RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

[Paul Noone]

Enough said. So nothing changes. Good.

It would be nice if this could be properly documented in Mr Allsopp's new
project. Bad examples are littered throughout the Web and do nothing to help
novices or the greater good.

-Original Message-
From: Felix Miata
Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2005 3:14 PM

100.01% on body serves multiple purposes.

Briggs is really no one deserving the status of example to repeatedly point
people to.

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RE: [WSG] Re: Setting Up Font Sizes

[Paul Noone]

Exactly so.

I have, however, noticed that I also need to apply a 100% 
font-size to - td, ul, ol, li, p, form - to stop inheritance problems though. 
This seems to be erratic and something I still haven't completely worked 
out.



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
O'NeillSent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 1:37 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Re: Setting Up Font 
Sizes
100.01% on body and then em's for the rest This prevents 
scaling issues with IE and older versions of Operahttp://www.freexenon.com/2005/10/css-fonts-and-font-sizing.html 
-- __"Bugs 
are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!"www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com 
(Consulting)__Take Back the Web with 
Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a 
Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards 
Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web 
Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild 
of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/ 

RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

[Paul Noone]

We have to start somewhere and building for the majority would seem to make
sense, otherwise why would we even bother how our sites looked in IE? :)

That being said, we are also all about making the Web accessible for
'everyone'. In the case of people who change their browser settings, they
have done so for a reason. We can only guess at what that reason might be.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 4:05 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

Peter J. Farrell wrote:

 I think it's safe to assume default installation settings for most 
 users -- everybody else are fringe cases.

That would leave us with... how many million 'fringe cases'?
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.

[Paul Noone]

My greatest discovery was seeing how images could be sized using % at
WebEssentials. :)

My greatest let-down was learning that it wasn't supported in IE. :(

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Terrence Wood
Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 8:22 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.

The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is:

How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users:

The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table,
not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to
actual screen reader user testing.

How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader
users to test with?

You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the
table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the
result resembles your table then you are on the right track =)

Example from complex financial table:
summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels
the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5,
where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is
Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6
through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual,
column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the
appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type.

(yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group
of rows)

HTH, please share your discovery in 2005.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

[Paul Noone]

Nice work Georg.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2005 3:31 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

Samuel Richardson wrote:
 What's the best, cross-browser supported way to setup font sizes in 
 CSS documents?

Watch out for this one...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_13.html
...and this one...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_03_04.html

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.

[Paul Noone]

There's no prize Graham but I'm gonna say, Aww...shucks anyway. :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kenny Graham
Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 9:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.

The best web standards thing I found this year was this mailing list. 
You guys are great!
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RE: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Paul Noone]

Thanks Samuel.

I'd actually considered the fixes quite minimal. Apart from a couple of IE
hacks, the only 'fix' in place is the mighty clearfix class for float
clearing.

If you have any suggestions on how the CSS can be minimised I'd be very
grateful if you'd share them. Almost everything I know about CSS can be
attributed to positive feedback from this list. 

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Samuel Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 4:24 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

If you have to have that many fixes in place for a page that is that simple
then your doing something wrong.


Paul Noone wrote:

Cheers all. I know there's a lot to wde through but most of the fixes,
widths and relative positions in place were put in to fix other problems in
the first instance.

As you say, getting rid of the clearfix solves that particular problem but
causes others. Definitely a clearing problem then.

What's bugging me is that it was all working just fine until recently.
Now...what the hell did I change? Will keep slogging away at it.

I've closed the input tags and all validates again. Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma



Paul Noone wrote:
  

Problem:
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=Newsid=cntnt0
1cntn
t01action=detailcntnt01articleid=8cntnt01returnid=11

The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no 
idea why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd


hope so!).

There's a lot of css to wade through, but as far as I can tell, your
clearfix class is the cause of the problem.  Removing that class (in
Firefox
dev toolbar, to test my theory) stops it dropping down, although it causes
problems elsewhere.

With so many divs, classes and id's that's about the only thing I can
figure
out.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

[Paul Noone]

So setting the font size for the html element to 100.01% and then adjusting
it in the body (or elsewhere) is no longer recommended?

I tried to find fault with Owen Briggs' Text Sizing
http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/index.html
article which uses a simple declaration of font-size: 76% in the body. But
no amount of nested lists in nested tables could reduce the usual array of
inherited sizing that I recall from not so long ago.

So now I can cut yet more dead wood from my CSS. Samuel will be so proud. :)

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Terrence Wood
Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2005 10:48 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

On 21 Dec 2005, at 11:57 AM, Samuel Richardson wrote:
 What's the best, cross-browser supported way to setup font sizes in 
 CSS documents?

http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

[Paul Noone]

Where I got it from was the supplied stylesheet. The comments within also
explain why 76% was chosen as a figure.

The 100.01% size for html or body elements was/is a much practiced method
which was expounded on this very list not so long ago.

Is it just me or is there some underlying agression on this list of late? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ric Raftis
Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2005 1:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

Where did you get that from in that article?  Setting the font size to 100%
and then setting individual elements to ems is how I do all my pages.  As
far as I know it is the recommended method so users have control of their
own viewport.

Regards,

Ric

Paul Noone wrote:

So setting the font size for the html element to 100.01% and then 
adjusting it in the body (or elsewhere) is no longer recommended

  

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RE: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help

[Paul Noone]

I think your negative margins are getting the better of you. Because both
elements directly follow each other there shouldn't be any need to do
anything othet than set H# bottom and UL/LI top margins and padding to 0.

The change below worked for me.


.mainleft ul {
margin-top: 0px;


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:32 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help


hello all,

 just tryin to narrow the distance between my h3 element and some unordered
lists.
easy enough in ff but negative margins dont seem to budge the ul in ie.

example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final5.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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RE: [WSG] to many links, was narrowing the gap

[Paul Noone]

The client will *always* come back with items they've not considered until
later and they will *always* see them as having enough importance to warrant
being part of the main menu structure.

Navigation is a beach and its elements can become as numerous as the grains
of sand that accumulate in the delicate areas of your SpeedosTM.

You need to insist upon a brief list of primary menu items for the sake of
appearance and ease of navigation. If properly defined these should be
intuitive enough not to warrant displaying all the child categories for that
section in the first instance.

From what I can see there are already more than enough navigation links on
the site. If the parent  toddler link has other items under it then I
would simply use a bullet menu on its own page for sub-navigation.

Better yet, I would be reducing the homepage down to just the H3s and using
them as section pages which contain secondary navigation.

If they're inflexible on this point then you can style your H3s to have the
submenus hidden initially and then display on click. This doesn't require
javascript or flyouts. Most, if not all, of it can be done with pure CSS and
a smidgen of server-side scripting.

Take a look at http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au for an example of the
dynamic menus I'm referring to. In this case I've actually got a third level
nested as well but you don't need to see any of them until you click
through.


--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 9:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] to many links, was narrowing the gap


The change below worked for me.


.mainleft ul {
margin-top: 0px;



thanks paul that simplifies it,

also
i always get stuck with these crazy navition schemes.
The client signed of on this layout with different content then came back
with loads more subcategory links then he had originally. Its almost
overwhelming, i think that another level of navigation might be called for,
that is- categories to sub categories with a location filter as well. I dont
want to use drop downs.

Anyone have anythoughts on this?



example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final6.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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RE: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[Paul Noone]

I see a pattern forming. ;)

We do love our definitions on this list. FWIW I think a framework is what
we're after, which may just include links to real world solutions that are
standards based.

An awesome under-taking. I'd love to see it happen.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kat
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 10:19 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz


 In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over 
 again . and . the core of the solution to that problem. When we build 
 sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very 
 little work has been done trying to capture and document them.
 That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do.

  I've started with site level patterns.

 I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the 
 patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and 
 contribute your thoughts and experience


Gday,

Keep in mind I am just a student, but isn't something that describes it at
site level more a framework rather than a pattern?

 From Wikipedia A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be
transformed directly into code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_%28computer_programming%29; it is a
description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many
different situations. .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29

Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex
issues, such as dynamic binding?

But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's quite
specific for a particular area.

Again from Wikipedia, a Framework can be considered as the processes and
technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon which
various objects are integrated for a given solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework

So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like which
allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more framelike?

Point out to me where I have gone wrong.

Kat




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RE: [WSG] Whither IE for the Mac

[Paul Noone]

You'll probably want to archive a copy or two now for testing purposes 

Why on earth would I want to do that? :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 10:51 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Whither IE for the Mac


Microsoft is officially halting distribution of Internet Explorer for the
Mac at the end of next month. You'll probably want to archive a copy or two
now for testing purposes...

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[WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Paul Noone]

Problem:
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=Newsid=cntnt01cntn
t01action=detailcntnt01articleid=8cntnt01returnid=11

The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no idea
why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd hope so!).

This looks like a float/clearnace problem to me but I can't seem to nail it.

I've spent too much time on this problem already by hacking away in FF's
live CSS window but to no avail. Which leadds me to think the problem may be
in the structure.

If anyone would like to cast a fresh set of eyes over it I'd appreciate it.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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RE: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Paul Noone]

Cheers all. I know there's a lot to wde through but most of the fixes,
widths and relative positions in place were put in to fix other problems in
the first instance.

As you say, getting rid of the clearfix solves that particular problem but
causes others. Definitely a clearing problem then.

What's bugging me is that it was all working just fine until recently.
Now...what the hell did I change? Will keep slogging away at it.

I've closed the input tags and all validates again. Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma



Paul Noone wrote:
 Problem:
 http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=Newsid=cntnt0
 1cntn
 t01action=detailcntnt01articleid=8cntnt01returnid=11
 
 The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no 
 idea why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd
hope so!).

There's a lot of css to wade through, but as far as I can tell, your
clearfix class is the cause of the problem.  Removing that class (in Firefox
dev toolbar, to test my theory) stops it dropping down, although it causes
problems elsewhere.

With so many divs, classes and id's that's about the only thing I can figure
out.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Paul Noone]

Got it. It was the clearfix class applied to the content div directly above
which contained no floated items.

I'm sure something else has broken now but that's for another day.

Thanks again.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Noone
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 4:11 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

Cheers all. I know there's a lot to wde through but most of the fixes,
widths and relative positions in place were put in to fix other problems in
the first instance.

As you say, getting rid of the clearfix solves that particular problem but
causes others. Definitely a clearing problem then.

What's bugging me is that it was all working just fine until recently.
Now...what the hell did I change? Will keep slogging away at it.

I've closed the input tags and all validates again. Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma



Paul Noone wrote:
 Problem:
 http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=Newsid=cntnt0
 1cntn
 t01action=detailcntnt01articleid=8cntnt01returnid=11
 
 The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no 
 idea why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd
hope so!).

There's a lot of css to wade through, but as far as I can tell, your
clearfix class is the cause of the problem.  Removing that class (in Firefox
dev toolbar, to test my theory) stops it dropping down, although it causes
problems elsewhere.

With so many divs, classes and id's that's about the only thing I can figure
out.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] Frames ?

[Paul Noone]

As one last comment I'd add that pop-ups and new window 
targets are very different beasts. An accessible popup is almost but not quite 
impossible, although always less desirable than a simple 
target="_blank".

--Paul A NooneWebmaster, ASHM[EMAIL PROTECTED] 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin 
RossSent: Monday, 19 December 2005 12:27 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Frames 
?
Good evening gentleman. I want to thank all of you for your 
interesting replies to my question. I will gather all of the info and try 
to come up with an educated reply ! At any rate, there is a lot to think 
about. My client may not be "dead set" on using frames. I will use 
the info garnered in this thread to TRY to convince him otherwise. 
However, I still have a few questions...Isn't using a dynamic 
frameset, still using frames?What is the advantage, other than being able to 
place the frame where I want?I am thinking I will suggest that we just 
open the manufacturer's site in a new window and have that pop-up in a specific 
location that will allow the logo on the originating page to show on the top 
left of the screen. I know the user may not have their browser open to 
full screen and this involves pop-ups, which the user may turn off, but I feel 
more comfortable with that as opposed to frames. Comments? For 
what it is worth, I agree with the comments here.My design philosophy is 
really one in which I want to do the best job for my clients. To do this I 
feel I must adhere to Web Standards and style sheets. If I cannot dissuade 
the client from using frames, I really don't feel good about proceeding with 
this project (it's not a very lucrative one). Appreciate your help very 
much.Regards,KR
On 12/17/05, Thierry 
Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 
Terrence 
  Wood wrote: On 17 Dec 2005, at 6:46 PM, Thierry Koblentz 
  wrote:  Terrence Wood wrote: Have I missed 
  something or is this just, erm, frames using _javascript_ 
  instead of a static page? I'm not sure I understand 
  your question.  Isn't what the OP is looking for? Being able to 
  link to *and* frame other web 
  sites? The OP asked if there is a web standards 
  and CSS way to maintain his clients branding for remote sites, and 
  while recognising that frames will achieve this wondered if there is 
  an alternative. The thread has moved on to suggest alternatives to 
  frames in their entirety given the usability issues of frames, and the 
  ethical issues  around framing content which owned by a third party. 
  The alternatives revolve around some variation of linking to the 
  site. You solution is (from my cursory look) a script driven 
  frames implementation, as opposed to a static file based one, and I 
   questioned it because it didn't seem to add anything at this point 
  andusually your contributions are both excellent and 
  timely.IMHO, the fact that this thread has moved on to suggest 
  alternatives may teach the OP something, but does not necessary answer his 
  question. If hisclient is dead on the idea, the OP will have no choice 
  other thanimlplementing a frames solution.op..., [my 
  client] wants the new web page to open up only in the contents area and 
  leave his header and menu intact.Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but 
  this sounds like frames to me.Isthere a way to do this using 
  Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ?/opI read the 
  above, then skimmed the thread and didn't see one post mentionning the use 
  of a dynamic frameset to avoid building a site withframes. I thought my 
  suggestion was a "variation of linking to the site", an"alternative" that 
  has not been discussed. I'm sorry if this contribution was neither 
  excellent nor timely ;)Best regards,Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com** 
  The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See 
  http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm 
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting 
  help**

RE: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[Paul Noone]

Love the idea. I don't think it should be a replacement for many things
which are best learnt through hard expereince, but rather a 7 steps to
success guide for building a standards-based website.

Sure, you could include best practice code samples, particularly for
off-page techniques etc. But I don't think providing baby steps for every
eventuality is the answer. That, in itself, has the potential for creating
lazy beginners.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Richard Czeiger
Sent: Monday, 19 December 2005 2:56 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this which would
form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer-authorised' code
snippets and put them in our pages. Such as finally having a collection of
code so we don't have to ask: What's the most semantic and valid way of
marking up addresses? and such.

This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners /
new-to-standards folk.

Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery section and
choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by CSS Samurais and such
out there.

Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the Navigation
section.

etc...

What do you think?
R

- Original Message -
From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM
Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz


Hi all,

Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and
WebSemantics

http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html

In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over
again . and . the core of the solution to that problem. When we
build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just
very little work has been done trying to capture and document them.
That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do.

The first big step here is the PatternQuiz

http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4

the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development.
I've started with site level patterns.

I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the
patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and
contribute your thoughts and experience

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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RE: [WSG] Browser Resolutions

[Paul Noone]

Hi Stephen,

Another point worth mentioning, which was raised by my all-seeing manager,
is that even though people's default screen resolution generally falls in
the 1024x768 mark, they often browse in a smaller window.

This kind of throws a spanner in the works for those wanting to boost the
minimum requirements for websites. 


--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Stephen Stagg
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 12:11 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Browser Resolutions

Slightly off-list but important all the same.

I traditionally design sites to look good at 800x600 and best at 1024x768.
Now, tho, it seems as if users visiting with resolutions of 800x600 are
around the 1% margin.  Could those of you with access to good stats packages
for your sites please tell what the %es of  users with different resolutions
is.  I KNOW that a good site should display well at any resolution BUT when
it comes to things like down-sampling images and the like, this sort of info
can be very useful. 

Thanks

Stephen
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RE: [WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Hi Kevin,

Antiquated or inadequate definitions aside, I am actually quite correct. I'm
referring to the common problem of how to display the last line of text in a
paragraph. This decision can also drastically increase the whit rivers
problem already discussed.

This last line can, in fact, be aligned either left, right or centre
depending on your needs, language, fancy or daft inclination.

Indeed this form of justified paragraph is so popular that any professional
desktop application worth it's salt has all these styles built-in. InDesign
is just one example.

I hope that calrifies it for everyone. This has now gone way OT. Direct
replies only please. The list is surely bored to death with this by now.


--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kevin Futter
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 8:51 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

On 15/12/05 4:27 PM, Paul Noone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Kevin,
 
 That's just another limitation of the parameter. Justified text 
 actually comes in several flavours - left, right and both.
 


Actually, that's quite wrong. There is no such thing as left- or
right-justified text, only left- or right-aligned text. Justified text is
exactly as I described in my last post: text that spans a full block element
(print or screen) and is aligned to both left and right margins. I am of
course talking about the technical publishing definition of the term, not
the CSS version.

--
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/



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RE: [WSG] JK Rowlings and Accessibility

[Paul Noone]

The fact that the text-only version fails basic checkpoints is very
disappointing however. I don't know about the rest of you but I certaily let
them know my feelings via email. 

Strength in numbers and all that.

There's been a lot of MM propaganda around of late with regards to
high-profile sites. Reading between the lines, which isn't that hard in this
case, simply tells me that MM are desperate to show that Flash CAN be
accessible...if you have enough money, time and desire to bother.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Felicity Farr
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 10:33 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] JK Rowlings and Accessibility

I love the attitude of the big players...provide a text alternative and it's
instantly accessible.

It's a great message.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 10:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] JK Rowlings and Accessibility

AFAIK the flash portion of this site was developed with the help of MM to
make it accessible for screen readers.

They *do* offer a text-only version so yes, they can claim to be accessible.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


Felicity Farr said:
 Read the article:

http://www.lightmaker.com/company/index.cfm?section=latest_newspress_id
 =26

 Does anyone else have a problem with these guys saying that 
 http://www.jkrowling.com/ is accessible?

 It fails Priority 1
 It fails html validation

 And unless I have Javascript enabled I can't even access the 
 'accessibility enabled version' I can only access a text version 
 (disgusting!).

 http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/

 http://www.jkrowling.com/accessible/en/





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[WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on this
one.

I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've applied
the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But can justify
be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this just work through
browser quirks?

text-align: center justify;

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Sorry. A paragraph.

Don't ask me why I'm trying this eitherlet's just call it an exercise.
;)


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:30 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org '
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

what are you applying it to? a heading or a paragraph of text?

-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:18
Subject: [WSG] Justify this

Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on this
one.

I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've applied
the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But can justify
be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this just work through
browser quirks?

text-align: center justify;

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Hi Lachlan,

Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.

Thanks anyway.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

Paul Noone wrote:
 Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on 
 this one.

No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're looking
for.

 I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've 
 applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But 
 can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this 
 just work through browser quirks?
 
 text-align: center justify;

If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug.  That property should be
ignored by a conforming browser.  Centred and justified text are mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box, but
have the text justified within.  In which case, this should do the trick:

p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }

Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Everyone's a comedian today. :P

T'was purely an aesthetic venture for a client and one which I'll now gladly
leave behind. They're getting pre tags and they're just going to have to
live with it. :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:59 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org '
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of usability/readability. 

Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)

 

-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Hi Lachlan,

Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.

Thanks anyway.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

Paul Noone wrote:
 Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on 
 this one.

No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're looking
for.

 I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've 
 applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But

 can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this 
 just work through browser quirks?
 
 text-align: center justify;

If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug.  That property should be
ignored by a conforming browser.  Centred and justified text are mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box, but
have the text justified within.  In which case, this should do the
trick:

p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }

Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Well, I've been interested in the whole justified text issue for a while and
think Joshua raises an interesting point. I don't generally use it to style
paragraphs because I personally don't like its appearance but I wasn't aware
there were accessibility concerns.

In this instance I was merely trying to style a footer in a particular
fashion that matched the client's letterhead. Silly, I know.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 3:08 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org '
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

no, I'm a comedian every day, it's just that I don't post every day :P

but seriously, are you adding paragraphs of justified text to the page...?
(irrespective of which element you're using to mark up).



-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 15:00
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Everyone's a comedian today. :P

T'was purely an aesthetic venture for a client and one which I'll now gladly
leave behind. They're getting pre tags and they're just going to have to
live with it. :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:59 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org '
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of usability/readability. 

Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)

 

-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Hi Lachlan,

Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.

Thanks anyway.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

Paul Noone wrote:
 Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on 
 this one.

No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're looking
for.

 I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've 
 applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But

 can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this 
 just work through browser quirks?
 
 text-align: center justify;

If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug.  That property should be
ignored by a conforming browser.  Centred and justified text are mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box, but
have the text justified within.  In which case, this should do the
trick:

p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }

Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Hi Kevin,

That's just another limitation of the parameter. Justified text actually
comes in several flavours - left, right and both. I believe there are also
settings to use it vertically to fill a box but I'm not even going to begin
to paddle down that white river. ;) 


--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kevin Futter
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 3:48 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

On 15/12/05 2:49 PM, Paul Noone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Lachlan,
 
 Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified 
 text for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.
 
 Thanks anyway.

Justified text runs full-width and aligns to both left and right margins,
and is hence incompatible with the concept of being centred. This is also
why it's less legible - the rivers of white space alluded to already are
caused by varying and inconsistent word spacing, which makes the eye jump
from word to word instead of tracking smoothly. I'd also have to dispute
that it looks better, but that's just subjective on my part.

--
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/



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RE: [WSG] Justify this

[Paul Noone]

Hi Lachlan,

My original question was intended to get a simple anser on the limitations
and correct use of justify with text-align, not to open a whole can of worms
on how else I might achive the result. I'll leave that discussion for
anyone else who cares to pursue it.

Thanks for all your suggestions and comments but I'm well and truly done
with this line of inquiry for now.


--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 4:17 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

Paul Noone wrote:
 Lachlan Hunt wrote:
 Paul Noone wrote:
 I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've 
 applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick.
 
 text-align:center justify;
 
 p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }
 
 Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified 
 text for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.

If that isn't a solution to your problem, then you need to more clearly
explain what you are trying to do.  Conceptually, it makes no sense to both
center and justify text, since they are mutually exclusive values.

I tried your suggested code, but couldn't find any browser that produces the
result you described in either quirks or standards mode, all browsers I
tried correctly ignore the values and default to left alignment.

Please provide a better description, a sample document or some form of
illustration (eg. ascii art or a link to an image) that demonstrates the
effect you are trying to achieve.  If, as you say, the sample code you
provided does produce the effect you want, please provide a test case and
indicate which broken browser gives the intended result so we may see for
ourselves.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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RE: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms

[Paul Noone]

Hi Kat, you've actually got your definitions in the wrong order.

An acronym is a word formed from the initial letters of a name, such as WAG.
It can be pronounced as 'wag' OR 'W.A.G', depending on your fancy.

An abbreviation is just that, the abreviation of a common word for the
purpose of brevity where the meaning is still implicit. Though I would
dispute implicitness with many examples, particularly US states. ;)

Either way, although an acronym is a class of abbreviation, an abbreviation
is never a class of acronym.

HTH


--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kat
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 10:57 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms

Gday,

I was writing in my blog and was using acronyms and abbreviations and I
realised I didn't know something about the right way of doing things, and
I'm fairly confident someone here would.

This may be off topic because it's a question of accessible and/or
semantics. It may be also a little bit persnickety.

I understand the difference between acronym and abbreviation, in that an
acronym is pronounced as a word, is treated as a word, while an abbreviation
is pronounced as a succession of letters.

While I was writing, I definately used an abbreviation, created from the
first letter of the phrase, eg, HTML. In this case it was one of my uni
subjects, ISMR (Information Systems Maintenance and Re-engineering.)

But in the next paragraph, I used the same convention of taking the first
letter of each word in the phrase to create AIM (Accessible Interactive
Multimedia).

The Question:

Since it can be an acronym, should I mark it up as an acronym, or should I
stick to the convention I used earlier in the page to refer to other
subjects and use abbreviation? It can be pronounced as the word 'aim' or as
each individual letters.

What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view?
What makes more sense from the semantic point of view?

Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect whatsoever on
the end result? Am I over analysing this to death?

Kat
I have this feeling there's an important point I'm missing somewhere.




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RE: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms

[Paul Noone]

At the end of the day what are we trying to achieve by using these tags?

Does semantically correct code take precedence over usability?

IMO, provided you are somehow offering a visible definition of the acronym
or abbreviation - be it by use of a specific tag, or the ill-fated title
attribute - I think you have achieved your objective.

Frankly, at the moment it still seems that ALT and TITLE perform better
cross-browser and also have the added benefit of not being mis-applied or
misunderstood.

Shoot me if you disagree but please, as is tradition, direct any personal
abuse to me directly. :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 11:19 AM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms

 What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view?
 What makes more sense from the semantic point of view?
 
 Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect 
 whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death?
 

I wrote a long post on this subject a while ago which talks about
Abbreviations, Acronyms, Initialisms and Contractions:
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg15231.html

A hotly debated topic...

Also discussed at length here:
http://juicystudio.com/article/abbreviations-acronyms.php

Problems?
1. Internet Explorers does not support abbr 2. While some assistive
devices have the ability to present abbreviations and/or acronyms, this
feature often needs to be turned on - in other words it is not a default
setting. Some users of assistive devices find this additional information
too confusing and would be unlikely to turn on this feature at all.

Russ

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RE: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms

[Paul Noone]

Makes good sense to me. Otherwise why stop at acronym? Next 
thing you'd have tags for slang, idiom, abstract, outline, summary...the list 
goes on. What we're trying to do is display a descriptive 
meaning.

All this should be achived by way ofa 
singleattribute to a tag. I still don't see why althasn't 
beenimplemeted across the board for this purpose.



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
O'NeillSent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 12:40 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and 
Acronyms
As far as I am aware acronym is deprecated in XHTML 2.0 in favor of 
abbr? Here is an article on it from Lars Holst which dates back to 2003, but I 
think that it is still very relevant.http://larsholst.info/blog/index.php?p=14more=1#more14-- __"Bugs are, by 
definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!"www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com 
(Consulting)__Take Back the Web with 
Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a 
Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards 
Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web 
Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild 
of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/ 

RE: [WSG] CSS and the University Syllabus

[Paul Noone]

Looks good, Paula. 

Again, I think a table is fine for this type of data.

I don't understand your problem with the caption. It serves the same purpose
as your Week by Week h3 but IMO does it better.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paula Petrik
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 4:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] CSS and the University Syllabus

The discussion on CSS Driven? prompted me to query the group on something
that has been bothering me for some time; namely, of all the templates
available on the web, there are very few that address the academic
syllabus--despite the fact that there are thousands
(millions?) of syllabi on the web. At first glance, putting a syllabus on
the web looks to be a no-brainer, but it strikes me that a syllabus is a
special beast and poses some structural and presentational problems.

For example, I have been including a table on the schedule page of the
course sites  to delineate what's to be done when because it seems to be
tabular data--week in one column and work (of various
kinds) in another. (Yes, I have lived in fear of the Table Police.) I have
tried to do the schedule using divs, but it seems hopelessly complicated and
not worth the effort. Recently, I've begun to think that the readings are,
in fact, a list and should be written accordingly. Using caption seems to
pose difficulties. Is it necessary? Should Readings and Internet Visits?
be tagged as h3 and styled accordingly? Why not just leave them with their
p tags?  
How to connect the main site with things that apply to all classes to each
course?

Here are some examples from the past term:

http://archiva.net/hist120ay05/hist120ay05_schedule.htm
http://www.archiva.net/hist389ay05/hist389ay05_schedule.htm
http://www.archiva.net/hist616ay05/hist616ay05_schedule.htm

Please note that there are important elements missing, among them skip
nav. I have had to do these very quickly but am doing an entire redesign to
address these lacunae; these examples will shortly go into the archives
along with the really tacky ones. Any advice will be gratefully received.
Paula

Paula Petrik
Professor
Department of History  Art History
Associate Director
Center for History  New Media
George Mason University
http://www.archiva.net





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RE: [WSG] italic and validator

[Paul Noone]

Thanks for that, Russ. I hadn't come across that neat chart before. Handy
reference.

But now I find myself confused by a couple of the elements listed as
optional (O); namely the HEAD and BODY tags. Optional?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Monday, 12 December 2005 4:18 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] italic and validator

 okay, hi everyone:  a short question, i intend it to be, at least.
 is i (italic) deprecated in xhtml?  and even better, could someone 
 point me to a w3c page that talks about what is deprecated in xhtml?
 and, second part of that, why does the validator validate it if it is 
 deprecated.


A good quote by Ian Hickson:
b and i are technically not deprecated, but the style of markup that
would use them, namely presentation-orientated markup, is discouraged in
favour of more semantic markup, e.g. using strong, cite, dfn, or em
as appropriate. Some would argue that there are times when b and i are
appropriate elements. This is a matter for debate on another list.
http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/27958

Within font style elements (TT, I, B, BIG, SMALL, STRIKE, S, and U), the
following are deprecated:
STRIKE and S: Deprecated. Render strike-through style text.
U: Deprecated. Renders underlined text.
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/graphics.html

A chart showing all deprecated elements (see column with D):
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/elements.html

The i element is still available in the XHTML 1.1 presentation module:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_presentati
onmodule

Definition of deprecated (for those who haven't come across it before):
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/conform.html#deprecated

HTH
Russ

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RE: [WSG] italic and validator

[Paul Noone]

So how does one go about separating hidden head content and body content?

I mean, what happens to meta tags, page title, scripting functions etc.?

This seems to directly go against the purpose of our push, which I thought
was to keep these elements distinct and apart.

No doubt I've missed something again and this simply requires further
reading on my part. 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, 12 December 2005 4:52 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] italic and validator

On 12/12/05, Paul Noone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Thanks for that, Russ. I hadn't come across that neat chart before. 
 Handy reference.

 But now I find myself confused by a couple of the elements listed as 
 optional (O); namely the HEAD and BODY tags. Optional?

Yep. Few people know this. try it out.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] matter of Semantics

[Paul Noone]

That just sounds like ignorance to me but perhaps they'd be more comfortable
with Table of Contents, given that most site maps are nothing more than this
anyway? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gerardo Chairez [Addictive Media]
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 12:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] matter of Semantics


I've been thinking what should be the best term for Sitemap coz I've had
some clients asking me if they are gonna have in that section a localization
map.

Probably the best term would be Index, what do you guys think?

Gerardo Chairez



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RE: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?

[Paul Noone]

Not so. It depends on Apache and how it's configured.

You can check how PHP is set up by creating a new PHP page and just inlcude
the following:

?php phpinfo() ?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Stephen Stagg
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?

In fact, I chickened out and used the IMG tag solution.  however

  My web host uses PHP as a CGI module, I think, therefore, that it only
handles files with .php extension?

Stephen

Linda Harms wrote:
 Stephen,

 Several options actually are available on the PHP side.

   -- you CAN script the CSS to select the appropriate background image.
   -- multiple css files, use php to call the appropriate one.


 I have an example available if you're interested.

 Linda
 (breaking away from normal lurk mode)
 - Original Message -
 From: Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WSG wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:12 PM
 Subject: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?


   
 One site that I'm currently coding 
 (http://www.minimology.co.uk/everest)
 uses some simple PHP to manage a few dynamic elements on the pages.

 One of these elements (will be | is) 2 Sponsors logos at the top of 
 each page which will go into the template.  I want the links to be 
 randomly selected from a list and to use an FIR derivation to show 
 the relevant company logos in an accessible manner.  I also, however, 
 want the user to be able to edit an xml file describing the 
 attributes of the various sponsors and to add new ones.  Normally I 
 would define the FIR images in a linked x.css file but this is not 
 scriptable.  How does the list suggest the tags should be styled in this
case?
  * Inline stylesheets?
  * Linked .php with content-type of text/css?
  * style= attribute?

 Any thoughts??

 Thanks

 Stephen
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RE: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

[Paul Noone]

I find it hard to believe but it looks like it's using an image file to draw
the button?!?! 

I'v enever noticed this before. Perhaps I've never had buttons that long.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Tim Burgan
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 11:46 AM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Subject: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

Does anyone have a clue as to why this happens:


IE6.0 only on XP makes form buttons display really pixelated what the
button's width gets to a certain size.

It doesn't seem to occur is any Mac browsers, and no other Win browsers or
versions

More specifically, when either the label is = 19 characters, or the width
is = 192 pixels.

Form buttons without width defined:
http://www.timburgan.com/submit-button.htm

Form buttons with width defined:
http://www.timburgan.com/submit-button-width.htm

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to get around this?


Tim
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RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Paul Noone]

So, given that the W3C buttons enforce compliancy by returning errors if the
page isn't valid, what's wrong with them again?

I actually sport mine with some pride and have had several visitors comment
on the fact. Sure, some of their comments have been along the lines of what
are they for? and what do they do? but this just provides me the
opportunity to explain the virtues of accessibility to them first hand.

Win/win, I reckon.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 12:37 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

Peter Williams wrote:

 It has to be somehow enforced for it to have value.

And as that's not going to happen, the star rating will be meaningless. 
To get back to the energy efficiency analogy, it's a situation where every
fridge manufacturer would be completely free to put an official looking
most energy efficient fridge EVER!!! actually generates energy and reduces
the greenhouse effect on their products, and nobody would be able to do
anything about it...leaving the customers more confused than anything else.

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re-
+ dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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RE: [WSG] 2-col question

[Paul Noone]

Instead of trying to float the columns next to each other, you could avoid
much pain to the brain by wrapping the fixed image column inside the content
column.

--
|  |||
|  |||
|   main   | image  ||
|   content|||
|  |||
|  |||
--

Or you could always just apply a 190px right-margin to your content float.
;)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of ivanovitch
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 9:32 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] 2-col question

Folks - you've helped out before, and I'm asking again. Pardon if this
sounds all too simple, but I've yet to find a solution either in this list's
archives, or on the web.

I'm trying to create a fluid layout with two columns, but whilst the left
column is variable width, the right column (sidebar) is to be a fixed width
(190px). This is entirely because the right column contains an image in
every instance. But I want the left column to take up the remainder of the
space (viewport width - 190px).

Everything that I've seen or reviewed works fine if I wish to break the
columns by percentage, or pixel widths on both. And min-width doesn't seem
to work for IE.

Having divved up some non-table examples using the usual suspects, my
efforts result in my finding that when making the viewport window very small
(or when enlarging the text to huge sizes), the left column slides under the
righthand column.

Do I need to use double-divs to set a width for the troublesome right
column? The most frustrating part of this is using tables and cells, this is
a no-brainer.

I'd show you an example of where I'm at, but my test site is down at the
moment.
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RE: [WSG] 2-col question

[Paul Noone]

If you have any problems the clear div being applied after the column divs
(as I did) you can try applying the following to the contentwrap div, and
any other container that holds floats.

/* *** Float containers fix:
http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/containedfloat.php *** */ 
.clearfix:after {
content: .; 
display: block; 
height: 0; 
clear: both; 
visibility: hidden;
}
.clearfix{display: inline-table;}

/* Hides from IE-mac \*/
* html .clearfix{height: 1%;}
.clearfix{display: block;} 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Samuel Richardson
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 10:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] 2-col question

I forgot to add, if you want to apply a background image or footer then wrap
then

body
  div id=contentwrap
div id=sidebar/div
div id=content/div
div style=clear : both;nbsp;/div
  /div
/body

Add background images to the #contentwrap for a faux column effect, also if
you add a footer div after #contentwrap it will automatically appear after
whichever column is the longest out of #sidebar or #content. Their are also
better ways of putting content inside the clear div (firefox requires
something to be in it to work) in the nbsp; (see the CSS
content-after)

Samuel


Samuel Richardson wrote:

 body
  div id=sidebar/div
  div id=content/div
 /body

 #sidebar
 {
  float : right;
  width : 190px;
 }

 #content
 {
  margin-right : 190px;
 }

 ivanovitch wrote:

 Folks - you've helped out before, and I'm asking again. Pardon if 
 this sounds all too simple, but I've yet to find a solution either in 
 this list's archives, or on the web.

 I'm trying to create a fluid layout with two columns, but whilst the 
 left column is variable width, the right column (sidebar) is to be a 
 fixed width (190px). This is entirely because the right column 
 contains an image in every instance. But I want the left column to 
 take up the remainder of the space (viewport width - 190px).

 Everything that I've seen or reviewed works fine if I wish to break 
 the columns by percentage, or pixel widths on both. And min-width 
 doesn't seem to work for IE.

 Having divved up some non-table examples using the usual suspects, my 
 efforts result in my finding that when making the viewport window 
 very small (or when enlarging the text to huge sizes), the left 
 column slides under the righthand column.

 Do I need to use double-divs to set a width for the troublesome right 
 column? The most frustrating part of this is using tables and cells, 
 this is a no-brainer.

 I'd show you an example of where I'm at, but my test site is down at 
 the moment.
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RE: [WSG] Mambo Accessibility

[Paul Noone]

Except that they still insist on membership before you can view such pages. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ted Drake
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2005 4:15 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Mambo  Accessibility

www.GAWDS.org (Guild of Accessible Web Developers) has a fully accessible
CMS platform.  I would recommend moving away from Mambo if you are
interested in standards.
Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Steve Ferguson
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:35 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Mambo  Accessibility

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 20:15:13 +0800
  Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Guys,
 
...

 Is there a way to make Mambo compatible (A large reason for the work  
is to allow blind users to get value from the site) with accessiblily  
and hopefully web standards?
 
 Is there another CMS that you would mention which may suit my needs?


I've never used it myself, but you might want to take a look at Joomla. It's
compatible with Mambo at this point
http://www.joomla.org/index.php?Itemid=44option=com_faqcatid=7
and the developers are at least are trying to be compliant and accessible
http://help.joomla.org/content/view/805/125/

Cheers,
Steve Ferguson - http://illumit.com/

 Regards,
 
 Lloyd
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RE: [WSG] Mambo Accessibility

[Paul Noone]

You can also directly compare hundreds of CMSs and choose them based on
selection criteria from this helpful site: http://cmsmatrix.org

However, if you're after a simplt, straight-forward no-nonsense, accessible
and XHTML compliant CMS I'm going to recommend CMS Made Simple again. It's
in it's infancy but it's got the most active developer community I've ever
seend and it's growing out of site(sic).

And, no, I have no affiliations beyond those of an emotive nature. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2005 8:47 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Mambo  Accessibility

If you want to find out which CMS is good for your needs, you might want to
check out:

http://www.opensourcecms.com/

They have live installs of maybe hundreds of CMS, all rated, user comments,
organized in categories. The installs are wiped every 2 hours, so you can go
in with the demo password and do whatever you want, try different features,
see the output, etc. You might find a CMS no one would think of suggesting
that might actually be perfect for you, and you don't have to worry about
installing something on your own server and having to uninstall it later.

To save you some time, most comments about Mambo on the site go along the
lines of Mambo was good for a while, but there are better solutions now
that will save you lots of time. It might be faster to take the Mambo
database and port it into another CMS than try to make all the Mambo markup
standards-compliant.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] Mambo Accessibility

[Paul Noone]

Michael Donnermeyer deftly quothed:

 ...if you take the time to look.

Ahem. Yes. Thank you, Michael. :*

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RE: [WSG] Noise (was) Mambo Accessibility

[Paul Noone]

Seconded. You're likely to get a more targetted response to your queries as
well.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2005 9:23 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Noise (was) Mambo  Accessibility

Quoting Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Is it my imagination, or has this list acquired an unreasonable amount 
 of noise lately? Aren't there separate lists for  CMS and/or software 
 issues? Call me a grouch, but all I've seen in the last little while 
 has been FF1.5 and Mambo...
 
 C'mon, guys - can we get back OT, please?
 
 N

I'm quite happy for the M  Accessibility thread to be shifted to the WSG
CMS list.. (along with anything else mentioning any form of CMS)

Anyone else ?

Lawrence Meckan
Absalom Media
http://www.absalom.biz
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RE: [WSG] BOM and charset declaration in CSS

[Paul Noone]

Cheers, Gene. After reading the exhaustive W3C tutorial on encoding I wound
up not delcaring it in the CSS after all.

I'm also using Source Edit (a free Windows hex/text editor) to delete the
invisible single character entity that Notebook and other editors like to
insert at the start of file.

-Original Message-
From: Gene Falck


Paul wrote:

And how do you get around the UTF-8 signature or byte order mark (BOM) 
that some editors add to the document?

I see you already have some replies on this BOM bit.

For looking over your file format (and also simply deleting the BOM) you
might also try a utility like XVI32.exe which displays your file character
by character along side the hex values. Anything that your editor puts
before the DOCTYPE will put you into quirks mode so the BOM (and anything
else the editor inserted at the beginning of the file) can and probably
should be deleted.

I like XVI32 a lot because I don't have a lot of files to run in batch and I
was curious what was happening.


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RE: [WSG] BOM and charset declaration in CSS

[Paul Noone]

Cheers, Gene. After reading the exhaustive W3C tutorial on encoding I wound
up not delcaring it in the CSS after all.

I'm also using Source Edit (a free Windows hex/text editor) to delete the
invisible single character entity that Notebook and other editors like to
insert at the start of file.

-Original Message-
From: Gene Falck


Paul wrote:

And how do you get around the UTF-8 signature or byte order mark (BOM) 
that some editors add to the document?

I see you already have some replies on this BOM bit.

For looking over your file format (and also simply deleting the BOM) you
might also try a utility like XVI32.exe which displays your file character
by character along side the hex values. Anything that your editor puts
before the DOCTYPE will put you into quirks mode so the BOM (and anything
else the editor inserted at the beginning of the file) can and probably
should be deleted.

I like XVI32 a lot because I don't have a lot of files to run in batch and I
was curious what was happening.


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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Paul Noone]

I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that a little javascript could
manipulate the numbering.

Also, and I'll probably get lynched for this but the following should also
work in a transiational doctype.

ol
  li value=40/li
  ...

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Somaya Langley
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 4:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

Hi All - 

I'm putting together a template for a contents list page for the National
Library of Australia's online pictures delivery system.  We need to start an
ordered list on a page from a number other than 1, as the lists could be
quite long and so will be chunked into a set per page.

There are two solutions...
the first, for example: 
ol start=40
li
divtext info in here/div
/li
...

or, the second:
ol
li
divnumber inserted in here from our digital content management
system/div divtext info in here/div /li ...

While the first would be more elegant, start is now a depricated attribute.

What do people suggest?

Thanks
Somaya


_
Somaya Langley
Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst

National Library of Australia
Parkes Place
Canberra ACT 2600

ph +61 2 6262 1366
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.musicaustralia.org
http://www.nla.gov.au








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RE: [WSG] CSS Validators

[Paul Noone]

I hazard to mention that Dreamweaver has built-in validation for CSS acrosse
various browsers.

StyleMaster is probably worth checking out, too. Although there are others
on this list far better equipped to dicuss its merits than I. ;)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Geoff Pack
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:43 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] CSS Validators


Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one)
that I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local
network? We currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is
not available for download.

Cheers
Geoff Pack






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RE: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

[Paul Noone]

Sunny, what Jon and I meant was to put the span at the end of the link like
this:

a class=externalThe linkspan class=extimage/span/a

This will force the image to appear at the nend of the link.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of SunUp
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:53 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

Thanks Jon ...

It was suggested that I try span, which I did, but IE still displays the
image at the end of the line, where the long link text wraps, instead of at
the of whole link.

I think I'll just hide it afterall, and IE users can (in the inimitable
words of Dad in The Castle) suffer in their jocks.

thanks,
sunny

On 11/24/05, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Is there a way to make it display the image at the END of the LINK, 
 instead of at the end of the LINE?
 I've messed around w/ placement and padding etc. No joy.

 Hi Sunny

 Turning them off for IE has always been my answer. If you realy want 
 the bg img in there to indicate an external link one workaround is to 
 add a span before the closing /a and apply a bg to that but it's a
little verbose.

 btw... [off topic] for all of you who may go to the Melbourne bbq 
 *blah* on behalf of anyone suffering under winter in the northern 
 hemisphere; when people start talking about frisbees I get jealous.

 Jon Tan
 www.gr0w.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[Paul Noone]

Amazing site. Nice use of pictograms.

Categorising all that data must have been one hell of a job. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:18 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

Somaya Langley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[...]* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the 
title or some descriptive metadata (similar to search results pages on 
the site:
http://www.musicaustralia.org)

If the ol is just to place the record in a block of search results like
the example site then it might be worth considering dl with dt as the
hyperlinked title - that would also apply more meningful html to the title
of the item returned. The results description shown contextualy [Resources
(1-20 of 529)] etc. numbers the block anyway. Interesting site btw.

Jon Tan

www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:
 ol
   li value=40/li
  is deprecated, or is it?

It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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--
Incoming: No virus found.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/180 - Release Date: 23/11/2005


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[WSG] BOM and charset declaration in CSS

[Paul Noone]

Who uses an encoding declaration at the head of their external CSS style
sheets?

And how do you get around the UTF-8 signature or byte order mark (BOM) that
some editors add to the document? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:03 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0

From the W3C

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Working Group has released
Working Drafts of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 [1] and HTML
Techniques for WCAG 2.0 [2] and a First Public Working Draft of
Understanding WCAG 2.0 [3]. Following WCAG makes Web content more accessible
to the vast majority of users, including people with disabilities and older
users, using many different devices including a wide variety of assistive
technology. Read about the Web Accessibility Initiative [4].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Thanks
Russ

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RE: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

[Paul Noone]

Set a width or padding on your exit class that is sufficient to display the
image. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of SunUp
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:59 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

 ... what Jon and I meant was to put the span at the end of the link 
 like
 this:

 a class=externalThe linkspan class=extimage/span/a


*nod*

I did try that.

And then the CSS would be:

span.exit {
  background: url(media/external.gif) no-repeat; }

yea?

It doesn't show at all :(

Clearly I need a sign on my back that says I'm too thick to do this stuff.

Thanks guys,

sunny.
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RE: [WSG] Bi-directional text

[Paul Noone]

Your greatest problem may be deciding which encoding to use. If your English
language text will be inlcined to use a broad spectrum of characters then it
may be prudent to use images for the Hebrew words and put the definition in
the alt tag.

Who are your users?? This will help you decide which approach is best. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mordechai Peller
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 10:06 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Bi-directional text

I need to mark-up a document (XHTML) written in English, but which includes
some Hebrew words. I'm trying to decide the following:

1. How should the words be marked-up: span, dfn, or just leave them in
the flow?
2. Is the bdo element needed, or just the dir attribute?
3. How should the transliteration and translation be included: title
attribute or following in the flow?
4. How's the browser support for bidi?
5. What should be included in the head element?

Thanks
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RE: [WSG] Bi-directional text

[Paul Noone]

Thanks for your comments, Andrew.

At least your other reply was of some use.

Just when _did_ this list stop being one of altruistic support for
accessibility issues and become a forum for personal insult?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Andrew Cunningham
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:14 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Bi-directional text

Umm

Paul Noone wrote:
 Your greatest problem may be deciding which encoding to use. If your 
 English language text will be inlcined to use a broad spectrum of 
 characters then it may be prudent to use images for the Hebrew words 
 and put the definition in the alt tag.
 

images for words? sounds like an approach I'd expect in the mid to late 90s.

Andrew

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RE: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

[Paul Noone]

Hey, we're all here to be entertained. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 7:22 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:39:23 -0500, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 That's why the

 safest move is to apply the border to the image.

Agreed, just curious. Thanks for playing along. ;-)

--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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RE: [WSG] Fluid problems

[Paul Noone]

 
I'm possibly missing something huge here but couldn't you save yourself
massive amounts of pain by going back to a single DIV that has a 2px grey
border on it? Drop your text in there. Then just absolutely position your
guitar pic in another layer.

I'm sure I've missed something.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of The Visual 
Process
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:38 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Fluid problems

Why does your base.css file have html in it?

Adam Morris wrote:



  

I'm having BIG problems trying to get the content of this site to be 
held within the image 'containers' I've used. Help me, please?! I'm 
beginning to lose it.

Adam

http://www.janelehrer.co.uk/live5

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RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

[Paul Noone]

 
Christian Montoya sagely expounded:

99% of users have no idea...

Nuff said. ;)

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RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

[Paul Noone]

Title: Can't select text on IE



Why do you want to select the text? This might go some way 
towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally overhauling 
your stylsheet.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:03 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Can't select text on 
IEImportance: High

Hi, 
I have written an html page based on CSS layout. The 
page has a parent div tag which contains many other div tags including 
one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the Content.
The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a part 
of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line, all 
the text on the page within the parent div tag including the side menu 
bar get selected.
Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem 
? 
Thanks 
__ 
Bhuvnesh 
Chaudhry
*
This e-mail message (along 
with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and could contain 
information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended 
recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or use of any of the 
information is prohibited. Please notify us immediately by return e-mail if you 
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RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

[Paul Noone]

Title: Message



Then sadly you'll need to dispense with any absolute divs 
thatobstruct the flow of the content you're trying to 
select.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:48 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't select text on 
IE

Paul,

It a 
simplecopy and paste requirement.

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
  Behalf Of Paul NooneSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 15:39 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't 
  select text on IE
  Why do you want to select the text? This might go some 
  way towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally 
  overhauling your stylsheet.
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
  BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:03 PMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Can't select text on 
  IEImportance: High
  
  Hi, 
  I have written an html page based on CSS layout. 
  The page has a parent div tag which contains many other div tags 
  including one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the 
  Content.
  The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a 
  part of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line, 
  all the text on the page within the parent div tag including the side 
  menu bar get selected.
  Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem 
  ? 
  Thanks 
  __ 
  Bhuvnesh 
  Chaudhry
  *
  This e-mail message 
  (along with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and 
  could contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not 
  the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or use 
  of any of the information is prohibited. Please notify us immediately by 
  return e-mail if you are not the intended recipient and delete all copies of 
  the original message and attachments.
  
  
  This footnote also 
  confirms that this message has been checked for computer viruses.
  
  
  *
  
*
This e-mail message (along 
with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and could contain 
information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended 
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RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

[Paul Noone]

Title: Message



Or...View Source and copy. Assuming that's an 
option.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:48 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't select text on 
IE

Paul,

It a 
simplecopy and paste requirement.

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
  Behalf Of Paul NooneSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 15:39 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't 
  select text on IE
  Why do you want to select the text? This might go some 
  way towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally 
  overhauling your stylsheet.
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
  BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:03 PMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Can't select text on 
  IEImportance: High
  
  Hi, 
  I have written an html page based on CSS layout. 
  The page has a parent div tag which contains many other div tags 
  including one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the 
  Content.
  The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a 
  part of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line, 
  all the text on the page within the parent div tag including the side 
  menu bar get selected.
  Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem 
  ? 
  Thanks 
  __ 
  Bhuvnesh 
  Chaudhry
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RE: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

[Paul Noone]

Add a 1px border to either a or img tags 
within the DIV's #class.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
csslistSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:45 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] snug a border around diff 
sized pix
I have a div that shows phots dynamically 
that are different sizes and would like to throw a 1px border aound them, I 
can't seem to get them to hug the photo, anyone got any good tricks for 
this?tia

RE: [WSG] Video of Screen Reader Use?

[Paul Noone]

I managed to convince mine by suggesting our organsiation's website as an
example site during the screen reading element of an accessibility
conference. She was present...and far less amused than I. ;)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joseph Lindsay
Sent: Monday, 14 November 2005 9:05 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Video of Screen Reader Use?

Does anybody have, or know of any video of users on the Internet with a
screen reader?

While managers listen to the arguments about accessibility, I would like to
appeal to their emotions as well.  It is much easier to empathise with a
person, than facts and figures.
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RE: [WSG] css instead of JS(ajax)

[Paul Noone]

Using a PNG you could achieve a similar effect.

This was actually demoed at WE05. You should be able to find the
presentation and podcast on the WE05 website.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jad Madi
Sent: Wednesday, 9 November 2005 6:17 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] css instead of JS(ajax)

Hi,
any idea if it's possible to create menu like this one pure css without JS ?

http://dojotoolkit.org/~alex/dojo/trunk/demos/widget/Fisheye.html


if yes, please shot a kickstart
--
Regards
Jad madi
Blog
http://EasyHTTP.com/jad/
Web standards Planet
http://W3planet.net/
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RE: [WSG] Scalable background-image?

[Paul Noone]

I'm going with 'no' here. I've seen some cool stuff with % in layered divs
but no bg images. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jared Smith
Sent: Wednesday, 9 November 2005 8:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Scalable background-image?

Is there any way using CSS to get a background-image to scale?

I've created an accessible interface that uses em for layout and font sizing
control. Everything scales beautifully as the font size changes except for
background images, which remain at the size of the original image. I can't
seem to find a way to get them to scale as the font size
(em) changes - something akin to CSS3's background-size. And % is not an
option as it scales based on the viewport size, not the font size.

Jared

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RE: [WSG] css instead of JS(ajax)

[Paul Noone]

Damn these infernal acronyms. ;) 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, 9 November 2005 9:10 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] css instead of JS(ajax)

Paul Noone wrote:
 Using a PNG you could achieve a similar effect.

Did you mean SVG?

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re-
+ dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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RE: [WSG] Firefox onblur and onfocus event bubbling bug

[Paul Noone]

You must Focas. Sorry, couldn't resist. 
:P

Thanks for the heads-up.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Focas, 
GrantSent: Monday, 7 November 2005 12:12 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Firefox onblur and onfocus 
event bubbling bug


Hi 
standardistas,

Ive had a problem with onfocus and 
onblur where Firefox is calling onblur before onfocus when clicking on an input 
element.
This is a bug (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53118 
) because it goes against the DOM2 Event handling 
spec.
The only way around it at the moment 
seems to be to check whether youre running on Gecko via client sniffing and 
insert a conditional code fork in your _javascript_ so [] you explicitly 
preventBubbles on the event that really shoulndt bubble in the first place. 
(from the page referred to above).

Just thought Id let those of you 
unaware of this issue know so you dont have to suffer the same frustration Ive 
had trying to figure out whats happened. Anyone with Firefox 1.5 beta know if 
this issue is fixed in that version?

Heres my 
test:

HTML:
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC 
"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" 
html
head
titleonblur 
test/title
/head
body
input name="test" type="text" 
id="test" 
/
/body
/html


IE6 
using a mouse to click into the 
textbox alerts onfocus called
using a mouse to click outside the 
textbox alerts onblur called
keyboard tabbing to the textbox 
alerts onfocus called
keyboard tabbing out of the textbox 
alerts onblur called, followed by onkeydown called followed by onfocus 
called followed by onblur

Firefox 
1.07

using a mouse to click into the 
textbox alerts onblur called followed by onfocus 
called
using a mouse to click outside the 
textbox alerts onblur called
keyboard tabbing to the textbox 
alerts onblur called followed by onfocus called
keyboard tabbing out of the textbox 
alerts onblur called, followed by onkeydown called 


Grant Focas**This message is intended for the addressee named and may containprivileged information or confidential information or both. If youare not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.**

RE: [WSG] List not showing top and bottom border

[Paul Noone]

Title: Message



Play around with your margin and padding on the a 
elements - padding: 0.2em 1em;. It's probably pushing the borders 
out.

I've got a list for horizontal navigation where the first 
list item wouldn't show it's right border (separator) in IE no matter what I did 
in the stylesheet. Adding a space before to emulate the padding I wanted anyway 
ended up doing the trick.

NB: You linked to the wrong stylesheet. It was all in the 
page. ;)


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco Fleur - Pacific 
FoxSent: Friday, 4 November 2005 7:40 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] List not showing top and 
bottom border

Hi 
all,

I am now designing 
in FireFox first and it works like a charm, but now I have a list that shows up 
fine in Firefox but not Explorer, the list does not show the top and bottom 
border in explorer, anyone know the reasoning behind this?
www.123plugin.com

www.123plugin.com/_resource/style/default.css


Regards,

Taco Fleur - CEOPacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au an 
industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 
** Web Design and Development 

** SMS Solutions, including 
developer API
** Domain Registration, .COM for as 
low as AUSD$15 a year, .COM.AU for AUSD$50 two years!
** Seamless Merchant 
integration
** We endorse PayPal, accept 
payments online now!

RE: [WSG] advices for using headings more correctly

[Paul Noone]

Hi Julián,

H1 should 
only be used once, generally as your page title. In the detail view of an 
article the article's titleshould be an H1,unless your article pages 
always carry the parent title of e.g. News, in which case you would use H2 or 
lower.

H2 headings and 
lower can be used repeatedly but they need to keep their numerical 
hierarchy.

H1
 H2
 
H3
 
H2
 
H3
 
H4
 
H3
 H4
 
H2
...

You 
shouldn't use an H3 as a parent to an H2 tag. If you're concerned about the 
visual appearance then there is nothing wrong with bumping up the size of the H3 
tag for your articles.

Your 
suggested use of headings in the classic markup example you provided is 
correct.



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julián 
LanderrecheSent: Thursday, 3 November 2005 9:16 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] advices for using headings 
more correctly
I know this is a topic that often 
comes back to the list. Well, it comes back again.I'm 
having some troubles when trying to think how headings should be used, and I'm 
always thinking about simplify the site structure, but that simplification 
always seems to mean "strip out content".Summary of this e-mail: I want 
to know some good practices about using heading tags. Specially for the first 
three levels (h1, h2, h3) that are usually the most used tags for headings, and 
that I often find myself doing "malabares" to create a good site structure using 
headings. I'm a bit lost.Suppose this basic content:My site 
title...navigation... My section 
name  Latest Articles 
  Article 1 Title  
  paragraph 
  Article 2 Title  
  paragraph..etc..How 
will you mark it up? I think the usual (clasic) mark-up ish1My site 
titleh1...navigation... h2My section 
name/h2  h3Latest 
Articles/h3   
h4Article 1 Title/h4  
  pparagraph/p   h4Article 2 
Title/h4
pparagraph/pBut I 
would like to know if the following is a valid way too (i'm not talking about 
valid code, but valid content structure).h1My site titleh1...navigation...hr 
/ h1My section 
name/h1  *h3Latest 
Articles/h3*   
h2Article 1 Title/h2  
  pparagraph/p   h2Article 2 
Title/h2
pparagraph/pNotice that I'm using 
h1 level headings twice, but *most important* is that i'm using an 
h3 heading *before* and h2 heading. Why?I want to give *more 
relevance to the "Articles Titles"* than to the "Latest Articles" heading, 
because that last one is more a kind of "separation heading". I think the 
"Latest articles" as a level 3 heading more like a visual/semantic/structure aid 
for users to know what is the content that comes below that heading.So, 
I find myself lost and this are some questions I have:1. Should I 
mark-up "Latest Articles" with another tag that is not a heading tag? The 
problem here is that if I mark it up with anything else, it's probably that I 
will use stylesheet to "transform" it into a heading, and that is something I 
want to avoid.2. Or should I keep a minor-level heading (h3 before h2) to 
mark it up? 3. Should I include My Site Title wrapped by a heading in all 
pages? Should I include My Section Name?4. Or should I start directly with a 
h1/h2 applied to the most relevant content in the page (articles in this 
case)?5. Should I avoid to repeat headings of the same level in the same 
page?6. Anything else I should know about the world of 
headings?Thanks in advance and excuse my 
english.Julián

RE: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie fieldset

[Paul Noone]

Tia,

Can u be more specific? Apart from the interminable load 
time the page and form both look good. Very pretty 
layout.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
csslistSent: Thursday, 3 November 2005 9:50 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie 
fieldset
I had this fixed but it seems to be 
backlook at formhttp://65.36.226.10/content/contact.cfmany 
suggestions?tia

RE: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie fieldset

[Paul Noone]

Do you mean it's getting chopped off? What's it meant to 
look like?

I'm getting scroll bars in IE6 and can access the entire 
form.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
csslistSent: Thursday, 3 November 2005 11:13 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie 
fieldset
thanks :)Yeah the load time sux but even 
if i cut it it doesnt save enough to make it go faster.heres what it 
looks like on my pc with 
ie6http://www.jamwerx.com/form1.jpg

From: "Paul Noone" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 
Wednesday, November 02, 2005 6:57 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie 
fieldset
Tia,

Can u be more specific? Apart from the interminable load 
time the page and form both look good. Very pretty 
layout.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
csslistSent: Thursday, 3 November 2005 9:50 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie 
fieldset
I had this fixed but it seems to be 
backlook at formhttp://65.36.226.10/content/contact.cfmany 
suggestions?tia

RE: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie fieldset

[Paul Noone]

Ah, I see. The background PNG is extending outside the 
border of the fieldset. Bizarro.

Have you tried setting a background colour to see if it 
does the same? If not, then the problem lies with the background 
image.

Try setting a value for background-position: top 
left.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
csslistSent: Thursday, 3 November 2005 11:40 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie 
fieldset
this is how it is supposed to look, see how 
there isnt any color above the feildset 
border.http://www.jamwerx.com/form2.png (on ff mac)where as 
this one, there is some grey extending up over border towards the top (on ie6 
pc)http://www.jamwerx.com/form1.jpgthe form works just there is 
now some color overflow outside of the fieldsetdave

From: "Paul Noone" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 
Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:30 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] color overflow in pc ie 
fieldset
Do you mean it's getting chopped off? What's it meant to 
look like?

I'm getting scroll bars in IE6 and can access the entire 
form.

RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?

[Paul Noone]

 The programmers dont want me to do any coding or as
 little as possible-so as not to step on thier toes.

Don't just step, STOMP! If they're not going to do their job right then let
it be known there is someone who can...and provide the reasons why. At the
end of the day, if it can save time and money, then any decent manager will
go for it.

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RE: [WSG] Sorry for the OT

[Paul Noone]

Did you have your Out Of Office Assistants on?

This will automatically get you bounced to the digest, or even off the list.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 1:20 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Sorry for the OT

OFF LIST REPLIES PLEASE...

A co-worker and I have not received any mail from the css-d list in days.  
Is it just us?

TIA

--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?

[Paul Noone]

 That and clean XHTML is easier to hand-code than tables...

Without wanting to open a can of worms here; how so? Do you mean in
conjunction with CSS, or just that XHTML markup is cleaner than that of
HTML?

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RE: [WSG] Unstyling named anchors

[Paul Noone]

Thanks guys. Patrick is right. I'd already validated the code and it came up
fine.

The reason I've run into this little problem is because, unlike HTML, XHTML
seems to require that the a tag surrounds some text. Perhaps an nbsp;
would do it?

The named anchor is picking up the color of the a:link style.

I've currently got your standard style layout as below. I was wondering if
simply adding an a {} style with the right color would be appropriate.

a:link {}
a:visited {}
a:hover, a:active {}

How are other people preventing this, apart from hiding their anchor tags
(which I suppose is a fair enough solution.

-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

 name is used for old browsers. And I'm pretty sure it validates 
 against a Strict DTD (HTML or XHTML 1.0).
 Please correct me if I'm wrong here...

No, you're indeed correct. Up to XHTML 1.0 Strict it's perfectly valid to
use the name attribute on anchors. It's only XHTML 1.1 that deprecated it.

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RE: [WSG] Unstyling named anchors

[Paul Noone]

Well now I'm totally confused. Ah...can anyone spell Dreamweaver? :\ a-HEM.
Big sorry there.

 What make you think you can't leave them empty?

Assumptions based on a code rewrite. Is that not the case? In which case can
it be self-containg and self-closing too?

a name=fubar /

I'm sure I ran into problems with that somewhere.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Damien Hill
Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 9:36 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Unstyling named anchors

For IE and Firefox on PC, the styles I apply to a:link don't effect anchors.
See example  http://www.damienhill.com/tests/links/


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Noone
Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 7:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Unstyling named anchors

Thanks guys. Patrick is right. I'd already validated the code and it came up
fine.

The reason I've run into this little problem is because, unlike HTML, XHTML
seems to require that the a tag surrounds some text. Perhaps an nbsp;
would do it?

The named anchor is picking up the color of the a:link style.

I've currently got your standard style layout as below. I was wondering if
simply adding an a {} style with the right color would be appropriate.

a:link {}
a:visited {}
a:hover, a:active {}

How are other people preventing this, apart from hiding their anchor tags
(which I suppose is a fair enough solution.

-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

 name is used for old browsers. And I'm pretty sure it validates 
 against a Strict DTD (HTML or XHTML 1.0).
 Please correct me if I'm wrong here...

No, you're indeed correct. Up to XHTML 1.0 Strict it's perfectly valid to
use the name attribute on anchors. It's only XHTML 1.1 that deprecated it.

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RE: [WSG] help on making this link validate

[Paul Noone]

You could just try hex encoding the address. There are 
several utilities available that will convert an email (or any other address) to 
its hexadecimal value. It's not bulletproof but, then, what is. And it 
validates.

FYI, Smarty (PHP template system) has this 
built-in.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
csslistSent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 10:15 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] help on making this link 
validate
I need to get this email link to validate, i 
am using a coldfusion function to do this and I tried encoding it to a url 
safe line (urlencodedformat) but jacks it, any other ideas?or any good 
ideas for hiding emails from spammers that can use a dynamic email 
address..http://65.36.226.10/content/contact.cfmtiadave

RE: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites

[Paul Noone]

Thanks, Sam. That was useful. I've been looking for official-looking
third-party confitmation of this description. It's now being printed out and
will be framed and mounted by end of day. :) 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Samuel Richardson
Sent: Monday, 31 October 2005 10:09 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites

When I explain to clients why standards are important I bring up the
following list:

http://www.geminidevelopment.com.au/html/article_whycomplient.php

And explain it to them point by point.

Samuel



Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

 As a thought, I wanted to point something out.  No one cares about 
 standards or accessibility but us.  Its our job to care.

 As an example, we can view any of the URLs on this list, and see a 
 common thread - we all like to point out that we use standards and 
 care about accessibility.

 I've noticed that often, our text almost sounds as though we write it 
 just in case another group member reads it so we make sure no one 
 thinks we suck or something.

 You won't find this in any other industry.  Our potential clients want 
 to know that we care, but we can never expect them to care about the 
 difference between HTML and XHTML and XML, nor should we ever expect 
 them to care much about CSS vs. tables for layout.

 Our clients don't care as long as it works.  They do care that we care 
 enough to make them the best, most accessible site we can, but they 
 could care less how.

 Just a thought.

 Joe Taylor
 http://sitesbyjoe.com
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RE: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites

[Paul Noone]

You know, you CAN be semantic to a point. Usability is 
directly related to accessibility. If a site's unusable, ot difficult to 
navigate, then it is inaccessible. Nuff said, peeps. Let's get back to some real 
work.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard 
CzeigerSent: Monday, 31 October 2005 11:30 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own 
sites

Actually James, I think this is 
more a Usability concern rather than an Accessibility concern.
Whatyou might say instead is: 


"I can't view the site on my 
browser and even if I could, the text is samll and I can't change 
it!"
Or 

"Why does this site tell me I need 
to have _javascript_ turned on? How do I even do that?"

R :o)


- Original Message - 
From: James Ellis 

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
HiEveryone cares about accessibility, both consciously 
and/or subsconsciously."I hate this website, I can't find anything on 
it. I'm going somewhere else" - that's someone caring about 
accessibility.CheersJames
On 10/31/05, Joseph R. B. 
Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 
As 
  a thought, I wanted to point something out.No one cares 
  aboutstandards or accessibility but us.Its our job to 
  care.

[WSG] Unstyling named anchors

[Paul Noone]

Hiya,

When using XHTML strict named anchors need to surround some link text, yes?

Does anyone have a standard approach to unstyling named anchors I this case
which will work cross-browser?

I'd tinkered with a[name]:hover but I'm loathe to create a style for this. I
don't think hiding them is th eoption either.

Thanks.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of John Allsopp
Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2005 2:11 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar

Hi,

Check out the hcalendar microformat

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar

It's based on the widely used iCalender format from the IEEE.

Two of the founders of Microformats, Tantek Celik and Eric Meyer are
speaking at Web Essentials in Sydney at the end of September.

http://we05.com

Tantek in particular will be looking a the issues of semantics in detail

john

On 18/08/2005, at 1:20 PM, Scott Swabey ((Lafinboy Productions)) wrote:

 G'day all

 I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if 
 relevant), and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically 
 correct table for layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and 
 layout the day names and month dates. After working on this for a 
 while and thinking about it for wa too long I am faced with the 
 quandary - which of the two versions is _more_ semantically correct? 
 Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered 
 lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option?

 Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated.

 Regards

 Scott Swabey
 Lafinboy Productions
 www.lafinboy.com

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John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum
::  http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher ::
http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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RE: [WSG] Text within tables

[Paul Noone]

Hi Kenny,

Yes, that makes perfect sense. So, for example, if I want to put a single
word into a table cell - e.g. THCategory/TH - for it to be semantically
correct, should it be wrapped in P tags? It's hardly a paragraph and
contains no other inline elements.

But if I were to use - e.g. THSelect a bcategory/b./TH - then I
imagine P tags would make sense.

What I'm really asking is what, from an accessibility poont of view, is the
XHTML strict markup for this?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kenny Graham

The content of a table cell should only be in a paragraph element if the
content of that cell is a paragraph.

 Should be a simple enough question but should text within a table cell 
 ALWAYS be surrounded by P tags, or do we assume the TD to be the 
 block element surrounding the inline text?

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RE: [WSG] Text within tables

[Paul Noone]

They're just there for emphasis. Trust me. ;)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kenny Graham
Sent: Friday, 28 October 2005 4:27 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text within tables

 THCategory/TH - for it to be semantically correct, should it be 
 wrapped in P tags? It's hardly a paragraph and contains no other 
 inline elements.

Nope, no P tags.

 But if I were to use - e.g. THSelect a bcategory/b./TH - then 
 I imagine P tags would make sense.

I'd still leave out the p tags, since it's not a paragraph, just a sentence.
Nothing wrong with having an inline element inside a th. 
If you feel funny using th as the only container, then i suppose you could
wrap its contents in a div, but it's not necessary.

 What I'm really asking is what, from an accessibility poont of view, 
 is the XHTML strict markup for this?

XHTML 1.0 Strict and above is all I know, so that's what I'm basing my views
on.  The side effect of only knowing strict XHTML is that your capital tags
and bold elements make me cringe.  ;)
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RE: [WSG] nowrap: nowrap

[Paul Noone]

Title: Message



white-space: nowrap;


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
BhuvneshSent: Thursday, 27 October 2005 12:30 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] nowrap: 
nowrapImportance: High

Hi,

Is there any way to specify a"nowrap"for content ofa Table Header or a Table Cell ? I have tried 
nowrap: nowrap; but it doesn't 
work.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bhuvnesh 
Chaudhry
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RE: [WSG] Trouble getting 3rd column to extend to footer

[Paul Noone]

Hi Bruce,

Have you considered using to main divs with a background 
pic applied left and right, respectively, to achieve color and then adding your 
columns over that with fixed width? This is the only way I managed to get it to 
work without scripting and seems a common enough technique.

page
 head/head
 div1div2
 
left/left
 
right/right?
 
center/center
 /div2/div1
 footer/footer
/page

You can see a live example here: 
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce 
GilbertSent: Wednesday, 26 October 2005 7:41 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Trouble getting 3rd column to 
extend to footer
hello all,on a site I am working on (http://www.ncpersonalinjurylaw.com/php/Adams.php), my third 
column (the grey one) isn't extending down to the footer on its own. The third 
column is being called 'right_col' and the CSS specific to that column is: 
#right_col {/*creates right column on page*/width:155px; 
padding:0 
;margin:0;background-color:#ccc;color:inherit;float:right;}* 
html div#right_col {/*creates right column on page, only IE sees this*/ 
width:150px; padding:0 
;margin:0;background-color:#ccc;color:inherit;float:right;}I 
know that that in itself doesn't tell you much so the full CSS can be located 
at:http://www.ncpersonalinjurylaw.com/php/CSS/Global.cssI 
do want to point out that I was able to achieve equal columns using JS (the PVII 
equal columns technique), but I would prefer to get this working w/o JS. Also 
with the equal columns, things got "messed up" when I resized the text. 
I have tried adding height :100% to the third columns div without 
success.Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciative.-- ::Bruce:: 

RE: [WSG] Argh! Clearing issues with center column

[Paul Noone]

Thanks awesomely for all those who helped point me in the right direction.
After attempting innumerable hacks I finally found the one I wanted.

For those who are interested the problem was, naturally, an IE bug. The less
famous 'italic' bug to be precise.

Usually this bug only manifests itself in the form of containers being
widened to accommodate italic text. In this case it was forcing my main
content wy down the page and thus breaking the layout.

The solution (yet another added to the ever-growwing IE-override.css)
involves the Holly Hack with a twist. The hack gets applied to any div
containing the italic text (and, in this case, the immediate parents).

/* \*/
* html #middle { height: 1%; overflow: visible;}
* html #content { height: 1%; overflow: visible;}
* html #update { height: 1%; overflow: visible;}
/* */

Thanks again!

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RE: [WSG] specifying width of pre

[Paul Noone]

If you're using PHP/mySQL then you could always write a simple function like 
below, or use PHP's built-in nl2br() function.

//Clean-up function to remove BRs and whitespace from data wihtout 
hurting the HTML
function nl2br_skip_html($string) {
   // remove any carriage returns (mysql)
   $string = str_replace(\r, '', $string);

   // replace any newlines that aren't preceded by a  with a br /
   $string = preg_replace('/(?!)\n/', br /\n, $string);

   return $string;
}

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Boehmer 
[Addictive Media]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2005 1:59 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] specifying width of pre

Other than a scroll bar (overflow) there is no solution? 

The reason I need to use pre is that the content comes from a database that 
doesn't use HTML br's, but normal linebreaks. So to format the text correctly 
I need to put it in pre tags, but of course I want it to still fit into the 
rest of the content.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Street
Sent: Monday, 24 October 2005 6:32 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] specifying width of pre

codeprecontent/pre/code

Gives you an alternate parent element which you can then set to scroll or 
whatever, preventing the content from spilling out across your layout 
generally. I think.

On 10/24/05, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Is there any way to specify a max width for content of pre tags? 
 Currently the content of my pre tags does not automatically wrap 
 when the parent div is at an end - it just keeps on running until it finds 
 the end of the line.
 I know the idea of the pre tag is to display the content as it is, 
 but of course I want it to remain in the boundaries of my parent element.

 Any ideas?


--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
Nnvy jq♞z



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RE: [WSG] specifying width of pre

[Paul Noone]

Am I the only one getting blank replies from Joshua? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Street
Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2005 3:06 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] specifying width of pre


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[WSG] Argh! Clearing issues with center column

[Paul Noone]

Hi guys,

I know this isn't an easy one to crack. I've applied all the latest
bleeding-edge clearing techniques but my center column's content still drops
away at various widths when you resize the browser window.

I'd always thought that it occurred when the 3rd column's content was higher
but this is not the case. Any simple solutions that don't require a complete
layout rewrite are much sought after. :)

http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Nick Cowie
Sent: Friday, 21 October 2005 6:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM

Paul

Thankyou for that, it will be very usefull for a couple of projects I have.

 The current test URL is here - http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/ 
 -
One word of warning in IE6 at about 960px wide browser window the centre
content drops below the calendar. It only happens in a small range say 950
to 970 pixels wide.

 Which leads me to my next question. Anyone know of a calendar solution 
 using PHP that creates clean code?
I would look at the one that comes with wordpress:
http://wordpress.org  it does nice valid code.



--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com
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RE: [WSG] Argh! Clearing issues with center column

[Paul Noone]

Yeah, I tried that first. I've now applied it to all nested containers that
contain a floated DIV but the center still drops. I just can't seem to
figure this out.

It only occurs on some pages but I haven't been able to determine exactly
what is causing it. Maybe it's HRs, or long URLs. I just don't know.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of YW Webmaster
Sent: Monday, 24 October 2005 12:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Argh! Clearing issues with center column

Hello there,

Have you tried applying the clearfix hack to a container wrapping around
your whole page?  I didn't test it thoroughly but it seemed to work on IE
5.5 and 6 for me.

Good luck.



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RE: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM

[Paul Noone]

I won't blush too hard if you mention my name. ;)

If you let me know when it's up that'd be great too.

Really, though, I didn't create anything new, I just applied it.

The current test URL is here - http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/ - but
please don't check the site for validation. I've just intriduced a claendar
module that produces some of the most horrid URL and code I've ever seen.

Which leads me to my next question. Anyone know of a calendar solution using
PHP that creates clean code?

And if you resize the site's window you may notice the centre column's
content disapperas/drops from view. I've applied various new wave clearing
solutions but it still does it. Any ideas?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Friday, 21 October 2005 3:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM

Thanks guys, that answers all my questions.

@ Paul: Could you please give a link to your website where this is now
working? Also, I'd like to add this as a resource to Liquid Designs.
Will you be writing something on this, or could I just write something and
give the credit to you?

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RE: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM

[Paul Noone]

It seems to work from IE 5.x up. Not in the Mac version but what does? ;)

I've just added the line to the page container style in my primary
stylesheet.

Works like a treat and doesn't appear to affect Mozilla/Firefox. Haven't
checked other browsers but am eager for feedback.

-Original Message-
From: Christian Montoya

OK, now you have me very excited. Does this go in external stylesheets?
How's the support for IE browsers? Other browsers? Tell me more.

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RE: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM

[Paul Noone]

So we're very close here then?

Would something like this be appropriate and still validate?

!--[if IE]

style type=text/css@import IE-override.css;/style

![endif]--

-Original Message-
From: Lachlan Hardy

G'day Christian,

The expression code that Paul used (and which I often use myself) is
proprietary to Microsoft. IE allows some Javascript within CSS files. It is
however invalid according to W3C standards. When using code like that, I add
it in a separate IEhacks.css file via conditional comments (or I'd like
to!). But, then, we all do that, right?

Cheers
Lachlan

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