Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread John J. Thomas
I think the general thinking is that WISP's shouldn't have to pay to make the 
Governments' job easier...

John 


-Original Message-
From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2006 11:29 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT 
support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue 
burden of responsibility on an ISP.

Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out 
the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited 
and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and 
really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps 
of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs 
uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 
60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits 
nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up 
to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic.

Your total cost on something like this would be
1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to 
sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router).
2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost  $500.
3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs.

This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then 
whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a 
month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 
120Mbps, once a day.

I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address 
this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with 
the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the 
business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have 
in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for 
system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD 
because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I 
will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is 
for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more 
than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a 
customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 
weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that 
things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow 
data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing 
large FTP downloads.

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Butch Evans wrote:
 On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
 on the internet?

 This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern 
 for us here.

 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
 gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
 feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?

 THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have 
 with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
 the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In 
 many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
 (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
 that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a 
 couple examples.

 First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. 
 For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) 
 will be completely useless.

 Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
 networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
 (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
 one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.

 It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
 requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
 period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
 that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair 
 for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.

 This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
 to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
 and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
 We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.

 George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political 
 discussion. This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP 
 (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political 
 implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is 
 NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical.

 We do

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at
hand


 On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of
 Americans on the internet?

 This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any
 concern for us here.

WHAT???

Of course this is AT ISSUE.   Or do you exempt yourself from being a citizen
and having any concern about intrusion into your life???

That some of us happen to be part of the businesses in question is merely
incidental.   Our opinions as businessmen should reflect that issue as well.
Or is that too redneck these days?


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread Butch Evans

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:


1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of
Americans on the internet?


This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any
concern for us here.


Of course this is AT ISSUE.  Or do you exempt yourself from being a 
citizen and having any concern about intrusion into your life???


Not at all.  BUT, IT DOESN'T APPLY TO THIS LIST.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down 
to does the membership of wispa want to do this.


Which is what I said in my first post on the subject.

I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make 
up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not?


Yes indeed.  BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase 
only an associate membership.  But I do, in fact, agree with this 
sentiment.


I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do 
something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to 
give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying 
member of wispa, yet.


You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I.  I 
suggested that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA 
membership, that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. 
Peter's post was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread George Rogato

Well now I don't feel so alone in my opinions :)

I still consider you a wisp, isn't that what brought us all here together?

George

Butch Evans wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to 
does the membership of wispa want to do this.



Which is what I said in my first post on the subject.

I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up 
the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not?



Yes indeed.  BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase only 
an associate membership.  But I do, in fact, agree with this sentiment.


I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do 
something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a 
solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of 
wispa, yet.



You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I.  I suggested 
that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA membership, 
that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. Peter's post 
was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list.




--
George Rogato

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www.wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread Sam Tetherow
I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT 
support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue 
burden of responsibility on an ISP.


Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out 
the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited 
and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and 
really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps 
of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs 
uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 
60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits 
nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up 
to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic.


Your total cost on something like this would be
1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to 
sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router).

2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost  $500.
3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs.

This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then 
whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a 
month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 
120Mbps, once a day.


I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address 
this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with 
the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the 
business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have 
in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for 
system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD 
because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I 
will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is 
for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more 
than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a 
customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 
weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that 
things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow 
data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing 
large FTP downloads.


Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Butch Evans wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
on the internet?


This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern 
for us here.


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?


THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have 
with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In 
many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
(network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a 
couple examples.


First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. 
For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) 
will be completely useless.


Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
(one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.


It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair 
for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.


George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political 
discussion. This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP 
(wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political 
implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is 
NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the 
burden of gathering this information.


OK. If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something 
that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA? I don't agree with much that Mark 
had to say (really, it was the implications he made that I disagreed 
with), but his point that there should 

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues 
at hand.


1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on 
the internet?


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering 
this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves 
with little or no cost to the ISP?


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to 
know our every move.
This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by 
an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on 
issues such as this.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden 
of gathering this information.


I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread is 
about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any other 
ISP org has concerning this issue.


One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue.


--
George Rogato

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
While I agree with your breakdown and the general statement that #1 
should be decided on by the country as a whole.  I think it is up to us 
as an industry that understands the implications of what is being asked 
for to make a statement about #1 even if it is just a clarification of 
the implications of this law.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

George Rogato wrote:
I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues 
at hand.


1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
on the internet?


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering 
this information or should the burden be carried by the feds 
themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to 
know our every move.
This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided 
by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any 
jurisdiction on issues such as this.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the 
burden of gathering this information.


I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread 
is about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any 
other ISP org has concerning this issue.


One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue.





--
  Sam Tetherow
  Sandhills Wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of 
Americans on the internet?


This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any 
concern for us here.


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?


THIS is the real issue that ISPs face.  The problem that we all have 
with this is multifaceted.  First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. 
In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and 
indirect (network reconfiguration).  Also, many ISPs are set up in 
such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible.  Let me 
provide just a couple examples.


First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their 
customers.  For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity 
(i.e. ATT) will be completely useless.


Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
networks.  I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct 
networks (one has 8).  These ISPs would be required to store this 
data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each 
network.


It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
period.  The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. 
Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially 
unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at 
all.


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.


George, this is one area where we disagree.  This is NOT a 
political discussion.  This is an issue that directly impacts 
every ISP (wireless or wired).  It is, perhaps, true that the 
political implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue 
at hand is NOT political in nature.  It IS financial and technical.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the 
burden of gathering this information.


OK.  If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something 
that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA?  I don't agree with much that 
Mark had to say (really, it was the implications he made that I 
disagreed with), but his point that there should be SOME action on 
the part of WISPA is one that I do agree with.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato

Butch,
Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to 
does the membership of wispa want to do this.


I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up 
the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not?


It's not that I disagree with any of this, and I'm sure the other paying 
members of wispa and the rest of the board are interested in making a 
statement and will most likely act.


But Mark did not bring this up to the membership. Just the open list.
Mark is a member and he should have brought this up to the membership 
and just tossed eggs at wispa from outside of wispa.


And I think his original post was at midnight last night chastising the 
so called insiders of wispa, accusing the insiders of being in with 
the feds for their personal gain even though he is a paying member of 
wispa and could have easily brought this up at some point in a more 
dignified manner without accusing the insiders of having some sort of 
conspiracy and dereliction of duty.


here is his original post:

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take 
contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother 
and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some 
apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators?


So what was his real message?

I'd like him to explain to the membership what certain others are.

I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do 
something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a 
solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet.


He does though contribute to the wispa promo committee and is very much 
interested in working with wisps and wispa in as an industry 
representative. Which I congratulate him on being right there for us 
when wisps who are in the industry won't even contribute anything.


Actually there was a 2nd and that was Pete Davis who made a darn good 
suggestion that would deflect costs away from the ISP and back towards 
the feds.


Now if we could just get more people to join in and help with some of 
the stuff wispa could be doing, we might be able to get more done and 
stay on top of things.


Right now there are about 500 list dwellers here and only a small 
percentage are paid members.


The paid members are MUCH appreciated, because even if they don't have 
the time to contribute, they at least contributed money to help pay the 
bills and keep wispa alive.


The rest of the list dwellers, who I will assume are in the industry or 
related to the industry also need to consider that the math is easy.

here it is

The MORE people who join in and contribute either with a little money or 
even actions and a little time will mean the MORE wispa can get done.


The LESS people who contribute, the LESS that gets done.

Remember, everyone has day jobs and businesses that takes up most of 
their time, so it's not like we have full time anybodies.


Sincerely

George




Butch Evans wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
on the internet?



This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any concern 
for us here.


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering 
this information or should the burden be carried by the feds 
themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?



THIS is the real issue that ISPs face.  The problem that we all have 
with this is multifaceted.  First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the 
cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many 
cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
(network reconfiguration).  Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
that compliance will be nearly impossible.  Let me provide just a couple 
examples.


First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers.  
For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) 
will be completely useless.


Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
networks.  I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
(one has 8).  These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.


It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
period.  The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for 
many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to 
know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and 
should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We 
don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.



George, this is one area where we disagree.  This is NOT a political