Re: [WSG] To target or not

[Steve Olive]

On Friday 20 July 2007 07:44, Dave Lane wrote:
> If I click on a link on their site I expect it to open in my current
> window - if it insists on opening a new window, it pisses me off,
> because that's not how I work.  I see that approach as indicating a
> designer still in a very IE5.5-6 mindset: primitive.  Sites that try to
> manipulate me don't pique my interest, they put me right off (and,
> needless to say, I don't go back).
>
> Dave

There are valid cases for opening content from the same site in a new window. 
The most obvious is when logging into secure sections of web sites, like 
online banking. By forcing a new window that then generates the secure 
session and closing the window at the end of the session you prevent people 
from using the back button to re-access the secure content. The new window 
should also have all elements other than a scrollbar hidden so the window 
can't easily be used to continue surfing the Internet.

IMHO this should become a "web convention" in the way the Internet has been 
commercialised. All online transactions should be conducted in their own 
window that is killed once the transaction is complete.

-- 
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Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
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bit more independent and radical and
consider intelligence the ability to
think about matters on your own and
ask a lot of skeptical questions to 
get at the real truth, not just what
you're told it is."
Apple's Inventor - Steve Wozniak 2006
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Re: [WSG] Using target="_blank"

[Steve Olive]

On Tuesday 24 July 2007 23:49, Ryan Lin wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via
> target="_blank" is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe
> that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision,
> not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only way to
> achieve opening the new window is through JavaScripts.
>
> So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target="_blank"
> ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any
> non-technical argument that I can give to them?
>
> Ryan
>
>

The argument must be why you are using the XHTML Strict DTD, not about one 
small component of XHTML Strict.

What is interesting though is that HTML 5 is keeping the target attribute:

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#valid8

-- 
Regards,

Steve


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Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body

[Steve Olive]

On Tuesday 07 August 2007 20:37, Rick Lecoat wrote:
>
> And I always wonder how many people, particularly the older generation
> who (without wanting to generalise too much) may not be quite as tech-
> savvy as their kids, actually have no idea that the default text size
> can even be adjusted, and possibly look at browser-default text and
> think "That text looks a bit big and clunking. But I assume that there's
> nothing I can do about except use the text resizing control in IE."
>

It is because most computer training courses don't teach the correct skills, 
so these "bad skills" get passed on. The old 14" - 15" CRT monitors had 
resolutions around 800 x 600 or even 640 x 480 because the graphics cards and 
manufacturing techniques allowed these resolutions. 800 x 600 with the 
default fonts set by Windows gave fonts approxiamtely 12 points in size when 
compared to printed material. When people moved to 17" CRT the resolutions 
moved to 1024 x 768 or stayed at 800 x 600 to get fonts slightly larger than 
standard printed material. If people were having problems seeing textual 
menus or content they were advised to "change the resolution" by "expert 
users".

Larger 19" and 21" monitors were seen as (expensive) aids for visually 
impaired users who needed larger font.

Now we are moving into the LCD age, either 4:3 or 16:9 ratios, but with higher 
pixels densities than early monitors. Most computer trainers still teach 
users to change monitor resolution because the training material has not been 
updated to most effectively use new technology. They don't have the skills or 
knowledge about the usability options in all modern Operating Systems. You've 
seen it in Windows, but ignored it, go on guess where!

It is the tab before Screen Settings called Appearance, but everyone uses the 
Screen Settings Tab and changes the resolution. With LCD monitors the best 
screen appearance is at the native resolution, the maximum number of pixels 
or wires built into the monitor. If the fonts are too small for your eyes, 
change the appearance. Firstly, try "Large Fonts", then "Extra Large Fonts" 
and finally "Advanced" where you can specify fonts, font sizes, icon sizes 
and much more.

If these settings are changed, many people think the screen resolution has 
been changed - and are amazed when shown the 17" LCD is actually running at 
1280 x 1024, the native resolution. They are even more amazed when shown 
browser zooming!

How do I know these things? First hand experience! I teach IT to adults and 
have done for the better part of a decade. I have changed CRT & LCD monitors 
to native resolution with fonts and icons increased in size in classrooms 
used by multiple people, including teachers systems, and found that the 
systems stayed that way for weeks or even months because they were "usable" 
by everyone. Changes only occurred after I had pointed this out to teachers 
and students - they then knew how to set-up the system so it worked for them!

Oh, and if your eyesight is diminishing, or the "default" appearance is hard 
to see, do yourself a favour - get yours eyes checked. You will be amazed at 
the lack of eye strain and headaches after getting glasses - even using your 
new found skills customising the monitor appearance.

-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
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"If you read the same things as others
and say the same things they say, then
you're perceived as intelligent. I'm a
bit more independent and radical and
consider intelligence the ability to
think about matters on your own and
ask a lot of skeptical questions to 
get at the real truth, not just what
you're told it is."
Apple's Inventor - Steve Wozniak 2006
*


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash With Jaws

[Steve Olive]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:49:50 pm Steve Green wrote:
> One of our trainers tells me that only 4% of blind people have no sight at
> all. Some may not be able to see a few feet in front of them and need a
> guide dog to walk up the street, yet they can see a screen close-up and may
> not even need a screen reader (although they would probably benefit from
> using one).
>
> Steve
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tony Crockford
> Sent: 27 September 2007 09:58
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash With Jaws
>
> On 27 Sep 2007, at 09:48, James Jeffery wrote:
> > And i also said a blind person can create graphics, but only at a
> > certain level.
>
> there are also degrees of sight impairment.
>
> I think we should all review our attitudes to sight and sightedness before
> assuming that vision impairment and the use of a screen reader
> automatically means totally blind.
>
> shades of grey, not Black and White thinking
>
> ;o)
>

Hi Marvin,

I have taught students with visual impairments on a number of Information 
Technology courses at TAFE NSW in Bathurst and second these comments. It 
definitely challeges your preconceived ideas about sight, blindness and how 
to overcome these difficulties.

Unfortunately we haven't had a visually impaired student do the web design 
course, but I can't think why an assistant could not be used for these 
graphic modules. I'm unsure of your sight limitations but it is a requirement 
of the various disability legislations that you must not be discriminated 
against because of your disability.

If you are still having problems send me an email at my TAFE address below. We 
are going on holidays tomorrow but I can see what I can do after the break.


-- 
Regards,

Steve
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

[Steve Olive]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 01:15:18 pm Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
> ... to providing the ability to enter the store. Should every store
> in the world be forced to provide a ramp for wheelchair access? No.

Sorry, but this is wrong. This is the exact reason for disability legislation, 
every store should have wheelchair access.

It may be difficult and incur a cost but in our democratic countries we elect 
politicians to make sure that people with disabilities have access to 
infrastructure, public and private commercial places.

Some people have mentioned converting books into Braille and audio formats as 
too difficult. This is wrong and there are specific exemptions in copyright 
legislation that permit this, without the publishers' express permission.

As one other repondant noted, the Internet has opened up a whole new world to 
people with disabilities, not just people with visual impairments. The 
delivery method makes the Internet much more accessible and the protocols 
used for delivery allow for the delivery of content without discrimination.

Someone asked for a car analogy, so to me it is like anti-pollution 
legislation. Does it cost more to reduce harmful emissions from cars? Yes. 
Can a car manufacturer ignore this legislation because "it costs more"? No.
Anti-discrimination legislation is the same, it is about protecting sections 
of our community from being excluded because "it costs more".

-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions


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Re: [WSG] Story Boards

[Steve Olive]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 01:46:58 pm marvin hunkin wrote:
> Hi.
> doing a project for my website development course.
> now, part of the requirements says that i need to create a story board to
> represent what content is to be displayed on each page. Now sighted
> students, would draw navigation and story board diagrams. now, had to do
> this in word tables and tried html.
> but my lecturer is still not happy with what i have come up with.
> now, just wondering, is there any software, that might be able to represent
> the story boards for the four websites that i am developing for this
> semester. any tips, tricks, or any other similar experiences.
> let me know, if anyone been in the same position.
> unfortunately the guy who did start to develop an accessible text to speech
> drawing software, got his phd, and did not complete the project and still
> in limbo. he got to the third user tests, and then nicked off.
> he did this at Burkely University in Callifornia and the product was to be
> called Intercommunication Draw 2. okay, can you help out or give
> suggestions or how to resolve these problems? cheers Marvin.
Hi Marvin,

I recommend starting with a liquid layout like either of Thierry Koblentz's 
CSS Layout 6 at http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/liquid/6.asp or CSS Layout 
8 at http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/liquid/8.asp.

These block layouts can be printed to display the layout. You should then be 
able to describe the size, colours, content and content position of each 
block as the text on the story boards. This description is what makes a 
storyboard effective, not the story board sketch.

Try creating story boards for each section of the layout:

* Header
*Menu
*Content
*Subsection
*Footer

There would be a number of story boards for the content, and maybe the 
subsection, but you should only need a single story board for the other 
sections.

Hope this helps!

-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

[Steve Olive]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 07:18:32 pm James Jeffery wrote:
> Good Morning!
>
> Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University
> (Hopefully Birmingham) to
> study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday called
> "Web Development"
> and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no seriously, he
> is.
>
> He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in
> "Design" view, and then
> telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers.
>
> I was angry, i instantly replied and questioned his knowledge on HTML and
> asked the age old question:
> "What are tables in HTML used for?", he replied "To lay out web pages and
> for tabled data", i replied with
> "wrong", he laughed and told me he knows what he is talking about.
>
> I seriously want to raise a huge issue at the college, but im not sure how
> to do it. This guy is on 22k+
> a year, and cannot even teach people correctly, he may have been a pro back
> in the days when tables
> were acceptable to lay out web pages, but  in todays world he is a fool.
>
> Its half term now, we have an assignment to complete using Dreamweaver, and
> he said i have to use
> tables, its not a problem, i will do as the assignment requests. I will
> walk the extra mile and create the
> same page without tables, with semantics, with accessibility in mind and
> without the bloated mark-up,
> and then write a essay comparing the both.
>
> What power do i have (if any) to try and get the college to understand they
> cannot use a cowboy to
> teach tomorrows computer experts. Should i use my essay and examples and
> take it to the head of
> the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its definatly a
> problem.
>
> I really am angry and annoyed, you pay money to be taught the correct
> methods. People who don't
> understand are fine, they will believe him, and thats the shocking part
> about it all.
>
> I await some advice.

Hi,

It may not be the tutor's or colege's "fault". Curriculum is written at a 
higher level and then "pushed" down to educators. This process 
involves "industry experts" and takes a number of years. Often this 
curriculum is tied to government funding and as such can't be changed. The 
subject may actually be "design a web site using industry standard web design 
software" which currently the "industry standard" is Dreamweaver.

However, some educators take the easy way out and only teach what they know. 
The subject could simply be "create a web site" and they only know 
Dreamweaver based templates or "starter pages". They haven't been taught any 
other way.

I have seen this first hand, I have taught web design and other IT courses for 
eight years, always meeting learning outcomes, and often pointing out 
that "industry attitudes" have changed. Creating sites the "old way" and 
the "new way" is useful for students who may have to manage old sites that 
can't be upgraded "overnight" for many reasons. Recognising the weaknesses 
and strengths with CSS layout and tabular layout makes students better 
designers, and hopefully a better Internet for all.

Telling a teacher they are "wrong" in front of many students often offends 
them, especially when they don't keep up to date with current trends. 
However, most teachers who adapt and learn the new technologies do so in 
their own time, unpaid and often unrecognised.

Do your site both ways and demonstrate the advantages of CSS layout using 
accessibility tools and ratings. And just think how far in front of the other 
students when applying for jobs saying that you can support old and new 
sites.


-- 
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Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

[Steve Olive]

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:19:26 am Michael Horowitz wrote:
> I can't see why government should be enforcing standards.  Shouldn't
> that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
> government?
>
> Michael Horowitz

Governments enforce and specify standards every day, that is what we elect 
them for. Can you imagine a world where car manufacturers, electricans, 
builders, drivers, etc were not forced to follow standards imposed by the 
government?

-- 
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Steve
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Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA

[Steve Olive]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:31:45 pm Michael Horowitz wrote:
> The answer is very simple.  100% of potential users of a website have IE
> on their computer.  
>
> Michael Horowitz
> Your Computer Consultant
> http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> 561-394-9079
>

Sorry to spoil your fun Michael, but 100% of Apple Mac OS X 10.4 or better 
don't have IE installed at all. There are also 100% of Linux users who don't 
have IE installed by default. Nokia, Motorola, etc don't have IE installed on 
mobile devices. The Asus EeePC, the hottest selling bit of technology at the 
moment, does not have IE installed. IE can't be installed unless the 
custom-built default OS is replaced by Windows XP, which is not a simple 
process and unlikely to be be attempted by regular users.

Cross platform compatibility, with fluid designs, is becoming even more of a 
requirement as people start to use non-Microsoft products.


-- 
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Steve
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Re: [WSG] Web design education

[Steve Olive]

Hi all,

First post - I teach IT and support half of the computer network for  
the Arts & IT section at Bathurst TAFE. We teach Web Design (as well  
as other courses like Digital Media and Client Support) and for the  
last five years have pushed for students to not only design using  
XHTML and CSS but to have assessments meet the standards for the  
different WAI levels. With pressure from teachers and the Head  
Teacher students have access to Internet Explorer, Firefox, Mozilla,  
Opera and Lynx. The last three years have seen hosting on LAMP  
servers so students are required to learn PHP and MySQL.


The modules are the same as those used by all the other TAFE Campuses  
but our teachers are determined to produce students who know the  
standards and can design effective, artistic and meet the standards.  
We have been blocked by the IT Network support staff at higher levels  
but with pressure from staff and students the required applications  
have been installed because it is the teaching that is important.


Keep up the pressure about standards compliance - it is important and  
will save businesses large sums of money (just ask Target USA).


Regards,

Steve

On 14/02/2006, at 10:28 PM, Ric Raftis wrote:

Your comments reminded me that I had neglected to mention something  
else regarding my TAFE experiences.  Perhaps I should mention that  
I am 50 years of age and attended as a mature age student and not  
someone out of high school, however despite all amounts of  
agitating and lobbying, the Bendigo TAFE refused to provide access  
to Firefox or Opera or any other browser apart from IE.  That was  
the only browser that you could use to access the outside world.   
You couldn't install or run your own versions locally, so  
consequently Firefox and the Web Developer Extension were not  
available to test your sites or ensure that code was valid.


Maybe this will change in the future, but it has to come from the  
top.  The thing that I found most amazing was that the IT people in  
charge of the networks had the say over the people delivering the  
courses.  It was actually the network administrators that stymied  
the efforts of the lecturers by denying access to better browsers  
and tools.  You would have thought that IT professionals would be  
far more aware of the benefits of using compliant browsers and be  
implementing these in our educational institutions.


Regards,

Ric

Michael Nelson wrote:


Ric Raftis wrote:

It was interesting reading your post James because it seems that
TAFEs across the country may vary widely despite courses
supposedly being drawn from a national based syllabus and
providing national accreditation.

Related to this, I reckon one of the biggest problems causing a  
lack of standards in Web design education is a lack of  
collaboration. Each facilitator/lecturor is re-inventing the wheel  
with activities and resources largely due to IP restrictions  
within their workplace. In reality, many facilitators just end up  
re-using the same resources that's been used for the last 5 years  
because on their own they don't have time to update both their own  
skills and the resources they use.


The ironic thing is that (nearly) all the best info on Web Design  
topics is being shared freely by professional designers on their  
blogs/sites! ... I mean, with excellent sites like http:// 
webdesignfromscratch.com/ and http://maxdesign.com.au/ published  
by professionals, what is the role of an educator?


My take is that if lecturors and facilitators were able to  
collaboratively create and update flexible learning pathways from  
all the great free stuff out there, we'd be in a better position  
to help the uptake of standards in Web design education.


(Plug) : 'cause of this, I've started setting up a WebDesign  
Wikibook over at:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Web_Design 
 Really it's just ordering and grouping all the great resources  
out there created by you professionals into some sort of learning  
pathway with ideas for activities... Feel free to contribute :)


--
Michael Nelson
http://liveandletlearn.net/



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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

[Steve Olive]

The easiest way to use HTMLTidy is from within the Firefox browser.  
Once installed have a look at the Extensions you can download to help  
with Web Design. I always add the following extensions:


HTML Validator
TAW3 - Test de Accesibilidad Web
View formatted source
View Rendered Source Chart
Web Developer

These are available for Windows. OS X and Linux versions of Firefox.  
The Web Developer and HTMLTidy extensions can review web pages and  
make/suggest the corrections needed for standards compliance.


Regards,

Steve


On 15/02/2006, at 2:59 PM, Zulema wrote:


Samuel/Ted/Jay,

Wow! I will remember all this for the next time, since I do a lot  
of Word-to-HTML converting.


The crazy thing about this one particular Word doc was that it  
wasn't in formatted bulleted lists because it was copy extracted  
from a PDF we got from the client as it seems they didn't have the  
original copy deck anymore I think.


Oh well, live and learn. I'm going to find HTMLTidy (which I had  
but lost on hard drive replace last year) and look up HTML-Kit. I  
do usually copy/paste right into the design view in dreamweaver for  
simple stuff. It really does the trick sometimes, if no one's tried  
it.


The writers here at work only work in Word because of the "Track  
Changes" feature. Makes it easy for everyone to know what's been  
changed.


Thanks again and hugs to all,
Zulema

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

[Steve Olive]

Ian Anderson wrote:Name one for which a popup window is the only valid and, indeed, best solution!There is one very common use that makes great sense - online banks use this to open a new window (often full screen in size) for logging in with no menu bars or toolbars so users don't continue surfing the web in the same window as they conducted their banking. Logging off closes the popup window effectively killing any sessions that are created when navigating around the bank's web site. This makes good sense from a security stand point, and I believe this should be implemented more widely for all electronic financial transactions.SteveOn 15/02/2006, at 11:28 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote:Ian Anderson wrote: Lachlan Hunt wrote: Many users hate popup windows.  There are no valid use-cases or reasons for opening a popup window, don't do it. I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, there are several very good use cases. Name one for which a popup window is the only valid and, indeed, best solution! The primary one is help windows, where instructions can be compared with the items in the main window. A variant of this is T&Cs in forms, where there are serious consequences for the user if they move off the page while in the middle of completing a form - they may lose some or all data. While that is legitimate use-case that comes up quite often on the web, the best solution does not involve popup windows.  In fact, related to the issues I discussed earlier, popup windows can be prevented and you have no idea which users do this.  Thus, while relying on the popup windows to solve this problem may work for 99% of visitors, for the 1% that don't get a new window (incl. those without script and those, like myself, that explicitly disable popups), the problem you're trying to solve is still a problem.This is one solution that doesn't involve popups, that I have actually used myself in a recent project.http://juicystudio.com/article/form-help-without-popups.htmlThat solution works acceptably for 100% of users, regardless of their support for _javascript_, popup windows or any other feature. I think generalisations like "users hate popup windows" are perhaps a little unhelpful. But the statement is 100% accurate.  I, as a user, hate popups.  I know of many others that hate popups too.  I did not say "all users", just "users".  Regardless of how many users that is, are you really willing to annoy them?  Is it not safer to avoid using popup windows, considering that people that don't mind them won't be at all upset when they don't see them; but those that hate them, will be if they do? I am sure a lot of people dislike popup adverts, but to dismiss all use of popups on this basis is clearly to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not just dismissing them on the basis that popup adverts annoy people, I'm dismissing them for serious usability and accessibility concerns, some of which I discussed earlier.  Here's another:Every time you open an unrequested window (assuming my browser wasn't configured to block them completely), that's another window I eventually have to close.  That's annoying, especially when I didn't request it. My mouse has a built in back and forward button and when you open a popup, those buttons don't work - there is no "close popup" button.  It takes longer to move my mouse up to the close button than it does to push the back button with my thumb, which is just wasting my time on a tedious task I shouldn't have even been faced with. That is absolutely no better than using the target attribute.  In fact, for accessibility reasons, it is worse. This is not true, Yes it is.  I even gave an example to explain why.  Just because your usability testing failed to test the scenario I presented, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Also, because the button UI is usually turned off, You're assuming the browser is configured to let you turn off the chrome.  That's another bad assumption, because browsers can be easily configured to always show the chrome that the user wants. there are fewer issues with users starting to surf in the new window and losing their window history, which is a problem using target _blank. So what if they started to surf with the new window!?  Is there some rule against that?  It's a browser window, just like the original,  It clearly doesn't really matter whether they browse with that one or any other.What I really don't understand is that there are so many people who participate in this and various other mailing lists, newsgroups and forums that actively advise against using popups and explain why they hate them, yet you still somehow believe that users are ok with them. Newsflash: we are users too!  Listen to us when we tell you outright that *we hate popup windows!*  Do not use them, find a better solution.-- Lachlan Hunthttp://lachy.id.au/**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/gu

Re: [WSG] Overflow and inheritance problems with a 2-column layout

[Steve Olive]

I would recommend using the XHTML 1.0 Transitional DTD instead of HTML 4.01 - for the simple reason that there is a bit more tolerance for user-friendly options but you are following the XML standards of lower case tags and attributes, all tags being closed, preferably CSS for positioning but tables can be used when you just can't quite get that alignment, etcDo the validation of your web pages - Mozilla Firefox Extensions can help with this - and your pages can be easily updated to a XHTML 1.0 Strict DTD. You could even look at moving to XHTML 1.1 Strict DTD, or whatever the current standard has moved too, when you develop your skills and understanding.The Mozilla Firefox extensions (all under the developer section) I use to help with validation are: 	TAW3	View formatted source	View Rendered Source Chart	Web Developer	HTML Validator (uses HTMLTidy)I recommend these to all the students I teach web design and I even give the students an XHTML template that uses CSS (embedded to keep it all together but that is easily converted to a linked CSS) to break the page up into Header, Horizontal Nav Bar, Left Nav Bar, Body, Right Ads Area and Footer. This template validates as XHTML 1.0 Transitional, Valid CSS and WAI. I can provide a link if you are interested John.SteveOn 18/02/2006, at 11:18 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:The choice of Transitional vs. Strict DTD doesn't affect tolerancetowards CSS - only html. A few less visitor-friendly and/or purelypresentational html elements are not accepted as part of Strict. Thehtml validator will tell you which ones...If you want a _just a little_ bit of tolerance, then just avoid using anxhtml DTD until you know the _whole_ difference between html and xhtml.That may take some time, so just use HTML 4.01 Strict for now, and makesure the source-code is all valid.

Re: [WSG] Overflow and inheritance problems with a 2-column layout

[Steve Olive]

On 18/02/2006, at 4:09 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:Just a question: is it "xhtml 1.0 which may be served as xhtml and/orhtml" or "html with an xhtml DTD, lowercase and slashes, and served ashtml" you are recommending?I have no problems with the former since I use it all the time, but thelatter is what is found on most sites, and that's "no good" and shouldnot be recommended to anyone.The basics of what I have to say on the matter can be found here......and that page is duplicated in several versions - valid and not -working and not - just to clarify what that is all about.The first, of course ;-)There's no such thing as 'XHTML 1.1 Strict', BTW.It is just 'XHTML 1.1', and it doesn't work in IE/win since that browserdoesn't understand what xhtml is all about, and 'XHTML 1.1' shall not beserved as 'html'.Sorry, I went back over my text and changed the 1.0 to 1.1 without taking the strict out :-$The problem with IE is that the XHTML MIME Type is "application/xhtml+xml" which no Microsoft products support properly. Until this is fixed I don't think we can move beyond XHTML 1.0. :-) pony belowI guess it's just a matter of trying to keep up the good ideals and getting more designers on board with XHTML served as XHTML & HTML. I'm actually surprised how many tutorials I see that use HTML 4.01 in computer magazines in 2006. If we can't convince these people to code to XHTML 1.0 Transitional standards we have real problems.Regards,Steve

Re: [WSG] Font Sizes - Best practice

[Steve Olive]

Default font sizes also depend on the cultural background of the  
viewers/users. The default setting on Windows works out to be the  
same size as Times New Roman 10 pt when printed on Letter size paper.  
Australian's prefer default sizes of Times New Roman 12 pt when  
printed on A4 paper. I believe (preparing to be corrected quickly)  
that Europeans sizes are the same as the Australian default sizes.  
European type fonts (Nordic, etc) really need the larger 12 pt  
equivalent.


I agree with Lachlan that designers with 19", 21", 20" Cinema  
Displays, etc do prefer smaller fonts that display well, especially  
on LCD screens at the smaller size but most users prefer font sizes  
to be similar to printed pages they are used too.


This can change slightly with sans serif fonts as they are generally  
slightly larger when printed at the same point size. Sans serif fonts  
can also appear clearer on monitors because of the slightly larger  
than normal leading built into the font.


So if you need to specify and design with font sizes different to the  
defaults I believe that you should make fonts no smaller than the 12  
pt equivalent, unless using sans serif all caps or similar. User that  
need larger fonts or who have smaller monitors will then have no  
problem reading your web sites. I'll let you work out point to pixel  
to em sizes that appear similar.


All this is just a suggestion and I have seen many effective web  
sites use small default text and large default text - it depends on  
the target audience.


Regards,

Steve

On 20/02/2006, at 10:57 PM, Patrick Lauke wrote:


Lachlan Hunt



but lot's of people (mostly designers) who prefer smaller

font-sizes.

It's unfortunate that so many designers prefer small font
sizes.  They
fail to realise that while they may think small fonts may
look good from
a design perspective and are easily readable on their massive,
super-high resolution, 21" monitors, it actually looks really
awful and
is extremely difficult for many users to read.


A far more fundamental group of people (which I already mentioned
in my first email on this discussion) is of course that of
the clients who pay for web design/development. Yes, we as developers
can educate them, but when they see their competitor sites (and
even big sites from the likes of IBM and co.) *all* setting a slightly
smaller default font size, they expect the same on their site as well.
A "yes, but all those other sites are wrong and I do it the right way"
argument won't hold much weight in that situation, I'm afraid...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/

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Re: [WSG] Page veiwing

[Steve Olive]

On 24/02/2006, at 5:29 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote:


SunUp wrote:


I will certainly never go higher.


I wouldn't say never, I expect that the minimum resolution of newer  
operating systems to increase from 800x600 to 1024x768 in the near  
future.  It already went from 640x480 to 800x600 with WinXP (at  
least on devices that support it).


This is even more so when actually working with Windows 2003 Server -  
the dialogue boxes used for configuration do not fit on 800 x 600  
screen sizes. It is very hard to click on the "OK" buttons when they  
are not on the screen ;-) You can't even move the dialogue boxes  
upwards because the tool bar is off the top of the screen.


Reader beware 

IMHO, this debate comes down to user's computer knowledge (and this  
is the teacher's fault not the user's), just because you use higher  
resolutions doesn't mean you have smaller text. There are default  
settings to change the font sizes to Large and Extra Large - in  
Windows, right click on the desktop, select Properties, select  
Appearance, then select the font size for the theme (bottom drop down  
list). (This should be close - sorry, I'm sitting at my G4 Mac with a  
19" screen). This is something that very few people are taught, and I  
have taught computing at TAFE NSW for over seven years now. Everyone  
knows how to change the resolution, but in reality they only need to  
change the text size to have the best of both worlds - more  
information on the screen and smoother, larger text sizes. You can  
also do some very advanced tuning - setting minimum font sizes in  
your browser, e-mail client, etc to make life easier in front of a  
computer screen. And this doesn't even start with the accessibility  
features built into every operating system today.


 ;-)


Steve Olive
Bathurst Computer Solutions
Web: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
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Re: [WSG] Converting the heathen: never again

[Steve Olive]

On 27/02/2006, at 7:39 PM, Absalom Media wrote:


Lachlan Hunt wrote:

What kind of person would rather insult the customer instead of
admitting they have a problem?


A bank ?

I managed to get the standard "filler" text for a bank's "customer
service" department in pointing out some issues on Firefox 1.5. The
problem still isn't fixed either..

Lawrence

--  
Lawrence Meckan


Absalom Media
Mob: (04) 1047 9633
ABN: 49 286 495 792
http://www.absalom.biz
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I had a similar problem with a credit union and their Java powered  
interface - it would only work if you used Windows and the Microsoft  
VM. They did display a rather large Java logo whilst the applet was  
loading. I put in a polite complaint that their internet banking site  
wouldn't work when I was using Safari, Mozilla or Firefox from Mac OS  
X and/or Linux. The reply that I got was a lot less polite about the  
developer saying I should use a proper operating system and that Java  
wasn't designed to work across multiple operating systems or  
browsers. I replied that this was exactly what Java was designed to  
do and forwarded their e-mail to Sun Microsystems - and low and  
behold three weeks later the Java worked on all operating systems and  
browsers.  ;-)


Steve Olive
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Re: [WSG] Display Issue Squash Request (pvdebeitel.com)

[Steve Olive]

On 03/03/2006, at 2:31 AM, Rob Mientjes wrote:


Hello dear all,

<http://www.pvdebeitel.com/>
Yesterday marked the soft-launch of this website for an employees'
community. I am asking for anyone who can spot bugs and anyone who can
help me squash them. I've seen that IE6 drops the subsequent columns
(on the front page), and I'll like help on that as well.

As for accessibility, I'm still working on that, but any advice is  
welcome.


Thanks in advance.

-Rob.
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Following coding errors:

Line 13 - Empty  tags
Line 60 - Unclosed  tag
Line 89 - Unclosed  tag

Problems with "Verhalen Foto's Agenda" text wrapping and dropping  
below nav bar from the top blue nav bar when screen resized/font size  
increased in Firefox 1.5, Opera 8.0.1 & Safari 2.0.3 - but mostly in  
Safari only when applied to extremes. (Tested on


Very clean simple site.


Steve Olive
Bathurst Computer Solutions
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Re: [WSG] testing tips

[Steve Olive]

On 03/03/2006, at 11:09 AM, Anja Kennedy wrote:


Hi

can anybody give me some tips regarding website testing?
what browsers and versions to test in?
which mac OS are required?
and what model mac would be most suitable?

thanks!

Anja



Testing can be done with Firefox & Opera on all platforms - Windows,  
Mac OS X & Linux. You then have some OS specific browsers - Windows =  
IE6, Mac OS X = Safari, Linux = Konqueror and/or Epiphany/Galeon  
which both use the Firefox rendering engine. Safari uses the khtml  
(Konqueror) rendering engine. All of these browsers are free so you  
can install Firefox & Opera and your OS's default browser (IE -  
Safari) which gives you very good compatibility testing quickly.


After downloading Firefox (http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/central/);  
don't forget to use the tools that are available with Firefox  
Extensions - IMHO every web developer should be using the following  
extensions when testing pages (or just normal browsing for that matter):


1. Web Developer - https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php? 
id=60&application=firefox
2. HTML Validator - https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/ 
moreinfo.php?id=249&application=firefox
3. TAW3 - https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php? 
id=1158&application=firefox
4. View Rendered Source Chart - https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/ 
moreinfo.php?id=655&application=firefox
5. View Formatted Source - https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/ 
moreinfo.php?id=697&application=firefox


These are just a few of the developer tools available but make  
validating HTML/XHTML and CSS quick and easy. The accessibility with  
TAW3 takes some getting used to ;-)


Hope this helps!

Steve Olive
Bathurst Computer Solutions
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Re: [WSG] testing tips

[Steve Olive]

On 03/03/2006, at 8:09 PM, Felix Miata wrote:


On 06/03/03 02:27 Steve Olive apparently typed:


Epiphany/Galeon which both use the Firefox rendering engine.


There is no "Firefox" rendering engine. Epiphany,
Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox, Galeon, K-Meleon, Mozilla, Netscape 6.x &  
7.x,
SeaMonkey and others use the Mozilla/5.0 rendering engine, known by  
its

developers and others as the "Gecko" rendering engine. Check your
browser's UA string (about:), e.g. "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686;
en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060124 Firefox/1.5.0.1". Firefox/1.5.0.1  
for

Linux en-US is a Gecko/20060124-based product.

http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/faq.html#What%20is
http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/gecko.html
http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/
--
"Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according
to the law of the Lord."   Psalm 119:11 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

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I was keeping it simple - they all use the same rendering engine. For  
the correct name:


http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/gecko.html


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Re: [WSG] Display Issue Squash Request (pvdebeitel.com)

[Steve Olive]

On 03/03/2006, at 9:44 PM, Rob Mientjes wrote:


How about now? IE okay (I worry about IE a lot, as 95% of the audience
will be using IE. And yes, I will put a pro-Firefox button in the
backend)?


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Much more consistent across the browsers ;-)

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Re: [WSG] Display Issue Squash Request (pvdebeitel.com)

[Steve Olive]

On 04/03/2006, at 10:41 AM, Rob Mientjes wrote:


On 04/03/06, Steve Olive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Much more consistent across the browsers ;-)


Is that good or bad? Your wink makes me wonder.

It does look like font resizing allows for much more change than
before, if you mean that. I played around with it.

-Rob.
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All good.

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Re: [WSG] Ads breaking Compliancy

[Steve Olive]

On 04/03/2006, at 4:12 AM, Brian Cummiskey wrote:

I serve all kinds of various ads, be it adsense, ypn, custom ads,  
and other refferal style ads.


The problem, is that they give you non-standards code, onMouseOver  
status bar changes, etc etc   but you aren't allowed to change  
the code, for its against their TOS.



Anyone have a workaround?

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I was interested in your observation, so i signed up for Google  
Adsense (I'd been thinking about it for a while anyway), and included  
the code into my web site. As my site is generated using phpWebSite I  
actually placed the script into my template file but only allowing it  
to display on the home page. My home page (XHTML Transitional 1.0)  
went from zero errors & warnings to 65 errors - all related to the  
Google Adsense frame generated from their JavaScript code.


I decided to try the Google feedback form and received the following  
encouraging reply:


Thank you for your email. We greatly appreciate your feedback about our
code validating as XHTML 1.0 Transitional. Your comments provide us with
the assistance we need to optimize our program, so please continue to  
give

us feedback in the future.

For additional questions, we suggest you visit our AdSense Support  
site at

https://www.google.com/support/adsense . If you're unable to find an
answer to your question on our site, please feel free to reply to this
email.

Sincerely,

David
The Google AdSense Team
======

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Re: [WSG] tags

[Steve Olive]

On 08/03/2006, at 8:02 PM, Nick Lazar wrote:


Hi there,

Can anyone tell me what the current state of play is with the hr> tags

& XHTML?

They seem to be the answer for a particular design I'm working on,  
and they

don't appear to be marked for deprecation.

Are there any compelling reasons not to use them? (Apart from them  
being

empty tags).

Thanks,

Nick.


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The XHTML tags are , the same as other tags like  that  
don't have a closing tag.



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Re: [WSG] Announcing GrayBit v0.5 Beta

[Steve Olive]

On 11/03/2006, at 8:41 AM, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:


Hello All,

I made all of the suggested changes to the GrayBit [1] page/ 
application --
downgrading to XHTML 1.0 Strict and correcting the font-size issue  
for IE
(bugs passed along and added to the bug list) and I thank you for  
this.
However, since I didn't hear from that many of you, I figured I'd  
continue

this on one more time to solicit responses.

Does an anyone have any additional feedback, good, bad, or otherwise?

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/
http://accessites.org/
http://graybit.com/ <<< [1]


PS. To anyone that missed my original posting, I have included it  
below:


- Original Message -

[...] "We just created a new tool and launched the beta interface  
[1]. It's

a
contrast accessibility tool of sorts, but different. It does some neat
stuff. The best way to understand it is to just try it.

Being it's in beta, we're keen on feedback. You can respond here or  
use our
form [2]. We do know that it doesn't handle PNG transparencies as  
well as it
could (in IE), and it will disable some site's javascripts (but  
still seems
to serve its purpose all the same). It works on sites using CSS  
(hex code

colors, color names, or RGB) but won't work well on older sites using
tags'n'tables. But then again the people who make sites like that  
probably

wouldn't have much interest in this anyway.

The interface is new for me in a couple of ways. It's my first  
"fluid" site
(I usually make fixed-width sites or jump right past fluid to  
elastic). It's

also the first site I made to the XHTML 1.1 DTD. I'm sending it as
application/xhtml+xml, but the browser is still processing the code as
text/html (give me comments on this, please). It's also my first  
PHP-only

site. I usually make PHP sites, but they have some PHP and some static
mark-up. These pages are pure PHP, dynamic. First thing on the page  
is and the last thing is ?>. Nary a break in between. You should find  
it very
accessible and very usable. I took three days on this interface  
crossing my

"t"s and dotting my "i"s." [...]

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Is the submission form supposed to work? On both Firefox 1.5.0.1 and  
Safari 2.0.3 on Mac OS X 10.4.5 I end up with a blank screen when  
submitting my web site (dynamic using phpWebSite).


The graybit.com page presented equally well in both Firefox and  
Safari - no differences or errors I could detect.


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Re: [WSG] Non-interactive Web display on wall screen?

[Steve Olive]

On 13/03/2006, at 9:03 AM, Tom Worthington wrote:

Has anyone advice to give on displaying web content on a non- 
interactive wall screen?


Opera has a kiosk mode:

http://www.opera.com/support/mastering/kiosk/

It can run this mode on Windows, Linux & OS X so even an older PC  
running Linux with just a lightweight windows manager would be  
suitable to run this. As was suggested elsewhere setting each page to  
 refresh and load the next page in the sequence would be the  
simplest way to do this.



Steve Olive
Bathurst Computer Solutions
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Web: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
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Re: [WSG] Certified Usable

[Steve Olive]

On 20/03/2006, at 2:06 PM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:

Sydney-based Usability company PTG has made the claim that they can  
certify

the usability of their websites:

http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3005.asp

"User-friendly", that's something different. And in my opinion  
nobody can
guarantee the user-friendlyness of a website to all users in the  
world.


Sorry for troll response/rant

I think it is just a marketing ploy in association with http:// 
www.aimia.com.au trying to make the AIMIA sound official and  
important - sorry if you think it is.


I quickly validated their page with HTML Tidy (Firefox extension) and  
the page about "Certified Usable" has 2 errors and 44 warnings for "DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">" (after  
getting past the 100 odd empty lines) with upper and lower case tags.  
Their page is generated from the "Shado CMS built by Straker  
Interactive Ltd" so I assume getting real WAI validation would be  
nearly impossible for their own web site.


Their link from this page "http://www.ptg-global.com/products/get-it- 
right-the-first-time/get-it-right-the-first-time_home.cfm" to the  
"Certified Usable" goes to the "XPEyetrack" page.


If this is the most useable page from AIMIA members I wouldn't want  
them designing web pages for me.


Steve Olive
Bathurst Computer Solutions
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Re: [WSG] Site Check - Streaming Media

[Steve Olive]

On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:19:46 pm Hassan Schroeder wrote:
> Parker, Simi (DPS) wrote:
> > I am investigating some potential issues with our live broadcasting
> > service and if you use an O/S / browser / media player configuration
> > other than Windows / Internet Explorer / Windows Media player, I would
> > really appreciate your feedback and/or assistance. I would particularly
> > welcome feedback from Macintosh and Linux users.
>
> Unsurprisingly, I get a black screen with '(no video)' message in
> the popup on SuSE 10 Linux/Firefox; Konqueror gives me an alert:
>No plugin found for 'Microsoft Media'.
>Do you want to download one from www.microsoft.com?
>
> Total no-go.
>
> HTH!

I get nothing displayed but the file name starting to downlaod/stream in the 
MPlayer plugin for Firefox 2.0.0.3. This is using Ubuntu 7.04 with the 
w32codec package installed, so the file format is the problem on Linux.

-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: 0407 224 251
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ask a lot of skeptical questions to 
get at the real truth, not just what
you're told it is."
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Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em

[Steve Olive]

There is one issue that will always cause conjecture and arguments with font 
sizes and hasn't been raised. Australian, New Zealand, UK and European 
default printed font size when word processing is 12 pt Times New Roman 
whilst the US uses 10 pt Times New Roman, so they are used to smaller text 
with more information crammed into each page.

This is a personal opinion of the font sizes displayed on a 19" 1280 x 1024 @ 
96 PPI LCD monitor in relation to the default printed font size. My eyes are 
approximately 65 cm from the screen and I do wear glasses for mild myopia 
(short sightedness).

On Mon, 28 May 2007 04:43:23 pm Philip Kiff wrote:
> 4. Sample Sites
> --
>
> Here are a list of some example sites that apply a percentage to their body
> font-size.  These sites were selected because of their popularity, or their
> interest in web accessibility and CSS design issues.
>
> Digg
> http://www.digg.com/
> body {font: 83%/1.4}
Only just acceptable size due to other elements being scaled smaller.
>
> Wired
> http://www.wired.com/
> body {font-size:62.5%;}
The body font is OK but the menus are way too small.
>
> Salon
> http://www.salon.com/
> body {font-size: 70%;}
The body font was OK but other sections like menus and "Current Opinion" 
sections are smaller.
>
> Microsoft
> http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/default.aspx
> body {font-size: 70%; }
Too small like many US based web sites.
>
> BBC
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/d/
> body {font-size: 62.5%}
Too smal but lots of "white" space around all text elements makes it easier to 
read. 
>
> Web Standards Project
> http://www.webstandards.org/
> body {font: 72%/160%}
Again too small.
>
> Clagnut
> http://clagnut.com/
> body {font-size:81.25%;}
> html>body {font-size:13px;}
The main content was OK but I have a large monitor. 17" LCD at 1280 x 1024 was 
still OK.
>
> Jim Thatcher
> http://jimthatcher.com/
> body {font-size: 86%;}
Not too bad, but sideboxes had smaller text again.
>
> Juicy Studio
> http://juicystudio.com/
> body {font-size: 95%;}
Easy to read even though only half my screen was used - large yellow slab down 
the right half of the screen.
>
> The Man in Blue
> http://themaninblue.com/
> body {font-size: 80%;}
Main content just OK but many sections are much smaller.
>
> CSS Beauty
> http://www.cssbeauty.com/
> body {font: 76%}
Too small and light blue & light green on white has contrast problems.
>
> End of email.
>
> Phil.
>

So, how do you solve this issue?

You can't - that's what makes us "web designers". We all have preferences for 
font sizes, colours, screen layout and more; then we have to deal with a 
clients' preconceived ideas on what THEIR web site should look like.

However we need to be aware that many people using the Internet won't have 19" 
LCD, 21" LCD, 20" widescreens, 24" widescreens or 30" widescreens or dual 
monitor setups. We need to make sure that our designs look OK on 17" CRT 
monitors at 1024 x 768 and 800 x 600 (hopefully it will still look OK on a 
15" CRT monitor too if it passes these tests).

Then we need to consider how much should a page zoom in before breaking. This 
really means using proportional measurements and not pixels, mostly due to 
IEs well documented problems, but also for containers.

The hard part is to not assume that bigger is always better. I have had a 
vision impaired student who needed all text at 18 pt Times New Roman - any 
larger and he could not see all of the individual letters, any smaller and it 
got too hard to read.

Just my $0.02 worth - the most important point is that we are aware of the 
issues, even if we can't agree on the "perfect solution".


-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ask a lot of skeptical questions to 
get at the real truth, not just what
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Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?

[Steve Olive]

On Tue, 29 May 2007 01:51:16 am Kevin Ross wrote:
>
> Can anyone lend a hand?  Thanks very much...
>
> Regards,
> Kevin.
>
>

Have you tried looking at http://www.opensourcecms.com/? They have working 
installations of all Open Source CMS that you can try as user and 
administrator. Sit down with the client and try each one out.


-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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"If you read the same things as others
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bit more independent and radical and
consider intelligence the ability to
think about matters on your own and
ask a lot of skeptical questions to 
get at the real truth, not just what
you're told it is."
Apple's Inventor - Steve Wozniak 2006
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Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions

[Steve Olive]

On Tue, 29 May 2007 06:20:05 am Mark Hedley wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> I am currently looking for a cost-effective (preferably opensource)
> solution to run our companies UK based web site.
>

Have you looked at the e-Commerce section at http://www.opensourcecms.com?

-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: 0407 224 251
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*
"If you read the same things as others
and say the same things they say, then
you're perceived as intelligent. I'm a
bit more independent and radical and
consider intelligence the ability to
think about matters on your own and
ask a lot of skeptical questions to 
get at the real truth, not just what
you're told it is."
Apple's Inventor - Steve Wozniak 2006
*


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