Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. Of course this is AT ISSUE. Or do you exempt yourself from being a citizen and having any concern about intrusion into your life??? Not at all. BUT, IT DOESN'T APPLY TO THIS LIST. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
- Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand > On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: > > >1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of > >Americans on the internet? > > This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any > concern for us here. WHAT??? Of course this is AT ISSUE. Or do you exempt yourself from being a citizen and having any concern about intrusion into your life??? That some of us happen to be part of the businesses in question is merely incidental. Our opinions as businessmen should reflect that issue as well. Or is that too "redneck" these days? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
I think the general thinking is that WISP's shouldn't have to pay to make the Governments' job easier... John >-Original Message- >From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Monday, June 5, 2006 11:29 AM >To: 'WISPA General List' >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand > >I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT >support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue >burden of responsibility on an ISP. > >Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out >the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited >and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and >really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps >of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs >uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me >60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits >nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up >to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic. > >Your total cost on something like this would be >1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to >sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router). >2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost < $500. >3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs. > >This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then >whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a >month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require >120Mbps, once a day. > >I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address >this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with >the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the >business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have >in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for >system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD >because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I >will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is >for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more >than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a >customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 >weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that >things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow >data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing >large FTP downloads. > >Sam Tetherow >Sandhills Wireless > >Butch Evans wrote: >> On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: >> >>> 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans >>> on the internet? >> >> This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern >> for us here. >> >>> 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of >>> gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the >>> feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? >> >> THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have >> with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is >> the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In >> many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect >> (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way >> that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a >> couple examples. >> >> First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. >> For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. AT&T) >> will be completely useless. >> >> Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse >> networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks >> (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either >> one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. >> >> It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any >> requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any >> period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be >> that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair >> for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. >> >>> This thread started out as we should
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue burden of responsibility on an ISP. Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic. Your total cost on something like this would be 1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router). 2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost < $500. 3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs. This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 120Mbps, once a day. I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing large FTP downloads. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a couple examples. First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. AT&T) will be completely useless. Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a "political discussion". This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. OK. If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA? I don't agree with much that Mark had to say (really, it was the "implications" he made that I disagreed with), but his point that there sho
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
Well now I don't feel so alone in my opinions :) I still consider you a wisp, isn't that what brought us all here together? George Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. Which is what I said in my first post on the subject. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not? Yes indeed. BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase only an associate membership. But I do, in fact, agree with this sentiment. I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet. You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I. I suggested that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA membership, that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. Peter's post was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. Which is what I said in my first post on the subject. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not? Yes indeed. BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase only an associate membership. But I do, in fact, agree with this sentiment. I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet. You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I. I suggested that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA membership, that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. Peter's post was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
Butch, Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not? It's not that I disagree with any of this, and I'm sure the other paying members of wispa and the rest of the board are interested in making a statement and will most likely act. But Mark did not bring this up to the "membership". Just the open list. Mark is a "member" and he should have brought this up to the membership and just tossed eggs at wispa from outside of wispa. And I think his original post was at midnight last night chastising the so called "insiders" of wispa, accusing the insiders of being in with the feds for their personal gain even though he is a paying member of wispa and could have easily brought this up at some point in a more dignified manner without accusing the insiders of having some sort of conspiracy and dereliction of duty. here is his original post: "Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators?" So what was his real message? I'd like him to explain to the membership what "certain others" are. I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet. He does though contribute to the wispa promo committee and is very much interested in working with wisps and wispa in as an industry representative. Which I congratulate him on being right there for us when wisps who are in the industry won't even contribute anything. Actually there was a 2nd and that was Pete Davis who made a darn good suggestion that would deflect costs away from the ISP and back towards the feds. Now if we could just get more people to join in and help with some of the stuff wispa could be doing, we might be able to get more done and stay on top of things. Right now there are about 500 list dwellers here and only a small percentage are paid members. The paid members are MUCH appreciated, because even if they don't have the time to contribute, they at least contributed money to help pay the bills and keep wispa alive. The rest of the list dwellers, who I will assume are in the industry or related to the industry also need to consider that the math is easy. here it is The MORE people who join in and contribute either with a little money or even actions and a little time will mean the MORE wispa can get done. The LESS people who contribute, the LESS that gets done. Remember, everyone has day jobs and businesses that takes up most of their time, so it's not like we have full time anybodies. Sincerely George Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a couple examples. First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. AT&T) will be completely useless. Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a "po
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a couple examples. First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. AT&T) will be completely useless. Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a "political discussion". This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. OK. If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA? I don't agree with much that Mark had to say (really, it was the "implications" he made that I disagreed with), but his point that there should be SOME action on the part of WISPA is one that I do agree with. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
While I agree with your breakdown and the general statement that #1 should be decided on by the country as a whole. I think it is up to us as an industry that understands the implications of what is being asked for to make a statement about #1 even if it is just a clarification of the implications of this law. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless George Rogato wrote: I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues at hand. 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread is about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any other ISP org has concerning this issue. One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue. -- Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues at hand. 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread is about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any other ISP org has concerning this issue. One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
