Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
tee, you want this: http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/ it greatly simplifies the layout for IE6.. to just be the straight-up content.. no layout tricks. plus decent typography. :) On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:59 PM, G.Sørtun gunla...@c2i.net wrote: On 19.12.2010 22:13, David McKinnon wrote: Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse than it needs to be. Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;) David As it says in my article: I've restricted disgraceful degradation to IE6 and older. And, the effort is minimal :-) Not sure if limited styles necessarily make the IE6 experience worse than weak and/or failing styles and corrective measures. As usual that depends on the designer/coder. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] seeking JavaScript Bible reviewers
Hi all, I'm looking for established reviewers of programming books to whom to send copies of the JavaScript Bible 7th Edition (Wiley, 2010). http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470526912,descCd-description.html If you're interested please write to me off-list, let me know what publications you write for, and include links to some of your published book reviews. Thanks, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blockquote
At 4/3/2010 07:39 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote: Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need? Check the spec: HTML 4.01 Specification 9 Text 9.2 Structured text 9.2.2 Quotations: The BLOCKQUOTE and Q elements http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 !ELEMENT BLOCKQUOTE - - (%block;|SCRIPT)+ -- long quotation -- This excerpt from the Document Type Declaration specifies that the only children of blockquote permitted are block-type elements and script. In other words, text within the blockquote element must be enclosed in a p, div, list, or other block-type element. Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it? Let's find out. From the above reference: !ATTLIST BLOCKQUOTE %attrs; -- %coreattrs, %i18n, %events -- cite%URI; #IMPLIED -- URI for source document or msg -- This specifies which attributes blockquote may have. The symbol %attrs is defined as: !ENTITY % attrs %coreattrs; %i18n; %events; ...%coreattrs in turn is defined as: !ENTITY % coreattrs id ID #IMPLIED -- document-wide unique id -- class CDATA #IMPLIED -- space-separated list of classes -- style %StyleSheet; #IMPLIED -- associated style info -- title %Text; #IMPLIED -- advisory title -- So yes, you may validly assign a class attribute to a blockquote element. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Use CSS to target last 2 list items
Hi all Just wondering, is it possible to use the nth-child in CSS2 to target the last 2 items of an unordered list? I know you can do nth-last-child, but I wanted to target the last TWO list items. Is this possible? Thanks for any help *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Minimal forms or marking up a search field
A practical distraction for the standardistas and accessibility gurus�
Hoping tap your brain for an alternative perspective on the simple and
common HTML scenario of a site search form.
...
To revisit this topic, I'm considering the
following and would appreciate feedback:
_
a) Submit button as label:
form ...
div
input type=text id=search name=search /
label for=search
input type=submit value=Search /
/label
/div
/form
_
b) Label hidden from view:
form ...
div
label for=search id=search-labelSearch:/label
input type=text id=search name=search /
input type=submit value=Search /
/div
/form
label#search-label
{
position: absolute;
left: -1000em;
}
_
The rationale for both of these is that the
Search submit button serves as a clear and
unambiguous label for the input field. In listing
a) the button is literally the label; in b) there
is a separate literal label present in the markup
but hidden from cosmetic view.
Both validate for W3C HTML Cynthia 528 Accessibilty.
Can you see any problems with them?
I favor a) but it feels edgy.
Regards,
Paul
__
Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com
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RE: [WSG] CSS off button
At 2/4/2010 10:43 AM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote: Here is the page using your example: http://www.doetest.vi.virginia.gov/z_testing_area/kevin/test-css-off-from-wsg2.shtmlhttp://www.doetest.vi.virginia.gov/z_testing_area/kevin/test-css-off-from-wsg2.shtml I recommend that you give folks a corresponding button to turn styling back on after they switch it off. Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] FINAL VERSION OF MY SITE
At 2/3/2010 02:47 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:
http://www.raulferrer.com/joe/html/
Hi Marvin,
Overall I found this to be a clear and attractive site. Good work!
A few quick notes:
1) Phone number formats vary from place to place, but in North
America at least the convention is to insert spacing or punctuation
between the first '1' and the area code. I would change
1800-Joe-Fruit to 1-800-Joe-Fruit unless the Australian convention differs.
2) Many people find phone numbers translated to letters annoying or
difficult to use. I recommend that you repeat the phone number in all
digits: Phone 1-800-Joe-Fruit (1-800-563-37848)
3) The address of the shop at the bottom of the home page looks odd
because the lines are spaced apart, which is the default styling for
paragraphs but not for addresses. I suggest using either a break tag
between lines (addresses and poetry being two good opportunities for
the poor unappreciated break tag to do its thing) or style those
paragraphs with no margin-bottom. In order to separate the mailing
address from the phone number lines, I would do this by enclosing the
physical address in one div and the phone number lines in another:
div class=contact
pJoe's Fruit Shop/p
p55 Main Road/p
pAnytown 2999/p
/div
div class=contact
pPhone: 9555-9876/p
pFor phone orders: 1800-Joe-Fruit/p
/div
with the styling rule:
div.contact
{
margin-bottom: 1em;
}
div.contact p
{
margin-bottom: 0;
}
That will leave a gap between clusters of paragraphs but no space
between the paragraphs themselves inside each div.
4) On the Recipes page you are using break tags to insert space after
the h3 subheads. Please remove them, and any other break tags you're
using for spacing. The amount of space you've inserted here looks
unattractive, it's confusing because it separates a headline so much
from the text that belongs to it, and using break tags in this way
contradicts the separation of content from presentation that is one
of our industry's best practices today. If you want to present more
space after h3's, do so using your stylesheet.
5) The Search page seems out of place and mis-named. It's really an
index to the Produce page, not a search function. I would move the
index to the top of the Produce page. If you want a true Search page
you can do so easily using a common search engine. If you want to
keep this page on its own the way it is now, at least consider
renaming it Produce Index. I would place it immediately before or
after the Produce page in the menu.
6) In your main menu, Fruit And Vegetable Recipes might be better
called Fruit And Vegetable Recipe Links
7) On the Credits page, you've inserted two break tags immediately
inside the first list item, causing Mike Levin's Photo Gallery to
site two lines below its bullet. The main navigation menu has the
same problem, with break tags in the list item for the home page,
causing the nav menu to look broken on this page.
Regards,
Paul
__
Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com
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Re: [WSG] e-mail link
At 2/1/2010 08:29 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote: what is the correct code for the subject line to appear in e-mail. Marvin, here is a link to a summary of mailto syntax: http://www.ianr.unl.edu/internet/mailto.html For much more detail, here is a link to RFC 2368 The mailto URL scheme written in 1998: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2368 As you may know, there are problems using mailto links on a website, one of which is that spam spiders look for them in order to harvest email addresses. There are ways to obfuscate or conceal an email address in a mailto link but many methods are inaccessible or require JavaScript to be running or both. One very low-tech but possibly effective method is to verbalize the email address, such as chris at example dot com with at and dot spelled out. In order to fool the spam bots, you need to conceal both the email address displayed for the visitor and the address within the HTML href attribute. Another problem with using mailto is that it assumes that the website visitor's browser can find an email client on their computer. Best practices urge us not to make assumptions about software installed on users' computers. Many people do not use an email client resident on their computer but instead use an online service such as gmail. Mailto will also fail or cause problems if the visitor is using a public computer at a library or internet cafe. One of the most common solutions is instead use a contact form that posts information to a server-side script which can validate the input, check for obvious spam, and if satisfied generate an email message containing the form input. There are many free contact form scripts kicking around the net in a variety of scripting languages to suit your server. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites
At 1/31/2010 07:52 PM, Russ Weakley wrote: A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites: 1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or poor tab ordering) 2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible A wrinkle in keyboard accessibility is what I think of as the Black Holes of Flash: when a Flash application swallows keystrokes that normally operate the browser such as the CTL and ALT combinations in Windows. It's commonplace in my experience that Flash developers will prevent me from using CTL-w to close the current tab, CTL-TAB to switch to the next tab, ALT-whatever to use the browser's menu, and so on. They're not even re-purposing the keystrokes for new uses in their applications, they're just eating them. Keyboard accessibility can therefore be seen as a matter of degree, not merely true/false. A Flash app might itself be keyboard-accessible but still be quite frustrating for a keyboard user for whom the Flash app is not the only activity in their day. If you can't leave the browser window running Flash without using a mouse, someone's botched their job. An example of a Flash application which itself is, alas, not keyboard-accessible but that does honor browser keystrokes is the jacket designer http://tmathletics.com/designer.php which we produced a few years ago. (The next-gen version we're producing this year will be accessible!) Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
At 1/29/2010 06:09 AM, Jason Grant wrote: I feel there has been LOADS of 'accessibility is a must' type discussion on this list, but at the same time I feel that there is loads of arguments which are essentially 'accessibility for the sake of accessibility'. My point is that we are heading towards the times where 'relevant accessibility' is more important than 'accessibility' per se. Please have a read of my article and comment via email or on the blog itself. http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/accessibility-does-not-matter/ Sorry, Jason, but your essay is so poorly thought out and poorly written that you've given critical readers little to work with. You're just throwing a cat into a dog pen to watch the fun, and it's not even a real cat. If you really think there are types of websites in which accessibility concerns are irrelevant, list or describe them, but really all you're doing is exposing your own lack of broad, deep, and empathetic thinking. When accessibility matters ... * A company cares about their users You could have stopped right there. Glumly, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] I need a professional eye.
At 1/29/2010 08:36 PM, PurencoolGmail wrote: The site is www.purencool.com All I want to know is there too much css? No. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com PS: Are you *sure* this is all you want to know? What does the question mean? Too much CSS for what? If you're concerned about the size of your stylesheets, the two supporting the home page are only 5 KB so I would say No. If you're worried about the number of CSS rules, perhaps because you're afraid it will be difficult to maintain or degrade browser response time, I would say flatly No. Or do you mean that you're worried that the site might be over-styled? I would say no, it looks simple and open (which I like). I'm not positive what over-styled might look like, perhaps with too much decorative detail, but your site doesn't have that problem. I do see some problems with the site most of which have nothing to do with CSS. (Yes, I know you didn't ask.) - Neither the image fader nor the calculator worked properly in my Win Firefox 3.6 or IE8. Shall we assume they're still under development? - The calculator breaks on text-only zoom enlargement. It would be simple enough to style its widths in ems so that it grows naturally with text zoom. - I dislike the fact that your nav menus don't have hover states or an indicator of which page we're currently on. - The footer menu text looks too high in the blue bar at normal zoom, and both menus quickly break cosmetically on text-only zoom. (It's easy to make menus with stretchable graphics.) - The demos aren't enough to sell your apps. I recommend that you take a few paragraphs to detail their functionality, scope, limitations, and flexibility. I don't want to have to download a script merely to find out whether I can use it; that feels pushy and invasive. - It's irritating that your demo pages lose the nav menus so the only way to get back to the rest of your site is by Backing up. Keep in mind that many people will land on a demo page right from a search engine or other link and you want to make it easy for them to browse your site from there. - I think you should let people view the demos immediately, either right there on your home page or on the Services page. Why do we need to go to a separate demo page at all? Far better to integrate the apps right into your own site as an implicit demonstration of their integratability. - Personally I think the delay on your fader is at least twice as long as it should be. Making people wait to watch a cosmetic effect is irritating. - Your home page headline Latest Product or Service is odd. First, the ambiguity of the headline is mysterious; after all, it's your site so you should know whether the content below is a product or a service which are two very different things. Second, you don't have a Products page listed in your nav menus, and the Product or Service featured on your home page is in fact a product, creating an unnecessary and off-putting confusion. Perhaps Services in the top nav menu should be P S. Any feed back would be great and you don't have to be nice. *Whew!* Good luck with your site. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] :: makeready ::
At 1/26/2010 01:07 AM, David Laakso wrote: Comments and suggestions on this site appreciated. markup http://chelseacreekstudio.com/mhr/ The blank alt attributes for the foreground images are brow-wrinklers for me. When an image is in the foreground I figure that it is content that contributes substantially to the comprehension of the site, and I see no reason to withhold that information from search engines and other sightless users. In contrast, when an image is purely decor and contributes aesthetically but not informationally then I like to see it as a background image where it hovers ghostlike, insubstantial, visible but not touching the content nor touchable by a parsing hand. (Of course the aesthetic components of any work are part of its total information, but in terms of the content/presentation dichotomy we work with every day we can usually separate them with little effort. For example, which foreground and background colors you use for a website featuring construction equipment are irrelevant to the product content at hand. The colors might well be relevant to the client if they echo the corporate palette, but not worthy of bringing to the attention of a screen-reader or search engine -- except in those cases where the cosmetic design is brought to the foreground in an article on corporate communication or web design.) Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS off button
At 1/22/2010 12:22 PM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote: Could anyone please tell me if there is a right way to put a clickable button in a web page that will turn off all CSS? To be perhaps overly precise, I'm guessing that you probably don't want to turn off *all* styling because that would render your document as one long string of undifferentiated text, but instead you want to keep the browser's default styling and/or the user's custom styling and suppress the page author's additional styling. The approach would most likely be to strip out the style elements from the html head and the style attributes from all elements on the page. I think it would be unreasonable to ask a program to also suppress styling imposed by client-side scripting but if you were being paid enough this would be doable. The best practice way to do this would be, first of all, to provide a submit button or link that asked a server-side script to re-deliver the current page with style elements and attributes removed. Then you could add a JavaScript layer that intercepted the button click and stripped away styling on the fly. I don't think removing the style elements in the head after a page is rendered has the desired effect, so you'd probably have to delete all the children of the style object in addition to deleting the style attributes on the page. Depending on your purpose, you'd also want to decide whether to strip other presentational elements and attributes at the same time. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] a tiny usability question on web form
At 1/5/2010 06:19 AM, tee wrote: Was making a web form for a commercial software which clientele are mainly from EU countries, in the original form the order of the Country field. The order looks like this: address/street country state city zipcode Maybe I'd been making too many web forms for US and some Asian countries' clients, I find it creates a tiny usability issue for user to have the country field places above state, city and zipcode. From my own experience, I always use tabbing to navigate web form, in a few US sites that I did shopping and that has country, city, state and zipcode setup in a non-US format, I find them to be a usability problem because I didn't read carefully but out of habit (and this is something I expect many web users would do), entered my address expecting them to be in standard US format. My client thinks otherwise: ... from a usability standpoint it seems weird to me to for example show the Country field AFTER the State field. Why? Because the State field is depending on the Country field. I have often placed the nation before the state/province for exactly this reason, but nearly as often my clients protest that it's just too weird and unconventional and they don't want to confuse or put off their customers. One solution is to ask the nation first, perhaps in a form by itself or before the rest of the address fields are revealed. Another solution is the make the state/prov field a plain text field, not a drop-down, and then validate it after the nation is entered (or the default nation is accepted through form submission), and if invalid present a drop-down based on the nation. Another solution is to combine nation prov in the same drop-down: Afghanistan Albania ... Aruba Australia - ACT Australia - New South Wales Australia - Northern Territory Australia - Queensland Australia - South Australia Australia - Tasmania Australia - Victoria Australia - Western Australia Austria ... This wouldn't be egregiously unwieldy unless you broke out a lot of nations rather than just a few. The most common break-downs I do are for Australia, Mexico, UK, and USA. Many nations don't require or prefer a state/province/canton as part of a mailing address. Has anyone here done the leg-work to determine which nations do? On quick google I found this chart of mailing address formats around the world: http://www.bitboost.com/ref/international-address-formats.html#Formats I don't know how up-to-date it is. On the note of US-myopia it's worth pointing out that in many countries (particiularly Europe) the postal code precedes the city, e.g. 00-940 Warszawa Poland ...and some countries such as Russia are big-endians and sequence the address as nation, postal code, city, street address, recipient (although naturally they cope with the little-endian format when processing international mail). Also, remember that ZIP Code refers to the US only; everyone else calls them postal codes or equivalent. ZIP is an all-caps acronym for Zone Improvement Plan coined by the US Postal Service in 1963. Yet more reasons to query the nation first~ Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Ways of sending a HTML email
Hi all, A client of mine wants a HTML email with very little budget! So, I don't want to spend time setting it up in Campaign monitor for him. I'm wondering, can you send HTML emails straight from Word or Acrobat, or something like that these days? I'm not up to speed and can't find any info. It would be good if I could hand him some kind of design he can edit and send himself. Thanks for any advice, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] G'day from Copenhagen!
Hi all, I've decided to stop whinging about the lack of action on Climate Change and do something about it! I am currently in Copenhagen for the Climate Change Summit (COP15), which you've probably been hearing about. There's a load of stuff going on behind the scenes that you won't get to see on the news, such as Klimaforum - a totally seperate people's forum, where anyone can attend. I've setup a Blog about these things, which I'll be updating dailly. http://climatechangestuff.com I'm no expert on this stuff and there is so much technical jargon out there; the point of this trip is to learn more. The focus of the Blog is to document what I'm finding out and make the issues easy to understand. Please take a look if you're interested in Climate Change COP15. I don't want to annoy you with constant messaging if you're not though, so I've setup a Facebook page, if you subscribe here you can get updates: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cozza/18826599?v=wall Or, you can sign-up for email updates on the right hand column of the site. Or Twitter: http://twitter.com/cozzabags Cheers, and and all the best. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [ADMIN] THREAD CLOSED - OFF TOPIC Re: [WSG] G'day from Copenhagen!
Hi all I'm really sorry for that last email, I sent it to the wrong list. Please ignore it! Cheers Paul 2009/12/7 Lea de Groot w...@elysiansystems.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- --- I'm at the Copenhagen COP15 Climate Change Summit Dec 4th-19th Check out my blog: http://climatechangestuff.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] dl as paragraph?
At 10/12/2009 04:01 PM, nedlud wrote: I was just looking at a page on the National Library of Australia web site (http://www.nla.gov.au/services/issnabout.htmlhttp://www.nla.gov.au/services/issnabout.html) and noticed the font rendering was strange in my browser (Firefox 3.5.3). When I looked at the markup to try and understand why, I found that the site seem to be marked up using definition lists for paragraphs. I don't want to jump to conclusions, so can anyone suggest a legitimate reason for doing this? Each paragraph seems to be a new list (not a new list *item*. A whole new list). My guess is that the markup was engineered by someone still learning the ropes. The page content is in the form of a QA and they validly selected a definition list as the markup structure, but then they decided to use h3 for the questions and realized an h3 couldn't be the immediate child of a dl so they dropped out of the list structure for each question. I think a better solution would have been to make the whole FAQ a single dl and drop the h3's. And the text is in a dd tag with no dt. I believe that's valid markup. As I read the DTD, a definition list must contain at least one dt *OR* dd but doesn't require at least one of each: !ELEMENT DL - - (DT|DD)+ -- definition list -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Best book for learning PHP
Hi all, I really need to get better at PHP MYSQL, mainly for customising Wordpress. I'm scouring Amazon and the interweb and finding conflicting opinions. I was just wondering what any of the experts on here recommend?! PS - this isn't off topic, right?! Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts
I third that, those links for light reading are one of the best sources of information I get. Thanks Russ! From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts I also second that. It's become a part of my routine whenever the links come in to comb through them and check out what's going on right now regarding CSS and HTML techniques. :-) On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.aumailto:r...@maxdesign.com.au wrote: Thanks everyone for kind words! Remember, you can email me any time if you have events, resources, new applications, articles or links you want to share/pimp etc :) Thanks Russ On 23/09/2009, at 5:43 PM, Frank Palinkas wrote: Indeed. Spot on Captain! Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software Documentation Localization Core Engineering Consumer Products Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11 http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:52 AM, lisa.kerri...@iird.vic.gov.aumailto:lisa.kerri...@iird.vic.gov.au wrote: me too! fabulous stuff Lisa Kerrigan | Manager Content User Experience www.business.vic.gov.auhttp://www.business.vic.gov.au; www.diird.vic.gov.auhttp://www.diird.vic.gov.au ' +61 3 9651 9176 8 lisa.kerri...@diird.vic.gov.aumailto:lisa.kerri...@diird.vic.gov.au Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development Level 31, 121 Exhibition Street, Melbourne, Victoria 3000. On Wed, 23 Sep 2009, nedlud wrote: I second that. On the other hand, after looking at a few of the links the first few times I received those messages, I now delete them unseen. On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown susi...@uq.edu.aumailto:susi...@uq.edu.auwrote: Hi there I?d just like to send a big thank you to Russ Weakley for taking the time to collate and send this to WSG Announce each week! I always find really interesting stuff there, and usually bookmark a couple of links from it. So, thanks Russ ? it?s really appreciated! -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.comhttp://www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.commailto:ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantixhttp://www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebshttp://www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebshttp://www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Ordered List Best Practice
At 9/22/2009 08:43 AM, Kepler Gelotte wrote: ol type=A lia href=a.pdfFirst/a div class=margin_left_minus_40px h3Subheading/h3 /div /li lia href=b.pdfFirst/a/li lia href=c.pdfFirst/a div class=margin_left_minus_40px h3Subheading/h3 /div /li lia href=d.pdfFirst/a/li lia href=e.pdfFirst/a/li /ol I find this solution problematic. Scrutinizing the markup, I would put a subhead at the beginning of the content it heads, not at the tail of whatever content precedes it. Semantically, if items d e deserve their own subhead, to what extent are they really part of the same list as a, b, c? They might be on the same nesting level, but are they really part of the same list? It would be interesting to see some of the actual content of this list to see why the original poster felt that all five items belong in one list. I guess the bottom line here is that today's HTML doesn't permit us to insert a headline into the middle of a list but gives us this solution: ol li ol li a /li li b /li li c /li /ol h3 subhead /h3 ol li d /li li e /li /ol /li /ol div class=margin_left_minus_40px h3Subheading/h3 /div Aside, is the div really necessary? Could not any necessary styling be applied to the h3 itself? If complicated markup is deemed necessary, for example because of multiple background images CSS3, I myself would rather nest structures inside the headline rather than hang them outside of it so as to reach for a greater semantic clarity. Also, I suggest you use class names that evoke the purpose of a structure and not its presentation. If your class names are going to be as explicit as margin_left_minus_40px then you're no better off than injecting style rules inline. Either way, if you change the graphic design you'll be changing your markup. In this particular example you likely don't need class names at all because you can specify the divs and h3s unambiguously from their position in the markup, e.g. ol.listName li h3 Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
At 8/25/2009 10:11 PM, Andrew Harris wrote: How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions? A typical structure might look like: 1 blah blah blah 1.1 blah blah blah 1.2 blah blah blah 1.2.1 blah blah blah 1.2.2 blah blah blah 1.3 blah blah blah 2 blah blah blah 2.1 blah blah blah 2.1.1 blah blah blah* In all of the discussions of this issue I've read, the final wisdom has been to actually hard-code the numbering of contracts, bylaws, etc. in nested lists, suppressing the normal list-style-type. That might seem retro, but you can't afford to have any of the numbering change because of an editing error. The whole point behind auto-numbering is thoughtless re-numbering, something a legal document cannot tolerate. It would be better to have an accidentally-deleted item leave a hole in the numbering that a proofreader could easily catch than to have HTML automatically close up the numbering sequentially over such an elision. Another advantage is that the numbering is manifest in the markup itself, rather than being a sequence of bare LIs. Someone can snip an excerpt from the markup with the numbering intact. (In this vein, implementing the numbering of a contract with JavaScript sounds about as smart as printing the contract on sheets of ice.) This decision is made easier, of course, by the limited auto-numbering options of HTML! Justification for hard-coding the numbering from a semantic perspective is that the numbering is actually integral to the content and not merely an incidental by-product of its sequence in the greater list. I believe the logic is that once the legal document is finalized, an item's number becomes part of its fixed name used in quoting and references and a great weight of legality rests on the accuracy and persistence of the numbering. Of course, when you're drafting a contract it's handy to use auto-numbering in word processing, but once you get to the final draft stage I'd freeze it for HTML. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] How Important Is Web Accessibility?
I think it's still necessary... These articles sum it up well. http://zomigi.com/blog/why-browser-zoom-shouldnt-kill-flexible-layouts/ http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200906/page_zoom_does_not_mean_the_end_of_flexibility/ From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:08 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How Important Is Web Accessibility? Zooming is present on the majority of modern browsers, so where does this leave elastic layouts, and em's? Should we still develop sites that grow should the user want to increase the text size? Even though it's the lower browsers that do that? I've been out of the scene for a while, so I've lost touch with the current practices and conventions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] How Important Is Web Accessibility?
At least he didn't call us fucktards, like the last bloke :) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:02 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How Important Is Web Accessibility? Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm How hard can that be? On Aug 18, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Scott Andrews wrote: Dont just auto mail me back. Actually delete me *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] The head of the document
Hi all, I'm just curious to know what other people do these days with the header of their document? What is best practice for: - Good search engine rankings - Best charset for English text (utf-8, right?) - Do we need robots - all anymore? - Any Accessibility issues? (Can't think of any) - Does anyone bother with descriptions, keywords anymore? - Dublin Core metadata, is that a forgotten fad?! I'll show you an example of how I setup a standard page, please anyone offer what they think is best practice, or perhaps send any useful links: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xmlns:v=urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml xml:lang=en lang=en head meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8/ meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=en-us/ titleTITLE/title meta name=ROBOTS content=ALL/ meta http-equiv=imagetoolbar content=no/ meta name=MSSmartTagsPreventParsing content=true/ link rel=stylesheet href=STYLESHEET type=text/css media=all/ /head Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] RE: The head of the document
Thanks for your replies everyone... I didn't know Metadata had any influence at all anymore! Thanks for letting me know... Need to get back onto my own sites and add it :) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Nixon Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:43 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] RE: The head of the document Hi Paul From an SEO perspective there is great value put on keywords and titles providing they reflect the content within the document. However if the keywords are over proliferated within the document the index engines tend to pick up on this and mark them down as 'suspect' Content is king! _ David Nixon Consultant Altran CIS UK Tel: +44(0)1625 666910 Mob: +44(0)7964 673164 david.ni...@altran-cis.co.uk www.altran-cis.co.ukhttp://www.altran-cis.co.uk/ [http://www.altran-cis.co.uk/logo.jpg] Please consider the environment before printing this email Altran CIS UK is the trading name for Sutherland Consulting Ltd Office Address: 2 South Park Court, Hobson St, Macclesfield, Cheshire, SK11 8BS Registered Office: 2nd Floor, Shackleton House, 4 Battlebridge Lane, London, SE1 2HP Sutherland Consulting Ltd trading as Altran CIS UK is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3152244 VAT No: 673 1476 25 Please note that Altran CIS UK may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for w...@webstandardsgroup.org. If you are not wsg@webstandardsgroup.org you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify david.ni...@altran-cis.co.uk immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. David Nixon therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Paul Collins Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:15 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] The head of the document Hi all, I'm just curious to know what other people do these days with the header of their document? What is best practice for: - Good search engine rankings - Best charset for English text (utf-8, right?) - Do we need robots - all anymore? - Any Accessibility issues? (Can't think of any) - Does anyone bother with descriptions, keywords anymore? - Dublin Core metadata, is that a forgotten fad?! I'll show you an example of how I setup a standard page, please anyone offer what they think is best practice, or perhaps send any useful links: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xmlns:v=urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml xml:lang=en lang=en head meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8/ meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=en-us/ titleTITLE/title meta name=ROBOTS content=ALL/ meta http-equiv=imagetoolbar content=no/ meta name=MSSmartTagsPreventParsing content=true/ link rel=stylesheet href=STYLESHEET type=text/css media=all/ /head Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Usability in Links
At 7/18/2009 12:58 PM, Bushidodeep wrote: I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link color value. After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for usability testing. Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is it just nit-picking on our part? What I would say to your client is this: Graphic designs communicate much like any language with the elements of the design comprising the vocabulary of meaning. A website design must actually teach us its own design language even as we're using it. While graphic design has a lot of flexibility for creating new terminology with each new design, designs must still abide by certain patterns of human language comprehension if they wish to communicate well. One of those patterns is that elements that look alike mean something similar. Unlike the richness of spoken language that can afford such luxuries as ambiguity, a page has only a few dozen design elements in its vocabulary and therefore each element should express a distinct, unique meaning in order to keep the design easy to understand and quick to apprehend. A page that's confusing leaves the visitor unsure, while a page that's clear helps us feel comfortable and confident while we're reading or using it. Using the same color combination for menu item hover state as to highlight an item the client feels is important is unnecessariliy confusing. Surely the color palette of the overall design is rich enough to come up with a unique combination to represent 'importance'. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Back to basics!
At 7/11/2009 04:44 AM, designer wrote: So you are really saying that typing I have got �100 to spare is OK, instead of: #8220;I have got pound;100 to spare#8221; Absolutely. As an example, look at the HTML source for this page: http://laurietobyedison.com/WOJwords_HanashiroIkuko.asp Scroll down past the nav menu and you'll see both Roman and Japanese text. There are HTML entities in the pages of this site that have survived from an earlier iteration, but none of the quotes and dashes need to be escaped with UTF-8. Just try it -- it will be a revelation. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Back to basics!
Could anyone tell me where there is information regarding character code 'usage' that is simple. I always use UTF-8 and, e.g., if I want to put a left quote in my text I can use quot; or #8220; Which is recommended? ... One of the main points of using Unicode is that you don't need to use entities, other than for a handful of chars used by HTML. Yes! Using UTF-8 in your web pages means NOT having to use HTML entities for text such as #241; or ecirc;. The only HTML entities you need to use in your character data are amp; for '' ampersand, lt; for '' less-than, and gt; for '' greater-than so that those characters don't confuse the HTML parser. To get you started, two basic rules are: 1) Save your HTML/PHP files with UTF-8 character encoding. In many text editors there's a character encoding option in the Save As dialog. 2) Declare UTF-8 as the character encoding in the HTML header, e.g.: meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 / (XHTML has different character set declarations than HTML.) For more details see Richard Ishida's W3C Internationalization pages at http://www.w3.org/International/ Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] working with line-height
At 7/1/2009 07:19 PM, Ben Lau wrote:
This is what I'm trying to achieve:
http://hellobenlau.net/wsg/eg.gifhttp://hellobenlau.net/wsg/eg.gif
So there'll be a div with padding top and bottom of 20px, and with
text inside.
This doesn't look to me like a line-height topic at all. If you
increase the line-height, the lines of text within each paragraph
will separate from one another, and that isn't what your gif
illustrates. It looks more like a (default) line-height of 1.
Instead, this looks like a simple matter of applying padding
margins to the wrapper div its paragraphs.
Now, if we're to take your gif literally, it looks like you've got
17px between the two paragraphs. That implies:
div
{
padding-top: 20px;
padding-bottom: 3px;
}
div p
{
margin-bottom: 17px;
}
div
20px
psome text/p
17px
psome more text/p
17px
3px
/div
Regards,
Paul
__
Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com
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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)
At 6/29/2009 11:46 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: I found that some of these elements take quite some time to integrate. Creating high-contrast CSS can take up to a day (or more if you're new to it), non-Javascript states usually more than an hour because you also have to edit the script. By non-Javascript states do you mean that the website should work in the absence of JavaScript? I like to think that this is where web development should begin, with JavaScript added to enhance, not to provide core functionality. For an example of a high-contrast version may I suggest to check out the Sydney Morning Herald's Travel section (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/). Click on Low vision in the navigation bar (We're going to replace low vision with high contrast since the former can be perceived as discriminatory). The styles you see then have been developed together with a vision-impaired person. FYI, when I click on Low vision and get the high-contrast stylesheet, that right-most menu pick changes to High contrast and is highlighted, indicating that I am now on the high-contrast page. I click it again and I return to the starting stylesheet and the menu pick changes to Normal contrast. This is inconsistent -- first you're using the menu pick as a sign post to another state, and then you're using it as a current state indicator. Was this deliberate? It feels broken to me. Usually I click on menu items in order to go to the named item or to invoke the named change. You're using the menu pick initially in this way, but after you begin using it, it becomes an indicator of the current state rather than a sign post pointing off-stage. I would choose just one of those models, leaning toward sign post. If you want to indicate the current state, I would display both states and highlight the current one. Also, to ditto Jim Croft, it's terribly ironic that this menu pick becomes large enough for a person with limited vision to read only after it's been selected. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] DIV Javascript Problem
At 6/29/2009 02:32 AM, Aaron Wheeler wrote:
taken charge of maintaining a website for a client who uses divs to display
data onto a .htm page. They do not want to use .php and mysql data basing as
they are worried about losing their ranking in the search engines.
Please tell the client that search engines do not use JavaScript,
therefore all content that is displayed on the page by JavaScript
will not be seen by search engines and will not improve their SEO.
This sounds like a classic example of a non-technically-proficient
client making low-level technical decisions that are simply outside
of their purview. In my opinion the scope of their mandate should be
to have a website created that furthers their business model, and to
hire the expertise to make this happen. Exactly which technologies
are used to reach their goal should not be decided by anyone with
little or no experience using those technologies.
body onLoad=loadPrices('ox001, ment001 ,hvh001 ,vhw001')
For modern HTML support you'll want to enclose attribute values in
quotation marks.
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/intro/sgmltut.html#h-3.2.2
To support modern coding principles such as progressive enhancement
and graceful degradation you'll want to strip all JavaScript out of
the HTML and confine it to the linked .js file where it belongs.
http://accessites.org/site/2007/02/graceful-degradation-progressive-enhancement/
The W3C HTML Validator referred to previously can be found at
http://validator.w3.org/
script language=javascript src=rates.js/script
body onLoad=loadPrices('ox001, ment001 ,hvh001 ,vhw001')
div id=hvh001/div
So I was wondering why this does not always work and especially when I seem
to update pages using dreamweaver.
I dunno how this works or why it even works.
It's impossible to say without seeing the complete HTML page and
JavaScript file. If you want help, I suggest you post links to where
they're located. It's possible that the solution to your problem is
simple; if not, it may be beyond the scope of this list to help you
for free and you may have to hire some expertise.
Good luck! You've got a long climb ahead of you, but achieving
altitude to so worth it.
Paul
__
Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com
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Re: [WSG] Expand width of container to fit content's width?
At 6/26/2009 12:58 PM, Stevio wrote: Is it possible to expand a container's width to fit its content? For example, if I have a page where the content is wider than the width available at the browser's current size, which means the horizontal scrollbar appear, I want the container to expand to fit the width of the content instead of having the content sticking out the side (because that makes the design of the page look poor when the user scrolls horizontally). It's always a good idea to include a link to a page where your problem is actually occurring so we can give you pertinent advice. Speaking in generalities, normal behavior is for a container to stretch to contain its content. However, if content is floated left or right or positioned absolutely or relatively, it's taken out of the flow and can visually extend beyond the boundaries of its containing block. The solution is often to float or relatively position the container. If the problem is that you've absolutely positioned your content, I would further recommend that you rethink that plan, as in most cases absolute positioning is an unnecessary, brute-force approach to solve a problem that can be handled much more gracefully with different styling. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
At 6/22/2009 08:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote: To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them. To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser to completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents. Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or provide character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least, it should be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial deference to visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If the visitor wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours. Oh, it doesn't stop with fonts! Some website producers are arrogant enough to force text and images on the visitor instead of allowing them to enjoy the default text and images they have written for their own browser. It's shocking; simply shocking. If people actually wanted to read the text, see the images, and enjoy the graphic and typographic design of other people (give me a break!), they would have connected these computers into a world-wide network and permitted us to browse around looking at one another's... hey... wait a minute... hmm, let me rethink this one. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
At 6/22/2009 08:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote: To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them. To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser to completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents. Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or provide character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least, it should be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial deference to visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If the visitor wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours. I submit that installing a font on one's computer establishes a concrete desire to view text styled in that font to be displayed in that font. Conversely, if we don't wish to see text in a particular font, we can simply remove it or choose not to install it in the first place. We're still at the mercy of PDFs and word processing documents with embedded fonts and Flash movies and docs containing text-as-image, but plain text HTML cannot force fonts on us that we do not choose to see. The user has complete control over their own computer in this regard and cannot be forced or coerced by a document designer. I put it to you that all of the text on a page provides character to the page, not just headlines menus. It is the relationship between different fonts on a page that gives it deeper character. Sans-serif heads are not the same when paired with either serif or sans-serif body text. Please explain the boundary you perceive between body text, which you feel should not be styled by the page designer, and headlines, emphasis, and menuing which you think are OK for a designer to design. Why should the page designer not influence the former and why should the font-sensitive end-user relinquish control over the latter? Further, why should we not influence letter forms but have our merry way with foreground background colors, borders, images, surrounding margins padding, line height, and other stylistic memes that can affect both readability and the reader's aesthetic context just as much as or more than font choice? I suggest we go ahead and suggest font-families but do it intelligently and compassionately, choosing fonts for a particular purpose for their grace and readability and compatibility with column-width and all the rest of the page design. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
At 6/22/2009 12:24 AM, matt andrews wrote:
2009/6/22 Mark Harris w...@tracs.co.nz
The biggest cost I have seen in web design since 1996, when I
started, is the perceived need to make the web like the printed
page. That, and the desire to make it pixel-identical in multiple browsers.
Let the control go to the user, focus on getting information out
there. You can't control everything, just make it make sense.
Absolutely. This is probably old hat (where did *that* phrase come
from?) to most on this list, but if you haven't come across it before,
A Dao of Web Design, a short article by John Allsopp (of Westciv
and Web Directions fame) is a must-read:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/
With respect, a few points:
- Allsop's article (which, although written in 2000 and out-dated in
some of its specific references to browser development, is completely
relevant today) primarily advises us not to try to control font-size.
With regard to font-family he writes, With CSS, you can suggest a
number of fonts, and cover as many bases as possible. But don't rely
on a font being available regardless of how common it is. So his
philosophy DOES permit font-family suggestions and advises merely
against RELYING on any particular font being available. To me this is
a far cry from avoiding font-family suggestions in the stylesheet.
- If we don't rely on the presence of particular font-families and
let go of the desire to make the web pixel-identical in multiple
browsers, then the philosophical problem goes away, does it not?
- Even if we suggest fonts in the stylesheet, they're just
suggestions. I don't consider this to be controlling the user
agent. A suggested font will display if it's on the user's computer
and otherwise default to something that is. The user has ultimate
control in installing fonts of choice and overriding all stylesheets
(including the default stylesheet the comes packaged with the
browser) with their own.
- CSS font-family suggestions are a perfect case of both graceful
degradation and progressive enhancement. The browser ensures that the
text will render if there is at least one font installed on the
client computer, then the stylesheet can suggest a series of families
that more closely approach the designer's ideal. It's a system
guaranteed not to break on even the most rudimentary system, and will
look better and better the more of the desired software (fonts) are installed.
- I submit that suggesting serif and sans-serif in the stylesheet is
exactly as controlling (that is, NOT) as suggesting Georgia or Lucida
Sans. It is 'controlling' in the sense that it's suggesting to the
user agent whether to use a serif font or not, but with no control
whatsoever in determining whether a corresponding font resides on the
user's computer. If I install even one serif font on my computer,
your CSS rule of 'font-family: serif' will invoke that font unless I
override it. If I install only sans-serif fonts on my computer, your
CSS rule will ultimately be ignored and I'll see your serif text in
my Helvetica or Univers.
- There is no such thing as a web page without styling. Every browser
comes with its own default stylesheets which will determine things
like font-size, margins, and padding if not overridden by the
author's or the user's own stylesheets. So we're not really living in
a pure universe in which it's possible not to style. If you don't use
a stylesheet at all, you're just asking the browser to apply its own,
so by refusing to control you're not helping to create a situation of
no control, you're simply passing the buck. As a Buddhist you can
refuse to kill animals but as long as you're alive you can't avoid
killing vegetables and microorganisms and you can't prevent the lion
from taking down the antelope nor the spider the fly. Styling
Happens. Get used to it.
- Finally, if your relinquishing of control extends to not even
suggesting font-families, what do you use stylesheets for? Unlike
font-family suggestions, stipulations of color, margins, padding, and
other properties really are commands and will be carried out in most
browsers. {margin-left: 10px;} doesn't say to the browser if you
feel like it, it says just do it. If you do use stylesheets at
all, it strikes me as odd that you would take exception to named
font-families, the one aspect of CSS that is the least controlling of all.
Curiously,
Paul
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Re: [WSG] more on fonts
At 6/22/2009 05:00 AM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:
hi.
well, the subject that i was taking, and the web page for pinciples of
visual design, my professor, said i have to had fonts, in the style sheet.
that was the requirmenet of this site i was doing for a fruit shop.
Just as a reality check, let me go over how this works.
You don't have to have any particular fonts on your own computer in
order to designate them in a web page.
You create a web page on your computer, upload it to the server, and
after that each visitor who sees the page downloads it to their
computer where it is displayed (rendered). It is the fonts installed
on each visitor's computer that determine how the text will be
displayed on their screens.
If you specify font-families in the stylesheet, you're not DICTATING
what font must appear, you're only SUGGESTING which fonts you'd like
to appear. If a font you've requested isn't installed, it doesn't
show up; that simple.
If you use the stylesheet to ask that some text be rendered in a very
common font such as Arial, it will be displayed in Arial on the vast
majority of visitors' computers. If you use a more unusual font, only
a small number of visitors might have that font and see it on the
page. Everyone else will see your 2nd or 3rd choice font for that text.
For example, if your stylesheet says:
h1
{
font-family: Gothic Rare, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
}
...then the visitor's browser checks to see if it can find a match
with any of the fonts in the list. Gothic Rare will not be found
anywhere because I just made it up. Helvetica is far from universally
installed, but Arial is extremely common so most people will see the
text in Arial. If none of those three fonts is found, 'sans-serif'
tells the browser to use whatever its default sans serif font is
which might easily be different on every computer.
A sans serif font is a font with no serifs. See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans_serif
Does that help clarify any of this?
Regards,
Paul
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Re: [WSG] Using background images on submit buttons
At 6/17/2009 06:45 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: on an ASP.NET-driven site we'd like to use background images for flexible-width submit inputs. Due to the .NET limitation we cannot use the button tag and are stuck with the following syntax: input type=submit value=Button Text / Did you ever style these submit inputs with background images that allowed a flexible width? I have successfully applied a background image to input, for example the join-list form on this pre-launch site: http://innerpeaceyogatherapy.com.s9135.gridserver.com/ I consider the above solution, with its single background image, to be a mediocre, interim placeholder approach because this image with its rounded corners doesn't support text-resizing well. If you enlarge text separately from layout, the background image repeats, spoiling the cosmetic effect. (We're using a fixed width in this instance, but the same applies to horizontal repeats.) In this particular case our background image is such that input text remains legible on enlargement but we sacrifice the cosmetic single-pill appearance. If we were using a plain rectangle with at most say a uni-directional gradient but without special top- side-caps, we could simply allow it to repeat vertically horizontally without cosmetic penalty. To support rounded corners in an enlargeable context, I'd surround each input control with a matrix of divs and apply fragmented background images to those parts to allow for variable height width. ...Pending universal implementation of CSS3's multiple backgrounds! One of the usability/accessibility problems with background images on input fields is that in order for the background image to display you need to override the default border background color. Then if you disable images the input field disappears. I suppose a workaround would be possible in which the input field is positioned on top of a div with a border and/or background color that would show through if the input's background image were missing from the rendering. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Using background images on submit buttons
At 6/17/2009 06:45 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: on an ASP.NET-driven site we'd like to use background images for flexible-width submit inputs. (I apologize for getting off-topic and discussing text inputs instead. Too little sleep!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div
At 6/14/2009 06:02 PM, Andrew Stewart wrote: If you can improve the user experience using JS (why else would you be spending time on it) then you must accept that the user experience for those 10% without JS is going to be worse and hence they are less likely to buy from you, or give you some kind of revenue. Is it really worth spending all this effort to cater for users that in the end may only account for a tiny percentage of sales? Conversely, if you start out by building a robust site with server-side scripting, and then add JavaScript as an enhancement on top, you'll be spending the extra time catering to those with JavaScript, not those without, and by your way of thinking those are the folks who are more likely to bring in more revenue, so the financial model would fit the demographics. However, if someone's not using JavaScript on your site, they probably aren't using it on sites in general. Rather than compare their likelihood to buy with others of your customers who do run JS, compare their experience on your site with their experience on other sites -- the folks you're competing with. If someone is driven to your site because the competing sites are broken or clumsy without JS, then making your own site work competently without JS is a revenue generator. If you try to cut costs by shutting out that 10% or whatever of potential buyers, you're simply driving them to competitors whose sites they can use. I don't see the bottom-line benefit of that. Ten percent, by the way, is an enormous number. I mean, you have to start out by building a robust site -- that's bottom-line, right? You don't go into it with a goal to build a broken one. Is it more time-consuming to build a site that works with and without JavaScript than to build one that breaks without it? Where would the time-savings come in the development plan? If you're validating a form with JS, you still have to validate it server-side so you don't invite hackers. If you're using Ajax to update the server, you still need to write those server-side modules to receive, validate, and process the data; whether the update mechanism is an HTML form submit or a JavaScript XMLHttpRequest you still have to write the same core back-end code. We can certainly imagine pages such as drag--drop layout modifiers whose user interfaces would likely have to be radically different if pulled off completely server-side, but by far most websites have user interfaces that can look very similar if not identical without JavaScript; it's just their response time that isn't as instantaneous when it comes to, say, forms morphing as the user drills into the options. That said, client-server round trips on broadband are pretty fast these days and people are accustomed to waiting for page refreshes on most sites, so I don't think most people would consider that aspect to be a sale-killer. I don't see, for example, Amazon.com suffering for lack of sales because people are too impatient to wait for page refreshes. I am not saying this is definitely the case, but plain statistics about how many users have JS or flash or siverlight etc don't tell you the full story. If a developer has X amount of hours to spend on a site, then it is possible that the most effective way to increase revenue of that site might be to forget about people without JS etc and just create the best experience for the majority of internet users. That's graceful degradation talking. Sit tight, we're sending over the deprogrammers. Sorry if this sounds a bit like heresy. No worries -- a) it ain't religion and b) thinking people welcome heresy. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div
At 6/14/2009 02:25 AM, Ido dekkers wrote: thanks for the help but for some reason, the #id works only for rows that are visible to start with? i added id= to all rows and the #id works only up to row 4? In the earlier page you posted there were ids in only the first four TRs in the HTML source. In its current iteration, I see ids in all twenty rows, and the URI fragment approach does work, e.g. http://test3.dekkers.net/policies/viewer.htm#tr10 how do i get the scrollTop ? https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.scrollTop Because scrollTop is pixel-based, does it fail to give you the effect you're looking for when the user changes text size in mid-process? If so, Keep in mind as always that a JavaScript solution will not work in user agents not running JavaScript, which can include search engines, mobile devices, assistive technology, browsers in certain corporate contexts in which JavaScript is globally turned off or stripped out of incoming pages by firewalls, old browsers, and modern browsers used by folks who turn it off for whatever reason. A developer embracing progressive enhancement (q.v.) will first make sure that the page works for everyone and then add client-side scripting to make it faster and cooler for people using script-enabled UAs. Your policies/viewer page is dead as a doornail without JavaScript running, but it doesn't have to be. It's like you've put all your energy into the icing but forgot to bake the cake. In my own experience, getting a page to work first without JavaScript leads me to such elegant solutions that I end up adding less JavaScript than I had originally thought I would, so everyone wins: the page works universally and it's lighter-weight and more bulletproof for JS-enabled users. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski +1 250-226-7050 skype juniperpaul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div
I incompletely wrote: Because scrollTop is pixel-based, does it fail to give you the effect you're looking for when the user changes text size in mid-process? If so, If so, consider whether the auto-scrolling is critical to the functionality of the page and how confusing it might be if the table auto-scrolls to a different row than was just edited. If both answers are Yes, you may wish to consider a more bulletproof solution. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] functionality without JavaScript [WAS: returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div]
At 6/14/2009 11:28 AM, raven wrote: Keep in mind as always that a JavaScript solution will not work in user agents not running JavaScript, which can include search engines, mobile devices, assistive technology, browsers in certain corporate contexts in which JavaScript is globally turned off or stripped out of incoming pages by firewalls, old browsers, and modern browsers used by folks who turn it off for whatever reason. Hmmm... what exactly problem can cause using of JavaScript *in this case* from SEO point of view? Not having seen the original poster's development plan, we can't judge whether any of the parts that are broken without JavaScript will deleteriously affect its search engine ranking. Because the page was SO dead without JavaScript, I made the assumption that the author wasn't considering scriptless UAs and therefore my remarks were intended generally. Or what browser, *witch you really support*, don't support JS? In my own work, my CSS support for mobile devices has lagged, but as my pages all work 100% in the absence of JavaScript (which I do use in every site I produce) I can say I do support to that extent all the JavaScript-disabled user agents listed at the beginning of this post. (Also I do support witches, but that's off-topic.) And what part of your target auditory even know how to disable JavaScript execution in their browsers? Don't use common words! Give us facts, numbers, tests. So, for example, if I could give you the number of individuals who would be unable to use a website because I built it to unnecessarily require JavaScript, then would you be able to tell me whether that was an acceptable sacrifice in terms of loss of revenue to the client, loss of good will, negative reviews, and negative viral spread? What percentage of your clients' target audiences have you decided to block from the sites you build for no reason other than that you enjoy building cool user interfaces in JavaScript? If a website client of yours hired you to manage an actual storefront and you arbitrarily slammed the door in the face of every 100th, 200th, or even 1000th customer, how long do you think would you keep your job? But graceful degradation is good idea. Graceful degradation is better than nothing, but progressive enhancement rocks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement http://accessites.org/site/2007/02/graceful-degradation-progressive-enhancement/ If you have enough time and budget big enough you may look for solutions for case when JavaScript is disabled. I don't need to. I build sites to work well with server-side scripting, then I enhance the client-side experience with JavaScript. I don't have to justify extra work to make a site functional for any size of sub-market or worry about how many people it's OK to piss off if the site already works for every user agent. I don't provide core functionality with JavaScript. I learned the hard way that doing things the other way around is time-consuming, expensive, and frustrating. JavaScript is fun, but you aren't going to survive long if you consistently eat your dessert before your vegetables. No, first you build a car that runs well, then you add the chrome and fancy sound system. I'd better stop before I think of any more metaphors to throw in the pot. Oops, too late. P.S. In ordinar case if you can get functionality, you need, without JS do it. Exactly. To everyone, I apologize for indulging in a philosophical argument that has already seen so much traffic. Reviewing the wsg list guidelines, I hope this falls into the category of discussing best practices. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div
At 6/13/2009 02:20 PM, Ido dekkers wrote: i'm trying to find a way to get back to the same position in a table that is nested in a fixed height div. only 4 lines of the table are showing and i need after post to the server to get back to the selected line any suggestions are welcome the case in question : http://test3.dekkers.net/policies/viewer.htm Just as you would in a broader context, give each TR a unique ID and add it to the URL to bring it to the top of the (div) window, e.g. http://test3.dekkers.net/policies/viewer.htm#tr4 By the way, the HTML validator caught an illegal character on line 159 span/span. And did you save the source file as utf-8? http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ftest3.dekkers.net%2Fpolicies%2Fviewer.htm Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] What to do with buttons when a user copies text from a page.
At 6/12/2009 01:42 AM, James Ducker wrote: Something I've been pondering - how best to handle buttons and other purely functional content residing within a block of selected text? Often a user will select a bunch of text and get something like: Some Headingminimiseclose Some text etc etc. I was thinking about adding JS mouse drag detection to hide minimise and close (let's say they're a elements) when the user is mouse-selecting text, but it would fail if a user used the text cursor to select. It sounds as though you've already answered your own question -- don't let the controls reside within the block of copyable text. In most circumstances the user will want to copy the header along with the body text of a given section, so rather than inserting the controls in the middle of copyable text I'd put them before or after. If you want the controls to appear to the right of the heading in a left-to-right text flow, you could try putting them first in the markup and then floating them right or absolutely positioning them so the heading and text are contiguous. A more elegant bulletproof solution might be to rethink the page layout and visually place the controls above or to the left of the heading to allow the natural text flow to exclude them from selection. If the controls look like they're in the middle of the copyable text, a user with browsing experience will naturally worry that the controls will get copied along with the text, diminishing very slightly their sense of trust in the intuitiveness of the design. A layout that puts them outside the selection highlight altogether -- modelled by the resize close buttons in pc mac windows that everyone's familiar with -- would be more of a no-brainer to use. Finding a way to reliably make the controls disappear while the user selects text sounds cool -- I can imagine all the ads and navigation and chromy bits disappearing while copying a story from a news site, for example, leaving my clipboard with the story I'm after not needing to be cleaned up -- but it also sounds a bit paternalistic in deciding in advance for an unknown user what they're going to want to select. If you place the controls before the heading in the markup, you leave it to the user to decide whether to include them in the selection highlight. For all you know, their purpose in copying text from the page is to illustrate in a document that aspect of the page layout that includes the controls. There's such a thing as trying to be too helpful. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Image mapping standards question
At 6/1/2009 07:34 AM, Brett Patterson wrote: It has recently come to my attention the struggles of an end-user when viewing images for any user. I have seen sites such as Facebook, MySpace, and other sites where pictures are hosted use roll-overs for recognizing certain parts of an image. I realize that this can be done using image maps as well as when using image mapping, I can add alternative text not only to the img tag itself, but the maps as well to show and describe certain features I feel are important. Are there recommendations for or against this approach? Also consider CSS image maps with pop-ups, e.g.: http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/imap by Stu Nicholls. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Test in Outlook 2007
Hi all, Just wondering, has anyone ever figured out a way of testing Outlook 2007 when you don't have it installed? Wondering if there is some kind of online software that emulates it perhaps? Campaign Monitor offers testing, but it costs a fiver each time you want to check. Would appreciate any help. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Borders in liquid layouts
At 4/17/2009 11:18 AM, Stevio wrote: I have created a web site design, with a graphical border down the sides of the design (15px wide on each side). To implement this using CSS would be quite simple if the design had a fixed width, but I am looking to implement a liquid layout. Essentially I reckon it comes down to equal height columns in liquid layouts. Any suggestions on how to best accomplish this? You could wrap the columns in a nested pair of parent containers that stretch naturally to contain the widest tallest of their children, then apply one border to the left side of outer parent and the other border to the right side of the inner parent. div id=parent-outer div id=parent-inner div id=column-1 /div div id=column-2 /div /div /div Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] 3 column layout issue
At 3/18/2009 12:49 AM, Naveen Bhaskar wrote: Hi, I have a 3 column layout structure. My issue is the content of the center column is shifting down . pls help me to fix this.. First, test your markup and styling using these validators and make sure there are no errors. HTML: http://validator.w3.org/ CSS:http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ Second, give us a hyperlink to a page on a server where we can see the problem occurring. There are a number of reasons why this could be happening and we'd have to see your markup styling to help troubleshoot. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Isn't CSS about seperating presentation from content? You apply it once in your CSS as opposed to multiple times in your HTML. In actual fact, if you're only developing for IE6+, Firefox 2+, Webkit Browsers, Opera, you only need the overflow:auto; usually. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: On 9/2/09 07:45, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div? See http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59 Thanks, but I find the extra DIV no more objectionable than the hackery and extra CSS described in that article. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li
Thanks very much for that James, I was trying to avoid using the conditional comments - I don't normally use them, but it seems the only way in this case. I've put that in now, so thanks very much for your help. Cheers Paul From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Ducker Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:12 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li I fixed it in IE7, though that caused the problem that was occuring in IE7 to occur in Firefox. If you don't mind a conditional, problem solved! See it at: http://studioj.net.au/wsg/pcl.html - James On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Paul Collins p.coll...@twentyfirst.commailto:p.coll...@twentyfirst.com wrote: Thanks for your replies everyone. I'm not explaining the problem well, so I've created a demo page: http://paulcollinslondon.com/temporary/test.html If you take a look at it in IE7 and Firefox, you should be able to see the difference. The first li is taller than the second one, causing the fourth one to float up higher than the third, (in IE only). If I clear the left, it works in Firefox, but in IE the fourth one still floats up. I know I've solved this a while back and I've seen solutions on the internet, but for the life of me I cannot find them again! Any ideas would be most appreciated. Cheers Paul -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li Paul Collins wrote: I can add a class of clear to every third list item, which is great, but I'm still having troubles in getting them to behave in IE. Has anyone got a solution, or seen on online lately?! Didn't check for the actual case, but it's usually safer to declare 'clear: left' than 'clear: both' when trying to clear left-floats in IE. IE has quite a few 'clear' related bugs, and I think this is one of them. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- James Ducker Web Developer http://www.studioj.net.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li
Thanks for your replies everyone. I'm not explaining the problem well, so I've created a demo page: http://paulcollinslondon.com/temporary/test.html If you take a look at it in IE7 and Firefox, you should be able to see the difference. The first li is taller than the second one, causing the fourth one to float up higher than the third, (in IE only). If I clear the left, it works in Firefox, but in IE the fourth one still floats up. I know I've solved this a while back and I've seen solutions on the internet, but for the life of me I cannot find them again! Any ideas would be most appreciated. Cheers Paul -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li Paul Collins wrote: I can add a class of clear to every third list item, which is great, but I'm still having troubles in getting them to behave in IE. Has anyone got a solution, or seen on online lately?! Didn't check for the actual case, but it's usually safer to declare 'clear: left' than 'clear: both' when trying to clear left-floats in IE. IE has quite a few 'clear' related bugs, and I think this is one of them. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li
Hi all,
I'm surprised I can't find the answer to this on the interweb; I haven't had to
do it for a while!
I have a list of about 10 items, all of varying heights (but fixed widths), in
a single ul. I want to clear every third list item and start a new row. Of
course, if they are different heights, the list items will float all over the
place - I'm sure we've all been through this!
I can add a class of clear to every third list item, which is great, but I'm
still having troubles in getting them to behave in IE. Has anyone got a
solution, or seen on online lately?!
Here is the code:
CSS
ul#imageLibraryList li {float:left; width:150px; display:inline; margin:0 20px
15px 0;}
ul#imageLibraryList li.clearLine {clear:both;}
HTML
ul id=imageLibraryList
li class=clearLine
a href=/
img
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1297_148_148_75.jpg
alt= /
strongAlder_140x30.jpg/strongbr/
dfjdsflkjlk
/a
/li
li
a href=/
img
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1291_148_148_75.jpg
alt= /
strongAlder_140x30_BUMP.jpg/strongbr/
/a
/li
li class=clearLine
a href=/
img
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1152_148_148_75.jpg
alt= /
strongAlder_190x30.jpg/strongbr/
/a
/li
li
a href=/
img
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1252_148_148_75.jpg
alt= /
strongAlder_190x30_BUMP.jpg/strongbr/
asdsdfdssf
/a
/li
li class=clearLine
a href=/
img
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1202_148_148_75.jpg
alt= /
strongAlder_240x30.jpg/strongbr/
/a
/li
li
a href=/
img
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1181_148_148_75.jpg
alt= /
strongAlder_240x30_BUMP.jpg/strongbr/
/a
/li
/ul
Please ignore invalid code, I can assure you it's not finished! Just want to
figure out a way to clear the line in all relevant browsers.
Cheers
Paul
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[WSG] seeking JavaScript Bible comments
I would love to get your critical comments on Danny Goodman's JavaScript Bible http://ca.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470069163.html I'm updating the book to its 7th edition and am making some significant changes, including upgrading it to include separation of layers progressive enhancement. Do you have any other criticisms of the book, either minor or major, that I should consider in the rewrite? I would be grateful for your detailed remarks. Thanks, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Re: Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Doesn't ie6's highest security setting turn js off? I haven't looked at ie7 but would assume similar. Regards Paul -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Simon Pascal Klein Sent: Tuesday, 27 January 2009 2:59 PM To: Jessica Enders Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Re: Users who deliberately disable JavaScript Comments inline: On 27/01/2009, at 7:33 AM, Jessica Enders wrote: Hi Pascal In the JavaScript/Accessibility/form validation discussion you mention the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript. I'm always curious just how many people this is. Do you, or does anyone else, have any statistics on this? Is there a reason you describe it as a growing number? Any information greatly appreciated. No, I don't have access to any statistics on the matter. I want to clarify that my comment does not address the growing number of new Internet users who most likely will have JavaScript turned on or the majority of users in a holistic sense. I don't think the users that disable JS are a majority but I definitely think they are on the rise as many security experts are recommending JS to be disabled by default. Whether or not JS-disabled users are a statistic worth noting should not be in question here. I think Anthony Ziebell puts it best: JavaScript should be implemented only to supplement / layer existing functionality. Your site should operate just fine without it... There are always exceptions to this rule however you shouldn't let JavaScript dictate how you code. Kind regards. -Pascal Cheers Jessica Enders Principal Formulate Information Design http://formulate.com.au Phone: (02) 6116 8765 Fax: (02) 8456 5916 PO Box 5108 Braddon ACT 2612 On 19/01/2009, at 11:14 PM, Simon Pascal Klein wrote: If there were further communication between the user and server between submission of the form that would entail a page reload then a screen user shouldn't have an issue, whereas if JavaScript would run in the background and inject errors or suggestions as it thinks the user makes them (e.g. password complexity recommendations, username not available messages) numerous accessibility issues arise. The only solution that came to mind was having a generic message (such as 'please fill out all marked (*) fields' or the like) that could be hidden using CSS and through JavaScript 'unhidden' when an error appears (though it could only be a generic error). As dandy as these automatic feedback and error messages are through JavaScript maybe a full submission and subsequent page reload is best-after all it's impossible to tell those users using an accessibility aid like a screen reader from those who do not, and hey, the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript won't see the glitzy JavaScript injected errors anyway. Just my 0.2¢. On 19/01/2009, at 5:52 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Isn't 'aria-required' a non-standard attribute? Sadly, yes. But there is some hope: it is possible that ARIA will be accepted in HTML5 and there is an initiative to provide validation for (X)HTML+ARIA: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Sep/0381.html Validator.nu already has experimental support for HTML5+ARIA, and I believe (did not check) http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/ provides the same for document type HTML5. There is also a possibility to add ARIA attributes with Javascript. All the options are controversial, but that's how it is for now :( Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Concept designer (w) http://klepas.org (e) kle...@klepas.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
RE: [WSG] Browser / OS Test on website.
Hi Danny, The site looks great, just had a quick flick through. My only suggestion would be to repeat the main navigation at the bottom of each section, so you don't have to go back to the top every time you've read the section. Cheers Paul From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Danny Croft Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Browser / OS Test on website. Hi All, I was wondering if any of you get a spare minute, could you cast your professional eyes over a site I just put online. Its only a small online resume type site. But I'd be interested to see if anyone could find any issues with it or had any suggestions for items that I may have missed. I have done some testing and it passed the online W3C Validation Service for both the markup and CSS. Also if anyone is running an OS other than OSX (v 10.5.6) then I'd be interested in your results on any of the current browers. Like I said, only if you get a minute. Link: http://dannythewebdev.com (almost forgot to add the link) Cheers, Danny *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
I'm not sure if this will make it to the table, but it is truly worrying. If they went to the extremes outlined though, don't you think that generally the public (not just the web development community) would put up such a stink about it, the government would be forced into taking several steps back. The things is, once they implement something like this, as other laws, it's hard to turn it back and get rid of it, no matter who we vote for next. The people with the strongest voices are these lobbying groups, such as Getup, but most of them represent religious views and those of the older generations, who would easily be scared into thinking that we need internet censorship or else. Last time I checked, Australia was still a democracy, and while *somebody* must have voted for Conroy, we (Australians) still get a say. Even if you voted for him, you don't have too much control over what he does for the 4 years after that. How often do you pop down and visit your local senator for a chat?! I hope the Getup campaign gets enough votes to put this to a halt. Glad we have Getup out there. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Suitters Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 5:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia Yes, real, definitely. But think about it, the government would already, and in some part already do filter information. If they went to the extremes outlined though, don't you think that generally the public (not just the web development community) would put up such a stink about it, the government would be forced into taking several steps back. Unfortunately though, even though the government is supposed to work in the best interests of it's people, they don't in the long run. Blake wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, it's certainly not spam. It's been all over news, whirlpool, everywhere. Yes, it's definitely real. I feel ashamed of being Australian right there. -- Blake Haswell http://www.blakehaswell.com/ | http://blakehaswell.wordpress.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
Hi all, Just to elaborate on this one, has anyone ever found a way to remove the left indent on the legend element in IE? I don't care if I have to add a SPAN inside the LEGEND element, I just want to make sure the text will be left aligned correctly in all browsers. Please send a link if you know a good one! Cheers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 2:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines? On Nov 26, 2008, at 6:15 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: 2) I have a column that is 160px wide, but the text in legend is a bit longer, I added a span class, declared a width, but in Firefox, the text still refuse to run in two lines - the rest of the text simply get cut off when the words reaches 160px threshold. I really don't want to add a br /, and it will be more ridiculous to use a p tag for the text so that I can force it display exactly the way my client wanted, then use a negative text-indent to hide the legend. Did you set the span to display: block? Yes, that is the first thing I did. No use. Here is a quick page I just did. http://lotusseedsdesign.com/csstest/legend.html tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
Just to add to this, you can monitor Senator Conroy via email updates and message him through the Getup wesbite. http://www.projectdemocracy.com/senator/senator.php?senatorid=15 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jelina Korhecz Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia I agree with Dave--a letter to Senator Conroy is the best approach. The website previously mentioned (http://nocleanfeed.com/) is also a good place to start if you want to take action. I'm extremely concerned about this plan (and have been since I heard about it a months ago) because at first it seemed like everyone in a position of power thought it was a good idea... despite the fact that their filtering trials clearly showed that a mandatory filter wasn't feasible with the technology currently available. Luckily (and I apologise if this has already been mentioned in a previous email), iiNet--an Australian ISP--has signed up to the live testing that is due to begin mid-December. They have said that they will take part in this test to demonstrate to the government how ineffective an ISP level filter is at the present time. You can check out what they have to say about it on their website: http://www.iinet.net.au/about/news/internet_filtering.html Unfortunately, iiNet have received bad press lately because of a lawsuit brought upon them by the AFACT (Australian Federation Against Copyright Theft--see http://www.lawfont.com/2008/11/21/the-case-against-iinet/ for more info). However, some are saying that this case and iiNet's position on the mandatory filtering scheme are connected (which is why the AFACT went after iiNet and not a larger ISP like Telstra Bigpond), but I'll let you make your own mind up about the link between the two. (See http://defendingscoundrels.com/2008/11/iinet-lawsuit-no-coincidence.html for more.) Don't get me wrong--anything that can stop something that is as horrible as child porn I support. But I honestly do not think this has any chance of working. Please do what you can to help stop this filter going ahead. Otherwise I might need to move countries :( My 2c :) On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:42 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't have sent this to the group if I'd had even the slightest idea it was spam. Getup.org.au is a genuinely good site. IceKat. Brett Patterson wrote: 1) That, I do believe is a crock of shit! 2) If he does anything like that, he will be dead!!! --and-- 3) Anyone who believes in those ideas are fucked up, stupid, and this I can promise, will NOT make it in this world, dead or alive! 4) Like I said, I think this a crock of shit, and possibly spam. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:56 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Usually I'm suspicious of this stuff but I happen to know that Get Up is legit and thought the Aussie members of this list might like to know about this. IceKat. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thought you might be interested Love Mum - Original Message - http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 Dear Helen, Imagine a government proposing an internet censorship system that went further than any other democracy - one that made the internet up to 87% slower, more expensive, accidentally blocked up to one in 12 legitimate sites, and missed the vast majority of inappropriate content. This is not China, Saudi Arabia or Iran - this is the vision of Senator Stephen Conroy for Australia. *Testing has already begun.* The community must now move to stop this plan. *Click here to save the net:* *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet* http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 The system that Senator Conroy wants is *a mandatory filter of all internet traffic*, with the government of the day able to add any unwanted site to a secret blacklist. Already, the wrangling has begun for the inclusion of material relating to anorexia, euthanasia and gambling. It isn't difficult to see *the scheme is open to abuse*. Even when it comes to preventing child p-rnography, the filter will not prevent peer-to-peer sharing and is very simple to sidestep. *The protection of our children is vitally important* - that's why we can't afford to waste funds on this deeply flawed system. We should be concentrating on solutions that are more effective and won't undermine our digital economy or our
RE: [WSG] Accessible and cross browser online slide system
Lisa, On behalf of other list members, any chance of turning return receipts off? :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Email form builder
Hi all, Does anyone know of a free online resource for building a form that sends an email? One that's aimed at people with limited knowledge of databases. I'm trying to locate one for a friend. He'd like to add his own customisable fields too. Most of the ones I am searching for want you to pay for it. Would really appreciate any help. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browser loading images issue
Hi there, A bit left field, but I've had this issues *similar* to this before. It sounds like a network or ISP cache issue. Once it was a company proxy not grabbing the latest files from the webserver and serving up old code, the other time, an ISP was caching website data in their proxy to limit load on their webservers. In the 2nd instance, we had to call the ISP and have them manually remove the domain form their cache list. You may want to contact the ISP / hosting company to make sure the site isn't on a cache list. Worth a shot (the site looks fine for me here in New Zealand :) ) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
I am out of the office on Friday, September 12, 2008. I will monitor my e-mails and phone messages via my Blackberry and will respond when I am able to do so. If there are any issues that that require an immediate response, please contact Mark Costello, Mike May, or Terry Coullette. Thank-you, Paul Paul F. Cantwell Systems Librarian/Web-Content Manager United States Department of Justice Washington, DC 20530 Desk: 202.616.0985 Mobile: 202.532.5392 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
I am currently out of the office. I hope to return to the office on Wednesday, September 10 . I will monitor my e-mails and phone messages via my Blackberry and will respond when I am able to do so. If there are any issues that that require an immediate response, please contact Mark Costello, Mike May, or Terry Coullette. Thank-you, Paul Paul F. Cantwell Systems Librarian/Web-Content Manager United States Department of Justice Washington, DC 20530 Desk: 202.616.0985 Mobile: 202.532.5392 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Google chrome... Coming very soon...
Unless you're behind a firewall which requires proxy auth. In this case, you'll need to wait until tonight :( http://thingsilearn.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/attention-software-developers-dont-make-assumptions-about-my-internet-connection/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Google chrome... Coming very soon...
Hi Tee, According to product info, it's been in private beta for a while. This is the first public beta (well, to 100 or so countries anyway) Rest assured a Mac ( *Nix ?) version will follow soon :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Hi Schalk, Glad you raised this. We built a new section of our site a while ago which required different treatment from our normal text h1's. I looked at the image replacement route and found the approaches kludgy and overwrought. I ended up doing exactly what you said: h1a img src= alt=Page Heading ../h1 Looks fine, and the pages revert back to the standard h1 text style when images are off. You can see the results here: http://tinyurl.com/5b3bwg The image inside the h1 is simple, accessible and effective. Go with your gut :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Hi Joe, Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and use, be it open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at the moment and would be interested to hear your thoughts. Cheers Paul From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/. I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO. Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT complicated to do? Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote: I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine - julesroc.com.au I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within their site. Cheers Adam magento user: tweakmag - Original Message - From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Anyone tried these? Someone just recommended them here: http://www.shopify.com/ http://www.freecsscart.com/ http://www.tradingeye.com/department/products/ Cheers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:51 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I've recently started to use drupal with the ubercart module. It's really easy to set up and it's pretty easy to theme too. drupal on its own is a great cms. Download the whole package from ubercart though http://www.ubercart.org/downloads The deluxe package includes drupal and some extra modules. I would steer clear of zencart - not keen on that software at all. Not very easy to customise. Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Joe, Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and use, be it open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at the moment and would be interested to hear your thoughts. Cheers Paul From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/. I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO. Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT complicated to do? Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote: I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine - julesroc.com.au I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within their site. Cheers Adam magento user: tweakmag - Original Message - From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rg *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rg *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rg *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
Very good point Jens, I didn't realise my doctype was transitional. Sorted that now and the validation problems are there. Yes, I think you're spot on there, most of the forms I have here are just for search, email signup, etc, so no reason I couldn't have them as part of the same fieldset. Cheers Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Brueckmann Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset 2008/8/7 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is one I've never been sure of; should the submit button be in a seperate fieldset, or should it even be in a fieldset at all because it is not a group of fields; it's a button on it's own. For example: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ /fieldset input type=submit/ /form As opposed to: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ input type=submit/ /fieldset /form Hi Paul, in strict (X)HTML documents, the FORM element must only contain block elements [1]. Therefore, an INPUT element as a direct child of FORM would be invalid for documents with strict DTDs. Using transitional DTDs, the FORM element may as well contain inline elements such as INPUT. Apart from considering the validity of the markup in question, the complexity of the form could guide one. In your example with a single text input field one might view the submit button to be part of this same fieldset. In more complex forms, e.g. a feedback form which requires input of name, e-mail, and a textarea for free text, the submit button would rather require its own FIELDSET or DIV or P parent element. Cheers, jens [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FORM -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
Hi Mike, Thanks for the reply. When you say fieldset labelled, you mean the legend, right? I've actually not been using a legend tag in this instance because the design doesn't warrant it. Case by case basis I guess. But yes, both you and Jens are right that it depends on the content. Cheers again, Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? I see little issue with the semantics of the form, since the button will still be contained within that boundary, even if it goes outside a fieldset. (Validity of XHTML being a slightly separate argument, especially if, like me, you never use it.) Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
That was my thinking originally Stuart, which is why I put up the post. The submit button isn't part of a group, so I thought it shouldn't be in a fieldset. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:36 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset -- Stuart Foulstone. On Fri, August 8, 2008 11:29 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? Fieldsets separate related input fields into different sets for ease of comprehension. The closing of a fieldset leads the user to expect another fieldset, a lone input field or a submit button. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
Hi all, This is one I've never been sure of; should the submit button be in a seperate fieldset, or should it even be in a fieldset at all because it is not a group of fields; it's a button on it's own. I usually put groups of fields in a fieldset, then have the submit button on it's own outside of the fieldsets. Would like to know what everyone else does?! For example: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ /fieldset input type=submit/ /form As opposed to: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ input type=submit/ /fieldset /form Any thoughts?! Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] @import rule
Hi all, Just working on someone else's website and they are using the @import rule to include their CSS. I usually use the link rel method. I am wondering, is there really any reason not to use @import, be it Accessibility, standards, etc? I don't want to pull in other stylesheets into the one I'm using, so I have no need for the @import. Would appreciate your advice. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] resetting input boxes
Hi Kevin, It's not clear what you're trying to achieve. Can you give us some more information? Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Multiple Firefox on Mac
Hi all, Does anyone have a link to a decent reference on running Firefox 2 3 simultaneously on Mac? I can't seem to find a decent one out there. Basically, I've created the new profile, installed Firefox 3 under a different name, but I can't find any information on how you create shortcuts to the programs on the Mac so I can add the noremote stuff. Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Forcing a vertical scrollbar in Firefox 3
Hi Jen, Your comment may have come across as a bit more negative than it was intended, however: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fairfax.com.au%2Findex.ac (46 errors) He who lives in a glass house etc, etc... My opinion (and it is just that) is the we need to stop being so critical about trifling matters like this. I applaud Opera for their involvement in web standards and for their commitment to put a resource like this together even when it doesn't seem to offer a direct business benefit for them. Lets keep it positive folks. It won't be pretty if we start assigning value to people by how their sites look through the validator. Happy Friday :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Sorry, haven't been around for a few days. Thanks for the replies everyone. Much appreciated and I can now talk about mobile development with more confidence! Cheers 2008/6/25 Darren Lovelock [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: 25 June 2008 11:10 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: RE: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS I agree, this is not web standards. However remember they could be following web standards with their CSS version. and I don't think it is just in the UK, it is every where for Vodafone. Which not only defies any effort you made to put the thing together for presentation standards as well. I think it is their solution to controlling the user experience on handset side of things when someone accesses mobile web. Why don't they let the community sought it out? It seems now that if standards are to be effective in the mobile access space, there is now another hump to get an open standard. are they doing this for all sites on all types of phones or only changing it if the phone's browser can't handle the original format/doctype/css/etc The latter is nothing new... Google has been doing it for years for pages linked from mobile search results allowing even ancient phones to browse pages they would not otherwise be able to look at. (ie making them accessible!) -- I believe that they are changing all types of phones. I have a sony ericcson k800i and it modifies the pages on that unless I go in the vodafone account settings and switch it off. It works fine without it! The Novarra proxy is over-riding the handheld stylesheet when I visit my website. This is because my site will deliver the standard stylesheet as it detects Novarra's user agent and not my mobile's. So it affects any site regardless if they are already mobile friendly! Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! Any advice or links would be great. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
Thanks for your replies everyone. I finally got both versions working! 2008/6/23 Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 2008/06/23 11:42 (GMT+0100) Steve Green apparently typed: You can still get some old versions from the Mozilla FTP site at http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/ It's ludicrous that they have removed some old versions - can they really not afford the disk space? Obviously users should not be installing old versions but developers and testers still need them for testing. We download and store all the English versions but it's not practical to save all the localised versions too. They should still be there, but on http://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/ . That is currently redirecting to http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/ which I think is broken behavior. ftp://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases works. -- Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Thanks for your replies everyone, those are good resources. 2008/6/24 Jens Nedal [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! In addition if you are trying to locate which mobile browser from which mobile vendor is coming along, this universal XML File called WURFL might help alot. It contains information about the capabilities and features of many mobile devices and more. http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ regards, Jens *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
Hi all, Thanks for your replies to this thread last week. I'm on a PC today and trying to get both versions of Firefox running, the only issue is, I can't find where to download version 2 of Firefox anymore! Mozilla have made it very hard to find previous versions Does anyone know where you can get version 2?! Cheers 2008/6/19 Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: select custom install and install it to another directory (something like /Mozilla/Firefox3) and the two will run side-by-side. You can do this with Opera too. :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
Thanks Sagnik, that is a good site! 2008/6/23 Sagnik Dey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Paul, You can download Firefox Ver 2.0 from . http://www.oldapps.com/firefox.htm This is a very good website for downloading older appz. -- Cheers to life Sagnik :: 26four79.com On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Thanks for your replies to this thread last week. I'm on a PC today and trying to get both versions of Firefox running, the only issue is, I can't find where to download version 2 of Firefox anymore! Mozilla have made it very hard to find previous versions Does anyone know where you can get version 2?! Cheers 2008/6/19 Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: select custom install and install it to another directory (something like /Mozilla/Firefox3) and the two will run side-by-side. You can do this with Opera too. :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
select custom install and install it to another directory (something like /Mozilla/Firefox3) and the two will run side-by-side. You can do this with Opera too. :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems
Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page. Rubbish - I quote myself all the time! :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems
Must you Australian's *always* have the last say? ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Re: Multiple Language Domains
Hi Jay, Sorry I meant that our system is currently putting the xml statement before the doctype and so causing the quirks mode problem, and we cant figure out why as it is not doing it on all pages. We were aware of this problem and its on my fix list in fact i am working on it now :) Would be good to know if you can still see the problem on the website, and if so on which pages as currently there is no quirks mode at this end now, but it appears to show up outside our network. Feel free to email me off list. thanks for all the help Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
Does anyone know if it will replace your version of Firefox 2, or will it run side by side?! Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Multiple Language Domains
Many thanks for the feedback guys. We wont be using a splash page but I have taken the other points on board and will look into them. The quirks mode issue, should not be there, we think the system is putting that in place for us!! Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Multiple Language Domains
Hi Guys, I am currently in the middle of building a site which has to be bi-lingual. We have two domains for the site www.ourwales.org.uk and www.cymruni.org.uk I am looking for suggestions/help on how to handle the two domains. Currently ourwales is the prominant/main domain and the one to which the IP details of the site are set. We are then using an alias within apache to also point cymruni to the same site. So you see the same site when you visit, but have two different domains. Both these domains are advertised. I have a few worries though, currently both domains point to the english language version of the site, this will be changed so cymruni goes to the Welsh language side. Although the language is the same and its possible for people to flip between the two languages is it possible that google will see the site as duplicate content? Also we are having trouble getting the alias to append the lang=cy to it on first visit. My thought was to make the ourwales domain the prominant one, and set up a folder with a 301 redirect in it which says cymruni.org has moved permanantly to ourwales.org.uk/lang=cy that way we have only one domain indexed. The reason for writing to this group is two fold 1, how does this affect usability and what is 'best practice' in this situation? 2, How have/would you implement a problem like this? Ideally we want to provide the smoothest and friendliest experience to both the user and SE whichever domain they use. thanks Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Outlook 2007
Hi all, I am building an email for Outlook 2007, oh joy. I am aware that you can no longer use background images, that's fine. The one thing I want to confirm is whether the background colour will disappear when you nest a table inside your TD. I can't test here, but this will cause me a lot of pain. So, for example: table cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0 border=0 tr td bgcolor=#00 table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0 tr tdSome text/td /tr /table /td /tr /table Will I lose my black background there on the outer table, or can I just add it again to the inner table? Obviously the outer table has a cellpadding of 10, so I need the black background to appear on both. Thanks for any help. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AJAX short courses london
Oh yes, I'm not bothered about Accredations really. More concerned about the quality of the course and most employers I've come across are more concerned with your experience. Cheers again! 2008/6/3 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, Sorry, I lost this thread. Perhaps you are right about the online training with Video. I just find it easier to have someone to ask face to face - you learn quicker that way. I'll look into this IRC thingo, never actually taken a look. Thanks for your replies. Paul 2008/6/3 Jennie K [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are probably right - it's just some employers demand accreditation - although I am in Aus not UK (so Í'm sure it's different here). I learnt most of my skills on the job and from books but ended up getting some kind of accreditation as well. Also just wanted to let you know its $50 US dollars not pounds - so you might find it is only 25 UK pounds On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 3:38 AM, Ben Dodson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I've always learnt things from either books or from chatting with other developers in IRC (there are no doubt some ajax specific groups - I recommend #jquery for the jQuery library which is my particular ajax weapon of choice). Accreditations are definitely not required in the web development world - the worst developers I've interviewed are always the ones with accreditations whereas the best have just taught themselves or been taught by their peers! Cheers, Ben -- e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://bendodson.com/ On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so where else can you be taught in bed for £50* (*stop sniggering in the back there!) and as for accreditation, some of my best developers were not accredited and their experience counted for much more than any course could provide. They are much better at independent thinking, self-study for things they need to know more about, and less likely to get stuck in a conceptual rut. Joe On May 30 2008, at 22:39, James Jeffery wrote: Only problem with the Lynda.com DVDs is sometimes they can be outdated. Although, this one is £50 and looks good. I might actually buy this, i like watching the movies when in bed. http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=480 On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. I have rarely seen any course in web technologies that you couldn't get further for much less money with either a video tutorial from places like lynda.com or from good how to books from great publishers like new riders, friends of ed, o'reilleys, etc. you can study at your own pace, replay and review difficult bits, skip over others, and the resource stays with you.. On May 27 2008, at 05:28, Jennie K wrote: If you are not after accreditation try this website www.lynda.com - it's all online and you study at your own pace. I've recommended the training to numerous people and they have all said it is of good quality. You can try some of the free courses before committing - there are also books and cds if you don't like the online version. On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 11:20 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I hope this is on topic. I'm trying to find a short course on AJAX in london and having troubles finding one that is of a reasonable price (IE- less than £300 for a half day). Could anyone recommend me one or possibly a good school to look into? Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail
Re: [WSG] AJAX short courses london
Hi all, Sorry, I lost this thread. Perhaps you are right about the online training with Video. I just find it easier to have someone to ask face to face - you learn quicker that way. I'll look into this IRC thingo, never actually taken a look. Thanks for your replies. Paul 2008/6/3 Jennie K [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are probably right - it's just some employers demand accreditation - although I am in Aus not UK (so Í'm sure it's different here). I learnt most of my skills on the job and from books but ended up getting some kind of accreditation as well. Also just wanted to let you know its $50 US dollars not pounds - so you might find it is only 25 UK pounds On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 3:38 AM, Ben Dodson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I've always learnt things from either books or from chatting with other developers in IRC (there are no doubt some ajax specific groups - I recommend #jquery for the jQuery library which is my particular ajax weapon of choice). Accreditations are definitely not required in the web development world - the worst developers I've interviewed are always the ones with accreditations whereas the best have just taught themselves or been taught by their peers! Cheers, Ben -- e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://bendodson.com/ On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so where else can you be taught in bed for £50* (*stop sniggering in the back there!) and as for accreditation, some of my best developers were not accredited and their experience counted for much more than any course could provide. They are much better at independent thinking, self-study for things they need to know more about, and less likely to get stuck in a conceptual rut. Joe On May 30 2008, at 22:39, James Jeffery wrote: Only problem with the Lynda.com DVDs is sometimes they can be outdated. Although, this one is £50 and looks good. I might actually buy this, i like watching the movies when in bed. http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=480 On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. I have rarely seen any course in web technologies that you couldn't get further for much less money with either a video tutorial from places like lynda.com or from good how to books from great publishers like new riders, friends of ed, o'reilleys, etc. you can study at your own pace, replay and review difficult bits, skip over others, and the resource stays with you.. On May 27 2008, at 05:28, Jennie K wrote: If you are not after accreditation try this website www.lynda.com - it's all online and you study at your own pace. I've recommended the training to numerous people and they have all said it is of good quality. You can try some of the free courses before committing - there are also books and cds if you don't like the online version. On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 11:20 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I hope this is on topic. I'm trying to find a short course on AJAX in london and having troubles finding one that is of a reasonable price (IE- less than £300 for a half day). Could anyone recommend me one or possibly a good school to look into? Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
To throw another question in here, should the page title therefore be different to the main heading of the page? I thought the content in the page title should be as specific as possible for SEO, including the heirarchy? So, for example titleSite title - Section Title - Page title/title And h1Page title, section title or Logo?/h1 Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the title and main heading? Cheers 2008/6/3 Darren West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My 2 pence ... titlePage title - Site title/title div id=brand pimg alt=Site title ... //p /div div id=content h1Page Title/h1 ... /div div id=search h1Search/h1 form ... /div div id=nav h1Navigation/h1 ul ... /div 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote: How about: titleThe Times/title h1Homepage/h1 h2There's water on mars/h2 titleThe Times/title h1Financial stuff/h1 h2Redmond stock going down further/h2 etc... Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best? And if so, where? My understanding of the title tag is that it is the title of the page, not the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the above examples are not ideal IMHO. Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or off. That's my preferred technique. I just put the logo image in a div id=logo and keep the H1 for the page's own title. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] AJAX short courses london
Hi all, I hope this is on topic. I'm trying to find a short course on AJAX in london and having troubles finding one that is of a reasonable price (IE- less than £300 for a half day). Could anyone recommend me one or possibly a good school to look into? Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5
Ack! Anyone else had horrible problems installing FF3? My install crashes every time I open it, so I had to reinstall FF2.. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background on body not aligning with tiled background on wrapper DIV
Thanks for your reply Adam. I can't really put what's I have now due to copyright restrictions, or I would have. I was hoping someone had encountered this before and would know the answer. I'll have to try and set up a dummy page later today when I have more time. Thanks Paul 2008/5/15 Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: can we see an example? Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I've seen this problem before, but can't remember how I solved it. Basically, I have put a centred background that repeats vertically on the body of my page using CSS. The main wrapper div is also centred and has a background sits on top of the Body one, but is only a fixed height Basically, they need to match up where they meet, which is working fine in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc. The only place it's having an issue is IE6 7. I know what the problem is; the background is centred and the width of your browser can be an odd or even number, so it can't sit dead centre all the time. If I drag the browser in to resize it, the backgrounds keep matching up then falling out of place. I have solved this before without adding an extra div for the body background, but I just can't remember how I did it. Does anyone have an idea? Thanks Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Background on body not aligning with tiled background on wrapper DIV
Hi all, I've seen this problem before, but can't remember how I solved it. Basically, I have put a centred background that repeats vertically on the body of my page using CSS. The main wrapper div is also centred and has a background sits on top of the Body one, but is only a fixed height Basically, they need to match up where they meet, which is working fine in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc. The only place it's having an issue is IE6 7. I know what the problem is; the background is centred and the width of your browser can be an odd or even number, so it can't sit dead centre all the time. If I drag the browser in to resize it, the backgrounds keep matching up then falling out of place. I have solved this before without adding an extra div for the body background, but I just can't remember how I did it. Does anyone have an idea? Thanks Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background on body not aligning with tiled background on wrapper DIV
Hi all, I've managed to put a page together. If you look at the green area in Firefox and IE you will notice a small gap at the right of the green area in IE. If you try to resize the browser by dragging it, you will notice the gap keeps closing then appearing. It's to do with the odd and even number of pixels on the window size when you have a centred background. Anyway, here is the test URL, anyone got an idea of how to solve this without an extra DIV?! http://paulcollinslondon.com/test/ Cheers Paul 2008/5/15 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thanks for your reply Adam. I can't really put what's I have now due to copyright restrictions, or I would have. I was hoping someone had encountered this before and would know the answer. I'll have to try and set up a dummy page later today when I have more time. Thanks Paul 2008/5/15 Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: can we see an example? Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I've seen this problem before, but can't remember how I solved it. Basically, I have put a centred background that repeats vertically on the body of my page using CSS. The main wrapper div is also centred and has a background sits on top of the Body one, but is only a fixed height Basically, they need to match up where they meet, which is working fine in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc. The only place it's having an issue is IE6 7. I know what the problem is; the background is centred and the width of your browser can be an odd or even number, so it can't sit dead centre all the time. If I drag the browser in to resize it, the backgrounds keep matching up then falling out of place. I have solved this before without adding an extra div for the body background, but I just can't remember how I did it. Does anyone have an idea? Thanks Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
