Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Hey all, Following up on this thread ... First off, thanks to those who've offered advice off-list. It's been very helpful. Looks like we're seriously considering Trango Apex 18GHz ... our used Dragonwave lead didn't pan out. A couple other options have come up, too: E-Band's E-Link 1000 (~75GHz licensed, at a promotional price) or Cablefree G1500 (a 780nm FSO product). Anyone have any experience / feedback regarding either of these two products (or companies)? Again, we're trying to create a 1.2 km urban link in an ITU-R rain region K zone, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability, and sub-$13k (price is an object). Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? You can go Dragonwave 24 Ghz Unlicensed Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Adam Greene Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Just to resuscitate this thread ... We have a 1.2Km urban link, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability. We have deployed Mikrotik 5.3GHz and Radwin 5.3GHz and are getting interference. We've also gotten interfered with on Alvarion VL 5.8. We'd like to do 80GHz Bridgewave, but it's too expensive. 60GHz Bridgewave doesn't have enough reliability according to the link budget calculations. Without actually taking a spectrum analyzer to the location, what suggestion would anyone have about the best frequency radio to deploy, to minimize interference issues, get ~100Mbps throughput and not pay more than ~$13,000 (including advance replacement warranty)? We're thinking Trango Apex or Dragonwave ... Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
FSO and 70/80GHz equipment is very sensitive to movement... make sure your not doing towers and you have no movement on the mount. We purchased some Cablefree licensed gear back when we were Mesa... but its still sitting in a box (decided not to deploy the 38GHz link... it's a long long story). I do know we had some issues getting the gear from them... but the price point was attractive and they appear to be big in Europe. We have been working closely with E-band lately... we see a lot of things we like over there. But I also don't think they are a replacement to Bridgewave... in ways they complement each other. I have no clue why your considering 18GHz for a 1.2km shot... 23GHz 1ft Horizon Compact ought to do it with no problems. I'd still choose Dragonwave for this shot... unless you have plans to go to Gigabit then 80GHz/FSO are better options for future upgrades. If you need a more granular upgrade (Say to 200Mb) Dragonwave would probably work out better. Anyways my 2 cents Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Adam Greene Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Hey all, Following up on this thread ... First off, thanks to those who've offered advice off-list. It's been very helpful. Looks like we're seriously considering Trango Apex 18GHz ... our used Dragonwave lead didn't pan out. A couple other options have come up, too: E-Band's E-Link 1000 (~75GHz licensed, at a promotional price) or Cablefree G1500 (a 780nm FSO product). Anyone have any experience / feedback regarding either of these two products (or companies)? Again, we're trying to create a 1.2 km urban link in an ITU-R rain region K zone, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability, and sub-$13k (price is an object). Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? You can go Dragonwave 24 Ghz Unlicensed Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Adam Greene Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Just to resuscitate this thread ... We have a 1.2Km urban link, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability. We have deployed Mikrotik 5.3GHz and Radwin 5.3GHz and are getting interference. We've also gotten interfered with on Alvarion VL 5.8. We'd like to do 80GHz Bridgewave, but it's too expensive. 60GHz Bridgewave doesn't have enough reliability according to the link budget calculations. Without actually taking a spectrum analyzer to the location, what suggestion would anyone have about the best frequency radio to deploy, to minimize interference issues, get ~100Mbps throughput and not pay more than ~$13,000 (including advance replacement warranty)? We're thinking Trango Apex or Dragonwave ... Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
If you need less than 100mbps and 5-9 reliabilty, you are better off in all factors and comparisons, staying with Licensed 18Ghz or 23Ghz or 24Ghz. It will cost less, and be less risk of future maintenance. E_Band has all sorts of reflection problems. For example, rain puddle can cause a harmful reflection. Do not push the path study limit of Eband or FSO, or you'll be sorry. 1.2 km is pushing the specs, of the cost effective models of those product lines. (PS. but opinion based on my D2 rain zone) If you NEED faster speeds than 300mbps, and have Short links with conservative link budgets, Eband/FSO will work fine. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Adam Greene maill...@webjogger.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Hey all, Following up on this thread ... First off, thanks to those who've offered advice off-list. It's been very helpful. Looks like we're seriously considering Trango Apex 18GHz ... our used Dragonwave lead didn't pan out. A couple other options have come up, too: E-Band's E-Link 1000 (~75GHz licensed, at a promotional price) or Cablefree G1500 (a 780nm FSO product). Anyone have any experience / feedback regarding either of these two products (or companies)? Again, we're trying to create a 1.2 km urban link in an ITU-R rain region K zone, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability, and sub-$13k (price is an object). Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? You can go Dragonwave 24 Ghz Unlicensed Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Adam Greene Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Just to resuscitate this thread ... We have a 1.2Km urban link, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability. We have deployed Mikrotik 5.3GHz and Radwin 5.3GHz and are getting interference. We've also gotten interfered with on Alvarion VL 5.8. We'd like to do 80GHz Bridgewave, but it's too expensive. 60GHz Bridgewave doesn't have enough reliability according to the link budget calculations. Without actually taking a spectrum analyzer to the location, what suggestion would anyone have about the best frequency radio to deploy, to minimize interference issues, get ~100Mbps throughput and not pay more than ~$13,000 (including advance replacement warranty)? We're thinking Trango Apex or Dragonwave ... Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
IIRC Bridgewave has a 100 mbps solultion for less than $8k? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? If you need less than 100mbps and 5-9 reliabilty, you are better off in all factors and comparisons, staying with Licensed 18Ghz or 23Ghz or 24Ghz. It will cost less, and be less risk of future maintenance. E_Band has all sorts of reflection problems. For example, rain puddle can cause a harmful reflection. Do not push the path study limit of Eband or FSO, or you'll be sorry. 1.2 km is pushing the specs, of the cost effective models of those product lines. (PS. but opinion based on my D2 rain zone) If you NEED faster speeds than 300mbps, and have Short links with conservative link budgets, Eband/FSO will work fine. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Adam Greene maill...@webjogger.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Hey all, Following up on this thread ... First off, thanks to those who've offered advice off-list. It's been very helpful. Looks like we're seriously considering Trango Apex 18GHz ... our used Dragonwave lead didn't pan out. A couple other options have come up, too: E-Band's E-Link 1000 (~75GHz licensed, at a promotional price) or Cablefree G1500 (a 780nm FSO product). Anyone have any experience / feedback regarding either of these two products (or companies)? Again, we're trying to create a 1.2 km urban link in an ITU-R rain region K zone, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability, and sub-$13k (price is an object). Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? You can go Dragonwave 24 Ghz Unlicensed Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Adam Greene Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Just to resuscitate this thread ... We have a 1.2Km urban link, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability. We have deployed Mikrotik 5.3GHz and Radwin 5.3GHz and are getting interference. We've also gotten interfered with on Alvarion VL 5.8. We'd like to do 80GHz Bridgewave, but it's too expensive. 60GHz Bridgewave doesn't have enough reliability according to the link budget calculations. Without actually taking a spectrum analyzer to the location, what suggestion would anyone have about the best frequency radio to deploy, to minimize interference issues, get ~100Mbps throughput and not pay more than ~$13,000 (including advance replacement warranty)? We're thinking Trango Apex or Dragonwave ... Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Just to resuscitate this thread ... We have a 1.2Km urban link, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability. We have deployed Mikrotik 5.3GHz and Radwin 5.3GHz and are getting interference. We've also gotten interfered with on Alvarion VL 5.8. We'd like to do 80GHz Bridgewave, but it's too expensive. 60GHz Bridgewave doesn't have enough reliability according to the link budget calculations. Without actually taking a spectrum analyzer to the location, what suggestion would anyone have about the best frequency radio to deploy, to minimize interference issues, get ~100Mbps throughput and not pay more than ~$13,000 (including advance replacement warranty)? We're thinking Trango Apex or Dragonwave ... Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all over it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 can do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to be outside of the 1/2 mile range. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting pretty close. But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and affording to buy
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
You can go Dragonwave 24 Ghz Unlicensed Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Adam Greene Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Just to resuscitate this thread ... We have a 1.2Km urban link, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability. We have deployed Mikrotik 5.3GHz and Radwin 5.3GHz and are getting interference. We've also gotten interfered with on Alvarion VL 5.8. We'd like to do 80GHz Bridgewave, but it's too expensive. 60GHz Bridgewave doesn't have enough reliability according to the link budget calculations. Without actually taking a spectrum analyzer to the location, what suggestion would anyone have about the best frequency radio to deploy, to minimize interference issues, get ~100Mbps throughput and not pay more than ~$13,000 (including advance replacement warranty)? We're thinking Trango Apex or Dragonwave ... Thanks, Adam - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all over it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 can do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to be outside of the 1/2 mile range. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Ceragon has a very good name, but is much more expensive than Dragonwave (and honestly I have a hard time finding the value proposition to Ceragon over Dragonwave... even though I sell Ceragon gear) Hehe...I might argue the same of Trango vs Dragonwave =) Ceragon and Dragonwave will probably be equal on all three requirements for you. I'm sure many are going to mention Trango... Trango in general is going to require larger dishes (their output power is lower than Ceragon and Dragonwave), and robustness and average life are still questionable considering the gear has not been available for really more than a year and a half or so (and that would be the beta gear) Yes and no Dragonwave's NET output power is higher than Trango, but that requires an additional high power premium If price is not an issue, this won't matter, but then again, if price isn't an issue, why not look at Harris/Stratex, Alcatel, NEC, etc? Your going to have this concern with any radio system you purchase... you should look at the Horizon Duo from Dragonwave if you want the split architecture. Personally this wouldn't be something I would be overally concerned with (you could always figure out a way to lock the ODU to the dish or the tower) You could always go all-indoor and run waveguide -- and then everything in the shelter will be locked up Running waveguide also gives the added benefit of not having to climb towers/etc when equipment goes bad No matter what gear is on a tower... if your tower is frozen in ice working on it is going to be difficult. Hence the argument for running waveguide =) In all honesty, the good news about the licensed market is that it is mature enough that basically everything works just fine -- so you really can't go wrong with any decision -- differentiation in the market comes in how things are packaged (all outdoor/split mount/all indoor) and modularity of components (Ethernet, T1/E1, etc) And then there's price -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Hi Bob, I don't think Trango will be a good fit considering the 20-25 mile link distances, 18 Ghz. and the reduced tx power compared to others in the lower bands. You forget that Travis lives in RF Nirvana In RF Nirvana, 38 GHz goes 15 miles and 18 GHz 30 miles with 99.999% uptime -Charles Travis Johnson wrote: Take a look at the Trango GigaLink and APEX radios. They make both an IDU/ODU and just an ODU option. We just installed the APEX 18ghz systems. At one location we used the fiber option and it works great. You can contact them directly (www.trangobroadband.com) or contact Charles @ CTI. They are selling the 18ghz version with 2ft dishes for $9,995 right now (complete link). Travis Microserv Paolo Di Francesco wrote: Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. 5) Performances look more or less the same. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this devices or just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do you need to reset them often? Comments are welcome. Am I missing some other good brand? Thank you. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Hi Bob, I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing a breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No guessing about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the interface cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run CAT5 and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or see no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are bad your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the ground with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. Life isn't as easy for us poor saps that have to climb towers In my old age, I am beginning to appreciate the value of waveguide...sure, it adds a significant cost to the link ($5-10k), but, if you don't have in-house tower climbers, the labor savings over time can be quite significant -- depending on your time horizon, it may be worth investigating -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Hi Tom, But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. I would argue that after taking Matt L out of the equation, 100 Mb FD is more than enough for 95% of WISP applications -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Hi Brad, Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. Being the devil's advocate I recently priced out Gigaman in my market (1 Gb Ring Protected Fiber) and got a quote for $2k / month plus $5k build-out Why would someone want to spend $20-30k on a ptp (and still have to pay $500-1k / month for roof rights) for a wireless 1 GB link and have to worry about lightening/rain fade/equipment failures/etc...When the pay-off is 3+ years (not including labor / maintenance / etc) Or better yet, just string your own fiber...properly done, pole attachment isn't all too expensive and I'd take fiber of wireless any day -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Brad, I agree to a point. But we could be competing with FIOS to the Home, with lower price 60 and 80Ghz products. Look at Xbox, using technology that once only the military or Hollywood could afford, but now is bring satisfaction to millions of kids (and adults) nationwide. Technology is all about the race to the bottom, so the technology's use can be maximized by the largest number of people. My kid just got a Happy meal toy, that actually talks. Its amazing how cheap technology can be made. I don't think the FCC made 80Ghz rules just for the few people that can justify the cost structure of Bridgewave. 80Ghz is MOSTLY going unused. And its because manufacturers are letting their marketing ideas, stand in the way of getting product in providers hands. I should not have to pay $30k to use 80Ghz frequency, if I have a project that isn't worth that much. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all over it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 can do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to be outside of the 1/2 mile range. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting pretty close. But that is not my point. I personally do not think
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Hello Charles, Come on Charles you should know the answer to your question: Location, Location, Location. Some of our clients have forgotten about more fiber laid than a mid-size Telco, but fiber is not always feasible. Railroads, runways, rivers and a number of other factors can eliminate fiber as an option. That's where we come in. Second scenario (which is in part why the first BridgeWave link was installed) is redundancy. The fact is fiber gets cut. If your operation requires a completely diverse, secure, redundant path at GigE speeds then BridgeWave is a good fit. BTW, I'm not avoiding your calls...just been slammed with business! We're hoping to be caught up in a few months, but then again maybe we should hope to never be caught up... grin Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wu (CTI) Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 8:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Hi Brad, Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. Being the devil's advocate I recently priced out Gigaman in my market (1 Gb Ring Protected Fiber) and got a quote for $2k / month plus $5k build-out Why would someone want to spend $20-30k on a ptp (and still have to pay $500-1k / month for roof rights) for a wireless 1 GB link and have to worry about lightening/rain fade/equipment failures/etc...When the pay-off is 3+ years (not including labor / maintenance / etc) Or better yet, just string your own fiber...properly done, pole attachment isn't all too expensive and I'd take fiber of wireless any day -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
I spoke before the millmeter wave IWPC group about 3 years ago. My message to them was to stop selling at high margins per radio pair and sell millions of units at lower margins. They thought I was nuts. I met a guy from Intel who was making millimeter wave radio devices out of CMOS instead of SiGe. It is like the difference in cost of building radios out of rust instead of diamonds (quote from my friemnd Jack Rickard). Sadly this group is still sticking to old ways. If we ever see CMOS millmeter wave radios taking off then we will see $1K GigE radios. Then everyone gets a gigabit. Scriv On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, I agree to a point. But we could be competing with FIOS to the Home, with lower price 60 and 80Ghz products. Look at Xbox, using technology that once only the military or Hollywood could afford, but now is bring satisfaction to millions of kids (and adults) nationwide. Technology is all about the race to the bottom, so the technology's use can be maximized by the largest number of people. My kid just got a Happy meal toy, that actually talks. Its amazing how cheap technology can be made. I don't think the FCC made 80Ghz rules just for the few people that can justify the cost structure of Bridgewave. 80Ghz is MOSTLY going unused. And its because manufacturers are letting their marketing ideas, stand in the way of getting product in providers hands. I should not have to pay $30k to use 80Ghz frequency, if I have a project that isn't worth that much. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
John, Your insight hit the nail on the head. Unfortuntately, the current dominent manufacturers in 80G don't get it yet. The year after at IWPC, there was one manufacturer, Huber+Suhner, that appeared to get it. They discovered a super low cost method to make 60-80Ghz antennas, taht could be made for pennies. Its just a matter of time before the industry comes up with a radio for us. I'm pretty sure it was them that demoed a 60-80Ghz radio delivering around 300mbps targeting a probable $2000k price points. These type companies are still looking for the business cases to support it, but I think it will happen. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I spoke before the millmeter wave IWPC group about 3 years ago. My message to them was to stop selling at high margins per radio pair and sell millions of units at lower margins. They thought I was nuts. I met a guy from Intel who was making millimeter wave radio devices out of CMOS instead of SiGe. It is like the difference in cost of building radios out of rust instead of diamonds (quote from my friemnd Jack Rickard). Sadly this group is still sticking to old ways. If we ever see CMOS millmeter wave radios taking off then we will see $1K GigE radios. Then everyone gets a gigabit. Scriv On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, I agree to a point. But we could be competing with FIOS to the Home, with lower price 60 and 80Ghz products. Look at Xbox, using technology that once only the military or Hollywood could afford, but now is bring satisfaction to millions of kids (and adults) nationwide. Technology is all about the race to the bottom, so the technology's use can be maximized by the largest number of people. My kid just got a Happy meal toy, that actually talks. Its amazing how cheap technology can be made. I don't think the FCC made 80Ghz rules just for the few people that can justify the cost structure of Bridgewave. 80Ghz is MOSTLY going unused. And its because manufacturers are letting their marketing ideas, stand in the way of getting product in providers hands. I should not have to pay $30k to use 80Ghz frequency, if I have a project that isn't worth that much. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Good advice Bob, but I'll add There is a purpose for each model, and for that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always the best choice. For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some circumstances. Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to 1000ft. (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 feet or so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on the other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require taking the case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq Coords not complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion because they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and 23 Ghz only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it should not be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are Private VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For example, Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 for the ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is enabled with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router equipment do not need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. This is not useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique benefit. Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The Airpair supports a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged with the Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement warrantees, its much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full outdoor radio. I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 for a full Horizon. We'd use All ODU models where we have live backup links in place, and can afford to wait for a Manufacturer replacement. With that said, we love All ODU units, it makes for a much quicker/simpler install, with Zero Footprint needed inside. This is great for MTU buildings, where they need to be installed in small closets, or penthouse walls. The Dragonwaves were the first to be able to combine radios for double the capacity, so more expandabilty. Airpair offers 25% more capacity than the Trango giga, where split archetecture is needed. Dragonwave offers a dealer channel for those that will benefit from it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bob Moldashel lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Wella couple of notes... I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing a breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No guessing about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the interface cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run CAT5 and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or see no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are bad your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the ground with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with theft you can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a security screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly to lock it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably consider another location. With weather being a concern you could always install a second parallel link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link fails the other could be engaged to carry the traffic. I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) without 4' antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 Ghz. you are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per antenna with mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and installation. I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service facility is in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is only $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing some growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is serviced overseas unless it is an interface or something simple. Dragonwave support is very responsive though you do have to leave your name with a service and they call you back. I have installed more than 45 Dragonwave links in the past 2 years and have only had 2 failures. There are other options but history, price or delivery will kill them as an option. And stay away from equipment that does
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. But agree with everything else :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Good advice Bob, but I'll add There is a purpose for each model, and for that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always the best choice. For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some circumstances. Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to 1000ft. (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 feet or so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on the other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require taking the case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq Coords not complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion because they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and 23 Ghz only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it should not be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are Private VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For example, Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 for the ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is enabled with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router equipment do not need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. This is not useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique benefit. Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The Airpair supports a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged with the Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement warrantees, its much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full outdoor radio. I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 for a full Horizon. We'd use All ODU models where we have live backup links in place, and can afford to wait for a Manufacturer replacement. With that said, we love All ODU units, it makes for a much quicker/simpler install, with Zero Footprint needed inside. This is great for MTU buildings, where they need to be installed in small closets, or penthouse walls. The Dragonwaves were the first to be able to combine radios for double the capacity, so more expandabilty. Airpair offers 25% more capacity than the Trango giga, where split archetecture is needed. Dragonwave offers a dealer channel for those that will benefit from it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bob Moldashel lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Wella couple of notes... I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing a breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No guessing about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the interface cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run CAT5 and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or see no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are bad your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the ground with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with theft you can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a security screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly to lock it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably consider another location. With weather being a concern you could always install a second parallel link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link fails the other could be engaged to carry the traffic. I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) without 4' antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 Ghz. you are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per antenna with mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and installation. I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service facility is in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is only $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing some growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is serviced overseas unless it is an interface or something
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Tom, The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than Dragonwave for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Bob, I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps per radio ODU with Ethernet. Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio combining (for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition of 6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, to deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. But agree with everything else :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Good advice Bob, but I'll add There is a purpose for each model, and for that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always the best choice. For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some circumstances. Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to 1000ft. (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 feet or so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on the other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require taking the case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq Coords not complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion because they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and 23 Ghz only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it should not be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are Private VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For example, Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 for the ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is enabled with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router equipment do not need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. This is not useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique benefit. Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The Airpair supports a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged with the Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement warrantees, its much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full outdoor radio. I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 for a full Horizon. We'd use All ODU models where we have live backup links in place, and can afford to wait for a Manufacturer replacement. With that said, we love All ODU units, it makes for a much quicker/simpler install, with Zero Footprint needed inside. This is great for MTU buildings, where they need to be installed in small closets, or penthouse walls. The Dragonwaves were the first to be able to combine radios for double the capacity, so more expandabilty. Airpair offers 25% more capacity than the Trango giga, where split archetecture is needed. Dragonwave offers a dealer channel for those that will benefit from it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bob Moldashel lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Wella couple of notes... I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing a breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No guessing about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the interface cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run CAT5 and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or see no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are bad your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the ground
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will produce line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave can pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to deploying another BridgeWave link. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Tom, The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than Dragonwave for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Bob, I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps per radio ODU with Ethernet. Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio combining (for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition of 6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, to deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. But agree with everything else :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Good advice Bob, but I'll add There is a purpose for each model, and for that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always the best choice. For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some circumstances. Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to 1000ft. (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 feet or so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on the other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require taking the case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq Coords not complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion because they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and 23 Ghz only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it should not be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are Private VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For example, Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 for the ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is enabled with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router equipment do not need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. This is not useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique benefit. Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The Airpair supports a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged with the Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement warrantees, its much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full outdoor radio. I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 for a full Horizon. We'd use All ODU models where we have live backup links in place, and can afford to wait for a Manufacturer replacement. With that said, we love All ODU units, it makes for a much quicker/simpler install, with Zero Footprint needed inside. This is great for MTU buildings, where they need to be installed in small closets, or penthouse walls. The Dragonwaves were the first to be able to combine radios for double the capacity, so more expandabilty. Airpair offers 25% more capacity than the Trango giga, where split archetecture is needed. Dragonwave offers a dealer channel for those that will benefit from it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bob Moldashel lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Daniel So for a Duo link, I need what kind of license? Channel size? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:55 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Dragonwave can pull off up to 1.6Gpbs... but that isn't line speed I don't think. Anyways the attached pdf explains it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:50 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will produce line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave can pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to deploying another BridgeWave link. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Tom, The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than Dragonwave for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Bob, I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps per radio ODU with Ethernet. Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio combining (for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition of 6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, to deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. But agree with everything else :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Good advice Bob, but I'll add There is a purpose for each model, and for that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always the best choice. For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some circumstances. Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to 1000ft. (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 feet or so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on the other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require taking the case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq Coords not complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion because they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and 23 Ghz only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it should not be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are Private VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For example, Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 for the ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is enabled with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router equipment do not need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. This is not useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique benefit. Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The Airpair supports a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged with the Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement warrantees, its much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full outdoor radio. I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 for a full Horizon. We'd use All ODU models
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Channel size depends on the band... but you need whatever the largest channel size is. Then you need four licenses basically... V pol and H pol with two different frequencies. As I said Bridgewave is a much cheaper solution... but depending on what you need the Dragonwave solution might be more attractive. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Daniel So for a Duo link, I need what kind of license? Channel size? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:55 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Dragonwave can pull off up to 1.6Gpbs... but that isn't line speed I don't think. Anyways the attached pdf explains it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:50 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will produce line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave can pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to deploying another BridgeWave link. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Tom, The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than Dragonwave for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Bob, I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps per radio ODU with Ethernet. Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio combining (for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition of 6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, to deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. But agree with everything else :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Good advice Bob, but I'll add There is a purpose for each model, and for that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always the best choice. For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some circumstances. Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to 1000ft. (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 feet or so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on the other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require taking the case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq Coords not complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion because they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and 23 Ghz only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it should not be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are Private VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For example, Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 for the ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is enabled with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting pretty close. But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and affording to buy and install as many links as possible. WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave needs more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that Apexes and Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left behind this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology less trouble to deploy. Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK then, Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be bought and deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and get my ROI in one year. Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before you need it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance costs on that. Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being used. If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost per link. Sure if you have a RUS loan at 3-5% that probably isn't a bad problem. But at typical lease fees (20%), that adds up to easily doubling the cost of procurement over 3-5 years. I've always felt Bridgewave to be overpriced, and because of they attempt to get top dollar for the rare circumstances where it is worth that, they loose huge amounts of market share, to companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that fit a much wider set of diverse needs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will produce line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave can pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to deploying another BridgeWave link. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Tom, The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than Dragonwave for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Bob, I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps per radio ODU with Ethernet. Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio combining (for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition of 6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, to deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. But agree with everything else :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Good advice Bob, but I'll add There is a purpose for each model, and for that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always the best choice. For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some circumstances. Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to 1000ft. (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 feet or so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on the other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require taking the case apart in order to reach
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all over it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 can do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to be outside of the 1/2 mile range. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting pretty close. But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and affording to buy and install as many links as possible. WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave needs more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that Apexes and Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left behind this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology less trouble to deploy. Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK then, Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be bought and deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and get my ROI in one year. Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before you need it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance costs on that. Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being used. If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost per link. Sure if you have a RUS loan at 3-5% that probably isn't a bad problem. But at typical lease fees (20%), that adds up to easily doubling the cost of procurement over 3-5 years. I've always felt Bridgewave to be overpriced, and because of they attempt to get top dollar for the rare circumstances where it is worth that, they loose huge amounts of market share, to companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that fit a much wider set of diverse needs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will produce line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave can pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to deploying another BridgeWave link. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Tom, The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than Dragonwave for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Bob, I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps per radio ODU with Ethernet. Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio combining (for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition of 6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, to deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Tom, Wow?!? Four links as in eight radios or two links and four radios? Either way that'll require some real estate! You're making assumptions that 1Gbps isn't needed at the time of installation and ROI is pushed out. Neither could be the case. (e.g. It wasn't in our selection of BridgeWave) My guess is BridgeWave has a niche that they are enjoying. Sure, we'd like to be able to pay less for BridgeWave gear, but on the other hand it sets a barrier to entry that immediately separates the wheat from the chaff. So to speak... Actually we've found oversubscription is more of a problem in the 400Mbps+ realm as the choices in equipment that can actually deliver payloads at that level begin to thin out. Canopy-Believe, Granted BridgeWave is NOT a good solution by itself for a long link requiring 99.999% uptime at full modulation. That is why BridgeWave has made provisions to seamlessly migrate traffic over to an alternate radio set without any additional hardware required. So, for the client that needs true GigE capacity between sites 40%, 50%, even 99.7% (2hrs 14min downtime) BridgeWave is a good fit. For the remaining 2hrs, 14min they can poke along at 100Mbps, 200Mbps or even 300Mbps over an alternate path. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of can...@believewireless.net Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all over it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 can do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to be outside of the 1/2 mile range. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting pretty close. But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and affording to buy and install as many links as possible. WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave needs more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that Apexes and Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left behind this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology less trouble to deploy. Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK then, Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be bought and deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and get my ROI in one year. Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before you need it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance costs on that. Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being used. If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost per link. Sure if you have a RUS loan at 3-5% that probably isn't a bad problem. But at typical lease fees (20%), that adds up to easily doubling the cost of procurement over 3-5 years. I've always felt Bridgewave to be overpriced, and because of they attempt to get top dollar for the rare circumstances where it is worth that, they loose huge amounts of market share, to companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that fit a much wider set of diverse needs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will produce line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave can pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to deploying another BridgeWave link. Best, Brad
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all over it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 can do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to be outside of the 1/2 mile range. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting pretty close. But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and affording to buy and install as many links as possible. WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave needs more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that Apexes and Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left behind this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology less trouble to deploy. Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK then, Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be bought and deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and get my ROI in one year. Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before you need it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance costs on that. Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being used. If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost per link. Sure if you have a RUS loan at 3-5% that probably isn't a bad problem. But at typical lease fees (20%), that adds up to easily doubling the cost of procurement over 3-5 years. I've always felt Bridgewave to be overpriced, and because of they attempt to get top dollar for the rare circumstances where it is worth that, they loose huge amounts of market share, to companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that fit a much wider set of diverse needs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will produce
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Well Brad, I never said Bridgewave didn't have a viable market. Nor that Bridgewave wasn;t a good decission for your application. When someone actually needs a GB, its a heck of a good deal. I can give an example of a WISP that has a cell tower, that agregates 300mbps licensed links, but needs to get 1/2 mile down the street to the carrier hotel. They need that GB to get to the carrier hotel. And they didn't sweat the price. My point is that, that market is not the common high volume market. Its a niche market. Obviously they are happy with their niche market currently, or they would have lowered their prices. I will tell you that, there will be a 80Ghz equipment manufacturer that wants the service provider typical market. And when they come, The radios won't cost $30k. They'll cost sub $5000. My point was Bridgewave's price break for models was from 100mb jump to 1 gb. When someone saturates 100mb, they don't instantly need 1 gb, 10x the capacity. There is no middle ground with Bridgewave. Thus, my comment of paying for broadband that they don't need. As far as Bridgewave with backup link? Well thats two antennas. Dragonwave with 4 links is also 2 antenna, because they use pol diversity to share the antennas. Ironically, per mbps, 4 dragonwave links cost just about the same a the 1Gb Bridgewave, the only difference is that the Dragonwave can be converted into a half capacity redundant link, if one of the radios fails. Don't get me wrong, its not ideal. Nor guaranteed spectrum channels will be available. But it allows growth, in 300mbps increments, as a WISP needs it. Plus with a 2 link Apex (1 antenna per side shared) 700mbps, its still 40% less costly than Bridgewave's GB 2ft link. And there is redundancy, (although not real time switch over), and no longer a limit in distance. No longer a risk, trying to keep the 1 degree beamwidth aligned. The market potential of the Apex is so much greater than that of the Bridgewave, looking for that tiny market segment that is less than a mile away, and needs the full 1GB. Bridgewave is loosing huge market share, for no reason. The fact is an 80Ghz 2ft dish radio, is capable of being sold at only $1000 more than its counter part capable of half mile at 60Ghz and 1 ft dish, that now sells for $11,000, at equivellent profit margin, if they wanted to. But they chose to try and charge $20k more, for something that has no cost. I do not beleive most service providers are paying it. I beleive Bridgewave instead just looses market share. But I guess I do not really know that. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Bridgewave radios sold are the $11k radios versus the $30k radios. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: can...@believewireless.net; 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Tom, Wow?!? Four links as in eight radios or two links and four radios? Either way that'll require some real estate! You're making assumptions that 1Gbps isn't needed at the time of installation and ROI is pushed out. Neither could be the case. (e.g. It wasn't in our selection of BridgeWave) My guess is BridgeWave has a niche that they are enjoying. Sure, we'd like to be able to pay less for BridgeWave gear, but on the other hand it sets a barrier to entry that immediately separates the wheat from the chaff. So to speak... Actually we've found oversubscription is more of a problem in the 400Mbps+ realm as the choices in equipment that can actually deliver payloads at that level begin to thin out. Canopy-Believe, Granted BridgeWave is NOT a good solution by itself for a long link requiring 99.999% uptime at full modulation. That is why BridgeWave has made provisions to seamlessly migrate traffic over to an alternate radio set without any additional hardware required. So, for the client that needs true GigE capacity between sites 40%, 50%, even 99.7% (2hrs 14min downtime) BridgeWave is a good fit. For the remaining 2hrs, 14min they can poke along at 100Mbps, 200Mbps or even 300Mbps over an alternate path. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of can...@believewireless.net Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The link has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of more to follow. They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that price. No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market clearly supports the current price point. Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at $10k - $20k depending on who you ask. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? I fully agree. I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a license for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the 80Ghz. I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry back for no good reason. We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close to the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather and rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty short range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 the price. Most people would rather save money. They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making sales, before to long. I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, We really don't need a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine. We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all over it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 can do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to be outside of the 1/2 mile range. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Brad, Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting pretty close. But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and affording to buy and install as many links as possible. WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave needs more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that Apexes and Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left behind this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology less trouble to deploy. Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK then, Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be bought and deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and get my ROI in one year. Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before you need it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance costs on that. Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being used. If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Comments inline Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Paolo Di Francesco Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 6:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Ceragon has a very good name, but is much more expensive than Dragonwave (and honestly I have a hard time finding the value proposition to Ceragon over Dragonwave... even though I sell Ceragon gear) Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years Ceragon and Dragonwave will probably be equal on all three requirements for you. I'm sure many are going to mention Trango... Trango in general is going to require larger dishes (their output power is lower than Ceragon and Dragonwave), and robustness and average life are still questionable considering the gear has not been available for really more than a year and a half or so (and that would be the beta gear) From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. Your going to have this concern with any radio system you purchase... you should look at the Horizon Duo from Dragonwave if you want the split architecture. Personally this wouldn't be something I would be overally concerned with (you could always figure out a way to lock the ODU to the dish or the tower) 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). In that case I would use the Horizon Duo for the split architecture. You can also get the Horizon Compact with the fiber interface... 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. True... but they are also cheaper. But if your buying 11GHz links you can always redeploy it on a shorter link or a link of similar size... you can even deploy them on a longer link you may just have to purchase a larger dish. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. No matter what gear is on a tower... if your tower is frozen in ice working on it is going to be difficult. 5) Performances look more or less the same. Between Dragonwave and Ceragon... yes they are. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect If your interested hit me offlist and I can help you with some quotes 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this devices or just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do you need to reset them often? I always view a bridge as a bridge... so I'm not of the opinion any radio bridge ought to do routing, etc. Let a router do it... and let a switch be a switch (for instance I would rather have a fully manageable switch than the four port deal on the Trango radios). We never had to reboot our Dragonwave radios... they only ever were rebooted when we lost power or something else happened... same goes for the two Ceragon links we had. Comments are welcome. Am I missing some other good brand? Nera is popular in Europe... and Harris-Stratex is pretty popular (although pretty expensive too). Personally I would only buy Dragonwave (and I'm not just saying that because I sell Dragonwave... I sell Exalt, Dragonwave, Ceragon, Nera, Cielo... and heck I'm sure I'm forgetting some) Thank you. -- Ing. Paolo Di Francesco Teleinform S.p.A. Sede Legale: Via Francesco Paolo Di Blasi 1, 90144 Palermo Unita' Operativa: Via Regione Siciliana 49, 90046 Monreale Tel: +39-091-6408576, +39-091-6404501 Fax: +39-091-6406200 http://www.wikitel.it http://www.teleinform.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
I don't think Trango will be a good fit considering the 20-25 mile link distances, 18 Ghz. and the reduced tx power compared to others in the lower bands. Travis Johnson wrote: Take a look at the Trango GigaLink and APEX radios. They make both an IDU/ODU and just an ODU option. We just installed the APEX 18ghz systems. At one location we used the fiber option and it works great. You can contact them directly (www.trangobroadband.com) or contact Charles @ CTI. They are selling the 18ghz version with 2ft dishes for $9,995 right now (complete link). Travis Microserv Paolo Di Francesco wrote: Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. 5) Performances look more or less the same. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this devices or just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do you need to reset them often? Comments are welcome. Am I missing some other good brand? Thank you. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Wella couple of notes... I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing a breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No guessing about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the interface cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run CAT5 and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or see no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are bad your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the ground with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with theft you can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a security screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly to lock it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably consider another location. With weather being a concern you could always install a second parallel link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link fails the other could be engaged to carry the traffic. I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) without 4' antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 Ghz. you are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per antenna with mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and installation. I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service facility is in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is only $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing some growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is serviced overseas unless it is an interface or something simple. Dragonwave support is very responsive though you do have to leave your name with a service and they call you back. I have installed more than 45 Dragonwave links in the past 2 years and have only had 2 failures. There are other options but history, price or delivery will kill them as an option. And stay away from equipment that does switching for you. Do all your control external to the radio. Bob Paolo Di Francesco wrote: Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. 5) Performances look more or less the same. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this devices or just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do you need to reset them often? Comments are welcome. Am I missing some other good brand? Thank you. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
To expand on one point made by Bob... If you need to add T-1's you can do that using Psuedowire with some boxes from Dragonwave... but you will probably find the ODU/IDU combo a bit easier to play with. To add a point for an all outdoor version CAT5 cable is much cheaper than LMR-400 and others... Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 4:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Wella couple of notes... I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing a breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No guessing about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the interface cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run CAT5 and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or see no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are bad your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the ground with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with theft you can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a security screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly to lock it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably consider another location. With weather being a concern you could always install a second parallel link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link fails the other could be engaged to carry the traffic. I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) without 4' antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 Ghz. you are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per antenna with mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and installation. I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service facility is in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is only $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing some growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is serviced overseas unless it is an interface or something simple. Dragonwave support is very responsive though you do have to leave your name with a service and they call you back. I have installed more than 45 Dragonwave links in the past 2 years and have only had 2 failures. There are other options but history, price or delivery will kill them as an option. And stay away from equipment that does switching for you. Do all your control external to the radio. Bob Paolo Di Francesco wrote: Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. 5) Performances look more or less the same. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this devices or just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do you need to reset them often? Comments are welcome. Am I missing some other good brand? Thank you. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
If you value anything at all stay away from Ceragon. Probably the worst brand of hardware and definitely the worst support I have encountered. Took them nearly a year to fix an ARP bug that locked up the radio, took half a dozen people, two of which flew on site to see it for themselves. On 1/18/09, 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net wrote: To expand on one point made by Bob... If you need to add T-1's you can do that using Psuedowire with some boxes from Dragonwave... but you will probably find the ODU/IDU combo a bit easier to play with. To add a point for an all outdoor version CAT5 cable is much cheaper than LMR-400 and others... Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 4:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Wella couple of notes... I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing a breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No guessing about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the interface cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run CAT5 and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or see no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are bad your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the ground with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with theft you can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a security screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly to lock it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably consider another location. With weather being a concern you could always install a second parallel link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link fails the other could be engaged to carry the traffic. I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) without 4' antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 Ghz. you are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per antenna with mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and installation. I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service facility is in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is only $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing some growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is serviced overseas unless it is an interface or something simple. Dragonwave support is very responsive though you do have to leave your name with a service and they call you back. I have installed more than 45 Dragonwave links in the past 2 years and have only had 2 failures. There are other options but history, price or delivery will kill them as an option. And stay away from equipment that does switching for you. Do all your control external to the radio. Bob Paolo Di Francesco wrote: Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. 5) Performances look more or less the same. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, DragonWave and whatelse?
DragonWave has their Horizon Duo, which is a split mount system. If you enable the second radio in the unit you take a pretty TX power hit though. No 6ghz radio though, which you will want at 20-25 miles. I had a ton of problems with my 2 Airpair 11Ghz links. Knock on wood, they have been running for about a year now though. Ceragon makes a very good radio, but lead times for 6 and 11ghz high power stink. I put an order in at the end of October and have really been hounding them. I should have the rest of my order next week. I bought 5 links, 4 11ghz and 1 6ghz, all high power. If you don't want/need high power it should be better. I bought IPMAX2 HP because I can move the RFU's indoors if I want and gain another 3db of TX power. I also would look at Nera. They have a radio that is pretty nice. No 256qam or hitless adaptive modulation yet, but price and delivery seem to be reasonable. Nera also seems to have the best system gain in the market, 102db. DragonWave will probably be cheapest, but they don't have a split mount 6ghz radio. No experience with Nera yet, but I plan to this year. I really think Ceragon has the complete package at this time, but getting equipment is like pulling teeth. My 2 cents anyway. Mike Bushard, Jr Wireless Network Engineer DiversiCOM / Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC 320-256-WISP (9477) 320-256-0178 Direct 320-333-9448 Cellular 320-256-7555 Fax -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Paolo Di Francesco Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. 5) Performances look more or less the same. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this devices or just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do you need to reset them often? Comments are welcome. Am I missing some other good brand? Thank you. -- Ing. Paolo Di Francesco Teleinform S.p.A. Sede Legale: Via Francesco Paolo Di Blasi 1, 90144 Palermo Unita' Operativa: Via Regione Siciliana 49, 90046 Monreale Tel: +39-091-6408576, +39-091-6404501 Fax: +39-091-6406200 http://www.wikitel.it http://www.teleinform.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse?
Take a look at the Trango GigaLink and APEX radios. They make both an IDU/ODU and just an ODU option. We just installed the APEX 18ghz systems. At one location we used the fiber option and it works great. You can contact them directly (www.trangobroadband.com) or contact Charles @ CTI. They are selling the 18ghz version with 2ft dishes for $9,995 right now (complete link). Travis Microserv Paolo Di Francesco wrote: Dear All, we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling and therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at 2 main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is which one fits better for our needs? Just to summarize: a) links are around 20-25 miles b) antennas: the smaller the better c) robustness is very important d) average life: 3 years From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following considerations: 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well protected from sabotage and stealing. The all outdoor approach is nice but it has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will have a brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have only half of the banknote, so after the first or second time, they will not spend time having something useless. 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from the unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge amount or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we get only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the tower, but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices somewhere else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping the ODU. 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is frozen (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does not change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. 5) Performances look more or less the same. 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I am still exploring this aspect 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this devices or just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do you need to reset them often? Comments are welcome. Am I missing some other good brand? Thank you. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
