Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
*sigh* this was supposed to be off-list. On Tuesday 25 November 2014 00:36:13 Peter Wu wrote: On Monday 24 November 2014 23:45:11 Andreas Sikkema wrote: Here's an example, a forum that I use quite frequently. When I set Firefox to Dutch, The links for Login and Registration get translated to Aanmelden and Registreren. In my mind, Aanmelden and Registreren both mean Registration. So now I am confsed, which of the links should I follow to login? In dit specifieke geval is het misschien handig om aanmelden als iets korts te zien (loop langs de receptie, zeg even gedag) en registratie als iets uitgebreiders (geef je naam en andere gegevens op). Iets wat misschien vaker voorkomt is dat je een taal pakt wat anderen ook gebruiken om makkelijker logboeken te kunnen lezen, of om makkelijker jouw foutmeldingen door te kunnen geven. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
-Original Message- From: wireshark-dev-boun...@wireshark.org [mailto:wireshark-dev-boun...@wireshark.org] On Behalf Of Peter Wu Sent: den 25 november 2014 09:43 To: Andreas Sikkema Cc: wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Subject: Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference? *sigh* this was supposed to be off-list. On Tuesday 25 November 2014 00:36:13 Peter Wu wrote: On Monday 24 November 2014 23:45:11 Andreas Sikkema wrote: Here's an example, a forum that I use quite frequently. When I set Firefox to Dutch, The links for Login and Registration get translated to Aanmelden and Registreren. In my mind, Aanmelden and Registreren both mean Registration. So now I am confsed, which of the links should I follow to login? In dit specifieke geval is het misschien handig om aanmelden als iets korts te zien (loop langs de receptie, zeg even gedag) en registratie als iets uitgebreiders (geef je naam en andere gegevens op). Iets wat misschien vaker voorkomt is dat je een taal pakt wat anderen ook gebruiken om makkelijker logboeken te kunnen lezen, of om makkelijker jouw foutmeldingen door te kunnen geven. Google translate is funny :-) In this particular case, it might be useful to sign as See something short (walking past the front desk , say hello ) and Registration as more elaborate managers (enter your name and other data ) . Something perhaps more common is that you pick a language which others Use for easier reading logs , or Easier to give your error reports . Which also shows that having translations might give unpredictable results if the translation isn't up to par which may be difficult to check ;-) I don't think I'll ever use a Swedish translation of Wireshark texts. So I'd definitely would like to be able to force it to English should I ever use it on a computer with a Swedish language pack. Regards Anders ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
I know it's a bit late, but I felt I had a reasonable use-case: On 06/11/14 19:54 , Guy Harris wrote: So presumably many of the non-native-English users you know run in mixed mode. Why do they do that? For years I was forced by corporate IT to use the Dutch version of Windows. It was therefore a godsend to be able to configure applications that support it to English. Since most online documentation is in English, and my frame of reference for all things computer is in English, I get lost in Dutch language applications quite quickly. Here's an example, a forum that I use quite frequently. When I set Firefox to Dutch, The links for Login and Registration get translated to Aanmelden and Registreren. In my mind, Aanmelden and Registreren both mean Registration. So now I am confsed, which of the links should I follow to login? -- Andreas Sikkema ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Monday 24 November 2014 23:45:11 Andreas Sikkema wrote: Here's an example, a forum that I use quite frequently. When I set Firefox to Dutch, The links for Login and Registration get translated to Aanmelden and Registreren. In my mind, Aanmelden and Registreren both mean Registration. So now I am confsed, which of the links should I follow to login? In dit specifieke geval is het misschien handig om aanmelden als iets korts te zien (loop langs de receptie, zeg even gedag) en registratie als iets uitgebreiders (geef je naam en andere gegevens op). Iets wat misschien vaker voorkomt is dat je een taal pakt wat anderen ook gebruiken om makkelijker logboeken te kunnen lezen, of om makkelijker jouw foutmeldingen door te kunnen geven. -- Kind regards, Peter https://lekensteyn.nl ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On 11/07/14 11:51, Guy Harris wrote: On Nov 7, 2014, at 5:30 AM, Fulko Hew fulko@gmail.com wrote: Here's my take on the subject (not that it happens often) ... Sometimes I may find myself having to use someone else's computer in some other country. That machine has been set to the local country and language and keyboard. As an English speaking Canadian I sometimes get frustrated when confronted with an unusual keyboard or language setting and still need to get my job done. Finding and changing 'system' settings and/or reboots or logouts to change the settings to something so that I can now use Wireshark (or other apps) ... can... at times ... be frustrating. Having such a localized mechanism could, in those rare moments, relieve my frustrations (If I could remember it existed, and be able to find it when needed.) (Just to beat the dead horse further... Or at least add my $.02) +1 but I'd add the case where I'm looking over someone's shoulder helping them debug a [network] problem or trying to show them a cool Wireshark feature. Localized as in per-application? Per-application mechanisms would merely replace having to [find] and change 'system settings with having to find and change individual application settings; that part doesn't sound like an improvement. Yes, per-application. While Italian is close enough to French for me to muddle my way through Wireshark-in-Italian I doubt very much I'd have the same luck with Wireshark-in-Chinese (I know Wireshark's menus pretty well by now but not *that* well). And the Italian or Chinese guy whose shoulder I'm looking over would probably be pretty grumpy if I suggested s/he change his entire locale just so this ignorant American could read his own language. Not to mention the fact his/her computer might not even have the English locale information installed (I'm pretty sure my Fedora systems don't have the Chinese locale installed; though maybe English is always installed since many popular OS originate from English-speaking locales?). As for the reboots/logouts, that's either 1) a deficiency in the underlying desktop environment (not delivering language changed or system setting changed notification, or not being able to do much of the work of responding to those events in the core toolkit, thus forcing every application developer to write their own boilerplate code to handle that) or 2) laziness on the part of application developers (if, for whatever reason, they have to opt in to responding to those events - that's why the toolkit should do as much of the work as possible). Sure but until the reboots/logouts aren't required we shouldn't torture our users by making them use the workaround. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Thus wrote Guy Harris (g...@alum.mit.edu): In the best of all possible worlds, the only people who would have a reason to use something other than the system language would be people testing translations or reproducing bugs and testing fixes and that's definitely something that we'll have to do a lot before our translations (and their framework) are working ok. Therefore, I'd be happy to keep the preference for changing the language, especially now that a change takes effect immediately without a restart. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: ... snip ... I'm *really* trying to understand the reasons why an additional select the language option, over and above a system select the language option, is useful, and whether it's useful in *all* environments or only in ones where there isn't a system select the language option. Here's my take on the subject (not that it happens often) ... Sometimes I may find myself having to use someone else's computer in some other country. That machine has been set to the local country and language and keyboard. As an English speaking Canadian I sometimes get frustrated when confronted with an unusual keyboard or language setting and still need to get my job done. Finding and changing 'system' settings and/or reboots or logouts to change the settings to something so that I can now use Wireshark (or other apps) ... can... at times ... be frustrating. Having such a localized mechanism could, in those rare moments, relieve my frustrations (If I could remember it existed, and be able to find it when needed.) Fulko ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 10:59 PM, Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com wrote: Ability to change language is needed. But the real question is those names should be translated or not. For example KDE do that. Do you mean that all the languages' names are translated into the *current* language? If so, that's absolutely the wrong idea. The right idea is to do what OS X and Windows do: show each language's name *in that language*. I.e., don't translate *any* of the language names out of the language referred to by the name, not even into the current system language. KDE also provide two options: System language (Polish); No language (standard), where second one I assume is language in C++ code. The KDE 4 on my Fedora 16 virtual machine provides, in the Languages tab of the Country/Region Language pane of System Settings, a list of available languages and a list of preferred languages. You can move languages from the first list into the second list. The languages in the second list are the ones used for applications; I infer from the pop-up tip for that list that, to pick a language for an application, KDE will check the first language in the list to see if there's a translation available and, if not, it'll check the second language in the list, etc., and fall back on US English if it finds no translations for any of the preferred languages. Where are the two options you mention offered? If names will be translated - how to provide user ability to change language when it may does not current language (for example English guy, that does not know Chinese). Or maybe flags solve this issue? Doing what OS X and Windows do solve this issue. No matter *what* the current system language, English will be displayed as English, French will be displayed as Français, etc.. This may make life a bit harder for somebody who wants to set the system language to a language they can't read even to the extent of being able to recognize the language's own name, but that's probably rare enough that they can just use Google Translate. However, it makes life easier for somebody confronted with a system configured to a language that they can't read who wants to switch the system to a language they *can* read (to the extent of being able to recognize the language's name in that language). Please not that in one thing Wireshark do translation better than KDE, because we can change translation without restart application We can override the system language, or revert to the system language, without restarting the application. A KDE application could also do that, if it were to offer its own language settings. What KDE doesn't do - and what we don't do, either! - is dynamically change translation if the *system language* is changed. Windows doesn't seem to do that, either, and the Apple App Store app, at least, doesn't do it on OS X. Ideally: 1) the desktop environment would deliver to all applications a system language changed event; 2) the toolkit's event loop would handle as much of that event as possible, and would deliver an event to the application, if it asks to be notified of those changes, so that it could change whatever the toolkit can't handle automatically. I don't know whether Windows, OS X, KDE, GNOME, or any other desktop environment bothers to notify applications of system language changes; if not, that's why you get those you'll have to restart to get the new language or only applications started after this point will get the new language, applications already running won't change dialogs. (Mis-named because it should be something such as System setting, to indicate what defines the language. I'll fix that.) Please do not do that. This will be a bug, because Wireshark does not support all possible system languages (for example Czech), so real language is not system, but Wireshark origin (English [in details: C]). Auto sounds better in this case. Auto sounds wrong, as there's nothing automatic about it. Auto-detect means that a user sits down in front of the computer and the computer automatically figures out what the language setting should be, *without* the system having been configured for their language and *without* the user having to set a language preference. That's *not* what's happening here. What's happening here is that Wireshark is getting the system locale: http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qlocale.html#system which is the locale that the person who set up the machine, or the user, has *manually* configured, and uses that, falling back on English if that's unavailable. If you can come up with a name that does not contain the string auto anywhere in it and that accurately reflects the fallback to English for languages for which Wireshark has no translation, that'd be great. Auto-Detect, however, is not the correct answer. Next question: currently Wiresharl fallback to C language. Should
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 7, 2014, at 5:30 AM, Fulko Hew fulko@gmail.com wrote: Here's my take on the subject (not that it happens often) ... Sometimes I may find myself having to use someone else's computer in some other country. That machine has been set to the local country and language and keyboard. As an English speaking Canadian I sometimes get frustrated when confronted with an unusual keyboard or language setting and still need to get my job done. Finding and changing 'system' settings and/or reboots or logouts to change the settings to something so that I can now use Wireshark (or other apps) ... can... at times ... be frustrating. Having such a localized mechanism could, in those rare moments, relieve my frustrations (If I could remember it existed, and be able to find it when needed.) Localized as in per-application? Per-application mechanisms would merely replace having to [find] and change 'system settings with having to find and change individual application settings; that part doesn't sound like an improvement. As for the reboots/logouts, that's either 1) a deficiency in the underlying desktop environment (not delivering language changed or system setting changed notification, or not being able to do much of the work of responding to those events in the core toolkit, thus forcing every application developer to write their own boilerplate code to handle that) or 2) laziness on the part of application developers (if, for whatever reason, they have to opt in to responding to those events - that's why the toolkit should do as much of the work as possible). ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: On Nov 6, 2014, at 10:59 PM, Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com wrote: Ability to change language is needed. But the real question is those names should be translated or not. For example KDE do that. Do you mean that all the languages' names are translated into the *current* language? If so, that's absolutely the wrong idea. The right idea is to do what OS X and Windows do: show each language's name *in that language*. I.e., don't translate *any* of the language names out of the language referred to by the name, not even into the current system language. KDE also provide two options: System language (Polish); No language (standard), where second one I assume is language in C++ code. The KDE 4 on my Fedora 16 virtual machine provides, in the Languages tab of the Country/Region Language pane of System Settings, a list of available languages and a list of preferred languages. You can move languages from the first list into the second list. The languages in the second list are the ones used for applications; I infer from the pop-up tip for that list that, to pick a language for an application, KDE will check the first language in the list to see if there's a translation available and, if not, it'll check the second language in the list, etc., and fall back on US English if it finds no translations for any of the preferred languages. Where are the two options you mention offered? If names will be translated - how to provide user ability to change language when it may does not current language (for example English guy, that does not know Chinese). Or maybe flags solve this issue? Doing what OS X and Windows do solve this issue. No matter *what* the current system language, English will be displayed as English, French will be displayed as Français, etc.. This may make life a bit harder for somebody who wants to set the system language to a language they can't read even to the extent of being able to recognize the language's own name, but that's probably rare enough that they can just use Google Translate. However, it makes life easier for somebody confronted with a system configured to a language that they can't read who wants to switch the system to a language they *can* read (to the extent of being able to recognize the language's name in that language). You need to fix this issue... actually, it is possible to translate the list of language... (it is may be why Michal add the flag of country... ;-)) ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:10 PM, Alexis La Goutte alexis.lagou...@gmail.com wrote: You need to fix this issue... actually, it is possible to translate the list of language... Is there any good reason why having a list of language that, for example, goes ... in French-speaking locales, and so on? why having a list of languageS that, for example, goes ... and so on *is a good idea*? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:10 PM, Alexis La Goutte alexis.lagou...@gmail.com wrote: You need to fix this issue... actually, it is possible to translate the list of language... Is there any good reason why having a list of language that, for example, goes English French ... rather than English Français ... in English-speaking locales, and goes Anglais Français ... rather than English Français ... in French-speaking locales, and so on? And so on here would include many locales *not* using the Roman alphabet, so, in those locales, people who don't know the scripts used in those locales might find it impossible to recognize their own language, as Michal pointed out. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 18:31 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu: On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 11:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. +1. Most software I use allow me to manually override the language without messing with the environment variables. Do you use any GUI applications other than Wireshark? Yes, tons of as I'm on Windows :) On what operating system do you use them? See above Do they all offer a manual language override, so that you can set a particular application's language independently of your personal global language setting? The only ones I can think to supporting multiple languages without a GUI option to set it are... command line based coming from Linux world (like mercurial) and here I do use the environment variable. But it's more painful for a lazy guy and not a common use case for a standard Windows user I think. Moreover I prefer to have a good interface in English rather than a partial / bad French translation :) And here we are talking about a functionality we already have. This is functionality we have in the Qt version, which most people aren't using, and which is still incomplete. I.e., it's functionality we have in a version under development. Agreed, but it's also the first time we introduce language support so it's the right time to discuss this kind of thing. I do not at all agree with, and will never agree with, the belief that removing existing functionality is inherently wrong. If the functionality is unused, or is rarely used and if its capabilities can be achieved in another way, I consider that a very good reason to consider removing it. I understand your point. On the other point it's really common practice (at least on Windows) to allow user to select the language from the GUI. Removing it would be a big loss in my opinion. In what ways is it used that its disappearance would be a big loss rather than, at most, a minor loss? For me: a minor loss as I know the environment variables allowing to override it. For the common Windows user, it might be a bigger loss. Pascal. Hi, Like other no English people, i want to have the choose to select the language on Gui. For me, it is a not a problem to have a option to choose the language (there is a lot of option/preference on Wireshark...) For some software, it is possible to select the language when you install the software, but no very fan to this option... Regards, ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
In what ways is it used that its disappearance would be a big loss rather than, at most, a minor loss? For me: big loss How to inform user that Wireshark support some translations if you remove user choose of it? It will be big problem for users. I check some applications: assistant, designer works in Guy Harris mode, but more advanced like Qt Creator (https://qt-project.org/doc/qtcreator-2.6/creator-faq.html), Firefox let user choose language. See how do that Pidgin: https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/Using%20Pidgin#HowdoesPidginforWindowsdeterminewhichlanguagetouse - How do I change the language of Pidgin? For the user who installed Pidgin, the language selected during installation will be the default. This can be overridden by setting the PIDGINLANG environment variable (for example, PIDGINLANG=de). If neither of these are specified, it will fall back to the default Windows user locale setting. Note that if the translation for the specified language isn't present, Pidgin will fall back to the English default. See below for how to install additional translations. 1. Install the translation using the installer if it is not already installed. To do this, select the appropriate 'Localization' component from the 'Components selection' screen. You will have to select the ISO-code (the Alpha-2 code from this table) of the desired language. Once this is done, you should see the installed translations in the locale subdirectory of the directory where you installed Pidgin(%ProgramFiles%\Pidgin by default) - there will be one folder per language. 2. Select the language of your preference setting the PIDGINLANG environment variable (add it if it isn't already there) to the ISO-code of the desired language. (Start Settings Control Panel System Advanced Environment Variables) 3. Restart Pidgin - In my opinion this is not easy! Wireshark current solution is much better. Please note that I use English Wireshark, when Polish translation will be available I will use it on my English Ubuntu, but in home I want to use Italian Wireshark and sometimes Polish/English. Set language in GUI is really helpful. And... we can change default behaviour and add possibility to change language in runtime, without saving this preference. Using environment variable is not user friendly. On 5 November 2014 19:00, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 18:31 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu: On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 11:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. +1. Most software I use allow me to manually override the language without messing with the environment variables. Do you use any GUI applications other than Wireshark? Yes, tons of as I'm on Windows :) On what operating system do you use them? See above Do they all offer a manual language override, so that you can set a particular application's language independently of your personal global language setting? The only ones I can think to supporting multiple languages without a GUI option to set it are... command line based coming from Linux world (like mercurial) and here I do use the environment variable. But it's more painful for a lazy guy and not a common use case for a standard Windows user I think. Moreover I prefer to have a good interface in English rather than a partial / bad French translation :) And here we are talking about a functionality we already have. This is functionality we have in the Qt version, which most people aren't using, and which is still incomplete. I.e., it's functionality we have in a version under development. Agreed, but it's also the first time we introduce language support so it's the right time to discuss this kind of thing. I do not at all agree with, and will never agree with, the belief that removing existing functionality is inherently wrong. If the functionality is unused, or is rarely used and if its capabilities can be achieved in another way, I consider that a very good reason to consider removing it. I understand your point. On the other point it's really common practice (at least on Windows) to allow user to select the language from the GUI. Removing it would be a big loss in my opinion. In what ways is it used that its disappearance would be a big loss rather than, at most, a minor loss? For me: a minor loss as I know the environment variables allowing to override it. For the
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Hi, I am also in favor of letting the user decide about language used on runtime. Let the default language set be the system language. One use case that is probably not so rare, is that You have a system language that is not supported yet by Wireshark. User should be able to choose from available languages the one he knows best. And that is not always english. On 6 November 2014 10:32, Alexis La Goutte alexis.lagou...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 18:31 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu: On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 11:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. +1. Most software I use allow me to manually override the language without messing with the environment variables. Do you use any GUI applications other than Wireshark? Yes, tons of as I'm on Windows :) On what operating system do you use them? See above Do they all offer a manual language override, so that you can set a particular application's language independently of your personal global language setting? The only ones I can think to supporting multiple languages without a GUI option to set it are... command line based coming from Linux world (like mercurial) and here I do use the environment variable. But it's more painful for a lazy guy and not a common use case for a standard Windows user I think. Moreover I prefer to have a good interface in English rather than a partial / bad French translation :) And here we are talking about a functionality we already have. This is functionality we have in the Qt version, which most people aren't using, and which is still incomplete. I.e., it's functionality we have in a version under development. Agreed, but it's also the first time we introduce language support so it's the right time to discuss this kind of thing. I do not at all agree with, and will never agree with, the belief that removing existing functionality is inherently wrong. If the functionality is unused, or is rarely used and if its capabilities can be achieved in another way, I consider that a very good reason to consider removing it. I understand your point. On the other point it's really common practice (at least on Windows) to allow user to select the language from the GUI. Removing it would be a big loss in my opinion. In what ways is it used that its disappearance would be a big loss rather than, at most, a minor loss? For me: a minor loss as I know the environment variables allowing to override it. For the common Windows user, it might be a bigger loss. Pascal. Hi, Like other no English people, i want to have the choose to select the language on Gui. For me, it is a not a problem to have a option to choose the language (there is a lot of option/preference on Wireshark...) For some software, it is possible to select the language when you install the software, but no very fan to this option... Regards, ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org ?subject=unsubscribe -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards Michał Orynicz, Software Engineer Tieto Corporation Product Development Services http://www.tieto.com / http://www.tieto.pl --- ASCII: Michal Orynicz location: Swobodna 1 Street, 50-088 Wrocław, Poland room: 5.01 (desk next to 5.08) --- Please note: The information contained in this message may be legally privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorised use, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. --- Please consider the environment before printing this
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 1:32 AM, Alexis La Goutte alexis.lagou...@gmail.com wrote: Like other no English people, i want to have the choose to select the language on Gui. For me, it is a not a problem to have a option to choose the language (there is a lot of option/preference on Wireshark...) Perhaps it shouldn't have as many. For some software, it is possible to select the language when you install the software, but no very fan to this option... Does not the operating system have an option to allow a user to select a language? Why does that not suffice for non-developer users? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 1:35 AM, Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com wrote: In what ways is it used that its disappearance would be a big loss rather than, at most, a minor loss? For me: big loss How to inform user that Wireshark support some translations if you remove user choose of it? Presumably you mean inform the user which, of the languages that the OS offers, Wireshark does and doesn't support, as the OS presumably offers a set of languages in a system-wide configuration GUI, e.g. the Language and Text pane in the System Preferences application in OS X, the Locale pane in System Settings in KDE, and the Region and Language pane in the Control Panel in Windows 7. It will be big problem for users. I check some applications: assistant, designer works in Guy Harris mode, but more advanced like Qt Creator (https://qt-project.org/doc/qtcreator-2.6/creator-faq.html), Firefox let user choose language. So is having a per-application language setting, over and above the system language setting, common? If so, on what platforms is it common? See how do that Pidgin: https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/Using%20Pidgin#HowdoesPidginforWindowsdeterminewhichlanguagetouse - How do I change the language of Pidgin? For the user who installed Pidgin, the language selected during installation will be the default. This can be overridden by setting the PIDGINLANG environment variable (for example, PIDGINLANG=de). If neither of these are specified, it will fall back to the default Windows user locale setting. How often do Pidgin users use anything other than the Windows user locale setting? In my opinion this is not easy! Wireshark current solution is much better. Please note that I use English Wireshark, when Polish translation will be available I will use it on my English Ubuntu, Would you use Polish as part of the process of developing the translation? Why would you use English for other applications and Polish for Wireshark? but in home I want to use Italian Wireshark and sometimes Polish/English. Set language in GUI is really helpful. Is the ability to set the language on a *per-application* basis, rather than on a system-wide basis, really helpful to very many users? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Guy Harris wrote: but in home I want to use Italian Wireshark and sometimes Polish/English. Set language in GUI is really helpful. Is the ability to set the language on a *per-application* basis, rather than on a system-wide basis, really helpful to very many users? It doesn't seem so to me, although I sometimes use different locales. If I wanted to set language per-application in Windows, it can still easily be done with a batch file by setting the environment variable first. I would note, too, that QtLinguist, whose authors may actually have considered this issue, does respect the system locale, but does not provide a separate means of setting the language. Ed ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
I have LC_ALL=en_GB.UTF8, but KDE and Firefox set to Polish. So Wireshark needs to be set to Polish too. So some applications I have in Polish, other in English. I think it is common case if you are not native English. By the way Guy, are you native English? (what languages do you know?) There is another example: iOS. There are many application in AppStore. But some application allow you to choose language by GUI. Of course you can change language of whole OS, but it is slow and not expected. It seems that there is no other method to change language. it can still easily be done with a batch file Most people do not know to do it. For example me (Windows user when I am young; currently Linux user). Batch file is a hack, it is not right way to set preferences. -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards - Michał Łabędzki, Software Engineer Tieto Corporation Product Development Services http://www.tieto.com / http://www.tieto.pl --- ASCII: Michal Labedzki location: Swobodna 1 Street, 50-088 Wrocław, Poland room: 5.01 (desk next to 5.08) --- Please note: The information contained in this message may be legally privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorised use, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. --- Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Tieto Poland spółka z ograniczoną odpowiedzialnością z siedzibą w Szczecinie, ul. Malczewskiego 26. Zarejestrowana w Sądzie Rejonowym Szczecin-Centrum w Szczecinie, XIII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego pod numerem 124858. NIP: 8542085557. REGON: 812023656. Kapitał zakładowy: 4 271500 PLN ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Hi Guy, What the problem to have a setting for select language ? Regards, ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 5:58 AM, Alexis La Goutte alexis.lagou...@gmail.com wrote: What the problem to have a setting for select language ? It's One More Setting, and clutters the preferences GUI. If the vast majority of users would always use their system-wide language setting, with the users who don't being, for example, developers working on translations, and there's a way to, for example, override it with an environment variable, perhaps that's sufficient. If, however, a significant number of multilingual users run with a mixed environment, with some applications using one language for the UI and other using different languages, then a preference might make sense. But, in the latter case, the broader question why? should be asked - what advantage does having some applications say File in the menu bar, with options such as Open under it, and others say Fichier, with Ouvrir under it, at the same time, have over all applications saying File/Open or all applications saying Fichier/Ouvrir? Is this because it's *inherently* useful, or is it just a workaround under some problem best fixed in some other fashion? (I.e., throw a user choice at it should be treated as a last-resort solution to problems that cannot be easily solved in other, more automatic, fashions, not as the right solution to all problems.) Speaking of a cluttered preference GUI: is there any reason *not* to Remember main window size and placement? is there any reason *not* to open files in the most recently used folder, at least on desktop environments where that's the default? is there any reason, on DEs that have a global how many recent documents to keep in the Recent list preference, to have a separate setting for that in Wireshark? what does Automatically scroll packet details do? And what is the Packet detail scroll percentage? in DEs where there's a standard way to request whether to display a toolbar as icons, text, icons+text, such as Control+Click on the toolbar in OS X, is there any reason to have that in the preferences window? should we have a preference pane for columns, or should we have a View menu that lets the user select which columns to view, with a Custom... item that pops up a dialog to add a custom column to that list, and with re-ordering columns done by dragging columns? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 3:57 AM, Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com wrote: I have LC_ALL=en_GB.UTF8, but KDE and Firefox set to Polish. So Wireshark needs to be set to Polish too. So some applications I have in Polish, other in English. So why do you work in a mixed mode like that? I think it is common case if you are not native English. So presumably many of the non-native-English users you know run in mixed mode. Why do they do that? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: And as I said in an earlier email, letting a user manually select the language in an application is common practice on Windows. So what are some examples of applications that support this? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Hi Guy, Right now, iTunes, SoftMaker Office, Shareaza, RealPlayer, and Google Chrome are the most apparent examples (from memory) of relatively-popular applications for Windows that expose a preference in their configuration GUIs, to support changing the program language on-the-fly. I'm sure that there are others, too... Tyson. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
2014-11-06 20:33 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu: On Nov 6, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: And as I said in an earlier email, letting a user manually select the language in an application is common practice on Windows. So what are some examples of applications that support this? To name a few of them: Notepad++, CCleaner, Defraggler, LibreOffice, VirtualBox, jv16 Power Tools, VLC, PDFCreator, SumatraPDF... To simplify things, applications seem to fall in 2 categories: either you download a specific package with just your language, or a global installer where user can override at any time the language. Pascal. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote:
2014-11-06 20:33 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu:
On Nov 6, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote:
And as I said in an earlier email, letting a user manually select the
language in an application is common practice on Windows.
So what are some examples of applications that support this?
To name a few of them: Notepad++, CCleaner, Defraggler, LibreOffice,
VirtualBox, jv16 Power Tools, VLC, PDFCreator, SumatraPDF...
To simplify things, applications seem to fall in 2 categories: either you
download a specific package with just your language, or a global installer
where user can override at any time the language.
Would another two categories be:
applications from the free software community, which support manually
setting the language;
applications not from the free software community, which don't?
I.e., are there any applications not from the free software community that
support this?
If not, why not? Is it because the free software community are paying more
attention to user needs, or is it because a lot of them come from the
UNIX+{X11,Wayland,Mir} desktop world, in which not all desktops necessarily
offer a system-wide GUI option to select the language (KDE does, GNOME
presumably does, but other desktop environments, especially the here's a
window manager, that's enough environments, might not).
I'm *really* trying to understand the reasons why an additional select the
language option, over and above a system select the language option, is
useful, and whether it's useful in *all* environments or only in ones where
there isn't a system select the language option.
On Windows 7, the only defaults to English version that supports multiple
languages appears to be Windows 7 Ultimate. Do the non-English versions of,
for example, Windows 7 Home Premium offer multiple languages? Do the standard
Windows 7 Home Premium and Professional versions sold in Canada offer both
English and French? Do versions sold in Europe - or, at least, in multilingual
European countries such as Switzerland and Belgium - offer multiple languages?
Was that another reason to offer a separate select the language option in the
application itself? (Was because Windows 8 appears to support multilingual
installations in all versions.)
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Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
2014-11-06 21:58 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu:
On Nov 6, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com
wrote:
2014-11-06 20:33 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu:
On Nov 6, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com
wrote:
And as I said in an earlier email, letting a user manually select the
language in an application is common practice on Windows.
So what are some examples of applications that support this?
To name a few of them: Notepad++, CCleaner, Defraggler, LibreOffice,
VirtualBox, jv16 Power Tools, VLC, PDFCreator, SumatraPDF...
To simplify things, applications seem to fall in 2 categories: either
you download a specific package with just your language, or a global
installer where user can override at any time the language.
Would another two categories be:
applications from the free software community, which support
manually setting the language;
applications not from the free software community, which don't?
I.e., are there any applications not from the free software community that
support this?
As almost all software installed on my computer are from the free software
community, I cannot fully answer this question. Total Commander does but as
it is a Shareware, I'm not sure in which category you would classify it.
jv16 Power Tools is a commercial software, but was created from an
initially free one. Maybe others could give better examples.
If not, why not? Is it because the free software community are paying
more attention to user needs, or is it because a lot of them come from the
UNIX+{X11,Wayland,Mir} desktop world, in which not all desktops necessarily
offer a system-wide GUI option to select the language (KDE does, GNOME
presumably does, but other desktop environments, especially the here's a
window manager, that's enough environments, might not).
Not sure, but what I can tell you is that several of the programs I listed
above are only available on Windows and offer this option. Definitely free
community seem to pay more attention to user needs, maybe simply because
people contribute so as to improve their own experience when using those
software.
I'm *really* trying to understand the reasons why an additional select
the language option, over and above a system select the language option,
is useful, and whether it's useful in *all* environments or only in ones
where there isn't a system select the language option.
You seem to assume that all language translations are at the same quality
as English. This is unfortunately not the case, especially for small
projects not having a big community putting a lot of effort for maintaining
an always evolving translation over the time. This is definitely a huge
work and I admire people devoting time to this.
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Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-06 21:58 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu: I'm *really* trying to understand the reasons why an additional select the language option, over and above a system select the language option, is useful, and whether it's useful in *all* environments or only in ones where there isn't a system select the language option. You seem to assume that all language translations are at the same quality as English. This is unfortunately not the case, especially for small projects not having a big community putting a lot of effort for maintaining an always evolving translation over the time. This is definitely a huge work and I admire people devoting time to this. So this may be a function of large commercial projects, or large widely-used free software projects, with the resources to provide good translations for heavily-used languages and at least reasonably good translations for less-heavily-used languages (I'm assuming here, perhaps incorrectly, that the core applications for KDE and GNOME have good translations for a broad set of languages) vs. software from smaller commercial developers and smaller free-software communities that might not have the resources for that. I.e., Microsoft Office for Windows might not have much use for a select the language option if Microsoft have the resources to do reasonably good translations for all languages Windows supports, and Konqueror or KWrite might not have much use for that if they have a contributor base that can provide translations for all languages KDE supports, but other apps might require an override the system language setting option to work around the lack of a good translation for the system language. Wireshark probably doesn't have the user base that less specialized applications do, so it might fall into the latter category. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 6, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: If the vast majority of users would always use their system-wide language setting, with the users who don't being, for example, developers working on translations, and there's a way to, for example, override it with an environment variable, perhaps that's sufficient. And if Wireshark doesn't obey the system-wide language setting with the (mis-named) Auto setting for language (I'm looking at *you*, Qt Wireshark on KDE 4...), that's a bug and needs to be fixed. (Mis-named because it should be something such as System setting, to indicate what defines the language. I'll fix that.) ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Ability to change language is needed. But the real question is those names should be translated or not. For example KDE do that. KDE also provide two options: System language (Polish); No language (standard), where second one I assume is language in C++ code. If names will be translated - how to provide user ability to change language when it may does not current language (for example English guy, that does not know Chinese). Or maybe flags solve this issue? Please not that in one thing Wireshark do translation better than KDE, because we can change translation without restart application (Mis-named because it should be something such as System setting, to indicate what defines the language. I'll fix that.) Please do not do that. This will be a bug, because Wireshark does not support all possible system languages (for example Czech), so real language is not system, but Wireshark origin (English [in details: C]). Auto sounds better in this case. Next question: currently Wiresharl fallback to C language. Should fallback to English. As I remember translation from C to English is for tuning it. Additional question: Is English (*.ts) translation GB or US (or other)? By the way: Wireshark can be better than other software - it can have ability to change language in GUI. It is a feature. I will use that [often than preference like auto scroll] On 7 November 2014 00:45, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: On Nov 6, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: If the vast majority of users would always use their system-wide language setting, with the users who don't being, for example, developers working on translations, and there's a way to, for example, override it with an environment variable, perhaps that's sufficient. And if Wireshark doesn't obey the system-wide language setting with the (mis-named) Auto setting for language (I'm looking at *you*, Qt Wireshark on KDE 4...), that's a bug and needs to be fixed. (Mis-named because it should be something such as System setting, to indicate what defines the language. I'll fix that.) ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards - Michał Łabędzki, Software Engineer Tieto Corporation Product Development Services http://www.tieto.com / http://www.tieto.pl --- ASCII: Michal Labedzki location: Swobodna 1 Street, 50-088 Wrocław, Poland room: 5.01 (desk next to 5.08) --- Please note: The information contained in this message may be legally privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorised use, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. --- Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Tieto Poland spółka z ograniczoną odpowiedzialnością z siedzibą w Szczecinie, ul. Malczewskiego 26. Zarejestrowana w Sądzie Rejonowym Szczecin-Centrum w Szczecinie, XIII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego pod numerem 124858. NIP: 8542085557. REGON: 812023656. Kapitał zakładowy: 4 271500 PLN ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Hi Guy The answer is yes. I live in italy, but I use linux in english. I switch to en or it for the specific purpose of the moment. With auto-detect I could't do that. For my daily use I switch to EN. To develop/test wireshark italian translation I switch to IT. I don't know if this scenario applies to others, but for me getting rid of a functionality that is still in place is not a good approach. Have a nice day. Dario. On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: I.e., are there reasons, on any platforms, to set the Language preference to anything other than Auto-Detect? As far as I know, on all supported platforms (Windows, OS X, UN*Xes other than OS X) the Qt system locale gets the locale information from the appropriate place on the OS. Is there ever a need to override your global language setting? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Hi Dario, 2014-11-05 9:31 GMT+01:00 Dario Lombardo dario.lombardo...@gmail.com: Hi Guy The answer is yes. I live in italy, but I use linux in english. I switch to en or it for the specific purpose of the moment. With auto-detect I could't do that. For my daily use I switch to EN. To develop/test wireshark italian translation I switch to IT. I don't know if this scenario applies to others, but for me getting rid of a functionality that is still in place is not a good approach. It sounds like a very atypical use-case. Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark instead of asking the project to keep the language-switching feature. The less code we maintain the better we can do it. Cheers, Balint Have a nice day. Dario. On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: I.e., are there reasons, on any platforms, to set the Language preference to anything other than Auto-Detect? As far as I know, on all supported platforms (Windows, OS X, UN*Xes other than OS X) the Qt system locale gets the locale information from the appropriate place on the OS. Is there ever a need to override your global language setting? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Bálint Réczey bal...@balintreczey.hu wrote: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark instead of asking the project to keep the language-switching feature. Thanks for your suggestion. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. The less code we maintain the better we can do it. This is only true in case that we do not lose any feature (or user experience) On 5 November 2014 10:52, Bálint Réczey bal...@balintreczey.hu wrote: Hi Dario, 2014-11-05 9:31 GMT+01:00 Dario Lombardo dario.lombardo...@gmail.com: Hi Guy The answer is yes. I live in italy, but I use linux in english. I switch to en or it for the specific purpose of the moment. With auto-detect I could't do that. For my daily use I switch to EN. To develop/test wireshark italian translation I switch to IT. I don't know if this scenario applies to others, but for me getting rid of a functionality that is still in place is not a good approach. It sounds like a very atypical use-case. Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark instead of asking the project to keep the language-switching feature. The less code we maintain the better we can do it. Cheers, Balint Have a nice day. Dario. On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: I.e., are there reasons, on any platforms, to set the Language preference to anything other than Auto-Detect? As far as I know, on all supported platforms (Windows, OS X, UN*Xes other than OS X) the Qt system locale gets the locale information from the appropriate place on the OS. Is there ever a need to override your global language setting? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards - Michał Łabędzki, Software Engineer Tieto Corporation Product Development Services http://www.tieto.com / http://www.tieto.pl --- ASCII: Michal Labedzki location: Swobodna 1 Street, 50-088 Wrocław, Poland room: 5.01 (desk next to 5.08) --- Please note: The information contained in this message may be legally privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorised use, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. --- Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Tieto Poland spółka z ograniczoną odpowiedzialnością z siedzibą w Szczecinie, ul. Malczewskiego 26. Zarejestrowana w Sądzie Rejonowym Szczecin-Centrum w Szczecinie, XIII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego pod numerem 124858. NIP: 8542085557. REGON: 812023656. Kapitał zakładowy: 4 271500 PLN ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
2014-11-05 11:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. +1. Most software I use allow me to manually override the language without messing with the environment variables. And here we are talking about a functionality we already have. Removing it would be a big loss in my opinion. The less code we maintain the better we can do it. This is only true in case that we do not lose any feature (or user experience) On 5 November 2014 10:52, Bálint Réczey bal...@balintreczey.hu wrote: Hi Dario, 2014-11-05 9:31 GMT+01:00 Dario Lombardo dario.lombardo...@gmail.com: Hi Guy The answer is yes. I live in italy, but I use linux in english. I switch to en or it for the specific purpose of the moment. With auto-detect I could't do that. For my daily use I switch to EN. To develop/test wireshark italian translation I switch to IT. I don't know if this scenario applies to others, but for me getting rid of a functionality that is still in place is not a good approach. It sounds like a very atypical use-case. Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark instead of asking the project to keep the language-switching feature. The less code we maintain the better we can do it. Cheers, Balint Have a nice day. Dario. On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: I.e., are there reasons, on any platforms, to set the Language preference to anything other than Auto-Detect? As far as I know, on all supported platforms (Windows, OS X, UN*Xes other than OS X) the Qt system locale gets the locale information from the appropriate place on the OS. Is there ever a need to override your global language setting? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org ?subject=unsubscribe -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards - Michał Łabędzki, Software Engineer Tieto Corporation Product Development Services http://www.tieto.com / http://www.tieto.pl --- ASCII: Michal Labedzki location: Swobodna 1 Street, 50-088 Wrocław, Poland room: 5.01 (desk next to 5.08) --- Please note: The information contained in this message may be legally privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorised use, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. --- Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Tieto Poland spółka z ograniczoną odpowiedzialnością z siedzibą w Szczecinie, ul. Malczewskiego 26. Zarejestrowana w Sądzie Rejonowym Szczecin-Centrum w Szczecinie, XIII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego pod numerem 124858. NIP: 8542085557. REGON: 812023656. Kapitał zakładowy: 4 271500 PLN ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
Hi Pascal, 2014-11-05 11:30 GMT+01:00 Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com: 2014-11-05 11:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. +1. Most software I use allow me to manually override the language without messing with the environment variables. And here we are talking about a functionality we already have. Removing it would be a big loss in my opinion. If it is important for many many users, I'm OK with keeping it. Cheers, Balint The less code we maintain the better we can do it. This is only true in case that we do not lose any feature (or user experience) On 5 November 2014 10:52, Bálint Réczey bal...@balintreczey.hu wrote: Hi Dario, 2014-11-05 9:31 GMT+01:00 Dario Lombardo dario.lombardo...@gmail.com: Hi Guy The answer is yes. I live in italy, but I use linux in english. I switch to en or it for the specific purpose of the moment. With auto-detect I could't do that. For my daily use I switch to EN. To develop/test wireshark italian translation I switch to IT. I don't know if this scenario applies to others, but for me getting rid of a functionality that is still in place is not a good approach. It sounds like a very atypical use-case. Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark instead of asking the project to keep the language-switching feature. The less code we maintain the better we can do it. Cheers, Balint Have a nice day. Dario. On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu wrote: I.e., are there reasons, on any platforms, to set the Language preference to anything other than Auto-Detect? As far as I know, on all supported platforms (Windows, OS X, UN*Xes other than OS X) the Qt system locale gets the locale information from the appropriate place on the OS. Is there ever a need to override your global language setting? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards - Michał Łabędzki, Software Engineer Tieto Corporation Product Development Services http://www.tieto.com / http://www.tieto.pl --- ASCII: Michal Labedzki location: Swobodna 1 Street, 50-088 Wrocław, Poland room: 5.01 (desk next to 5.08) --- Please note: The information contained in this message may be legally privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any unauthorised use, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. --- Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Tieto Poland spółka z ograniczoną odpowiedzialnością z siedzibą w Szczecinie, ul. Malczewskiego 26. Zarejestrowana w Sądzie Rejonowym Szczecin-Centrum w Szczecinie, XIII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego pod numerem 124858. NIP: 8542085557. REGON: 812023656. Kapitał zakładowy: 4 271500 PLN ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 11:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. +1. Most software I use allow me to manually override the language without messing with the environment variables. Do you use any GUI applications other than Wireshark? On what operating system do you use them? Do they all offer a manual language override, so that you can set a particular application's language independently of your personal global language setting? And here we are talking about a functionality we already have. This is functionality we have in the Qt version, which most people aren't using, and which is still incomplete. I.e., it's functionality we have in a version under development. I do not at all agree with, and will never agree with, the belief that removing existing functionality is inherently wrong. If the functionality is unused, or is rarely used and if its capabilities can be achieved in another way, I consider that a very good reason to consider removing it. Removing it would be a big loss in my opinion. In what ways is it used that its disappearance would be a big loss rather than, at most, a minor loss? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com wrote: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. So how do developers on Windows who have their system configured for one language, but are working on translations to another language, for applications test their translations for that application? I.e., is there already a general mechanism in Windows for overriding locale settings on a per-application basis, which we could make Wireshark use rather than having it provide its own independent mechanism for that? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
2014-11-05 18:31 GMT+01:00 Guy Harris g...@alum.mit.edu: On Nov 5, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Pascal Quantin pascal.quan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 11:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Labedzki michal.labed...@tieto.com: Please run LC_ALL=it_IT wireshark Does it work on Windows? I do not remember to know anyone GUI application without option to change language by GUI. Do you know how to change locale after running application? (QEvent::LocaleChange ?) If this is not possible then dynamic change application language will be lost. +1. Most software I use allow me to manually override the language without messing with the environment variables. Do you use any GUI applications other than Wireshark? Yes, tons of as I'm on Windows :) On what operating system do you use them? See above Do they all offer a manual language override, so that you can set a particular application's language independently of your personal global language setting? The only ones I can think to supporting multiple languages without a GUI option to set it are... command line based coming from Linux world (like mercurial) and here I do use the environment variable. But it's more painful for a lazy guy and not a common use case for a standard Windows user I think. Moreover I prefer to have a good interface in English rather than a partial / bad French translation :) And here we are talking about a functionality we already have. This is functionality we have in the Qt version, which most people aren't using, and which is still incomplete. I.e., it's functionality we have in a version under development. Agreed, but it's also the first time we introduce language support so it's the right time to discuss this kind of thing. I do not at all agree with, and will never agree with, the belief that removing existing functionality is inherently wrong. If the functionality is unused, or is rarely used and if its capabilities can be achieved in another way, I consider that a very good reason to consider removing it. I understand your point. On the other point it's really common practice (at least on Windows) to allow user to select the language from the GUI. Removing it would be a big loss in my opinion. In what ways is it used that its disappearance would be a big loss rather than, at most, a minor loss? For me: a minor loss as I know the environment variables allowing to override it. For the common Windows user, it might be a bigger loss. Pascal. ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wireshark-dev] On which platforms is there a need for Wireshark to have a Language preference?
I.e., are there reasons, on any platforms, to set the Language preference to anything other than Auto-Detect? As far as I know, on all supported platforms (Windows, OS X, UN*Xes other than OS X) the Qt system locale gets the locale information from the appropriate place on the OS. Is there ever a need to override your global language setting? ___ Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list wireshark-dev@wireshark.org Archives:http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev Unsubscribe: https://wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev mailto:wireshark-dev-requ...@wireshark.org?subject=unsubscribe
