RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x
I found this link interesting within the context of the current discussion. " HTML: The standard that failed? HTML is officially whatever the top browser vendors say it is at the moment. You call that a standard? " http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/html-the-standard-failed-585 Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] E Learning for Telecom Operators(Telcos).I
>From Sanath"I am looking for an GUI Concept for E Learning for Telecom Operators(Telcos).If any body have any idea Please reply." CM Reply --- I applaud you for asking about a GUI for an eLearning project, it's something I wished more eLearning developers would explore. I've long maintained that a GUI for an eLearning project shouldn't be any different than any other web based content presentation. Focus on usability and navigation, focus on the learner's preferences not the training industry's preferences. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Kepler Gelotte Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor > Just spent a day with FCKEditor only to find that there appears to be > no way to have site CSS appear in the "Style" dropdown, w/o transforming the > CSS into XML. That is not entirely accurate. The fckstyles.xml tells the editor which styles the user can apply and how to apply them. The actual CSS definition is defined in your CSS file and can be modified without updating the fckstyles.xml again. [-CM-] I'd love to know more about where and how to accomplish that. Everything I found talked about FCKConfig.EditorAreaCSS = FCKConfig.EditorAreaStyles FCKConfig.ToolbarComboPreviewCSS But that doesn't change the styles in the style drop down to the site styles Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
I'd be also be curious to learn more about any editors that can use a site's CSS. Just spent a day with FCKEditor only to find that there appears to be no way to have site CSS appear in the "Style" dropdown, w/o transforming the CSS into XML. For about 5 years, I've used InnovaStudio because it easily integrates use of site styles by the editor, but it's not commonly available within most CMS apps. Would like to learn about any other editors that can easily integrate with a site's CSS. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article
I think he was referring to this story http://www.informationweek.com/news/infrastructure/management/showArticle.jh tml?articleID=216600011 Christie Mason -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article Do you have a link to the information week story? Nancy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Well there goes that theory. My thoughts were something like graphically oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash. BCAT's attempting to make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed. Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept, but it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] SEO and Flash
It seems that SEs are beginning to index text in Flash. Maybe the same will be true of screen readers, some day. http://www.seochat.com/c/a/Search-Engine-Optimization-Help/Search-Engine-Ind exing-for-Flash-Websites-is-Improving/#?kc=EWKNLINF01142009STR5 Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
-Original Message- From: Hassan Schroeder It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side, and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as it's being removed in the video. CM - that sounds useful but MY preference would also be to have a text based "cheat sheet" to scan the steps then link out to the multimedia detail. Start simple, offer the rich option, track how much the rich option is accessed to determine its usefulness and cost justification. How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above? CM - As long as there's a recognition that using multimedia at all times doesn't always add value, it's fine with me. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal observations. Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
7;ve found that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content into Flash. BP - Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever reason, then by all means, make accessible Flash. You cannot change all the teachers in the world, it is impossible, and Flash is here to stay. CM - At last, something to agree with. Flash is just one way to offer content. Where we disagree is that Teacher/trainers can change, if they're willing to learn from their students/learner. Instead of pie in sky theories, try offering content as text/graphics and as Flash then solicit feedback, watch the logs, see what is used and preferred. That's how web developers, not designers, learn what works. Long ago web developers learned that putting all content in Flash wasn't useful Anyone remember some of the early eCommerce sites with verbal avatars? What works is to start simple, then layer in the complex only as needed. CM - Plus people "read" the web differently than they read a book or watch a movie (from 1997 but still true http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9710a.html) People scan the web, people can't scan Flash. CM - Think about this discussion thread. Email based discussions are another face of eLearning. In what way could using Flash have improved this discussion? Would this discussion even have happened if all participants would have had to create Flash files to "interact"? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
-Original Message- From:f Hassan Schroeder Christie Mason wrote: > Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort. > ... Plus, there's the maintenance issue. Simple example I always > use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file? To > do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and that's > it. To change it in every Flash file... HS .. you do exactly the same thing, because it's not "in every Flash file" at all. CM - I wasn't talking about Flex. I was referring to Flash. I can see that I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts. HS Yes, you obviously didn't get very far with Flex -- so, why are you arguing the (de)merits of a technology you don't understand? CM - Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else. What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with links to graphics, video/Flash, etc using PHP, ASP (scripts) or ASP.NET (framework)? Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I also haven't been looking for it. As a user of Cold Fusion many years ago I'd also be interested in learning more about its current market share. How is AIR doing? At first AIR was intriguing but then I haven't met any need that it fulfilled. Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you. Do you use Macs as your primary computer or PC? I think the very visual are drawn towards using Macs and Flash. It's fine to be visually oriented, I'm not using it as a judgment call because I think it's just as difficult for highly visual people to remember that not everyone shares their preference as it is for those that aren't highly visual to remember to use graphics for those that are highly visual. I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a graph. I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's been my experience than when people start focusing on making the interface/content flash around, then usability is degraded and content quality is decreased because first the budget bucks go towards "make it sing/dance" before taking the time to build a solid structure that easily creates and maintains useful content. So back to the original, still unanswered question. What are the advantages of using Flash (Flex etal)? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
From: Hassan Schroeder Have you ever developed -- or even used -- an application built in Flex, or OpenLaszlo? Perfectly simple to do any of the above, with the advantage of easy integration with video and other rich content. [CM] Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort. It didn't give me any additional benefits to offset the effort and it greatly reduced the ability to index and organize content to make it searchable, findable. About the only benefit I've found to Flash is in the use of video. But I only use video to augment the primary content, not contain primary content. There's no benefit in having true interactive methods such as discussion forums or wikis or blogs in Flash. Yes, taxonomies and keywords can be assigned but the content remains locked away. Plus, I still haven't seen any postings explaining the benefits of taking accessible text and graphics, then going through the effort of creating Flash files from them, then going through the effort of making Flash accessible. Plus, there's the maintenance issue. Simple example I always use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file? To do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and that's it. To change it in every Flash file, you have to find the source, if you can, then change each file and rerun it. Or, even more fun, try to change something like a product image where you don't know which Flash files referenced which version of which product image when they were created. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of using Flash? There's been no answer to that question. I was hoping to learn some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely used in eLearning.I think I see several factors but I also think I'm still missing part of the puzzle. 1. Teachers/trainers continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies. That's the way they were forced to learn, enjoyed learning, so it must be the "right" way. Books, PPT, films, etc are all linear displays of tightly controlled, tightly packaged content.Flash is the most similar to that type of content. It's controlled, linear and has a beginning, middle and end. Vendors saw this preference and developed their apps accordingly. Soon the only apps that were available to create "eLearning" were all Flash based. It then became a self-expanding cycle of teacher/trainers seeing Flash being used everywhere, which caused them to think that was the "right" way to do eLearning, which caused more vendors to make more apps that only delivered Flash based content. Using those apps is, at least initially, easier than actually learning about the web so the cycle continues. 2. Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they can't control it. The web doesn't force you to begin at page 1, chapter 1. You can begin anywhere and then move back to simpler content, go sideways, or delve to the point where you know more than the teacher/trainer. You can learn from people that are not the teacher/trainer. You don't have to learn in lock step with others, you can form and reform groups that match your interests and learning level. 3. There appears to be broad acceptance of the theories of multiple types of intelligence and different learning styles by teacher/trainers, but no interest in learning how the web has evolved to meet those different needs. The web is a continuously evolving experiment in supporting different learning preferences. When the first web sites based solely on Flash were offered, they failed and the web turned towards exploring other content formats and ways of organizing content. Useful content that is findable, refindable and easy to use succeeds. That doesn't describe content that has been buried in Flash. I have hope that the tide is turning. Teachers/trainers have experienced the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties become clear) the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build and rebuild Flash delivered content. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be "rich".There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on "look at me" instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash. Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic. A little adds depth, a lot is inedible. Christie -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]on Behalf Of michael.brocking...@bt.com Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT I think you may have missed the point of the earlier question - What can flash bring to the learning environment that cannot be done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript? Regards, Mike PS: Please print and keep this email, as all paper these days comes from managed forests, and therefore more trees will be planted as a result, which sequester more CO2 than mature trees. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Priti Rohra Sent: 08 January 2009 06:44 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Hi Christie, Flash is used extensively for creating E-learning courses and adding accessibility to Flash courses enhances the learning experience for students with special needs, provides authors and students with wider choices for creating and accessing E-learning courses etc. In addition, Flash helps to explain the complex concepts easily to students with learning and cognitive impairments, especially those having reading problems and those who find difficulties in understanding complex concepts. Thus Flash can enrich the learning experience for all students and Accessible Flash can help to wards Inclusive Education. Thanks & Regards, Priti Rohra Accessibility Tester Net Systems Informatics (India) Pvt. Ltd. Web: www.n-syst.com|www.barrierbreak.com Blog: www.barrierbreak.com/blog Please don't print this email unless you really need to. This will preserve trees on our planet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Wouldn't it have been easier to manage and more appropriate towards being welcoming to those using assistive technologies to NOT use Flash? Yes, Flash can be MADE to be accessible but what benefits does its use offer to justify all the things that must be done to make it accessible? Why not use a standard CMS approach, apply web standards, and link in alternate media? Then the text can be made larger and even the size of graphics, such as icons, can be increased with standard browser settings. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Question about change color of numbers in OL list
I came across the below, sorry I don't have any notes on where, and it's
worked for me. Put the color you want on the li and then use to change the
number color and weight.
ol { counter-reset: item }
ol li { display: block }
ol li:before {
content: counter(item) ". ";
counter-increment: item;
font-weight: bold;
color: #00FD00;
}
Christie Mason
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RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?
Yep, but they're just a little less annoying than read receipts. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:41 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from? Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from? document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:11/05/2008 13:41:14 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Navigation - Pseudo Standards?
I was using "products" generically. Every product drill down that I've seen so far is based on categories. The right column on ThomasNet is not a search, it's a dynamically generated linked drill down through categories. I guess there could be agreement that the code behind "searches" with a query for the link results but that doesn't affect user expectation of where certain types of links s/b located. The question is the same, just the words are different. "Product" based navigation is usually on the right or left for B2B sites? Christie Mason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone > see > http://www.thomasnet.com/products/hydraulic-hoists-38410809-1.html This site does not have a Product navigation menu on the right - products are located via the search function rather than navigation. The site has a list links to other "related categories", which, as such, could be seen as content rather than product navigation structure. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Navigation - Pseudo Standards?
This is a dynamic, database driven site to present product information on around 2500 B2B products. Top Navigation is the product Division, bottom will probably be a repeat of the site navigation, Product navigation is drill down product categories (top level would be around 25 entries). I know that Amazon does product drill down navigation on the left but it seems that many B2B sites list product nav on the right see http://www.thomasnet.com/products/hydraulic-hoists-38410809-1.html http://www.theonlinecatalog.com/cmhnc/store/index.asp?DEPARTMENT_ID=32 Site layout does fine in 800X600 because it's a liquid design, not a static layout with blank space on both sides. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Hancock Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 5:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Navigation - Pseudo Standards? Hi Christie, The 'average joe/average jane' site visitor would expect the site navigation at the top (and possibly some links at the bottom), with the product navigation usually on the left. The exceptions to this usually involve multi-level, drop-down or drop-line menus which are under the header section of the page. Amazon has been a good example of this. Is there an overriding reason for using two side columns? This would usually cut out 800x600 viewers unless you want to do some really nifty javascript style switching to turn it into a bottom/top column for smaller screen resolutions. kind regards, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 0274 f: +61 2 9799 6135 On 15/11/2007, at 5:02 PM, Christie Mason wrote: We're having an internal discussion about the placement of site navigation (Contact Us, etc) vs Product Navigation (Search, Category 1, Category 2, etc) in a 3 column layout with | Navigation |Content | Navigation | Some feel the site navigation should be in the left column with products in the right column, others feel the opposite. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Navigation - Pseudo Standards?
We're having an internal discussion about the placement of site navigation (Contact Us, etc) vs Product Navigation (Search, Category 1, Category 2, etc) in a 3 column layout with | Navigation |Content | Navigation | Some feel the site navigation should be in the left column with products in the right column, others feel the opposite. Does anyone know of any studies or review of user preferences indicating which is the majority preference for web users? Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
I've had more success in presenting standards compliance and accessibility issues as usability issues. Is the site usable for people that are color blind, wear bifocals, have different navigation preferences, have limited use of hands, etc? Then it becomes a discussion about which options to implement, not about if there should be any options implemented.That gives the decision makers the appearance of being in control, and they like that. Of course, while that discussion is going on, you are also planning to implement things like img attributes and guiding them towards the best options. Biz owners tend to understand usability when it's presented in terms of their user/ customers - how to attract them, how to get them to buy more. You will be more successful in selling standards compliance and accessibility if you are perceived as the voice of your customer's customer. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Why DON'T you-know-who just fix the site?
>From the tone of the many comments on this topic it appears there are a lot of people commenting who haven't been internal in a large company and expect that outsiders saying "should" will work to change internal organizational perceptions and direction. It won't. Most people don't do something that other people think they "should" because A. They don't see why they "should" B. People hate to be told to do anything. Telling not selling never works. I suspect because it reminds people of their parents, "You should do this because I told you to". Telling someone a "should" when backed with a big stick like a law can appear to work but it's only superficial adherence, not a deep commitment. Standards and accessibility have a reputation, a perception, that they're expensive and, even more importantly, increase development time and that only a small, strident group of "standardistas" believe in the importance of adhering to standards and only a small group are affected by accessibility. Perceptions become reality to those that hold the perception. Add to that perception that most organizational decision makers do not buy their stuff on the web, or sometimes even buy that there "should" be a web. It was only several years ago that I was still hearing, "But then they'll see our prices if we put our products on the web!" Politicians also don't buy their stuff on the web, but they have little antennae that are reactive to the loudness of the vox populi. A small, loud group can be loud enough to get the attention of their antennae. Telling ain't selling and honey is more attractive than vinegar. If someone thinks that someone else "should" act, think, do in a different way and that someone doesn't respond how they "should", then where's the fault? Is the fault with the person shouting the message, or the person who is unable to hear the message? Good salespeople know that if someone's not hearing their message, it's their fault and they need to repackage the message. Instead of thinking about fault, think about how to change the perception so that businesses will buy standards and accessibility - without using the word "should". Pierce the perception. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
On Oct 5, 2007, at 3:15 AM, Christie Mason wrote: There are many ways to change a culture, but legislating is not one of them. I'm sorry, but I can't let that blatantly false statement go unchallenged. History is full of examples of changes for the better and for the worse brought about through legislation - from Magna Carta to the Nazi's racial laws. Andrew = I think you'd better check your history books. Changes in culture occurred first, creating an environment for the laws to be created - for better or worse. Odd that you chose examples involving a king and a dictator, not the best examples of the body politic. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
Christie Mason wrote: > I can't believe I'm even talking about rights > and shopping in the same sentence. Barney Are you implying that shopping is a luxury? As horrible as you may find it, shopping is actually necessary for human survival in a capitalist society. It's the only way we can acquire goods. = Good point, I'm going to chew on that one for awhile. I still don't think a "right to shop at Target" should be legislated and I suspect there's already too much emphasis on "shopping" in society. I've been reading multiple reports that indicate people are letting their mortgage payments slide and keeping their credit cards paid up so they can continue to have their "right to shop". Gotta leave now, thanks for provoking deeper ponders on nicety/necessity of shopping. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
From: Ortenzi No but you DO have an escalator at your local shopping mall because not everyone finds the climb up the stairs easy. Or should we remove the escalators and elevators from shopping malls too because they CHOSE to go to that shopping mall didn't they? Escalators and elevators were not legislated into existence. Before there were malls, stores figured out that it was more efficient to build multiple levels and then make it easy for customers to access those multiple levels. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
To boil it down. No one has a "right to shop" online that is greater than their "right to shop" at a physical store. I can't believe I'm even talking about rights and shopping in the same sentence. Law is about interpretations of definitions such as "reasonable", "discrimination", "public" etc. At least that's my interpretation of their interpretations. I received the lowest grade in all my years of schooling, a "C", in Business Law; primarily because I was told that law was based on "What would the common man decide with X, Y, Z in evidence?" Don't know if it's because I'm not a man, but most rulings didn't pass my common sense test so I was always a bit perplexed by the results. My impression on this issue so far is that Target did not consciously set out to discriminate against any group of any definition. They are just dumb and have allowed some dink to "sell" them on the idea that this is a good design, when in fact it ignores the needs of many, which makes in inaccessible and unusable and puts them at a competitive disadvantage. There are many ways to change a culture, but legislating is not one of them. Christie Mason [1] we don't have "finders-keepers" and "it's mine, I saw it first" or "give it to me or I'll pull your hair" as social rules outside the playground (and I suspect our educators are doing their best to change those rules too...) [2] gunsol, alchohol, fireworks, drugs etc all have legislation to control their commerce. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
Christie wrote:> > It's very, very difficult to defend the Target site, it's an unusable mess > so I don't use it, but Target does have the right to have a bad site. > Kerry Not if they lose this case, they don't. Christie Then they will still have to the right to have a bad, accessible site. --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
-Original Message- From: Ben Buchanan Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:35 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility I believe web accessibility is in society's best interests. Companies should be forced to do it, just as they are forced (at least in .au) to provide physical accessibilty for their buildings. Christie Replies Yes Target, and other public spaces, have been "forced" into accessible parking, sidewalks and bathrooms, municipally owned spaces actually lagged for-profit spaces by many years. But, and this is a big but, they have not been "forced" into making their display of products to purchase, or the location of those products, accessible to physically challenged people. In a Target, or any other store, there are no supportive technologies enforced to read aisle signage, location of checkout counters, the difference between a box of corn flakes and a box of poison, etc. In many ways, laws that attempt to "force" behavior do more harm than good. They don't eliminate prejudice, they just force people to be more subtle in their expressions of prejudice. The hiring of disabled people actually decreased after protective laws were passed. It's much easier to hide why you didn't hire a disabled person than to fire, with merit, someone in a protected group after you've hired them. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
Katrina Replies ..Let's face it, inaccessibility is basically very bad manners. Most manners are socially re-enforced, however, when manners degrade beyond a certain point, then they are legislated against, for example, jay-walking, swearing, vandalism, theft, etc. That's what we are talking about: legislating against very bad manners, that is, discrimination against disability. Profitability or cost doesn't come into the equation. - Christie responds - My soul cringed when I read "legislating against very bad manners" It can't be done, it shouldn't be attempted. Sounds like you haven't been listening to the TV, or reading many popular magazines, or delved into social sites on the 'net. Bad manners are in, they're praised and encouraged by popular culture. They're defended by law. Target could have put up any/all the swear words it wanted and there would be no recourse. I've often wondered how swearing and rudeness became profitable and culturally sanctioned. Vandalism and theft are about taking of private property. When is a property private and when is a property public? That's the ongoing debate. We are legislating behavior in the private sphere more than at any other time through the simple spin of declaring private property to be in the public realm. To me that's a form of theft, but that's a different discussion. To move from political to the practical. Etiquette cannot be legislated. Culture cannot be legislated. No one has a "right" to shop at Target. This is about a business so, of course, it's about $. The lawyers will make $ from this, Target will pay $ to either change, or pay $ to not change either through lost sales and/or legal penalties. People and organizations only change to avoid pain. Organizations feel pain when they have decreased income or increased expenses - less $. Target perceives the cost of changing exceeds the cost of not changing. I don't think it would cost that much to change the site, but that's not their perception. Yes, laws can inflict pain but not enough for real change. I've always thought that most laws are enacted because people are too lazy to fight for real, lasting, culturally significant change. Our politicians have become the "someone" in "someone should do something about that" instead of "I" or "we" "should do something about that". It's very, very difficult to defend the Target site, it's an unusable mess so I don't use it, but Target does have the right to have a bad site. They have the right to lose $. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Cost of Accessibility
I've been reading the Target thread and keep wondering about the many
references to the "cost of accessibility" with a focus on supplying alt
attributes.
In a database supported eCommerce site, it's very, very easy to put alt
attributes on product images. You simply take the name of the product from
the database and embed it in the img tag so that it looks something like
this, depending on what script/language/framework you're using.
"
alt="<%=rsProduct("prodName")%>" />
What I also don't understand on the Target site is the extensive use of
image maps, and graphics for navigation. They cost more to code and
maintain than dynamically filtering lists for navigation.
If Target doesn't "get" how their methods are costing them sales, negatively
impacting their brand, and increasing their web support costs; then should
they be legislated into more profitable methods?
Christie Mason
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RE: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Using target="_blank"
I'm not sure who wrote the below, but I'm hoping it was a sarcastic comment and not someone's real impression of real users. I've never met a user who even "liked" frames, and that includes me. Also, perhaps I missed a thread, but I've wondering if the increasing use of tabs has overcome any "new window" reluctance. I have FF set to open new windows in tabs and it looks like IE 7 does the same. Is that correct? Christie Mason .. If you have a complex site which involves lots of page swapping, there is still nothing to beat frames for simplicity, ease of navigation etc. Users simply love them! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Page Structure
IF you are doing user-centric design, then the question becomes "What's the most important part of the page to the USER?" Once you look at it from that viewpoint, then the company name is not the most important. The company name has a visual importance for branding and keeping the clients happy, but it does not have the highest contextual importance for users and SEO. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: Thierry Koblentz I don't know why we're talking about Newspapers and/or Books here. This is not print isn't? There is not such thing that covers and front pages on the web. IMO, because users can get to a document through various ways, I believe the company name is - in fact - the most important thing on the page. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs
That may be because most people don't know it's an acronym. Foobar IS F.U.B.A.R. Christie Mason -Original Message- Rick Faaberg The only thing I can think of is: are you aware of the origin of "fubar" (which is the correct spelling of foobar)? It's totally weird how usage of "fubar" has been so distorted on the web. Whatever. Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Who's putting javascript in my code?
Are you using FireFox, IE or something else? I think that's browser based and it's something I've ignored but also been curious about. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: Carol Doersom To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:12 PM Subject: [WSG] Who's putting _javascript_ in my code? This line of js appears in the head of my site's pages:<script language='_javascript_' src='http://127.0.0.1:1027/js.cgi?pca&r=28253'>script>and this following the :<script language='_javascript_'>postamble();script>I didn't put them there. They're generating 4 warnings in Tidy and keeping my html from validating. They're also appearing in the source of every web page I look at--even at this list's site--though they don't always result in exactly the same warnings.What I did put in my html is: <script type="text/_javascript_" src="script.js">script>. And I have all my _javascript_ in that file.Where are those other 2 lines coming from...and what do they do? tia,Carol
RE: [WSG] making money out of web standards
I think you've hit on something with the thought below. It's easier to sell "control" than quicker loading, etc. People buy based on emotion and then justify that decision based on facts. Control is a strong buying motivator. Acceptance is another. One or the other motivator will work with most people. How can you tie standards based development to acceptance and/or respect? Name dropping works. X, Y, Z are all highly respected companies in your industry that successfully apply a standards based approach and they're some of the most highly respected organizations Looks at the non-standards sites of laughable A, B, and C. Point out a few problems. The subtext is that if they don't use standards on their site, their competitors and customers will laugh at them. For control oriented people, I'd never use the word "compliance". They don't do things to comply to other's ideas of how something should be, they expect others to comply to their control. For them, I'd go with showing them how using standards increases their control over the look and quality of content. They can control any changes to their (use lots of "you" and "your", site standards very easily w/o the expense and tedious slogging of changing each page individually. They can control who sees what, when, how. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Wong Chin Shin ... THEN, I show them how I can change the entire layout just by changing the CSS file ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] The Holy Grail ... CSS Liquid Three-Column Layout
I've been playing with http://www.saila.com/usage/layouts/ and so far the results have been good. Christie Mason ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Another amazing css zen garden entry
Yes, I did use the correct URL, you may want to use something like Tiny URL for future links. I may have missed some opacity in IE but I didn't really feel like I missed anything, the page was still very wow. Unfortunately, I'm not fond of wow. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rimantas Liubertas Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 7:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Another amazing css zen garden entry On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:27:16 -0600, Christie Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In my Firefox .9.3, both sites only show text and some colored backgrounds. I had to view them in IE to see the wow factors. > > Christie Mason I am absoultely sure you did not see real wow factors with IE - for the very simple reason - lack of PNG opacity support in IE. I guess many did not use correct url: http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.css-praxis.de/cssocean/zenoc ean.css URL must end with "zenocean.css". Regards, Rimantas ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Another amazing css zen garden entry
In my Firefox .9.3, both sites only show text and some colored backgrounds. I had to view them in IE to see the wow factors. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Laakso Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Another amazing css zen garden entry On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:36:18 +1100, russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.css-praxis.de/cssocean/zenoc > ean.css > > Make sure you look in a good browser and scroll down! > Russ > Thanks Russ, but as for myself, I believe I like the unpretentious http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://lyuanqing.freeprohost.com/verdure/css.css by his young man: Name: Lim Yuan Qing ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
Instead of going negative, how about going positive? Most people don't know that they have a choice of browsers and they're scared that if they install a different one, that the computer will "break". To "help" people understand that the browser world is wider than IE, I put this linked notice on my site. "Why is this site best viewed with FireFox? Try it and experience the difference." Christie Mason ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
