-axe An' fall on de flo'! As I look out de do' In de light o' de moon, I t'ink "Man, you crazy I t'aught it was noon!" An' dere above de treetop When I stretch out ma' head, Dere's eight big alligator A pullin' a Rohn sled! An' a short fat Cajun Wit a long tripod stick, I know r'at way Got to be ole St. Nick. Mo' fas'er an' fas'er De gater dey came He whistle an' holler An' call dem by name: "Ha, Ping! Ha, Linus! Ha, Tracerut an' Gun-new Gee, Snoop Gee, Tee Cee Pee Dump an'Ace-cee-el too!" To the top o' de roof I yells to Boudreau, "Haul ass down the ladder, St. Nick is our foe! Like Taint Suzie's cat Down the ladder he fly Boudreau didn't stop Come a run hisse'f by. But up on the rooftop Dem ole 'gater dey climb Wit a rack full of gear An' St. Nicklus behin'. Up go his tripod and mast Po'nted North it would seem, Dat deres a long shot - Must be a tight beam! Den on top o' de roof The mast, hard done it sway, Some Ballast was needed in de worst kinda way. De gaters make dem idea An' it soun' like de hail, W'en all dem 'gater Done sot down dey big tail. Den down in de NOC I sot down at my PC, St. Nick got association Wit' radio t'ree! "Sacre!" I axclaim "Ma network got a hole! I t'ink to ma'se'f it cannot be, no Ole Boudreau's a Mole? St. Nick spoofin' IP, An' hide like a cat While 'gaters chew co-axe leavin' ma users dead flat. He was usin' linux Dat was fo' sure, I pinged his network int'face, while he was takin' de tour. I hacked ma way in t'ru a hole in his bot, Tee el cee sot wide open So I take a few shot. His eyes how dey shined his dimples how scarry! While I fo'matted his drive He could execute no q'arry. Ha! His cheek was like rose His nose like cherry On secon' t'ought maybe He commit harry carry! Den I peek t'ru de window An' what do I see, St. Nick a sittin' dere Staring down r'at at me! But a wink in his eye An'a shook 'o his head Make my confi-dence dat I don' got to be scared. He don' do no talkin' But smiled at my work. Gave me a wink, An' den turn wit' a jerk. Den he hop on his sled, Wit de gear off o' de roof. He ain't no fool, him! For to make no more big goof. He jump in his sled, And crack his big whip. De 'gater fly off, An' don' make one dip. An' I hear him shout loud While runnin' tail he go, "Merry Christmas to All, 'Til I hack you some mo!" WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?
At 09:39 AM 9/15/2007, chris cooper wrote: Id be interested to see how they worked with high gain directional antennas. With the proper antennas you could pick up some penetration, help pick through noise and change polarities. Anybody used the Meraki boxes this way? Please follow my train of thought for a second. When using directional antennas, then a bit of aiming is required right?. But the benefits are as you say. Now such antennas need to be mounted right? So this is a "fixed wireless mesh" we are talking here, not a mobile mesh with antennas in motion. What makes this possible is "multiple radio systems" (3, 4, even 5 radios). So given all this, how would Meraki provide anything that say Mikrotik couldn't do? Choose paths? There isn't much to choose when using directional antennas on each end (PtP) You know what's there already, one radio, the other end of the link. So it is just a matter of switching interfaces to a second interface when the best interface goes down (if ever). OSPF is pretty good at that. Not arguing, just curious about all that. Also I'm brainstorming possible configurations with an omni on one end and a directional on the other. I need a couple of good cheap directional 900MHz antennas for some testing. I have two omni's already and wasn't too impressed going omni to omni. Signal started to drop off after about a quarter mile or so, and that isn't going to cut it. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?
At 10:24 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote: Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol that is optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called wireless mesh networks. It is a proactive link-state routing protocol that floods a full topology table to all nodes in the network which then compute optimal forwarding paths locally First I've never used OLSR so I know little about it. However the key words here is "mobile" and "ad-hoc". In the 900 "mesh" application I'm dreaming of, similar to muni-wifi, the nodes aren't mobile, nor are they "ad-hoc". The nodes are fixed to poles and buildings, and the nodes are infrastructure just like we always used. Also I don't plan on using any single radio systems requiring locustworld, etc. Lets say a node can see two upstream nodes and two downstream nodes. And then lets say one of the upstream nodes fails. Not much thought needs to be given as to which is the most Optimal route to take. i.e. The only other one. Now for a zillion laptops floating around all over the place forming an adhoc network, with nodes coming and going in a dynamic fashion, yeah I'm sure a specialized wireless mesh protocol is necessary such as locustworld, et al.. I believe somewhere around 30 or more mesh wireless (mobile) mesh protocols have been developed over the years each with it's own pros and cons. I'm not thinking about anything mobile unless it is the users laptop roaming around his house and yard. In that case, I don't think I need a "mesh" protocol at all, or anything other than common interior routing gateway protocols. Am I right? I wonder what Strix uses in their multi-radio systems? Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?
Exactly my point George. I don'/t... Allen At 09:16 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote: Allen Marsalis wrote: I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or OSPF. OSLR -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?
At 04:01 PM 9/14/2007, Japhy Bartlett wrote: How come nobody seems to be using it? The first Locustworld/meshbox/ultramesh deployment in the US was around 2000 a few dozen miles north of me in Vivian LA, (Fastline?) I met with the owner last year. Basically he was an WISP worth about $20-30k with debt of about $100k+ I really hated to see that.. The thing about "mesh" is this. If all nodes are stationary that is one thing. (Muni-wifi nodes on lightpoles for example) If all nodes are roaming/moving that is entirely another matter. I am beginning to believe that no "mesh" (TCP/IP stack) is required if all notes are stationary like NOC's and NAP's and Telco Hotels on the Internet are stationary yet meshed using BGP (without locustworld or meraki)... Roaming in an entirely different matter. But meshes come often hand in hand with roaming which is too much to swallow all at once if you ask me. If it was easy to provide a multi-MBPS service with roaming cellphone technology, (roaming) they would have done it by now. EVDO sucks in my town. Faster than 1xRTT but still very intermittent with dropped connections. Imagine a fire truck racing across town roaming from WIFI AP to AP without braking his TCP/IP socket. That is true mesh. Many "mesh" protocols and/or solutions don't address this issue of roaming across subnets which can be a TCP/IP nightmare on very large networks such as muni wifi networks. Building a network that cannot scale in size is like building a time bomb, or at the very least, painting yourself into a corner. My point? I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or OSPF. If your nodes move, then I gotcha, Use Meraki or whatever mesh protocol works.. Otherwise, what exactly is your problem with OSPF? I'm just trying to learn more about meshing, and my comments are JMHO... Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
At 03:38 PM 9/13/2007, Brad Belton wrote: Yes, I remember Jack always speaking very highly of Jay Wright. I never met Jay, but I hear he can sell ice to an Eskimo...a real slick Willy if you know what I mean. Did you have much contact with Jack or Jay? I negotiated the sale of my company directly with Jay. So yes. Jack was my boss. So yes again. However I never met Jay before the sale, and I only met Jay one time for an hour or two after the sale. LOL, maybe I'm the "slick willy". Yep he wired a million dollars to my attorney to buy me without ever meeting me face-to-face or laying eyes on my company. Jack did come by once or twice before hand though to check me out. The whole experience was very strange due to the lack of due diligence before the sale and other oddities... Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
At 03:30 PM 9/13/2007, Joel White wrote: Jack was also a consultant for Kite and was tasked with "solving the CPE problem" of the "no CPE needed" Muni-Wifi deployments. LMAO, now Joel, out of respect for Brad I will not comment further on Beech on these boards. Brad drove out of his way to loan me a AP one time, and not everyone does that. Besides, I think the CEO and CFO had more to do with this plan, whatever it was. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
At 10:28 AM 9/13/2007, Patrick Leary wrote: ...And by the way Allen, whatever the route you took to get back, I am just glad you are. As I said before, you were missed. You were, are, and always will be one of the good guys. One day many of us should hit the porch with some scotch, a good laptop and good wireless connection :) and write a book. Patrick your thoughtful post means a lot to me. Count me in! (I have piles of notes) I always wanted to write a book with someone like Steve or yourself, you knowto raise the overall caliper of the book. ;-) LOL. You know something.. While I was laying on my back in the dentists chair yesterday staring at the ceiling while getting a root canal, there were a few posters stapled to the ceiling to give patients something to look at. One of the posters struck me pretty hard. It showed a litter of cute puppies.. Above the picture it reads: "Eat Well, Live Well, Play Well, Be Well, Sleep Well, Love Well No where in there did it say "Get Rich or Die Trying: Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
At 10:21 AM 9/13/2007, Patrick Leary wrote: Your tale is certainly a cautionary one. My advice to WISPs is that if you are trying to exit via a sale of the company you built with your blood, sweat, tears and personal dollars ONLY sell for cash. Here is an additional cautionary thought FWIW. I always had a great reputation and so did my company. After I left, ShreveNet quickly went from being the best to the worse ISP in town. The employees scattered to the wind, but I'm still here. I thought it would be easy to start a new business however people do not forget and forgive so easily. I even had one ex-customer jokingly call me a traitor years later! You guys were the best! Why did you sell out!? I think my future customers will always wonder if I am going to sell them out again, which is always a possibility. But I'm no quitter! I outlasted a lot of Internet companies and upstream providers like uu.net Worldcom, Global Crossing, etc. Anyway the moral of this lesson is do not sell out and expect to keep your career unscathed. I would not sell my entire company again unless it was enough to retire on. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
At 01:04 PM 9/13/2007, Brad Belton wrote: Sorry for the confusion. No Jack Beech is my brother's (Jack Belton) brother-in-law. Ah, yeah now I remember you telling me that years ago. I do appreciate you refreshing my memory. Jack Beech was somehow friends of the CEO (Jay Wright) and after he no longer ran the ISP's, he moved over to the Progames website division. But I'm not sure there was anything Jack could have done to save the day considering the Cornell financing deals, and ridiculous salaries, bonuses, and so forth. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
At 11:03 AM 9/13/2007, Brad Belton wrote: Thanks for taking the time to touch on some of your experiences with MobilePro. As you know my interest is because Jack Beech is my brother, Jack Belton, brother-in-law. Am I reading this right? Jack Beech is your brother? Your last name is Belton so do you mean that Jack Belton is your brother and Jack Beech is your brother-in-law? Sorry for my confusion. And thanks for the clarification. I've got to run, but I'll pick back up later. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
At 10:21 AM 9/13/2007, Patrick Leary wrote: Anyway, after BreezeCOM Bruce went on looking for the Next Big Thing, first trying to lead the old Wave Wireless out of Sarasota, FL. That did not go so well and he went on to start-up a new chip company. That went south and the next I heard was that he had joined MobilePRO. I think he did that for only about a year, then left that too. I have no idea what he is up to now. Yeah me neither. But it is interesting to note that MobilePro's CEO (Jay Wright) was also at Wave Wireless (Speedcom) with Bruce back during that time functioning as their CFO. The "good ole boys network" was alive and well. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
Patrick, thanks for the follow up. True, I am very fortunate and lucky indeed. I did not loose any money with my shares and not all the ISP's can say that. Some were only able to sell MOBL after it fell into the teens or lower. I still have a beautiful wife and two healthy/smart kids. And my Dad. Friends that wish to help. And a crazy new community website software package that I created and don't know what to do with! :) Allen At 10:21 AM 9/13/2007, Patrick Leary wrote: Quite a story Allen. I am aware of some minor parts of the MobilePRO saga. Bruce Sanquinetti was the former president of the U.S. subsidiary of BreezeCOM. He left BreezeCOM the same week I joined in August of 1999. He was a pretty mercurial guy from what I gathered by those that had worked with him. I am glad he left (or was asked to leave, I don't know which), because the corporate culture I have always worked under and tried to foster is a much different type and Lord knows I don't do well with autocrats -- I am, er, a bit too opinionated. I am now into my 9th year. Anyway, after BreezeCOM Bruce went on looking for the Next Big Thing, first trying to lead the old Wave Wireless out of Sarasota, FL. That did not go so well and he went on to start-up a new chip company. That went south and the next I heard was that he had joined MobilePRO. I think he did that for only about a year, then left that too. I have no idea what he is up to now. Your tale is certainly a cautionary one. My advice to WISPs is that if you are trying to exit via a sale of the company you built with your blood, sweat, tears and personal dollars ONLY sell for cash. Fortunately Allen you did get 1/2 in cash and you were smart enough to sell your shares as soon as you could. Patrick ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 12:13 AM 9/13/2007, Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, The biggest problem I see when looking at mesh is having access to all those locations... people's homes, light poles, telephone poles, whatever. You now have to install UPS systems, rebooters, have the equipment some-what secure, etc. Bingo, I didn't say anything early on, but you hit the nail Travis. The biggest problem I see is the un-even-ness of property ownership in my plan (rural tier 4 areas). Fortunately as you move into a town, pieces of land keep getting smaller and smaller. My only solution is to deviate from the use of omni antennas towards directional antennas to increase the distance between nodes from 1 mile to maybe 2 to 4 miles between nodes. But here are some very loose number regarding muni wifi. By comparison to my plan, imagine 15 to 20 nodes per square mile at $2500 to $3500 per node. Usinging standards based (generic) hardware I think I can reduce that cost to under $900 per node. Now imagine if a 900MHz AP with omni works to 1 mile radius, or 2 miles circumference. This is nearly 4 square miles of coverage for under $1k. (less than $250 per square mile). This is almost like averaging between the economics of "fixed wireless" and "muni wifi" networks. But in my areas, that might lead to 4X success rates in site surveys..\ Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Legal Charges used in Malicious Interference Situations
At 08:49 PM 9/12/2007, Mac Dearman wrote: We (all the WISP's) have a pact in N. Louisiana - - no one buys Canopy! Wrong!! See www.bluebirdwireless.com... NW is now polluted thanks to motos sales team infecting our 911 center and recruiting their employees to quit and join the private sector. (blue bird wireless) Which BTW is the nations largest "prepay: provider located a mile from me. And ironically is MobilePro's closest competition... Or was... LOL BTW, I owe you a steak Mac. If you ever make it to Shreveport, I will name the place. You won't be sorry. Mac you are one hellova guy and I will never forget camp sagnasty God Bless. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 06:11 PM 9/12/2007, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the network starts to come alive. The old hub and spoke method works best. But the entire Internet is a Mesh of sorts. Remember back in the 90's how the "internet" was designed to withstand a nuclear attack? (using lots of hub and spoke and routing for redundancy) My old friend, lets cut through the "image" of mesh. What "mesh" is in my opinion is the elimination of tall vertical realestate (expensive) and the adoption of low vertical realestate (free) such as lightpoles and rooftops. Mesh means routing rather than bridging. Instead of shooting high for big supercells, mesh is a series of microcells or picocells down low (cheap). Instead of dumping money into towers and tower climbers (sorry Bob my friend) mesh is made of equipment in a non-special environment. Now you might think that mesh means use of omni antennas... Not so. maybe, maybe not. To me mesh means communication between multiple nodes (places) that are connected to each other in a web (like the Internet) Strix is on th right track. But like so many manufacturers, they are better at shipping gear than designing business plans for others to invest in (like MobilePro). But I do not believe in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Strix had something (before they laid off half their staff this month). They chose folks like MOBL to cater to rather than you or me. I believe there is a market for 900 rural mesh "sub-muni networks". Am I wrong? Allen Allen Some of the new "mesh" gear uses different channels for broadcast vs. backhaul. But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and spoke stuffed into a single box. I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep. Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops. In the population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi. Good speeds, cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc. It's good to see ya back. This biz is like a good drug isn't it. Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away. grin Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Allen Marsalis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm thinking about creeping back into the WISP business. After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press called "muni wireless" promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month: <http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html>http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/ <http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10&view=news>http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10&view=news http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault <http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.html>http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn).. <http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/>http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/ I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks. However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially after witnessing the old Nokia "collapsible" bridged mesh networks of the 90s. LOL, a lot has changed since then. I often wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out. Once upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh network
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 10:44 AM 9/12/2007, D. Ryan Spott wrote: and like a typical dot-com they spent and expanded far faster than they should have 'cause hey, there's a second round coming and when they went looking for that second round, the large investor played their strategy and said no second round for you! Ryan for some reason this post resonates within me like a church bell. "like a typical dot-com" Happy Customers don't mean much. Never have. It's Happy Shareholders (investors) is where the money is. Sorry if I'm a bit cynical or jaded Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 06:35 PM 9/12/2007, Gino Villarini wrote: Using dif radios for wifi and backhaul isn't mesh any more? How so? I was under the impression that "mesh" was the ability of the equipment to form a interconnection between the nodes with alternative paths to the Internet feed I hate to be a pain.Marlon got me started in this industry. He is a true wireless pioneer, not I. But we have our differences... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_network I'm sure our definitions and connotations of "wireless mesh" differ, and rightfully so. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] The MOBL Sage (Warning: Long Post)
Hello Allen, Good to see you back and doing well. Curious to hear your take on the MobilePro saga. On or off list is good with me. The Friends Quite a few people have asked me (A) what have I been doing lately? And (B) please tell me the MobilePro saga. It means a lot to me that some of you have asked about me. It has hit me that although only have a handful of friends here in town, I did have 100+ friends in this industry! Thank you all for your kind thoughts and I do apologize for dropping off the planet like I did. That was my loss more than anyone else's. You are some of the finest people I have ever met in my life, besides my old ShreveNet staff. You know how I felt about my crew. Heck, you all helped me train them! ;) The Saga I will start with the MobilePro Saga and get it out of the way and move on to more positive things like the goodthings I have been up to in the past year or two. I tell you The Saga not as an excuse for my hiatus from the wireless industry, and excuse for my strange behavior, but well .(get it? Well, thats a deep subject, LOL) well ..because some of you asked me too (cough cough Brad Belton cough cough). Here goes.. It is somewhat of an interesting story I guess, for inside industry people like us, or else this might be extremely Off Topic for this list. As a WISP, this is not as easy story for me to tell. Not a happy story for me. I would like to tell the story and forget as much as possible and move on. Perhaps there is something that you can learn from this (yeah like Allen is not so smart after all? (Maybe and maybe not, you decide) The Disclaimer It has been over 3 years since the sale of my (W)ISP to MobilePro. I am no longer under any agreement or obligation. I am now entitled to express my opinion right or wrong. This is my opinion and only my opinion. The Beginning Roll the clock back to 2004. Life is pretty good. Speaking at WISPCON. Drinking Romulan Ale with some of the finest people on the planet. (now argue that point) Why on earth would I want to sell my company? The WISP of my dreams? Whatsup wit dat? There were a whole host of reasons for selling out and many of which were personal some were reasonable, and some might have been downright psychotic. Here are some of the reasons I had for selling, just in case any of you ever consider selling yourself. That might be one of the most difficult decisions you ever make. Choose wisely! (A) I was not a pureplay. We offered wireless, DSL, dialup, T1, hosting, web design, hotspots, you name it, I tried it all. My problems began as I began to take a beating on dialup amid new competition with cablemodem and several DSL carriers. I was bleeding revenues about 1% of month despite growth in broadband areas (DSL, wireless and T1) But I was all over the Northern state. Not much DSL and T1 out there in the boonies. And wireless was relatively a new trick for everyone back in those days. I was debt free until 1999 when I acquired the second largest ISP in the area (I was the largest). With this new debt, I borrowed even more to host all these new customers. (The old ISP was using crap) I got a good interest rate with the bank and with my father, both who backed me. LOL, then we REALLY started growing fast! (mainly dialup) So much of this debt was the result of left over baggage from the dial days plus the acquisition days and subsequent growth days. I began looking into my crystal ball and began to worry seeing an ever changing future in broadband. (especially wireless) Would I ever get this debt paid off in time before I must prepare for the next round of change? Then bang, my father came down with melanoma cancer in his lungs. This was right after Matt Larsens Dad died. My Dad already had prostate cancer and basil cell carcinoma. (3 types total) at this time (04) My doctor told me he probably wouldnt see his next birthday. He was 84 at the time. I wanted to pay off my Dad before he passed away. That was a major factor. It was important to me that he be proud of his remaining only son. The First Lesson All Doctors arent always right. My father found some new doctors with new ideas and had 3 very targeted lung surgeries (1 per year) and is doing remarkably well now for an 87 year old man. I am very proud of him. He is one tough old bird and just like the energizer bunny, he keeps going and going and going. He still drives to his office every day for a few hours every day. Im on the 5th floor and he is on the 11th floor, still at 333 Texas all these many years. (He longer than I) Also a part of this lesson is to use various domain names for unique services. That way you can sell part and not all of a property. (as needed) More Reasons Around that time I suddenly had a bad back. I didnt know what was wrong with my back. Lookin
Re: [WISPA] IP Assignments
At 02:24 PM 9/12/2007, Mike Hammett wrote: I'm not sure when it was changed, but you need one less bit of address space to get your own, direct allocation. http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four222 You now only need two /24s to request your own /22 from Arin. Yeah but will everyone route a /22?? I am no routing guru but in the old days, you had to have a /19 for sprint to route it for instance. I bought a /20 a couple of years later and had no problems out of Sprint or anyone. Perhaps today's routers have so much memory, the BGP views fit with no problem. I remember back when 64M would do the job. Then 256M, etc. But its news to be if a /22 is fully accepted in all router tables. Wow only here for a couple of days and learning stuff already. :) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 08:21 AM 9/11/2007, Jeff Broadwick wrote: Nah, he uses it to hide the Romulan Ale when he goes to movies and ball games. :-) LOL, I haven't had any Romulan Ale in a while. I needed a laugh. Remember this one? "I used to have a life, now I have customers" I might add, "Now I have no customers, so when do I get my life back?" :) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
For my daughter as a night shirt. Anytime I receive an XL, I give to her. If its a medium, then I get to keep it! Allen At 07:12 AM 9/11/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: XXL What are you going to do with it?? Make a tent :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Allen Marsalis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:30:01 To:WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks I was only about a half year off. Not bad for an old man. :) I'm not sure I remember your youngest though. A belated congratulations to you! I know you are proud of them both. My son is now a freshman in high school and has outgrown me already. Homecoming is this Saturday. Wow how time flies. My daughter is 9 and in a few more years, she might be taller than me as well.. Yeah got one of those old BreezeCom shirts in XXL? That is, if they aren't collectors items by now... ;) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
I was only about a half year off. Not bad for an old man. :) I'm not sure I remember your youngest though. A belated congratulations to you! I know you are proud of them both. My son is now a freshman in high school and has outgrown me already. Homecoming is this Saturday. Wow how time flies. My daughter is 9 and in a few more years, she might be taller than me as well.. Yeah got one of those old BreezeCom shirts in XXL? That is, if they aren't collectors items by now... ;) Allen At 08:32 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote: LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :) And I have plenty of old BreezeCOM shirts still. Patrick ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
I'm proud to say no Canopy shirts in this house Gino! I can't afford them. (major ducking) :) Allen At 08:35 PM 9/10/2007, Gino Villarini wrote: I'll bet they prefer the Motorola Canopy T-shirts! ;-) ... ducking! ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 06:37 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote: Allen, great to see you pop up on the list again. You've been missed. Thanks Patrick. I trust all is going well with you. I hear you are now vice president. Great job! (I mean that both ways. You do a great job and have a great job) :) Our kids are all growing up! Your daughter must be what about 7 now. Am I close? Mine is 9 and still wears her oversized Mikrotik and Trango T-shirts! :ducking: LOL, She's still waiting for her Breezecom t-shirt.. ;) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 05:12 PM 9/10/2007, you wrote: Allen: Metricom's long out of business, but technologically, they made it work (albeit at ~28 Kbps, and later ~128 Kbps). One of the key things they did to make it work at 902-928 MHz is to use FHSS and small channel sizes rather than fixed, wide channels as all the current 902-928 MHz BWIA gear (except Alvarion's BreezeNet [?]. I clearly see your point as an old FHSS guy. hehehe LOL, between you and me, I would never have waxed so philosophically over this idea had it not been for the muni-wifi movement with its limited non-overlapping channels. Multiple radio systems got me interested in meshing a while back. I guess I'm not the only one, but my market is definitely not city wifi like Strix. The earlier version did both mesh and access using 902-928 MHz. The newer version used 2.3 and 2.4 GHz for the mesh (backhaul) and 902-928 MHz for access only. Gotcha, many thanks for responding to me Steve. I think there is something to be learned under every new stone, and even some old stones long forgotten my most... I barely remember Metricom and "packet radio". Hmmm I just saw a HughesNet commercial. The one with the pretty lady in a green dress. I assume GEO satellite service still stinks to high heaven?? I nearly forgot about those guys... I once knew Avi Freedman when he was into some satellite stuff and learned enough not to be too scared of the sat guys who have their own unique set of expensive problems. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 04:00 PM 9/10/2007, John Valenti wrote: Allen, It sounds as if you might be proposing this for a suburban or even tree filled urban environment. One problem you might run into is clear spectrum in 900MHz. I've use Trango gear out in rural areas, where it works OK. I've only done a few scans in the city (East Lansing and Lansing, specifically). Both of those scans were so depressing I never tried making any links with 900 in town. All the channels were what the Trango manual calls "unsuitable". Point noted. My testing thus far has been at my house which is in an remote community a couple miles outside of town. Results may and probably will vary and I get closer to town, but I'm not wanting to compete with cable or DSL. I was hoping to find some still under served small towns that would appreciate my services.. I have a few of the SR9 cards and am just starting to work with them. I read somewhere that Trango (for example) rejects interference better than the SR9. No personal experience one way or another yet. I saw were Ubiquiti has cavity filters but I have no idea what they cost or how well they work. I had one Trango 900 POP years ago and it worked well. But 6 sectors ain't happening. (I had only a few customers off one sector) But I'm really thinking in terms of multiple radio systems (SBC's) for a number of reasons. My new rule of thumb with Trango is that I can go 2 miles. I recall a little bit better for me. But the spectrum may have been really clear. I didn't have a 900MHz option for my cheap spectrum analyzer. I sold my company not long after hanging that gear. You might consider a modified mesh structure that uses 2.4 or 5GHz (or even 900 after testing) to those few LOS houses, then something like Meraki mesh to connect close neighbors. Nodding, I have thought in terms of large outter mesh with an inner micro mesh structure that isn't intended to go very deep (lots of hops) But out in the boonies, I'm not sure 2.4/5.8 is going to get me very far when houses might be a quarter or half mile apart. (or more) If I did have a tower in the area, perhaps "breaks" in the mesh could be "patched" with a new "homerun" shot if you follow me. Thanks for the feedback Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Thanks George. Sounds like wise advice to me considering all the things happening within the industry in recent years. Google is petitioning the FCC for nationwide prime spectrum? I'm short a few billion it seems.. Even if my idea is technically doable, then I must go find the right markets which is a challenge all in itself. I sometimes see data centers and there aren't many dialup customers left and lots of empty modems. How Netzero can still afford to run ads I do not know. Allen At 03:23 PM 9/10/2007, George Rogato wrote: I'm glad your still around the industry Allen, every one in a while someone says, Where's Allen M? Makes us wonder. Myself, I would only look at 900 as a temporary frequency to use. Maybe a couple years, more in the very rural areas and less urban wise. Too many others are using 900 or starting to use it. Electric and water companies for meter reading, walmart and other bigbox for id and our portable phones still use 900 even when their 2.4 or 5.8. So if building something out and realizing it has a short time span works. Then 900 is workable. George ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Thank you David for your thoughts on this. I too am a bit skeptical. :) Which is why I decided to ask for comments from you guys. There is the additional issue of "mesh" routing protocols but I think (and I mean think) I may have that covered if the physical stuff worked out ok. It's just the whole concept might fall flat for a dozen reasons. I'm trying to figure out how many nodes I would need to deploy in a real world test, but I also want to think this out before getting that far and spend a bunch of money. The idea may be so bad that testing is unwarranted. But hey, there must be at least 8 people left in the country without broadband, and I want to give it to them! ;) Allen At 01:05 PM 9/10/2007, David E. Smith wrote: Allen Marsalis wrote: I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network before. Which is not a good sign to me. That's a sign that my idea probably won't work. I'd be very skeptical just because of what I lovingly call the "Tropos Effect." Obviously, all these nodes eventually have to come back to... somewhere that has a big bad Internet connection. Your office, a central tower, whatever. If you're near that tower, you don't have much of a problem, as your laptop is talking to a node that's talking directly to that point of origin. If you're a few blocks away, where your laptop talks to a node that's two or three hops away, there's cumulative bandwidth loss and added latency, and just more things that can go wrong generally. Your proposal gets rid of the worst part of how Tropos does things. They use the same radio both for inter-node communication and for customers, same SSID, same everything; by using separate radios for backhaul and customer access, you're already coming out ahead. There will still be added overhead and latency, the more nodes you have to go through, and the folks at the farthest reaches of the network won't have as good an experience as the folks close to your point of origin. I'm a bit skeptical. The expense of 900MHz gear, and the sheer number of units you'd need to for a wide coverage area, makes this seem like a really difficult idea to pull off. Nevertheless, I wish you luck, if you do choose to deploy something like that. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
Wow thanks for the info Joel. I bought a couple of SR9's last week and I'm experimenting now. I might need a 900MHz range spectrum analyzer for this one. :) Re: In fact, I worked under you I believe!! LOL, well sort of. There was no budget, so my job was pretty weird while it lasted. Bruce S. sniped my position which I always thought was a good thing given the circumstances surrounding the death spiral toxic financing deals. Doesn't look like he was able to save the day with his muni wifi program. Did you move to Tempe? Are you back in Ohio? I should probably call Paul this week and see what's happening. I hope he isn't too depressed over the deal like I am (or was) :) Allen At 01:05 PM 9/10/2007, Joel White wrote: Alan, There is a second manufacture of 900 Mini-Pci cards which is Zcomax. The two (ubnt and Zcomax don't talk because of different center frequencies. Zcomax is what Tranzeo is using in there 900 products, so this may be a good way to go, with the ability to have pre-manufactured client radios. What I have found with any Atheros card running 5Mhz channels, is that if you scan from another, you will see the first card transmitting on a channel about 20mhz away. This transmit is about 20dB less than the primary, but still prevalently there. I think you could see some issues because of this, and I wonder what frequency that ends up being when the 900 card is a re-badge of 2.4. To explain this better, channel 6 on 2.4 is 906 on the ubiquity cards I believe. If I then scan and see a signature at 2457, what frequency is that on the 900 conversion? It is probably in the high 800 range by my estimate. There are definitely some issues there. Also, I have seen better connections with Motorola 900 than with the put togethers. I do think your idea is something worth while, and I've thought about something similar myself. I am also familiar with the Muni-market, and the downfalls, and the good ideas of it. If you remember me, you know I worked for one of them. In fact, I worked under you I believe!! Good to see you back. Joel White NexGenAccess Inc. www.nexgenaccess.com 740-513-4122 NexGenAccess Inc. <http://www.nexgenaccess.com> -- Original Message --- From: "Gino Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:49:35 -0400 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks > You 900 idea souns interesting, but youll need a 900 muni client and/or > 900 pcmcia card for customers > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Allen Marsalis Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:17 > PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks > > I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know > me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent > years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my > experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm > thinking about creeping back into the WISP business. > > After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the > press called "muni wireless" promoted by manufacturers such as Strix > and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press > this month: > > <http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html>http://wifinetnews.com/arch > ives/007869.html > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/ > <<http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788&id=e9381817-0593->http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788&id=e9381817-0593-> 417a-86 39-c4c53e2a2a10&view=news>http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10&vi > ew=news > > http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault > <http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.html>http://www.all > eyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html > > http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120 > > This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP > > (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni > WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka > MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big > Yawn).. > > <http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/>http://www.bbwexchange.com/wir > eless_isp/ > > I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss > the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a > failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by > giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so > forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 01:02 PM 9/10/2007, George Rogato wrote: So does this mean that you now agree with me that little wireless cards can be used for wireless broadband? George :) Yes George I do. In fact I used pcmcia cards back in '03 and '04 at ShreveNet for residential pops with good results after we got the bugs out. I'm sure there was a time I felt differently about "cards". Sorry if I ever gave you a hard time about it. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 12:56 PM 9/10/2007, Steve Stroh wrote: Allen: Metricom did. Thanks, Steve Thanks for the reply Steve. Can you share if they were able to make it work or not? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 11:49 AM 9/10/2007, you wrote: You 900 idea souns interesting, but youll need a 900 muni client and/or 900 pcmcia card for customers Thanks much for the reply Gino. My idea is like "muni wireless" in that there really is no CPE per se. With muni wifi, each node is on top of a light pole or building. With my idea, I would place a pole in the yard (or rooftop) of select customers to form the NLOS mesh. Each box would have at least two 900MHz cards plus one wifi card for the customer to access using a laptop (or desktop with cheap wifi adapter). Like with muni wifi, I would own all the rooftop and poletop outdoor gear. But in a sense you are correct. In fact it would be more like two 900 cards per customer if you are not at the edge of the mesh. I'm able to get 0.1 miles of NLOS using wifi so in theory, next door neighbors may not need any 900 (not be a node in the mesh) One goal is to reduce the need for towers. A climber fell to his death here only a few months ago, and I can't afford expensive tower space and climbers anyway. I'd rather put that capital in to more gear to grow the mesh "organically". I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network before. Which is not a good sign to me. That's a sign that my idea probably won't work. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 11:42 AM 9/10/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OMG! I guess you dont love me anymore because you dont return my emails :-( I do love you Bob and I'm truly sorry about that. Around '04 I used to spend about 4 to 6 hours a day on email and my new boss put an end to all that. After I quit, I bounced around between many email addresses and fell into an email funk. My old shreve.net address seems to be working now so I dusted it off to give it a try. Last month I accidently wiped out my bandwise account.. Not making excuses, its my fault. I tried to call you a few weeks ago to chat but dropped the ball again. I've made many mistakes lately. But I just can't stop thinking about wireless! ;) Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 11:42 AM 9/10/2007, Bob Moldashel wrote: YeahThat was him And yes..it was the first one. Because I was at the second one ( I think) and he banged in sick for the show (or something...) Bob I remember missing you in Chicago but not Dallas. If I ever knew you were in Dallas, I'd be there just to meet you face to face for the first time. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
At 11:29 AM 9/10/2007, you wrote: Wow, I think the last time I saw this guy was WISPCON-Dallas... the first one if there was more than one. That was me. There is only one me, that's for sure. :)Dallas WISPCON was my last convention. Allen ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
nd don't wish to hire any climbers unless it is for aggregate backhaul PtP which is fine. This post has nothing to do with PtP shots. But any thoughts or feedback on 900MHz meshing is appreciated. I do see a few problems with this concept, however I am at the stage where I think some feedback might be helpful. I'm hoping some of you followed the muni wireless trend and gear from Strix, Tropos, Belair, etc. Not all their ideas were wrong or bad. One last question or two if I may. Is there only one manufacturer of 900MHz mini-pci cards? (Ubiquiti SR9) Also, do you think it is it too late in 2007 to start a WISP? ;) Last, would 700MHz system eventually creep in over a few years and eat my lunch? Thank you all and as always, good luck to all WISPs! Best Regards, Allen Marsalis am @ bandwise dot com P.S. After all these years, I still cringe when lightning strikes and I think of you guys all the time. :) It is certainly good to see the WISP industry moving along and so many familiar names still in the business. I wish you all continued success! ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/