Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?

[Oliver Boermans]

2009/10/16 Jason Grant :
> Ollie you are threading a dangerous ground there.
> Explained here why you are
> wrong: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/

Good link for this thread Jason. Although I don’t understand why the
company name would be inappropriate semantically to use as the h1 on
the home page.

The home page represents the company. If I Google for a company with
it’s name as a keyword I would expect to find their home page. Using
it on every page of the site is a different matter.

For this to work the 'logo' would be text which would be styled with
CSS to look like the logo in a browser. As an alternative I expect the
alt text of an image would likely suffice (not so sure on this one).

To put on my hat with horns to present a possible issue with my own
suggestion; I would point out that using a different structure between
pages of a site can be confusing for a screenreader user; But then,
home pages often are a different structure to topic-specific sub pages
anyway so I don’t expect anyone would get upset about it.

I’ve been doing this for a few years now so if I’m wrong I’m keen to
be corrected!

…

The defence for using two h1 elements in a page makes some sense to me
from the same perspective that it makes sense to put the company name
in every page title alongside the subject of the page eg: "[title]SEO
and semantics - WSG blog[/title]".

You have to draw the line somewhere though, as too much emphasis is no
emphasis at all.

Interesting discussion - thanks to those at WDS09 who introduced me to
this group!
--
Ollie Boermans
@ollicle


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Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Brett Patterson]

EBS Admin, from what I read it looked like it was a motto, not some
keywords.

--
Brett P.



On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:29, EBS Admin
wrote:

>  Hi Darren,
>
> Maybe if you read what I wrote properly you would see that the
> H1 surrounding the logo has different key words in it depending on the page.
> I use text Site name – keywords as my logo and style it with CSS
> and therefore each one is unique, semantic and great for SEO
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Darren Lovelock
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 16:33
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
>
> To have the logo as a H1 on every page will most likely trigger spam
> filters in the search engines as you are duplicating the heading throughout
> the website, they should always be unique. Anyone advising to do this to
> boost your page's keyword relevancy simply doesn't know what they are
> talking about.
>
>
>
> I cant think of a single reason why you would wrap a H1 around a logo as
> there is no advantage to you, search engines or your visitors. Maybe if you
> had a business directory where each listing had its own logo and alt text of
> the company name then it could work there but not if there was already an H1
> on the page.
>
>
>
> The only case that you could possibly use two H1s on a page is if you had a
> page containing two entirely different topics. But then again wouldn't you
> just put this content on two separate pages? If your sites theme is to
> write about lots of different content e.g. a general blog, then it should
> have a main H1 and each topic be summarised using H2's and then include a
> link to their own individual pages.
>
>
>
> Why is the topic starter looking for reasons for why they shouldn't do it,
> when they should be asking themselves what is their reason for using the H1
> this way in the first place?
>
>
>
> Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they
> are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL
>
>
>
> Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to...
>
>
>
> I would have thought it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't do it ;)
>
>
>
> Darren Lovelock
>
> Munky Online Web Design
>
> http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
>
> T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *EBS Admin
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:52
>
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the
> fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented
> in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to
> look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to
> get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the
> semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *ja...@flexewebs.com
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:45
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
> is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
> brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.
>
> I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1
> around other content within the page, but certainly not the logo.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>  --
>
> *From: *"EBS Admin" 
>
> *Date: *Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
>
> *To: *
>
> *Subject: *RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
>
> Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
> shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
> the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
> the 1 H1.
>
>
>
> For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
> and has a similar effect for screen readers.
>
>
>
> Hope this makes it a little clearer.
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Grant
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:25
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
> you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.
>
> Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
> being on first page of Google.
>
> My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
> of the points I mentioned.
>
> You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually

RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[EBS Admin]

Hi Darren,

Maybe if you read what I wrote properly you would see that the
H1 surrounding the logo has different key words in it depending on the page.
I use text Site name - keywords as my logo and style it with CSS
and therefore each one is unique, semantic and great for SEO

 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Darren Lovelock
Sent: 16 October 2009 16:33
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

 

To have the logo as a H1 on every page will most likely trigger spam filters
in the search engines as you are duplicating the heading throughout the
website, they should always be unique. Anyone advising to do this to boost
your page's keyword relevancy simply doesn't know what they are talking
about.

 

I cant think of a single reason why you would wrap a H1 around a logo as
there is no advantage to you, search engines or your visitors. Maybe if you
had a business directory where each listing had its own logo and alt text of
the company name then it could work there but not if there was already an H1
on the page.

 

The only case that you could possibly use two H1s on a page is if you had a
page containing two entirely different topics. But then again wouldn't you
just put this content on two separate pages? If your sites theme is to write
about lots of different content e.g. a general blog, then it should have a
main H1 and each topic be summarised using H2's and then include a link to
their own individual pages.

 

Why is the topic starter looking for reasons for why they shouldn't do it,
when they should be asking themselves what is their reason for using the H1
this way in the first place?

 

Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they
are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL 

 

Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to...

 

I would have thought it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't do it ;)

 

Darren Lovelock

Munky Online Web Design

  http://www.munkyonline.co.uk

T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893

 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of EBS Admin
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:52
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the
fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented
in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to
look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to
get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the
semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.

 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of ja...@flexewebs.com
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.

I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1 around
other content within the page, but certainly not the logo. 

Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device

  _  

From: "EBS Admin"  

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100

To: 

Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

 

Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
the 1 H1.

 

For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
and has a similar effect for screen readers.

 

Hope this makes it a little clearer.

 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.  

Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
being on first page of Google. 

My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
of the points I mentioned. 

You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
your reasoning behind it. 

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin
 wrote:

Jason, 

Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.

 

The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
multiple H1's!

 

  _  

Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Rob Crowther]

Gaspar wrote:

This problem will be solved, I hope, with the use of  and
 in HTML5.

Indeed, in HTML5 the meaning of h1-6 is 'headings for the sections with 
which they are associated' - multiple h1 elements in a page is not a 
problem:


http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/h1.html

A discussion of the impact of this on accessibility in the comments to 
this blog post:


http://www.iheni.com/html-5-to-the-h1-debate-rescue/

Rob


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Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Gaspar]

Hello everyone,

There are many cases that you should repeat h1 or others headers.

I do many homepages or homepages of areas, and i don't know were i
should or not use the h1.
I don't use in page title because is not relevant. The correct use
should be on the titles of modules that i use, such as "last news" or
"last updates" or any title of some list of items.

And they have the some importance.

This problem will be solved, I hope, with the use of  and
 in HTML5.

Gaspar


On 16/10/2009, Darren Lovelock  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> To have the logo as a H1 on every page will most likely trigger spam filters
> in the search engines as you are duplicating the heading throughout the
> website, they should always be unique. Anyone advising to do this to boost
> your page's keyword relevancy simply doesn't know what they are talking
> about.
>
> I cant think of a single reason why you would wrap a H1 around a logo as
> there is no advantage to you, search engines or your visitors. Maybe if you
> had a business directory where each listing had its own logo and alt text of
> the company name then it could work there but not if there was already an H1
> on the page.
>
> The only case that you could possibly use two H1s on a page is if you had a
> page containing two entirely different topics. But then again wouldn't you
> just put this content on two separate pages? If your sites theme is to write
> about lots of different content e.g. a general blog, then it should have a
> main H1 and each topic be summarised using H2's and then include a link to
> their own individual pages.
>
> Why is the topic starter looking for reasons for why they shouldn't do it,
> when they should be asking themselves what is their reason for using the H1
> this way in the first place?
>
> Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they
> are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL
>
> Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to...
>
> I would have thought it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't do it ;)
>
>
> Darren Lovelock
> Munky Online Web Design
> http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
> T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893
>
>  
>  From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org
> [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of EBS Admin
> Sent: 16 October 2009 15:52
>
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
>
> The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the
> fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented
> in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to
> look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to
> get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the
> semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.
>
>  
>  From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org
> [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of
> ja...@flexewebs.com
> Sent: 16 October 2009 15:45
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
> Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
> is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
> brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.
>
> I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1 around
> other content within the page, but certainly not the logo.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device 
>
> From: "EBS Admin" 
> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
> To: 
> Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
> Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
> shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
> the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
> the 1 H1.
>
> For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
> and has a similar effect for screen readers.
>
> Hope this makes it a little clearer.
>
>  
>  From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org
> [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason
> Grant
> Sent: 16 October 2009 15:25
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
> EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
> you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.
> Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
> being on first page of Google.
> My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
> of the points I mentioned.
> You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
> your reasoning behind it.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Jason,
> > Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
> advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they m

RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Darren Lovelock]

To have the logo as a H1 on every page will most likely trigger spam filters
in the search engines as you are duplicating the heading throughout the
website, they should always be unique. Anyone advising to do this to boost
your page's keyword relevancy simply doesn't know what they are talking
about.
 
I cant think of a single reason why you would wrap a H1 around a logo as
there is no advantage to you, search engines or your visitors. Maybe if you
had a business directory where each listing had its own logo and alt text of
the company name then it could work there but not if there was already an H1
on the page.
 
The only case that you could possibly use two H1s on a page is if you had a
page containing two entirely different topics. But then again wouldn't you
just put this content on two separate pages? If your sites theme is to write
about lots of different content e.g. a general blog, then it should have a
main H1 and each topic be summarised using H2's and then include a link to
their own individual pages.
 
Why is the topic starter looking for reasons for why they shouldn't do it,
when they should be asking themselves what is their reason for using the H1
this way in the first place?
 
Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they
are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL 
 
Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to...
 
I would have thought it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't do it ;)
 
Darren Lovelock
Munky Online Web Design
  http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of EBS Admin
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:52
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the
fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented
in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to
look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to
get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the
semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of ja...@flexewebs.com
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.

I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1 around
other content within the page, but certainly not the logo. 

Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device

  _  

From: "EBS Admin"  
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
To: 
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
the 1 H1.
 
For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
and has a similar effect for screen readers.
 
Hope this makes it a little clearer.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.  
Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
being on first page of Google. 
My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
of the points I mentioned. 
You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
your reasoning behind it. 


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin
 wrote:


Jason, 
Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
 
The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
multiple H1's!

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 

Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
Digest)


Tim 

To keep it really simple: 

Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
per page

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:


OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM

Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Brett Patterson]

Seems to me that Providers of Miniature Clips for Business is more of a tag
line and not really appropriate to put in an h1 heading.

--
Brett P.



On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 11:10, EBS Admin
wrote:

>  No but you can wrap MiniClip - Providers of Miniature Clips for Business.
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Grant
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 16:00
>
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> That's only relevant if your site has a keyword in the logo (e.g. Free
> Online Games), where each of the words is a form of a keyword, while if your
> site is called MiniClip, there is not much point in wrapping H1 around it.
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, EBS Admin <
> ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net> wrote:
>
>>  The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image,
>> the fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being
>> represented in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be
>> styled up to look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and
>> provide a tool to get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst
>> complementing the semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *ja...@flexewebs.com
>> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:45
>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>>
>>  Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the
>> logo is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for
>> it's brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.
>>
>> I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1
>> around other content within the page, but certainly not the logo.
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>> --
>> *From: *"EBS Admin" 
>> *Date: *Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
>> *To: *
>> *Subject: *RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>>
>> Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
>> shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
>> the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
>> the 1 H1.
>>
>> For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the
>> pages, and has a similar effect for screen readers.
>>
>> Hope this makes it a little clearer.
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant
>> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:25
>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>>
>> EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says
>> that you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given
>> page.  Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still
>> enjoys being on first page of Google.
>> My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
>> of the points I mentioned.
>> You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
>> your reasoning behind it.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin <
>> ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  Jason,
>>> Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
>>> advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
>>> sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
>>> mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
>>>
>>> The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
>>> multiple H1's!
>>>
>>>  --
>>> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant
>>> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 14:48
>>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
>>> Digest)
>>>
>>> Tim
>>> To keep it really simple:
>>>
>>> Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
>>> per page
>>>
>>> Hope this makes sense?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White wrote:
>>>
 OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM&feature=channel
  (video
 from March 2009)

 Tim

  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant wrote:

>  Tim,
> Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.
>
> However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we
> give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best
> practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices.
>
> So the spec does not tell you to use on

RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[EBS Admin]

No but you can wrap MiniClip - Providers of Miniature Clips for Business.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 16:00
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


That's only relevant if your site has a keyword in the logo (e.g. Free
Online Games), where each of the words is a form of a keyword, while if your
site is called MiniClip, there is not much point in wrapping H1 around it. 


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, EBS Admin
 wrote:


The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the
fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented
in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to
look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to
get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the
semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of ja...@flexewebs.com
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:45 

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.

I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1 around
other content within the page, but certainly not the logo. 

Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device

  _  

From: "EBS Admin"  
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
To: 
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
the 1 H1.
 
For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
and has a similar effect for screen readers.
 
Hope this makes it a little clearer.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.  
Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
being on first page of Google. 
My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
of the points I mentioned. 
You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
your reasoning behind it. 


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin
 wrote:


Jason, 
Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
 
The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
multiple H1's!

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 

Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
Digest)


Tim 

To keep it really simple: 

Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
per page

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:


OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM

&feature=channel
  (video from
March 2009)

Tim


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant  wrote:


Tim, 

Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. 

However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
as well as general semantics and IA best practices. 

So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
the be all and end all of guidelines.

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
wrote:


...

 

H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
...

 

So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the
page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

 

Let's look at what the specification says; 

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a

Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Jason Grant]

That's only relevant if your site has a keyword in the logo (e.g. Free
Online Games), where each of the words is a form of a keyword, while if your
site is called MiniClip, there is not much point in wrapping H1 around it.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, EBS Admin  wrote:

>  The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image,
> the fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being
> represented in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be
> styled up to look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and
> provide a tool to get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst
> complementing the semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *ja...@flexewebs.com
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:45
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
> is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
> brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.
>
> I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1
> around other content within the page, but certainly not the logo.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> --
> *From: *"EBS Admin" 
> *Date: *Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
> *To: *
> *Subject: *RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
> shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
> the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
> the 1 H1.
>
> For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
> and has a similar effect for screen readers.
>
> Hope this makes it a little clearer.
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Grant
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:25
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
> you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.  
> Every
> site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys being on
> first page of Google.
> My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
> of the points I mentioned.
> You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
> your reasoning behind it.
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin <
> ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net> wrote:
>
>>  Jason,
>> Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
>> advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
>> sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
>> mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
>>
>> The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
>> multiple H1's!
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant
>> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 14:48
>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>> *Subject:* Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
>> Digest)
>>
>> Tim
>> To keep it really simple:
>>
>> Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
>> per page
>>
>> Hope this makes sense?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:
>>
>>> OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM&feature=channel
>>>  (video from
>>> March 2009)
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant wrote:
>>>
  Tim,
 Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.

 However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we
 give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best
 practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices.

 So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is
 not the be all and end all of guidelines.

  Thanks,

 Jason

  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White wrote:

>  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld <
> m...@langfeldesigns.com> wrote:
>
>>  ...
>>
>
>
>>  H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least,
>> there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
>> ...
>>
>
>
>>  So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main
>> title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.
>>
>
>
>  Let's l

RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[EBS Admin]

The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the
fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented
in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to
look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to
get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the
semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of ja...@flexewebs.com
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.

I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1 around
other content within the page, but certainly not the logo. 

Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device

  _  

From: "EBS Admin"  
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
To: 
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
the 1 H1.
 
For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
and has a similar effect for screen readers.
 
Hope this makes it a little clearer.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.  
Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
being on first page of Google. 
My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
of the points I mentioned. 
You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
your reasoning behind it. 


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin
 wrote:


Jason, 
Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
 
The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
multiple H1's!

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 

Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
Digest)


Tim 

To keep it really simple: 

Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
per page

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:


OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM

&feature=channel
  (video from
March 2009)

Tim


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant  wrote:


Tim, 

Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. 

However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
as well as general semantics and IA best practices. 

So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
the be all and end all of guidelines.

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
wrote:


...

 

H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
...

 

So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the
page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

 

Let's look at what the specification says; 

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with
 H1 as the most
important and   H6
as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in
larger fonts than less important ones."

 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1
per page. In fact, the example shows t

Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[jason]

Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo is 
present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's brand 
name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.

I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1 around 
other content within the page, but certainly not the logo.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-Original Message-
From: "EBS Admin" 
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 
To: 
Subject: RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
the 1 H1.
 
For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
and has a similar effect for screen readers.
 
Hope this makes it a little clearer.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.  
Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
being on first page of Google. 
My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
of the points I mentioned. 
You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
your reasoning behind it. 


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin
 wrote:


Jason, 
Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
 
The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
multiple H1's!

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 

Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
Digest)


Tim 

To keep it really simple: 

Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
per page

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:


OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM

&feature=channel
  (video from
March 2009)

Tim


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant  wrote:


Tim, 

Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. 

However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
as well as general semantics and IA best practices. 

So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
the be all and end all of guidelines.

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
wrote:


...

 

H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
...

 

So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the
page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

 

Let's look at what the specification says; 

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with
 H1 as the most
important and   H6
as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in
larger fonts than less important ones."

 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1
per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.

~ Tim


*** 

List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 




-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. 
www.flexewebs.com 
ja...@flexewebs.com 
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469 

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs 
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


*** 

L

RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[EBS Admin]

Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
the 1 H1.
 
For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
and has a similar effect for screen readers.
 
Hope this makes it a little clearer.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 15:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?


EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.  
Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
being on first page of Google. 
My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
of the points I mentioned. 
You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
your reasoning behind it. 


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin
 wrote:


Jason, 
Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
 
The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
multiple H1's!

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 

Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
Digest)


Tim 

To keep it really simple: 

Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
per page

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:


OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM

&feature=channel
  (video from
March 2009)

Tim


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant  wrote:


Tim, 

Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. 

However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
as well as general semantics and IA best practices. 

So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
the be all and end all of guidelines.

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
wrote:


...

 

H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
...

 

So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the
page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

 

Let's look at what the specification says; 

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with
 H1 as the most
important and   H6
as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in
larger fonts than less important ones."

 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1
per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.

~ Tim


*** 

List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 




-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. 
www.flexewebs.com 
ja...@flexewebs.com 
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469 

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs 
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


*** 

List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
**

Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Jason Grant]

EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given
page. Every
site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys being on
first page of Google.
My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
of the points I mentioned.
You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
your reasoning behind it.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin  wrote:

>  Jason,
> Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
> advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
> sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
> mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
>
> The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
> multiple H1's!
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Grant
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 14:48
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
> Digest)
>
> Tim
> To keep it really simple:
>
> Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
> per page
>
> Hope this makes sense?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:
>
>> OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM&feature=channel
>>  (video from
>> March 2009)
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant wrote:
>>
>>> Tim,
>>> Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.
>>>
>>> However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we
>>> give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best
>>> practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices.
>>>
>>> So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
>>> the be all and end all of guidelines.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White wrote:
>>>
  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld <
 m...@langfeldesigns.com> wrote:

>  ...
>


>  H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least,
> there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
> ...
>


>  So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title
> of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.
>


  Let's look at what the specification says;

 "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
 introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to
 construct a table of contents for a document automatically.

 There are six levels of headings in HTML with 
 H1 as
 the most important and 
 H6 as
 the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
 fonts than less important ones."

 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

 Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be
 only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.

 ~ Tim

 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
 ***

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jason Grant BSc, MSc
>>> CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
>>> www.flexewebs.com
>>> ja...@flexewebs.com
>>> +44 (0)7748 591 770
>>> Company no.: 5587469
>>>
>>> www.flexewebs.com/semantix
>>> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
>>>
>>> ***
>>>
>>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>>> ***
>>>
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> ***
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Grant BSc, MSc
> CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
> www.flexewebs.com
> ja...@flexewebs.com
> +44 (0)7748 591 770
> Company no.: 5587469
>
> www.flexewebs.com/semantix
> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
> www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
>

[WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[EBS Admin]

Jason, 
Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
 
The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
multiple H1's!

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: 16 October 2009 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
Digest)


Tim 

To keep it really simple: 

Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
per page

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:


OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM

&feature=channel
  (video from
March 2009)

Tim


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant  wrote:


Tim, 

Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. 

However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
as well as general semantics and IA best practices. 

So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
the be all and end all of guidelines.

Thanks,

Jason


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
wrote:


...

 

H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
...

 

So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the
page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

 

Let's look at what the specification says; 

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with
 H1 as the most
important and   H6
as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in
larger fonts than less important ones."

 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1
per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.

~ Tim


*** 

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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. 
www.flexewebs.com 
ja...@flexewebs.com 
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469 

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs 
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


*** 

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*** 




-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. 
www.flexewebs.com 
ja...@flexewebs.com 
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469 

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs 
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Jason Grant]

Tim
To keep it really simple:

Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
per page

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks,

Jason

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White  wrote:

> OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM&feature=channel
> (video from
> March 2009)
>
> Tim
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant  wrote:
>
>> Tim,
>> Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.
>>
>> However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
>> it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
>> as well as general semantics and IA best practices.
>>
>> So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
>> the be all and end all of guidelines.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld >> > wrote:
>>>
 ...

>>>
>>>
  H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least,
 there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
 ...

>>>
>>>
 So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of
 the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

>>>
>>>
>>> Let's look at what the specification says;
>>>
>>> "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
>>> introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to
>>> construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
>>>
>>> There are six levels of headings in HTML with 
>>> H1 as
>>> the most important and 
>>> H6 as
>>> the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
>>> fonts than less important ones."
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5
>>>
>>> Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be
>>> only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.
>>>
>>> ~ Tim
>>>
>>> ***
>>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>>> ***
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jason Grant BSc, MSc
>> CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
>> www.flexewebs.com
>> ja...@flexewebs.com
>> +44 (0)7748 591 770
>> Company no.: 5587469
>>
>> www.flexewebs.com/semantix
>> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
>> www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
>>
>> ***
>>
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> ***
>>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>



-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Tim White]

OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM&feature=channel
(video from
March 2009)

Tim

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant  wrote:

> Tim,
> Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.
>
> However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
> it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
> as well as general semantics and IA best practices.
>
> So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
> the be all and end all of guidelines.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>
>>
>>>  H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least,
>>> there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
>>> ...
>>>
>>
>>
>>> So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of
>>> the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Let's look at what the specification says;
>>
>> "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
>> introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to
>> construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
>>
>> There are six levels of headings in HTML with 
>> H1 as
>> the most important and 
>> H6 as
>> the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
>> fonts than less important ones."
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5
>>
>> Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only
>> 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.
>>
>> ~ Tim
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> ***
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Grant BSc, MSc
> CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
> www.flexewebs.com
> ja...@flexewebs.com
> +44 (0)7748 591 770
> Company no.: 5587469
>
> www.flexewebs.com/semantix
> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
> www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
>
> ***
>
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>


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RE: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[EBS Admin]

I'm sorry but i'm going to put my 2 pence worth in. The site I build use a
H1 for the logo, then a h1 for a title further down the page, using the h1,
h2, h3, etc structure and Google seems to love those site the latest lauch
has h1, h2 and a h3 in the header and it's on page 1 already after being
launched 3 weeks ago. So in terms of following best practive, providing
clear text to screen reader and for SEO the use of H tags should be as the
W3C advises.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Yuval Ararat
Sent: 16 October 2009 13:11
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
Digest)


I am not sure that a page with multiple important subject does not exist. so
IA wise and semantic wise this is not a must. google wise it is.


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Jason Grant  wrote:


Tim, 

Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. 

However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
as well as general semantics and IA best practices. 

So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
the be all and end all of guidelines.

Thanks,

Jason 


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
wrote:


...

 

H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
...

 

So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the
page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

 

Let's look at what the specification says; 

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with
 H1 as the most
important and   H6
as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in
larger fonts than less important ones."

 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1
per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.

~ Tim


***
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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. 
www.flexewebs.com 
ja...@flexewebs.com 
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469 

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs 
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


*** 

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[WSG] Re: More than one H1?

[Stevio]

Hey all,
Am I the only one who is getting these messages directly sent to their deleted 
items? Please can you take the "out of office" bit out of the subject lines? I 
am sure there are others like me who have filters set up to automatically 
delete out of office messages. 

It's also a bit ironic that a subject about headings was started with the 
subject line "Re: [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest" lol!

My own view is that a logo should not be wrapped in an H1 tag under normal 
circumstances. A logo is an image not a descriptive heading.

If you want to have more than H1 tag then as others have said, there is nothing 
in the spec against it so go for it. If you are sure that Google will penalise 
you for it however, then just avoid it. Use an H2 tag for the second heading, 
even if you style it the same.
Stephen

  - Original Message - 
  From: Yuval Ararat 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 1:10 PM
  Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)


  I am not sure that a page with multiple important subject does not exist. so 
IA wise and semantic wise this is not a must. google wise it is.


  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Jason Grant  wrote:

Tim, 

Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. 


However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give 
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices as 
well as general semantics and IA best practices. 


So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not 
the be all and end all of guidelines.


Thanks,

Jason 



On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:

  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
 wrote:

...

H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, 
there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
...

So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title 
of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.



  Let's look at what the specification says; 


  "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it 
introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to 
construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
  There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important 
and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in 
larger fonts than less important ones."

  http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

  Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be 
only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.

  ~ Tim


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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Jason Grant]

Yuval,
Everything exists on the Internet, but it doesn't mean it's good.

So pages with multiple subject do exist, they are just known as 'bad pages'
from IA perspective. ;-)

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Yuval Ararat  wrote:

> I am not sure that a page with multiple important subject does not exist.
> so IA wise and semantic wise this is not a must. google wise it is.
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Jason Grant  wrote:
>
>> Tim,
>> Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.
>>
>> However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
>> it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
>> as well as general semantics and IA best practices.
>>
>> So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
>> the be all and end all of guidelines.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld >> > wrote:
>>>
 ...

>>>
>>>
  H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least,
 there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
 ...

>>>
>>>
 So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of
 the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.

>>>
>>>
>>>  Let's look at what the specification says;
>>>
>>> "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
>>> introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to
>>> construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
>>>
>>> There are six levels of headings in HTML with 
>>> H1 as
>>> the most important and 
>>> H6 as
>>> the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
>>> fonts than less important ones."
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5
>>>
>>> Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be
>>> only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.
>>>
>>> ~ Tim
>>>
>>> ***
>>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>>> ***
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jason Grant BSc, MSc
>> CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
>> www.flexewebs.com
>> ja...@flexewebs.com
>> +44 (0)7748 591 770
>> Company no.: 5587469
>>
>> www.flexewebs.com/semantix
>> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
>> www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
>>
>> ***
>>
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> ***
>>
>
>
> ***
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>



-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Yuval Ararat]

I am not sure that a page with multiple important subject does not exist. so
IA wise and semantic wise this is not a must. google wise it is.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Jason Grant  wrote:

> Tim,
> Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.
>
> However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
> it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
> as well as general semantics and IA best practices.
>
> So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
> the be all and end all of guidelines.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>
>>
>>>  H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least,
>>> there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
>>> ...
>>>
>>
>>
>>> So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of
>>> the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Let's look at what the specification says;
>>
>> "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
>> introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to
>> construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
>>
>> There are six levels of headings in HTML with 
>> H1 as
>> the most important and 
>> H6 as
>> the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
>> fonts than less important ones."
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5
>>
>> Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only
>> 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.
>>
>> ~ Tim
>>
>> ***
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>
>
>
> --
> Jason Grant BSc, MSc
> CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
> www.flexewebs.com
> ja...@flexewebs.com
> +44 (0)7748 591 770
> Company no.: 5587469
>
> www.flexewebs.com/semantix
> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
> www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
>
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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Yuval Ararat]

The issue with having more then 1 H! tag is not the validity of the page as
XHTML or HTML5 or any other specification, its not even affecting WCAG1/2.
the only case that is affected is the search engines relationship with H1
that entitled it as the Content's Title. it is not mandatory that it will be
the same as the Title tag but it should be relevant to the Content and a
page is better off with only 1 H1 for search engines.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
> wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>
>
>> H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
>> only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
>> ...
>>
>
>
>> So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of
>> the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.
>>
>
>
> Let's look at what the specification says;
>
> "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
> introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to
> construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
>
> There are six levels of headings in HTML with 
> H1 as
> the most important and 
> H6 as
> the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
> fonts than less important ones."
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5
>
> Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only
> 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.
>
> ~ Tim
>
> ***
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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Jason Grant]

Tim,
Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.

However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give
it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices
as well as general semantics and IA best practices.

So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not
the be all and end all of guidelines.

Thanks,

Jason

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
> wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>
>
>> H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
>> only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
>> ...
>>
>
>
>> So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of
>> the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.
>>
>
>
> Let's look at what the specification says;
>
> "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
> introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to
> construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
>
> There are six levels of headings in HTML with 
> H1 as
> the most important and 
> H6 as
> the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
> fonts than less important ones."
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5
>
> Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only
> 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.
>
> ~ Tim
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>



-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Tim White]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld 
wrote:

> ...
>


> H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's
> only one title, while there may be many first level headings.
> ...
>


> So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of
> the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.
>


Let's look at what the specification says;

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.

There are six levels of headings in HTML with
H1 as
the most important and
H6 as
the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger
fonts than less important ones."

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1
per page. In fact, the example shows two being used.

~ Tim


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[WSG] Re: More than one H1?

[Jason Grant]

Ollie you are threading a dangerous ground there. Explained here why you are
wrong:
http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/


Thanks,

Jason

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Oliver Boermans wrote:

> 2009/10/16 Adam Martin :
> > Again the logo is usually only the most important thing to the owner -
> not
> > the customer - the customer will recognise if they are on the right site
> or
> > not.
>
> I believe it”s appropriate to represent the logo as a h1 on a site’s
> home page, unless you are using a positioning statement in the page
> title of home page. In which case it would be best to apply the h1 to
> that within the page. HTH
> --
> Ollie Boermans
> @ollicle
>
>
> ***
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>


-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: [Spam] :Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Oliver Boermans]

2009/10/16 Adam Martin :
> Again the logo is usually only the most important thing to the owner - not
> the customer - the customer will recognise if they are on the right site or
> not.

I believe it”s appropriate to represent the logo as a h1 on a site’s
home page, unless you are using a positioning statement in the page
title of home page. In which case it would be best to apply the h1 to
that within the page. HTH
--
Ollie Boermans
@ollicle


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[Spam] :Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Adam Martin]

While I agree that you can have several areas of equal importance on a 
page. I still beg to differ that you would want to saturate the 
effectiveness of a h1 tag by using it by wrapping it around the logo. It 
seems to me to be a little like the infamous "can you make my logo a 
little bigger" that is requested by the client quite often. Your brand 
simply has to be recognised - not be the main focus of the page. Content 
is king here - forget about everything else. Write the content of each 
page in Microsoft word using the title tags that are provided and then 
you have a very good basis of how the content should be presented on the 
web - the rules are the same.


In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting 
the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come 
to your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they 
want to find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than 
SEO can ever dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 
non qualified.


I know this has deviated a lot from the original question but I feel it 
has relevance - ask yourself some basic questions, write the content and 
then look at the semantics that best fit.


Again the logo is usually only the most important thing to the owner - 
not the customer - the customer will recognise if they are on the right 
site or not.


Cheers Adam.

P.S written from Thailand after a couple too many afternoon beers.



c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote:

Thanks for your responses...

Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of 
equal importance.


Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on 
one area of each page and the impact that could have in search 
resultsbut that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic 
structure. Is it not entirely plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally 
important area of the page?


I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing 
people notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding.


I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines 
indexingbut I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that 
suggests Google (in particular) degrade the rank of your site based on 
the existence of more than one H1.


Quoting Yuval Ararat :

> Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. 
SEO guys

> have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main
> subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the 
punishment is

> not severe so not every one of the major sites obey.
> In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header
> tagand 
 the

> existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch
> and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to 
structure of

> pages to be.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM,  wrote:
>
>> Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before...
>>
>> Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag.
>>
>> The title of each page is also a H1.
>>
>> Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably
>> better if there was only one H1 on each page.
>>
>> Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory?
>>
>> I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on 
my return

>> email doesn't have "SEO expert" on it.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Christian Fagan
>> Fagan Design
>> fagandesign.com.au
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
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>
>
> ***
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[WSG] Re: More than one H1?

[designer]

If semantics and SEO are paramount, and typography is too, could you make an 
H2 which is the same size etc for the 'other' uses of H1?  That way, your 
structure/appearance would be intact, and the SEO considerations satisfied??


Is that undesirable for any reason?

Bob


- Original Message - 
From: c...@fagandesign.com.au

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG 
Digest)



Thanks for your responses...

Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of equal 
importance.


Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on one 
area of each page and the impact that could have in search resultsbut 
that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic structure. Is it not entirely 
plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally important area of the page?


I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing people 
notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding.


I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines indexingbut 
I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that suggests Google (in 
particular) degrade the rank of your site based on the existence of more 
than one H1. 






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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Jason Grant]

I attempted this very topic before in a blog post:
http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/
Hope
it makes sense.
Thanks,
Jason

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:08 AM,  wrote:

> Thanks for your responses...
>
> Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of equal
> importance.
>
> Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on one
> area of each page and the impact that could have in search resultsbut
> that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic structure. Is it not entirely
> plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally important area of the page?
>
> I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing people
> notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding.
>
> I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines indexingbut
> I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that suggests Google (in
> particular) degrade the rank of your site based on the existence of more
> than one H1.
>
> Quoting Yuval Ararat :
>
> > Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. SEO
> guys
> > have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main
> > subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the punishment
> is
> > not severe so not every one of the major sites obey.
> > In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header
> > tagandthe
> > existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch
> > and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to structure
> of
> > pages to be.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM,  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before...
> >>
> >> Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag.
> >>
> >> The title of each page is also a H1.
> >>
> >> Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably
> >> better if there was only one H1 on each page.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory?
> >>
> >> I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on my
> return
> >> email doesn't have "SEO expert" on it.
> >>
> >> Many thanks.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Christian Fagan
> >> Fagan Design
> >> fagandesign.com.au
> >>
> >> ***
> >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[Marilyn Langfeld]

Speaking as both publications, graphic and web designer, the real problem has always been that the title resides in the head, not in a title tag inside the body. H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.This confusion wouldn't have happened if HTML had a T1 and maybe T2 tag (title and subtitle).So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Of course, all web pages aren't documents, which confuses the issue. But I believe this is the back story, at least it's what makes sense to me. Best regards,Marilyn Langfeldwww.langfeldesigns.comm...@langfeldesigns.com+1.202.390.8847 mobile On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:08 AM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Thanks for your responses...Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of equal importance.Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on one area of each page and the impact that could have in search resultsbut that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic structure. Is it not entirely plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally important area of the page?I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing people notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding.I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines indexingbut I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that suggests Google (in particular) degrade the rank of your site based on the existence of more than one H1. Quoting Yuval Ararat : > Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. SEO guys > have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main > subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the punishment is > not severe so not every one of the major sites obey. > In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header > tagand the > existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch > and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to structure of > pages to be. > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM,  wrote: > >> Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before... >> >> Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag. >> >> The title of each page is also a H1. >> >> Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably >> better if there was only one H1 on each page. >> >> Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory? >> >> I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on my return >> email doesn't have "SEO expert" on it. >> >> Many thanks. >> >> >> >> Christian Fagan >> Fagan Design >> fagandesign.com.au >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org >> *** > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org***
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Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)

[cf]

Thanks for your responses...

Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of  
equal importance.


Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on  
one area of each page and the impact that could have in search  
resultsbut that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic  
structure. Is it not entirely plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally  
important area of the page?


I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing  
people notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding.


I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines  
indexingbut I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that  
suggests Google (in particular) degrade the rank of your site based on  
the existence of more than one H1.


Quoting Yuval Ararat :


Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. SEO guys
have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main
subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the punishment is
not severe so not every one of the major sites obey.
In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header
taghttp://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#header>and the
existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch
and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to structure of
pages to be.


On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM,  wrote:


Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before...

Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag.

The title of each page is also a H1.

Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably
better if there was only one H1 on each page.

Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory?

I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on my return
email doesn't have "SEO expert" on it.

Many thanks.



Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au

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