Re: [WSG] possible to make absolute position moves down with fontsize resize?
Add some padding at the bottom of the content with the same size as the absolutely positioned element. That should prevent the preseeding content to not overlap. You might have to do some position and size adjustments to make it all fit again after you add the padding. -- From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] possible to make absolute position moves down with fontsize resize? Lately I have coded many templates that clients wanted an element that aligns horizontally and has it stayed at the bottom of a content block. The only way I could think is using absolute position, but it creates an overlapping problem with font size resize. I am curious if there is a technique that I am totally unaware of (already googled and visited the archive of css-d). example ($xx/month): http://lotusseedsdesign.com/s/raz_compare_plans.html Thank you! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
If you do content negotiation to send html/text and XHTML 1.0 to IE and application/xhtml+xml XHTML to anyone else then you're effectivly using XHTML 1.0 html/text as you'd never be able to make use of the modular XML nature of XHTML 1.1. - Original Message - From: Nikita The Spider The Spider [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now? On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Simon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 Of the doctypes that my validator Nikita saw in one sample period, just slightly over 2% were XHTML 1.1. It's worth noting that most, if not all, were sent with the wrong media type. http://NikitaTheSpider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#doctypes and does it provide any benefits? Well, compared to what? HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Transitional or XHTML 1.0 Strict? Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. That implies that the server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content unless you're willing to refuse IE users. Does this sound appealing yet? Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly, even ignoring the cost of generating both two versions of one's content. Given the extra work required to support XHTML 1.1, there would have to be some pretty darn compelling reasons to use it, and those reasons just aren't there for most people. There's quite enough people who question the use of XHTML 1.0 over HTML (I'm one of them), let alone XHTML 1.1. About XHTML and media types: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary HTH -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
You can still do that with XHTML 1.0 sent as html/text. I've done that several times when I've made desktop gadgets to extract data from my site. The parsers doesn't care if the page is sent as html/text instead of xml/text. I don't see any point of using XHTML 1.1 unless you use it's modular nature. - Original Message - From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now? HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ Simon wrote: Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 and does it provide any benefits? The benefits are on the content production side. If you author your content in XHTML, you can parse it with an off-the-shelf XML parser and make modifications to your content en-masse. This gives you control over your content. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com XStandard XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG Editor Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-12 8:36 PM On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Simon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 Of the doctypes that my validator Nikita saw in one sample period, just slightly over 2% were XHTML 1.1. It's worth noting that most, if not all, were sent with the wrong media type. http://NikitaTheSpider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#doctypes and does it provide any benefits? Well, compared to what? HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Transitional or XHTML 1.0 Strict? Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. That implies that the server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content unless you're willing to refuse IE users. Does this sound appealing yet? Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly, even ignoring the cost of generating both two versions of one's content. Given the extra work required to support XHTML 1.1, there would have to be some pretty darn compelling reasons to use it, and those reasons just aren't there for most people. There's quite enough people who question the use of XHTML 1.0 over HTML (I'm one of them), let alone XHTML 1.1. About XHTML and media types: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary HTH *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Reset the styles on a submit button with CSS
Or, instead of using a class to reset the layout to original, why not set a class for the elements you actually are styling? When I use use INPUT elements I allways add a class related to what kind of input element it is and only refer to the class in the CSS. Recently I've started to use attribute selectors instead as it'll simply fall back to default UI elements if the UA doesn't support it. I'm not sure if you will be able to reset a form element to use the OS UI once you've assigned. -Thom From: Matthew Pennell Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:00 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Reset the styles on a submit button with CSS On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My issue is that the submit buttons now have this styling also in certain browsers. I'd like to give them a class and set them back to their original look, but background:none; doesn't work. Is there a way of doing this does anyone know? Not quite what you asked, but have you considered using the button element for your submit button instead of an input? Removes this kind of annoyance. -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict
Could be technical if you want to allow your pages to be parsed with XML parsers. I've done that in the past because I made some software to fetch data from my site. -Thom From: Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict On Apr 30, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Joseph Taylor wrote: stick with HTML 4.01 Strict while the work is completed on (X)HTML5 IMHO (and given the depth and breadth of the replies to my original post I'm feeling very humble right now, as well as extremely grateful to you all) - I do think that given the current state of the art this is the best approach, at least for me. But, indeed, let's not get into XHTML vs. HTML - I understand and respect the XHTML proponents' viewpoint, but in the end isn't it a choice based on personal taste? Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I've not done any full Flash websites. For reasons of accessibility and the loss of browser navigational tools. But I have been playing with an idea; use XHTML as data source for the site instead of plain XML. That way you build a site with all the accessibility and features of HTML with Flash as a layer on top. - Original Message - From: Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites I've used flash sites that have been poorly done - confusing interfaces etc. Awful Experience. I've used flash sites that have been built well. Excellent experience. Accessible? Not really, but... If you're providing a fall-back HTML version you're covered. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael Persson wrote: The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
If there isn't any doctype you won't have to worry. IE8 will use the old render engines for that. -- From: Jens-Uwe Korff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare Hi Thom, finally someone who addressed my original question ;-) We'd tested a few sites, build over the last 18...24 months, and I'm not sure about how much IE-only styles there are. I guess the doctype is mainly XHTML Transitional if at all. I hope once IE8 is out of beta we'll have more joy... Cheers, Jens -Original Message- My own experience was that IE8 was rendering surprisingly well. I use conditional comments to fix IE issues, however they where targeting IE lte 7 so IE8 wasn't getting any fixes. But it didn't need to. That's with strict XHTML doctype. Haven't tried any other. -Thom The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I for one find it very annoying when sites force open a new window. If I want to navigate a link I open the link up in a new tab. Forcing the link to open up in a new window doesn't make me stay on the site, it just makes me click extra to close the page that I navigated from. If a site constantly pops open windows I often just leave it. I argue that it's best to leave the user to control these things as people have very different habbits. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Sure, there are cases where you would wish to open a new window. But I wouldn't compare a website and a web application, or desktop application. For websites I don't see the need to pop up windows left and right because the links lead off-site. This is something that's often done with the intent of keeping the user on the site. However, that won't help if the user is really done at that site, just creates extra steps for the user to do so. Frames and popup windows is fine features to use in web based applications. I'll agree to that. I've used it when making some HTA applications myself. But as I said, it's a different fish from websites. -Thom - Original Message - From: Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Thomas Thomassen wrote: Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. Making assumptions about users' needs and behavior is your job as a designer/developer. Which is not to say everyone makes the best possible decisions. :-) Not everything built with (X)HTML is a brochureware site; people build browser-based applications, and sometimes even full-fledged frame use makes sense (e.g. JavaDoc, for one). As far as opening windows -- click on the Help menu item in your browser or another desktop application right now, and tell me if the help screen takes over your entire application window space, or, just possibly, *opens a new window*. Wow. Maybe this *is* an acceptable behavior *for some circumstances*. Horses for courses... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
As for PDFs I find it ok that they open in a new window. As a personal preferance. But for regular links I feel that it's best leaving them alone. I've seen many novice computer users get confused when a link opens in a new window as they don't allways realise they're now navigating in a new window. When they want to navigate back to where they where they find that the back button suddenly doesn't work and they fumble trying to find their way back. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I see your point, Thom. The exception, IMO, is when you link to a PDF .. the Acrobat Reader takes over the window and the only way to go back in the same window is to use the back button in the browser .. not very good practice, IMO. Most people would just close the reader thinking they would be back on the page they left .. and they're not. I have seen many questions from people who have done just this and lost the place they wanted to be. In other cases, I do see your point that users want to control those things .. although I wonder how many people would know how to do that. Not everyone who uses the internet is all that websavvy. Nancy - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I for one find it very annoying when sites force open a new window. If I want to navigate a link I open the link up in a new tab. Forcing the link to open up in a new window doesn't make me stay on the site, it just makes me click extra to close the page that I navigated from. If a site constantly pops open windows I often just leave it. I argue that it's best to leave the user to control these things as people have very different habbits. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantic markup for a person's name or business name
Semantic markup for a person's name or business nameThe ADDRESS element is intended to provide contact information for the author of the HTML document, not any address. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6 -Thom - Original Message - From: Cole Kuryakin To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:56 AM Subject: [WSG] Semantic markup for a person's name or business name Hello All - I've been reading a book by Andy Clarke which has a few pages related to micro-formats. He uses the example of marking up an address tag similar to the below using classes (note that br's are mine for formatting): address span class=street101 Some Street, /span span class=subdivisionSome Sub division/spanbr / span class=cityAlameda, /span span class=stateCalifornia, /span span class=postal94501/spanbr / span class=countryUnited States of America/span /address But. what if you want to include a person's name (or a business name) ABOVE the address tag? The only thing that comes immediately to mind would be citeJohn Smith/cite but that doesn't seem correct. Or, should one use an additional span above the address block like this: span class=contactNameJohn Smith/span? So the whole thing might look like this: span class=contactNameJohn Smith/span address span class=street101 Some Street, /span span class=subdivisionSome Sub division/spanbr / span class=cityAlameda, /span span class=stateCalifornia, /span span class=postal94501/spanbr / span class=countryUnited States of America/span /address Interested in all opinions as well as if there is any current standard which addresses this particular issue. Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
I don't find classes to have the semantic value as the tags have. There is
no where defined what the semanic value of classes are. Even though the
classes would share the same name as a tag I don't see it as having the same
semantic value.
- Original Message -
From: Kyle Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:45 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
Using del and ins to track changes in a document, is making excellent
use of semantic markup. However markup should only be used to describe
content, not other markup - classes and IDs are used to describe other
markup.
CSS:
del, .del {
display: none;
/* un-comment to use */
/* text-decoration: line-through; */
}
Then on your XHTML
ul
liItem 1/li
li class='del'Item 2/li
liItem 3/li
/ul
Kyle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2008 13:47
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
Hi,
RE:
When I hid the del using display: hidden; the list would render
something like this
I can't say I've ever felt the need to use these tags, but isn't hiding
the content supposed to be the job of the browser/user agent - rather than
you using CSS.
On Sun, March 23, 2008 12:43 pm, Thomas Thomassen wrote:
I was working on some examples for the use of del and ins.
http://www.thomthom.net/blog/2008/03/document-history-viewer-making-use-of-d
el-and-ins/
As I was working on this I wanted to mark up a list where items had been
added and removed. That's when I realised that you can't wrap up li dt
or dd in del or ins elements because ul, ol and dl only allows
list items as their direct child.
The del and ins then have to be wrapped inside the list item.
ul
liItem 1/li
lidelItem 2/del/li
liItem 3/li
/ul
When I hid the del using display: hidden; the list would render
something like this:
* Item 1
*
* Item 3
Because I could wrap up the entire list item, the bullet point would still
remain.
To me it appears illogical to not wrap the del or ins around the list
items when you add and remove items to the list. I'm guessing it's a case
where every scenario wasn't accounted for when the specifications was
written. (Yes, I know that I could add an extra class to the list item
that I wanted to hide, but it's not the point. It shouldn't be necessary.)
However, when this scenario presents itself I see it as fine to break the
specification and mark it up like this:
ul
liItem 1/li
delliItem 2/li/del
liItem 3/li
/ul
This seem to render exactly as I expect it to do in every browser I've
tested.
* Item 1
* Item 3
I posted a comment about it in the W3C public HTML discussion group,
hoping it'd be picked up and amend HTML5's specification to allow this.
However, there's yet been any response. Is there any other place I could
air this issue in hope of it getting heards by the authors of the next
HTML specs?
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
You mean removing by that I used display: none; to hide it? That was for the particular case I worked on where I used a javascript to view the document at various versions. The way I see if, if I have a document where I mark up changes and one of them changes is an item in a list, I find it natrual to mark up the entire list item, including the li. - Original Message - From: Thierry Koblentz To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 5:55 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:44 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists I was working on some examples for the use of del and ins. http://www.thomthom.net/blog/2008/03/document-history-viewer-making-use-of-del-and-ins/ As I was working on this I wanted to mark up a list where items had been added and removed. That's when I realised that you can't wrap up li dt or dd in del or ins elements because ul, ol and dl only allows list items as their direct child. The del and ins then have to be wrapped inside the list item. ul liItem 1/li lidelItem 2/del/li liItem 3/li /ul When I hid the del using display: hidden; the list would render something like this: * Item 1 * * Item 3 Because I could wrap up the entire list item, the bullet point would still remain. To me it appears illogical to not wrap the del or ins around the list items when you add and remove items to the list. I'm guessing it's a case where every scenario wasn't accounted for when the specifications was written. (Yes, I know that I could add an extra class to the list item that I wanted to hide, but it's not the point. It shouldn't be necessary.) However, when this scenario presents itself I see it as fine to break the specification and mark it up like this: ul liItem 1/li delliItem 2/li/del liItem 3/li /ul This seem to render exactly as I expect it to do in every browser I've tested. * Item 1 * Item 3 I posted a comment about it in the W3C public HTML discussion group, hoping it'd be picked up and amend HTML5's specification to allow this. However, there's yet been any response. Is there any other place I could air this issue in hope of it getting heards by the authors of the next HTML specs? I don't see a problem with the specs [1]. These elements are supposed to be used to give information about changes; imho, removing an element does not convey that type of information. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.4 -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
But the whole purpose was to use the semantic value of the del to tell
that the listitem was at some point removed. Classes doesn't provide that. I
don't see how grouping comes into this.
From the W3C spec:
These two elements are unusual for HTML in that they may serve as either
block-level or inline elements (but not both). They may contain one or more
words within a paragraph or contain one or more block-level elements such as
paragraphs, lists and tables.
-Thom
- Original Message -
From: Kyle Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
Regardless,
Tags are there to markup content, whereas classes are used to group together
tags or markup.
Kyle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen
Sent: 25 March 2008 16:43
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
I don't find classes to have the semantic value as the tags have. There is
no where defined what the semanic value of classes are. Even though the
classes would share the same name as a tag I don't see it as having the same
semantic value.
- Original Message -
From: Kyle Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:45 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
Using del and ins to track changes in a document, is making excellent
use of semantic markup. However markup should only be used to describe
content, not other markup - classes and IDs are used to describe other
markup.
CSS:
del, .del {
display: none;
/* un-comment to use */
/* text-decoration: line-through; */
}
Then on your XHTML
ul
liItem 1/li
li class='del'Item 2/li
liItem 3/li
/ul
Kyle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2008 13:47
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
Hi,
RE:
When I hid the del using display: hidden; the list would render
something like this
I can't say I've ever felt the need to use these tags, but isn't hiding
the content supposed to be the job of the browser/user agent - rather than
you using CSS.
On Sun, March 23, 2008 12:43 pm, Thomas Thomassen wrote:
I was working on some examples for the use of del and ins.
http://www.thomthom.net/blog/2008/03/document-history-viewer-making-use-of-d
el-and-ins/
As I was working on this I wanted to mark up a list where items had been
added and removed. That's when I realised that you can't wrap up li dt
or dd in del or ins elements because ul, ol and dl only allows
list items as their direct child.
The del and ins then have to be wrapped inside the list item.
ul
liItem 1/li
lidelItem 2/del/li
liItem 3/li
/ul
When I hid the del using display: hidden; the list would render
something like this:
* Item 1
*
* Item 3
Because I could wrap up the entire list item, the bullet point would still
remain.
To me it appears illogical to not wrap the del or ins around the list
items when you add and remove items to the list. I'm guessing it's a case
where every scenario wasn't accounted for when the specifications was
written. (Yes, I know that I could add an extra class to the list item
that I wanted to hide, but it's not the point. It shouldn't be necessary.)
However, when this scenario presents itself I see it as fine to break the
specification and mark it up like this:
ul
liItem 1/li
delliItem 2/li/del
liItem 3/li
/ul
This seem to render exactly as I expect it to do in every browser I've
tested.
* Item 1
* Item 3
I posted a comment about it in the W3C public HTML discussion group,
hoping it'd be picked up and amend HTML5's specification to allow this.
However, there's yet been any response. Is there any other place I could
air this issue in hope of it getting heards by the authors of the next
HTML specs?
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
For instance, you have a checklist of things to do. It could be a list of bugs in a software you make. You have the list availible on your site so the users of the software can see the list of issues you are working on. As you fix bugs you remove them from the list. You mark up the list item describing the bug with del to indicate that the bugs has been removed from the list. It's still visible to the users as by default browsers will render content within a del with a strikethrough. Another example would can be seen here: http://thomthom.net/storage/markup/html/dochistory/subversion.html It's a sample script where you can go back and view a previous version of the code. I probably confused people in my initial post when I talked about how I came across it and that in that particular case I used display: none; to hide it. The main intent with the post was the general concept of marking up list items as being removed, edited. I didn't mean that I wanted to hide it from the viewer, but rather indicate the the item was for instance obsolete, as in the example of the bug list. Hope this makes it clearer. -Thom - Original Message - From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:57 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists You mean removing by that I used display: none; to hide it? That was for the particular case I worked on where I used a javascript to view the document at various versions. The way I see if, if I have a document where I mark up changes and one of them changes is an item in a list, I find it natrual to mark up the entire list item, including the li. If you remove the List Item from the document (the way you're trying to), what info does that convey and to *whom*? I'm sorry, but I can't see the logic behind what you're trying to do. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists
Thanks. Got a link to where I can follow that incase there's response? I'm wondering if I've muddled up my explanation of the problem, by dragging in how I discovered and such. Perhaps I should have taken some more time explaining it more clearly? In general I feel I've been confusing people. -Thom - Original Message - From: Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists Thomas Thomassen skrev: I posted a comment about it in the W3C public HTML discussion group, hoping it'd be picked up and amend HTML5's specification to allow this. However, there's yet been any response. Is there any other place I could air this issue in hope of it getting heards by the authors of the next HTML specs? I have sent a copy of your original message to the WHATWG list. Let's see if they are more alert. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Apply ALT tag to background image?
You can only apply the alt attribute to img elements. If you need to provide an alt attribute to a CSS background image then the background image should instead be an img element. Use the img element for images related to the content and keep all images related to layout in your CSS. - Original Message - From: Kristine Cummins To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:22 PM Subject: [WSG] Apply ALT tag to background image? I've got a background graphic designated in my style sheet - is there a way to apply an alt and/or title tag to that or would I need to just not make it a background image? My intuition is the latter - but just if there is a slight chance.. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fieldsets outside of forms. Was: Safari 3.1 and webkit-border-radius
In addition to using the dictionary, it's worth looking up how W3C uses the terms in relationship with the specs. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt While MUST and MUST NOT would be more handy, reality is grey sometimes and does depend on the interpretation of the author. The biggest problem however is that most authors never read the specs. - Original Message - From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Fieldsets outside of forms. Was: Safari 3.1 and webkit-border-radius Perhaps it will help the web standards if W3C to be more authoritative and dictatorial? MUST NOT, MUST, ABSOLUTELY NOT, ILLEGAL TO USE, NOT ALLOWED to replace these ambiguous MAY NOT, SHOULD, SHOULD NOT. This way, it makes no wrong suggestion to people who are not English tongue and who needs to depend on English dictionary to understand the spec - I am speaking of me :-) tee Keryx's point of view seems to be dominant, I fear. Even the teacher at my web design class seems to think that using EMs to style citations is valid. Yet she generally encourages web standards... :( Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] INS and DEL in lists
I was working on some examples for the use of del and ins. http://www.thomthom.net/blog/2008/03/document-history-viewer-making-use-of-del-and-ins/ As I was working on this I wanted to mark up a list where items had been added and removed. That's when I realised that you can't wrap up li dt or dd in del or ins elements because ul, ol and dl only allows list items as their direct child. The del and ins then have to be wrapped inside the list item. ul liItem 1/li lidelItem 2/del/li liItem 3/li /ul When I hid the del using display: hidden; the list would render something like this: * Item 1 * * Item 3 Because I could wrap up the entire list item, the bullet point would still remain. To me it appears illogical to not wrap the del or ins around the list items when you add and remove items to the list. I'm guessing it's a case where every scenario wasn't accounted for when the specifications was written. (Yes, I know that I could add an extra class to the list item that I wanted to hide, but it's not the point. It shouldn't be necessary.) However, when this scenario presents itself I see it as fine to break the specification and mark it up like this: ul liItem 1/li delliItem 2/li/del liItem 3/li /ul This seem to render exactly as I expect it to do in every browser I've tested. * Item 1 * Item 3 I posted a comment about it in the W3C public HTML discussion group, hoping it'd be picked up and amend HTML5's specification to allow this. However, there's yet been any response. Is there any other place I could air this issue in hope of it getting heards by the authors of the next HTML specs? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 8 and grey
Because they are defined by w3c what they should map to. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#color-units - Original Message - From: Adam Martin To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] IE 8 and grey Are you talking from a css point of view? I would advocate not using words - what happens if a future browser decides that grey should be #6; where previously it was #3; (just examples). Your design is suddenly not going to look as you intended. My 2c. Adam On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick question. I have not got IE 8 beta 1 myself... Does it understand grey, spelled with an e - as it should be ;-) Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
Google cache: http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:hJvRsZGb7kUJ:www.geocities.com/hollywood/makeup/4303/t2script.txt+http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/makeup/4303/t2script.txthl=enct=clnkcd=1gl=noclient=firefox-a - Original Message - From: Andrew Freedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news russ - maxdesign provided the following information on 7/03/2008 7:43 AM: I have detailed files: http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/makeup/4303/t2script.txt :) Russ Obviously not ;) Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
I got a spare computer to test this on. Thanks for the heads up about the availiblity of the beta. - Original Message - From: aleagi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news Yeah, I'm afraid to install it and kick IE6 and 7 out of my box! Anyone with the guts to do it? @:D Regards. Aleagi . On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody installed the IE8beta1 yet? http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/Install.htm Wondering if this nukes IE7 and embeds itself into Windows, or if it can run standalone... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
IE8 does provide a mode switch to IE7. There's a new button next to the home button. Though I'm not surpriced it nuked your IE6 installation. I gave it a go and tried some of my testcases where I make heavy use of selectors and other cutting edge CSS features. Can't say I was impressed. I had actually hoped for more. I thought they'd pushed it quite a bit further, but it's looking pretty much like IE7, except that there seems to be less quirks. One thing I noticed was some oddness with :hover behaviour quite a few times. And my unordered list with square bullets now displays as quetsionmakrs with a border around it. - Original Message - From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news I decided to be the brave and die first IE's victim :-) Very Bad! my IE 6 is gone, IE 7 standalone is working. The installation took over 15 minutes. How do they expect we test the browser by disable the the previous version(s) ?? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** tee On Mar 5, 2008, at 11:32 AM, aleagi wrote: Yeah, I'm afraid to install it and kick IE6 and 7 out of my box! Anyone with the guts to do it? @:D Regards. Aleagi . On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody installed the IE8beta1 yet? http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/Install.htm Wondering if this nukes IE7 and embeds itself into Windows, or if it can run standalone... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
p.s. the testcase I'm working on is here: http://thomthom.net/storage/markup/html/sitenav/ (NOTE: very rough draft!) but if you use it to compare IE8 with Firefox2/3, Opera 9 and Safari 3 you see that IE8 still got a long way to go. :( - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news IE8 does provide a mode switch to IE7. There's a new button next to the home button. Though I'm not surpriced it nuked your IE6 installation. I gave it a go and tried some of my testcases where I make heavy use of selectors and other cutting edge CSS features. Can't say I was impressed. I had actually hoped for more. I thought they'd pushed it quite a bit further, but it's looking pretty much like IE7, except that there seems to be less quirks. One thing I noticed was some oddness with :hover behaviour quite a few times. And my unordered list with square bullets now displays as quetsionmakrs with a border around it. - Original Message - From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news I decided to be the brave and die first IE's victim :-) Very Bad! my IE 6 is gone, IE 7 standalone is working. The installation took over 15 minutes. How do they expect we test the browser by disable the the previous version(s) ?? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** tee On Mar 5, 2008, at 11:32 AM, aleagi wrote: Yeah, I'm afraid to install it and kick IE6 and 7 out of my box! Anyone with the guts to do it? @:D Regards. Aleagi . On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody installed the IE8beta1 yet? http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/Install.htm Wondering if this nukes IE7 and embeds itself into Windows, or if it can run standalone... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
Some of the oddness can use experienced here:
http://thomthom.net/storage/markup/html/sitenav/
In IE8 the drop down menu of the red nav bar will hide when the cursor moves
over the menu where the headers are below.
Also, the table of content will not drop down.
In my CSS code for the TOC I have
#toc:hover,
#toc:target
{
height: auto;
}
however, if I remove #toc:target and only have
#toc:hover
{
height: auto;
}
Then it works fine.
And you will also see that the tr:hover activates differently from other
browsers.
- Original Message -
From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news
Hi Thomas,
One thing I noticed was some oddness with :hover behaviour
I remember when IE7 came out (RC1 I think) I had to add [1] a:hover {} to
the head of my documents else it didn't work at all. I added it within my
@import statement with empty braces, like this:
style type=text/css media=screen
@import mystylesheet.css; a:hover { }
/style
I really have top wonder if this is more of the same. What oddness are
you seeing?
I can't say I'll be installing it too soon. I did that with 7 and it just
led to a bunch of changes (bug fixes) that I didn't need to make by the
time RC2 came out.
Cheers.
Mike
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Links are not hot in ie8
Yup, I'm seeing odd :hover behaviour as well in some of my own testcases. Launch them bug reports at them. https://connect.microsoft.com/IE Let make sure MS is told about the problems now early. If not we'll be stuck with this for sure afterwards. - Original Message - From: Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Links are not hot in ie8 Thierry Koblentz wrote: I think it's going to be a fun ride... I really don't think it's time to saddle up yet :-) http://tjkdesign.com/test/ie8/links.asp So, they still have those stacking-bugs to sort out. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
True. IE is more than just a browser. It's a development platform. Intranet systems, HTA applications etc. Some of them might be used in mission critial systems where it's less than ideal to update the HTML and CSS every time IE updates it rendering engine so locking them self to a spesific version is very handy for them. There are still systems using DOS software for their operation because porting it to a new system would cause a great risk of bugs. - Original Message - From: John Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:34 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news How can you disagree with a capability? Isn't it a feature to be used if you so choose? For intranets etc that you can force this behaviour can actually be a good thing, but if you don't like it, you don't have to use it! Microsoft has certainly responded here, but in my opinion we shouldn't be criticising the for offering optional extras. On 04/03/2008, at 3:23 PM, Tate Johnson wrote: Microsoft is actually responding to their customers (and the community). Wow, I'm impressed. While I still disagree with the capability to render in IE7 Strict Mode, at least this is no longer the default in IE8. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] multiple css style sheets
You specify different stylesheets for different medias. The most common ones are to target handhelds, print and screenreaders. The user-agent will use the MEDIA attribute to pick the correct stylesheet. It is also possible to provide multiple stylesheets which the user can select from. Though IE doesn't have any UI for this. These are provided by adding 'alternate' to the REL property. ( rel=alternate stylesheet ) - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 5:55 PM Subject: [WSG] multiple css style sheets Just inherited a site and saw pages with multiple style sheets. Is there a reason for that and how does the browser determine what to use if there is a conflict -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web Browser Testing and the Practicallity of Testing other OS's
It might be worth testing on different platforms. Firefox 2.0 on Windows, OSX and Linux. I belive there some times are some quirks that creeps up. All though rare. - Original Message - From: Andrew WC Brown To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 3:28 PM Subject: [WSG] Web Browser Testing and the Practicallity of Testing other OS's Hi WSG, I'm testing a custom application to see if it works in different OS's and Web Browsers. My question is there any practical reason to test different OS when you can download them on your current OS. eg. W2K Internet Explorer 5.5 vs WXP Internet Explorer 5.5 I have multiple IE but is there really any reason to use a different OS? Is the web browser going to be any different? Anyone with web browser testing experience have any advise? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] repeating background png support ie6
Screenshots sent. Not sure how gracefully degrade. I think once when I used a translucent image it was an even colour and IE6 should simply degrade to display the colour solid. That worked fine for my use. Your case might be different though. - Original Message - From: kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:06 PM Subject: [WSG] repeating background png support ie6 Hi, Whats the standards way to handle or degrade ie6 png support for a repeating background img? Im having problems solving this-ies4mac doesn't seem to do well with conditional comments and png hacks-so i cant tell whats working. Im thinking about putting the wrapper div with the repeating background image in two different stylesheets. One with a png for normal browsers and one with a gif for ie then i would just hide the png from ie6 and give it the gif one with conditional comments. Also if anyone can email me a screen shot from ie6 off list that would be great. beta page: http://www.arasgcc.com/indextest.html -thanks kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] books
Aye! A case of my own head not thinking... ;) - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] books you mean Dont make ME think, right? ;-) you made me think about it... ;-) On Feb 19 2008, at 07:29, Thomas Thomassen wrote: Don't make the think -- A Common Sence Approach to Web Usability by Steve Krug Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] books
Don't make the think -- A Common Sence Approach to Web Usability by Steve Krug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:31 AM Subject: [WSG] books Anybody can suggest me some good books or other resources for · Webstandards · css technics · Ui design and development · javascript (especially for UI purpose) I prefer books. Thanks a ton Naveen Bhaskar Menon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] long words not wrapping inside DIV
As far as I know, control of how text wrap was introduced in CSS3: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#text-wrap All though, IE has it's own property for this http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms531186(VS.85).aspx I think you'll have to pick a different word for your localization. Out of curiosity, why can't you change the width of the drop down menu? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:23 AM Subject: [WSG] long words not wrapping inside DIV HI . I have a dropdown menu with a width of 150px. while localization some texts are too long and it is not wrapping inside the DIV and going outside the div. Is there any way to wrap long words. I don't want to use scrollbars in the div and I can't increase the width of the DIV. Pls help.. Thanks a ton in advance.. Naveen Bhaskar Menon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents
Yes, IE doesn't handle attribute selectors.
However, I'd still be tempted to use it. The only thing that happens is that
IE6 doesn't display the icons. Graceful degradation. Users with newer
browsers will get a better experience, but it'll still work with the older
browsers.
- Original Message -
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents
Matt Fellows wrote:
There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically
style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file
it points to if you are interested.
Cheers,
Matt
[1] -
http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html
Hi Matt, I was intrigued by the simplicity of your use of:
a[href $='.pdf'] {
padding-right: 18px;
background: transparent url(../../sitegraphics/outofit.gif) no-repeat
center right;
}
etc., but when I checked it in my (standalone) IE6, it failed. Is that to
be expected? (standalone IE6 gives 'funny' results sometimes). If so,
it's dead as a useful tool for me.
Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents
True. Dean Edwards got a very good library to aid IE: http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/ - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents On Sun, February 17, 2008 10:02 pm, Thomas Thomassen wrote: Yes, IE doesn't handle attribute selectors. There are always javascript workarounds for attribute selectors in IE. However, I'd still be tempted to use it. The only thing that happens is that IE6 doesn't display the icons. Graceful degradation. Users with newer browsers will get a better experience, but it'll still work with the older browsers. -- Andrew Cunningham Research and Development Coordinator Vicnet State Library of Victoria Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] hello
Nothing. Web 2.0 is a buzzword. There's nothing truely new. It's often accociated with social networking. Sites where the users provide the content. - Original Message - From: Gitanjali To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] hello What is the difference between normal web template and web 2.0 templates??? On Feb 12, 2008 6:40 PM, Gitanjali [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello aleagi Thank you very much.. On Feb 12, 2008 6:17 PM, aleagi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Gitanjali, In general, there's no rule to design to web 2.0. There's a myth concerning that you have to use shades, a lot of spaces between elements, large font sizes, and stuff... But, in general, the design must be clean and balanced. If this can help: http://www.templateworld.com/all_web_2.0_templates_1.html But, web 2.0 is more about structure of the pages like XHTML 1.0 Strict (or 1.1) without errors, CSS well structured, tableless, WCAG 1, 2 and 3... So, if your pages are already with this elements (well coded), the design will be a very easy thing to do. An advice: less is more! @;] Have a nice day! Regards, Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes - Nosce te ipsum - http://sapiensdc.com.br On Feb 12, 2008 10:26 AM, Gitanjali [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello aleagi! i want to know what is web 2.0 and how to do a template using web 2.0 On Feb 12, 2008 5:45 PM, aleagi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Gitanjali, Help with what? Web 2.0 is a concept that has a lot of subjects to be discussed... What do you want to know about web 2.0? (If this exists at all). Regards, Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes - Nosce te ipsum - http://sapiensdc.com.br On Feb 12, 2008 10:07 AM, Gitanjali [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all! Can anybody help me in web 2.0 please -- Regards. Gitanjali, Web Designer. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Regards. Gitanjali, Web Designer. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Regards. Gitanjali, Web Designer. -- Regards. Gitanjali, Web Designer. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Decorative bolding
The branding might change. I'm in favour of span with a class, like: span class=logo. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:42 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Decorative bolding Do I: a. Use the b tag, or... b. Use a span tag and bold it using CSS? I'd use span, b is deprecated Actually it's not deprecated, not in HTML 4, 5 or XHTML 1. If ever there was a case for the use the 'b' element, this might be a good one. --- Strong is important so, as Rachel stated, it isn't appropriate. A span is fine as others have pointed out, but the b element might also be a sound choice in this case. The b element is a highlight of sorts. That is its semantic value, its role as an element in a web document. From HTML 5: blockquote The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance, such as key words in a document abstract, product names in a review, or other spans of text whose typical typographic presentation is boldened. /blockquote It is bold without the importance, at least that is its default rendering. Remember, just because it is bold might not necessarily mean that it is a style. All elements have a default rendering. Strong is bold and so are headings. They all have a role, and we don't think of those as a style. A better way to answer the original question might be to ask: Do you want the value retained in the mark-up, or is it purely a style that painted onto the presentational layer? Or, worded another way, should the boldened treatment exist without styles? If it should, then the b might be best. Otherwise I heartily agreee that the span element should be used. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 3-pixel jog victim
Add left padding to the paragraph intead? - Original Message - From: Jens-Uwe Korff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:33 PM Subject: [WSG] IE6 3-pixel jog victim Hi, I have restyled a timeline but have come stuck with IE6's 3-pixel jog. I cannot apply the usual remedy (floating the paragraph) as I need any element next to the floated offender to be indented. Hence the paragraph has a left margin which cannot be zero. I've tried all the usual IE6 tricks (position, hasLayout, inline) to no avail. Any help is greatly appreciated. http://creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/history/aboriginal-history -timeline.html Thanks, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
The definition lists aren't soly for defining a term. The W3C specs gives an example usage of DL to marking up dialouges. I see the defintion lists as a good option when the list consists of two parts, a headline and a description. - Original Message - From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] use of p in li If the lists have a number of levels like Services Web Site Development Graphics SEO and more About Us Me You Someone else I'm not talking about presenting a list of links; I'm talking about presenting the actual content on a page. From your example above, it's quite feasible that you'd just have one page for Services and one for About Us. If you present * Web Site Development * Graphics * SEO as a list of services (which it is), then it's quite likely you're going to need more than one paragraph to describe each of them. I don't buy the definition list option because I don't believe a description of a service is a 'definition' of that service (descriptions and definitions are two separate things). The argument for splitting onto separate pages may not always be the best option either - there may not be enough to say about each one to warrant that, but there may be more than can fit into one single paragraph. You see bulleted or numbered lists of more than one paragraph in printed material all the time, particularly academic publications. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I'm with you there. I also check my sites without styling. Gives an idea if the document is well structured. I'll be posting a link to the archive of this thread on the forum I regulary use. The common guide to people asking to mark up forms has been to use lists. It'll be interesting too see the discussion spark off there as well. Your article will be nice food for thoughts. Straying away from the topic a little. (I suppose I should've created a new topic?) I noticed you used small on your blog. In HTML4 it's a font style element on the line with b and i etc. However, in HTML5 it now got a meaning. Small print. The question is, even though HTML5 is still a draft, can we say that small has a semantic meaning now? Even though HTML, which is a current recommendation, doesn't define it as such? I've often found my self wanting to use small for small prints, side comments and such, but until HTML5 came along I thought it was just the way I interpreted the small tag, so I didn't make any use of it. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hello Thomas, But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a br between the label and input. I know developers are mostly split down the middle about this issue that I've seen. To me, and perhaps this is really silly, but I really like my sites to look and be just as usable with styles off as they are with styles on, and I find adding breaks really neatens up the form visually when viewing the site without styles, organizing it a bit. To me that's a positive thing. I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No negatives that I'm aware of. Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to adding a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to that end either. I will say this, though, I do respect the choice made by those who choose not to use it. So much so that the third version of my contact form script has a configuration variable called $add_breaks to which entering yes will add them in and entering no remove them. Each to their own I figured. No harm either way that I know of so I may as well be accommodating :) Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Very interesting article. I'm reevaluating my options about lists on forms. But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a br between the label and input. Semantically it looks like it separates them, even though the FOR attributes connects them. If the br came after the input then both the label and the input ends up in the same line without any CSS styling. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Very interesting article. I'm reevaluating my options about lists on forms. But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a br between the label and input. Semantically it looks like it separates them, even though the FOR attributes connects them. If the br came after the input then both the label and the input ends up in the same line without any CSS styling. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hi Rachel, I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready For better or worse, it's published: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254 Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)
I had a look at your article. Got some questions: One of your examples: p iWhy does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times/i, he thought. /p Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use: p qWhy does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times/q, he thought. /p ...since it's quoting a person's though? As for: p The nematicidal marigold, i lang=laTagetes minutum/i, can grow to 8-10 feet. /p wouldn't that be better as: p The nematicidal marigold, dfnTagetes minutum/dfn, can grow to 8-10 feet. /p As this then defines what Tagetes minutum is? Gotto give it to you. It's been a while since my ideas of semantial markup has been challenged such as your articles does. Refreshing. My mind bubbles. I'll have to investigate your other articles. And I think it's time for me to have a new look at the w3c specs for these 'old' elements again. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms) Hi Thomas, In HTML4 it's a font style element on the line with b and i etc I guess I've always considered it a font-sizing element more than a styling thing, though the final result is a visual style. I've always felt it has a meaning of being less important than the surrounding text. An afterthought, a byline, some fineprint, or supporting sub-text. can we say that small has a semantic meaning now? I always felt it did in an odd sort of way. I judge its use again with styles off. If I really want the text to be smaller to effectively separate its meaning from the surrounding text, then I use the small element. If it shouldn't be, or if I'm not sure or can't decide, or I don't care one way or the other, then I don't use it. If I still want it to appear smaller for some reason I will likely use a span element instead to style the text in question without dimishing its value as it relate to the surrounding content. However, when I usually want text to be smaller, then it is usually because I feel it *is* less important falling into one of the categories I mentioned, so I usually end up using the small tag. I may use it more than some people for this reason. Same thing applies to the b element, but differently. The b element is meant to be a highlight. I end up never using it because I always end up asking myself why I want to highlight something. My answer always guides me. If it's purely stylistic then I use a span, but I usually want to hightlight a word because it is meant to be spoken with emphasis (inflection) so I'll end up using em. Or it may be more important than the surrouding (a common reason to highlight a word or phrase), then I use the important element: strong. b is one of those I don't really have a use for. I use the i element more regularly becuase the W3C is more clear about it, and its uses are more distinct and meaningful My thoughts on those two elements are spelled out in more detail here: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=222 Cheers. Mike I think this might be one of those double-edged swords. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
While I see your point, what I find to be troublesome is that Label and Input are inline elements. While it's easy to wrap the Inputs in Labels and make the Labels block elements, with just plain HTML and no CSS that means a form's elements will end up all in one long line. Now, one can assume that most users will be using a user agent applying CSS, so it might not be much of an issue. But I don't see ptd as similar to label + inputli. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. I don't know why that would be. Proper use of form elements is the only organizational support needed. In my opinion, use of any other non-form elements on form's isn't necessary, or advantageous and, if not careful, can actually take away from the form. Just like a p doesn't need a td, a label + input combo doesn't need an li. Old conversation, I know, but I just had to chime in. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
hm... this thread has given me a thinker. How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? form fieldset labelFoo: input id=foo//label labelBar: input id=bar//label /fieldset /form How will it present the form? If it's all inline, will it be read continuous, or will there be a break between the elements? - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0
On having Layout is a good article that gives good insight to most of IE's quirks: http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0 MH: Someone earlier this week sent a very good presentation that explained a lot of the problems you are facing. It is quite a long presentation (more of a lesson really!) but it answers a lot of the problems you are having. There are also a collection of great links sprinkled through that we could all find useful in our bookmarks list. give it a whirl! http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ Joe On Feb 6 2008, at 02:10, Michael Horowitz wrote: I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/. What are the issues and workarounds to keep them in sync. In this case I would like it centered both ways but I would love to know how to do it either way. Thanks -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Have a look at this article on A List Apart: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/prettyaccessibleforms If you haven't been too that site before then have a snoop around. They got lots of really good articles. - Original Message - From: Christian Snodgrass [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms It kind of depends on the form itself. Definition lists and unordered lists also are used a lot. Usually, I would say unordered or definition lists are the most appropriate. If the questions were numbered, I could see using ordered lists. Paragraphs are kind of the lazy way. You can also use field sets, which are really appropriate for groups of related items. Michael Horowitz wrote: I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
When the LABEL element wraps around INPUT you do not need the FOR attribute.The hierarchy provides the connection between them. However, when the LABEL does not wrap around the INPUT, the FOR attribute is required for useragent to know the elements are related. - Original Message - From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hi Germ17,I have seen your example presented in GERMWORKS.NETFYI, your approach is perfect to my knowledge, but the INPUT element should not wrapped by any LABEL element. It's not compliant/accessible...I request you to modify this example according to standards, if you believe the same. You're wrong there. It's perfectly valid HTML and I don't believe it is any less accessible as long as the 'for' attribute is specified. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type
There's no difference between XHTML 1.1 and XHTML 1.0 Strict. XHTML 1.1 only advantage is that it's modulized and can only be sent as XML so it can be extended. If you're not extending it then you're better off with XHTML 1.0. - Original Message - From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type Thomas Thomassen wrote: Why sniff out browsers that accept XML? If the document is marked as XHTML 1.1 it should allways be sent as XML. Though, I have seen people sniffing out browsers and using server side scripting to change the doctype. XHTML 1.1 to browsers than supports it, and XHTML 1.0 with the html mime to older browsers. Which is meaningless since the document effectivly is XHTML 1.0. Maybe, but coding in xhtml1.1 makes you MUCH more fussy about syntax etc. and it shows up any 'well formed' errors as soon as you browse. So, whilst the user will know nothing about all this, it makes you as a designer get lots of practice in using the stricter syntax, ready for some day in the future when you will need it. Maybe :-) Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type
Now that's new to me. Will have to read up on that. But then I see no point in XHTML 1.1, because wasn't it mean to be modulized and extendible by XML? - Original Message - From: Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type Thomas Thomassen skrev: There's no difference between XHTML 1.1 and XHTML 1.0 Strict. XHTML 1.1 only advantage is that it's modulized Not entirely true. XHTML 1.1 includes ruby. and can only be sent as XML so it can be extended. If you're not extending it then you're better off with XHTML 1.0. FWIW - and I do not wish to reopen the considered harmful debate - appendix C allows for sending XHTML 1.1 as well as XHTML 1.0 as text/html. (That's a recent change in the specs that few seem to know about.) Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
- Original Message - From: Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy Thomas Thomassen wrote: You don't have to modify every single HTML you publish. You can set the HTTP header for HTML files on your server and off you go. Don't forget the nasty gotcha: save that page on your own computer, load it back up and suddenly it looks different (as the browser doesn't have the meta tag in the code for the webpage). Yes, that is an issue. But saving webpages to disc has always been unreliable. Espesially now with the extensive use of AJAX and other embedded and streamed content. Letting the sites break is not an alternative. Yes it is. You just don't like it :) You're correct. I don't like it. Because it punishes the users and the owners of the sites. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
Not every site has a webdesigner constantly maintaining it. Retroactively editing the millions of existing pages out there will cost an enourmouse amount of money. Fitting a meta tag into existing documents isn't as easy as implementing it into new ones. - Original Message - From: Chris Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy Thomas Thomassen wrote: You don't have to modify every single HTML you publish. You can set the HTTP header for HTML files on your server and off you go. What I've yet to hear from people who don't like the solution is a realistic alternative. Letting the sites break is not an alternative. heres an alternative, instead of letting the sites break, add a meta tag to them to fix them to an older browser version. You don't have to modify every single HTML you publish. You can set the HTTP header for HTML files on your server and off you go. It seems that what is so quick and simple for one group of people to do is somehow a huge task for the other group? -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
By the sound of it, IE9 will default to IE7 for documents with proper strict doctype and IE6 for documents with invalid or missing doctype. Just like IE8. Regarding what you said about X-IE9-Compatible, X-IE10-Compatible: No, it would be meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=9 / if the site was made for IE9, and meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=10 / the http-equip header name itself would not need to be replaced. And your proposed solution is a punishment to the users and the owners of the sites. And the owners will loose money if their sites suddently break due to missing visitors and having to pay someone to sort it out. It doesn't sound fair to do this to the owners and users because they're the ones that'll suffer the most. And we are after all offering a service. - Original Message - From: James Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy On Jan 30, 2008 1:31 AM, Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't want to default to IE8 rendering because of what happend with IE7. It broke website. Not only that but IE is used so much outside the browser as well. It's a platform. Intranet apps. HTA apps. Even help files uses the IE engine. If IE8 defaulted to IE8 rendering, then you risk breaking ALL of that. And who's going to get the heat for that? The developers! Us! And then when IE9 comes out, what does it default to? The same people who built stuff that relied on IE6 bugs and broke in IE7 will build stuff that relies on IE8 bugs and breaks in IE9 (especially since IE8 will be the first version with any support for the HTML 5 drafts; like any first implementation of anything, there will be bugs). And so on into the future; do we get an X-IE9-Compatible and an X-IE10-Compatible, and an X-IE11-Compatible down the line to deal with that? When I first heard of this new tag I didn't know what to think of it. But I'm starting to like it more and more. What I've yet to hear from from people who don't like the solution is a realistic alternative. Letting the sites break is not an alternative. Well, there are three groups here: 1. Standards-based developers who don't rely on browser bugs to make their stuff work. 2. Standards-based developers who do rely on browser bugs to make their stuff work. 3. Developers who don't use standards-based techniques at all. Group 1 doesn't need X-UA-Compatible because they don't have the problem it allegedly solves. Group 3 doesn't need X-UA-Compatible because they have quirks mode. Group 2 are the only ones who need it, but by accepting it they're giving up on the ability to use any new features down the road (since, to kick future IE versions into a more featureful standards mode, they'd have to stop relying on old bugs). So the solution is to make Group 2 stop existing, and all that's really needed is for browser vendors to do nothing special to cater to them; the simple market force of clients who want functioning web sites will sort things out all on its own by either giving Group 2 an incentive to change its ways, or putting them out of business. -- Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type
Why sniff out browsers that accept XML? If the document is marked as XHTML 1.1 it should allways be sent as XML. Though, I have seen people sniffing out browsers and using server side scripting to change the doctype. XHTML 1.1 to browsers than supports it, and XHTML 1.0 with the html mime to older browsers. Which is meaningless since the document effectivly is XHTML 1.0. - Original Message - From: David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:37:26 +1100, Andrew Freedman wrote: Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type http://www.bigbaer.com/css_tutorials/css.image.text.wrap.htm Yah. DOCTYPE is XHTML 1.1, which should only be served as XML. I suggest HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 instead, unless you want to sniff for browsers that accept XML on your server processing. Be aware that the XML prolog puts IE6 into quirks mode. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
But the crappy intranet sites etc that are coded specifically to IE6 or IE7's quirks *won't* go away (as that's the whole reason why MS are doing this), so no, the meta tag (and the associated rendering engine) will stay. If they're freezing rendering unless you opt-in because corporates won't update the sites now, what makes you think that they will ever update the sites? That's the whole idea. That they *won't* have to update their intranet application to account for a new IE rendering engine. And for an intranet application, and such like, web standards and semantics is not an issue. It's an application, it runs on the IE engine and it works. And because of the delay and the meta-tag, more developers will have grown complacent and lazy (coding for just that rendering engine*), and so the number of sites that will 'break' will have increased. Then they're made by non-professional developers. Which is how most sites are made anyway. Webdevelopers that cares about clean coding, semantics and webstandards are a minority. Most of the web is allready broken. There's tagsoup and hacks all over the place. I can't see how this tag will change that. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
You don't have to modify every single HTML you publish. You can set the HTTP header for HTML files on your server and off you go. Btw, you have to author every single document, so is it really that bad to add a meta tag? They don't want to default to IE8 rendering because of what happend with IE7. It broke website. Not only that but IE is used so much outside the browser as well. It's a platform. Intranet apps. HTA apps. Even help files uses the IE engine. If IE8 defaulted to IE8 rendering, then you risk breaking ALL of that. And who's going to get the heat for that? The developers! Us! When I first heard of this new tag I didn't know what to think of it. But I'm starting to like it more and more. What I've yet to hear from from people who don't like the solution is a realistic alternative. Letting the sites break is not an alternative. - Original Message - From: Ben Buchanan To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy I don't think they're ignoring the mess they created at all.. You're right there. They're not ignoring the problem, it's just that a lot of people don't agree with their solution. Is adding a meta tag really too much work to provide your users/visitors the viewing experience they should have? Consider it this way: is any other browser maker asking you to modify every single HTML document you publish, just to fix a problem *they* created? ...and not for the first time, given MS already expects us to load up our sites with conditional comments and extra stylesheets... It really wouldn't matter so much if they were making IE8 default to IE8, then letting people set it back to IE7 if they actually need it. This way around ticks people off for the same reason SPAM ticks them off - they didn't ask for it! cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images versus image
You could make the javascript trigger on the image onload events. Though, I think some older version of Opera, v8 or 7.54, doesn't support the onLoad event for images. - Original Message - From: Christian Snodgrass [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Background images versus image That script has two flaws that reduce it's user base: 1) As said many times now, Javascript+CSS-Images = unusable 2) The imaged version doesn't work in Safari. In Safari, it shows up as the default (to me, this isn't acceptable). Also, if anyone isn't aware, Safari is the major browser for Mac computers. So, to fix this, first you make it so it doesn't load if images aren't available. I'm working on this. Then, you find an alternative, working method for Safari. I'm gonna attempt to fix this as well. The images is the biggie, the Safari thing isn't so much usability, just that the look isn't consistent when it should be. Likely, James A. wrote: Agreed thanks, I don't know much about JavaScript, but is there really a way to make sure that you get all users? *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Dave Woods *Sent:* Friday, January 25, 2008 2:33 PM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Background images versus image What are the chances of that happening? I would think it would be very slim wouldn't it? You'd be surprised... I know a few dialup users who browse with images disabled to speed up loading times but leave CSS and JavaScript on so that the presentation and any enhanced functionality is still available. I agree that these types of users are in the minority but they do exist. On 25/01/2008, *Likely, James A.* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From all of the examples that I have seen this is the one that accommodates most users. How would a screen reader read this option? Has any one tested something similar to the example that I found? Thanks again for the help. James -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Christian Snodgrass Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Background images versus image That isn't bad, but if you have Javascript and CSS, but no images, it fails completely. Likely, James A. wrote: Thanks for the emails. Some things I didn't think of but will from now on. I have been doing some reading and looking at options and found this example. http://www.chriserwin.com/scripts/crir/ What are your thoughts on this approach? To me it looks pretty user friendly. Please let me know as this is new to me. Thanks James *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *On Behalf Of *Dave Woods *Sent:* Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:59 AM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Background images versus image The first question I'd ask is why not just use check boxes instead of trying to replicate them? If you mark them up correctly then there's really no better accessible method than using the correct element as it was meant. If you go down this route then you're likely to create all kinds of problems for yourself... what happens when users don't have css available (mobile devices), images disabled (dialup users) or are using screenreaders. If you want to change the appearance then I'd use JavaScript to enhance the existing check boxes but for those user agents that don't support JavaScript or have it disabled you should have the fall back of regular forms. Hope that helps. - - - - - http://www.dave-woods.co.uk On 23/01/2008, *Likely, James A.* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I am working on a new site for a client and need some thoughts on a problem that I have. I am making a list with clickable boxes (like input boxes) that have a checked, disabled and clickable state. My question is, what would work best. Using background images or adding images to the code. The reason I ask is 1) If I use images, we can add alt text to describe what function the images have. This would
Re: [WSG] Background images versus image
Most mobile phones won't use Javascript or CSS either. And the usage of handheld devices is rapidly increasing. So is other gadgets. Nintendo DS for instance. We can't assume that only browser applications is used to access our webpages. - Original Message - From: Christian Snodgrass [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Background images versus image I haven't tested on many screen readers, but from what I understand, most have CSS disabled, so it would read this as a regular form. However, there is the possibility that someone uses a regular browser with screen reading technology (just like what you could use to read a document in Word). As for how likely this case my be, I have no idea. I'd say it'd have somewhere from 75-95% success rate for disabled users, but that is just an educated guess and is in no way a scientific or statistically evaluation. You've actually gotten me interested in this idea so I'm currently working on my own version of that, with some fail safes to help eliminate this problem, as well as make it work on Safari (since, as you probably noticed, in his notes he said he disabled it in Safari). I'll let you know how it turns out. Likely, James A. wrote: What are the chances of that happening? I would think it would be very slim wouldn't it? From all of the examples that I have seen this is the one that accommodates most users. How would a screen reader read this option? Has any one tested something similar to the example that I found? Thanks again for the help. James -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Snodgrass Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Background images versus image That isn't bad, but if you have Javascript and CSS, but no images, it fails completely. Likely, James A. wrote: Thanks for the emails. Some things I didn't think of but will from now on. I have been doing some reading and looking at options and found this example. http://www.chriserwin.com/scripts/crir/ What are your thoughts on this approach? To me it looks pretty user friendly. Please let me know as this is new to me. Thanks James *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Dave Woods *Sent:* Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:59 AM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Background images versus image The first question I'd ask is why not just use check boxes instead of trying to replicate them? If you mark them up correctly then there's really no better accessible method than using the correct element as it was meant. If you go down this route then you're likely to create all kinds of problems for yourself... what happens when users don't have css available (mobile devices), images disabled (dialup users) or are using screenreaders. If you want to change the appearance then I'd use JavaScript to enhance the existing check boxes but for those user agents that don't support JavaScript or have it disabled you should have the fall back of regular forms. Hope that helps. - - - - - http://www.dave-woods.co.uk On 23/01/2008, *Likely, James A.* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I am working on a new site for a client and need some thoughts on a problem that I have. I am making a list with clickable boxes (like input boxes) that have a checked, disabled and clickable state. My question is, what would work best. Using background images or adding images to the code. The reason I ask is 1) If I use images, we can add alt text to describe what function the images have. This would help with screen readers and people with disabilities. 2) Background images keep the code clean but wonder about the alt text and how screen readers and people with disabilities would read the site. Is there a way to imitate the alt for background images? You can see an example of both ways at: Using images: _http://wisconsin.joekiosk.com/list/list.html_ Using background images: _http://wisconsin.joekiosk.com/list/list2.html_ Let me know your thoughts and what you think would work best. I love the background images as the code is clean, but has any one done any testing to see how this would work for screen readers or do you have suggestions on how to make it more accessible? Thanks for the help. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
