Re: [WSG] major web site project
Hi Marvin, Sounds great. I love Star Trek, but I'll bet you know much more about it than me, so I'll respond re disability/accessibility. For inspiration, I googled disability database and found a few sites including http://disabilitydatabase.org/ which might be worth checking out. Finding data sources might be the biggest challenge with the subject of disability. I found http://www.infouse.com/disabilitydata/home/index.php and http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/disability/disability.html which are both about the US, if that's of interest. Looks like there is lots of room for improvement if you can find data that you'd like to present. The disability database site seems to be built in Drupal, at least the favicon is the Drupal logo. There's an accessibility group on groups.drupal.org and I follow @ezufelt who's very involved in Drupal accessibility on Twitter. Good luck with your project, and let us know what you decide to do. Best, Marilyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)
Speaking as both publications, graphic and web designer, the real problem has always been that the title resides in the head, not in a title tag inside the body.H1 is reserved for the title of the page.In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings.This confusion wouldn't have happened if HTML had a T1 and maybe T2 tag (title and subtitle).So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page.Of course, all web pages aren't documents, which confuses the issue. But I believe this is the back story, at least it's what makes sense to me. Best regards,Marilyn Langfeldwww.langfeldesigns.comm...@langfeldesigns.com+1.202.390.8847 mobile On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:08 AM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Thanks for your responses...Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of equal importance.Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on one area of each page and the impact that could have in search resultsbut that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic structure. Is it not entirely plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally important area of the page?I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing people notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding.I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines indexingbut I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that suggests Google (in particular) degrade the rank of your site based on the existence of more than one H1. Quoting Yuval Ararat yara...@gmail.com: Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. SEO guys have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the punishment is not severe so not every one of the major sites obey. In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header taghttp://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#headerand the existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to structure of pages to be.On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before... Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag. The title of each page is also a H1. Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably better if there was only one H1 on each page. Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory? I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on my return email doesn't have "SEO expert" on it. Many thanks. Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ****** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumb as Section Heading H1
I thought it would be interesting to see what Yahoo says (and does) about breadcrumbs in their pattern library: http:// developer.yahoo.net/ypatterns/pattern_breadcrumbs.php They don't discuss the HTML, but looking at the source, I see they use an unordered list in some sort of template, as you can see below, and style with CSS. Seems an okay solution to me. What do you think? div id=container !-- InstanceBeginEditable name=breadcrumb -- !--span id=ytestedimg src=images/ip.gif/span-- span ul !-- *Bread crumb* -- lia href=http://developer.yahoo.net/;Yahoo! Developer Network/anbsp;nbsp;/li lia href=index.phpDesign Pattern Library/ anbsp;nbsp;/li lispan class=breadcrumbBreadcrumbs/span/li /ul/span!-- InstanceEndEditable -- /div Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 AM, Rob Mientjes wrote: On 09/02/06, Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While I believe accessibility is an important design issue, is there legal precedent for suing someone for poor design? It seems a bit like suing Mickey Dees for spilling hot coffee in the lap... Yes, but spilling hot coffee in the lap isn't at all relevant to goodor poor design, nor to accessibility. Not a great comparison, sorry ;) And yes, I'd also assume there are precedents of people in wheelchairs suing a company over poor design. In fact, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) has an enforcement responsibility, though not specifically for the Internet, since it was established prior to the growth of the Web. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/enforce.htm What is new(ish) is extending the accessibility argument to private companies, since Section 508 applies only to the US government (and is not taken very seriously, IMHO). See Derek Featherstone's post on the WaSP site: http, Taking Aim at Target(.com): http://www.webstandards.org/ I see the Web as tremendously liberating for the disabled, and partially-abled or differently-abled, as well as the rapidly growing senior population. Being able to shop online may save an entire day's worth of effort for some. Being able to type instead of sign may facilitate a huge amount of conversation between hearing and non- hearing. Etc. We may not think of it that way if that's not our own experience, but maybe we should try to imagine life without sight or hearing, etc. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility. __ Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the sightless. ... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing vision, said plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year student at UC Berkeley. Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would also make it more navigable by those without vision problems http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p __ Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
On Feb 8, 2006, at 4:04 PM, Stephen Stagg wrote: Why do we need an HTML 5? Can't we dispose of HTML and just use styled XML in the future? It would be one helluva way to enforce standards, and we wouldn't have all this wrangling over exactly which element to use. _ Here's a start: http://www.whatwg.org/ As well as I understand, there are dissenting voices about the development of the web: those who want to follow W3C's recommendations towards XHTML, those who want The Semantic Web based on XML, and those who want to extend HTML against the wishes of W3C. Plus those who don't want to change at all. I don't know much more than that, but I'm sure others on the list will fill in the blanks. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
I'm going to stick my neck out here folks... PDF presentation on the web is getting better. Example: http:// www.bamagazine.com/?Click=40472 I tried to download one of the pdfs (in Safari 2.0.3) and it opened instead. I actually preferred reading it in Safari to opening Acrobat and reading it there. Surprised myself. I wouldn't want pdf to supplant HTML web pages, but for those visually complex documents/presentations that don't work well in HTML, I can see a use for pdf display in the browser. And Adobe is adding accessibility aids (depends on the designer to implement them though). I think I prefer this to Flash. Soon, I'm afraid we'll see lots of Flash and pdf combined, so get ready. One day you may wish there were more plain pdfs, instead of whatever hybrid Flash/pdf becomes. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox being naughty
On Feb 1, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: Guys and Gals, Perhaps you can help me with this mystery. I built this site over a year ago http://holidayrealty.com, and recently Firefox (I'm using 1.5 (could be the issue)) has stopped displaying my background image on the main content (on subpages only) and is instead just making the background black! I even went into the CSS and added a background-color: #FF and it didn't affect the behavior at all. I get a double Flash image in Safari 2.0.3 which pushes the text below the box into the background on the homepage. Double image in other pages, but the main text box stretches down to enclose the copy in other pages. I get the background, though, both in Safari and Mac Firefox 1.5. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] pdf graphics
On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:59 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote: are the graphics vectors? Opening from Adobe illustrator would keep everything nice and editable. -kvnmcwebn I second trying Illustrator first, Photoshop next. Recent versions of both will open the files. Illustrator's underlying format is pdf, so you can almost always open a pdf with Illustrator, then reestablish layers yourself if you have to and change measurements to pixels and make the size 100% or an even multiple of the pixel size you want-- fonts may be a problem if you don't have the same ones on your machine that were used in the pdf. Photoshop has a pdf import dialog box that allows you to decide on the page if it's multipage pdf, ppi, rgb vs cmyk, size. There's no layer support if the original was made in InDesign or Quark, but layers may transfer if the graphic was made in a new version of Illustrator. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] pdf graphics
On Jan 13, 2006, at 10:14 AM, Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] wrote: You can export JPG out of Adobe right? Yes, the latest version of Photoshop saves to .jpg, .gif. png .ico (if you install a plug-in, one of which is donationware), as well as having a Save for web export in .jpg, .gif, .png-8, .png-24 and WBMP that helps you to optimize the result for the Web). The newest Illustrator also has a Save for Web, but I prefer to use Photoshop. You can also open and save to .svg from Illustrator. I've been working with Textorizer ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/ langfeldesigns/sets/1691963/ ) which is outputs .svg which I've opened and manipulated in Illustrator. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I'll take another stab at this, though others may disagree. I would define CSS-driven as probably requiring external CSS file(s), as opposed inline CSS enhancement (your term) per page. That separates the presentation (in the CSS files) from the content cleanly and allows the CSS file(s) to control the presentation of all your pages, not just one at a time with inline CSS. It's not clear how the CSS is written in your example. Can you clarify? I may still be missing your point. Are you asking if using lists is always better than using tables? Depends on the content. A definition list can work sometimes, but I find it's pushing the limits sometimes. I find people on this list aim to push HTML and XHTML to their semantic limits, from which I learn a lot. But IMHO, HTML and XHTML are very limited semantically, especially when compared to XML, so sometimes we go beyond the practical. Often discussions about tabular data displayed as definition lists pushes the limit for me. But again, I have no idea if that's what you're considering. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Dec 12, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Emma Dobrescu wrote: Thanks for the answer Marilyn. As I wrote before, I never implied that tables are meant to be used for layouts.I for one don't use tables ...haven't used them for quite a long time. But that doesn't mean they can't be used, if tabular data is involved. And obviously I see no hacking in using tables. I am sorry if you assumed that I meant using tables for layout in my previous posts.As someone mentioned, this is the WSG - thus we are supposed to know a few things about standards and use them. Let's suppose you have a page that involves tabular data. You got two versions of this page, one built with divs/spans/lists and another one built with tables. Both versions are css enhanced. Why would you call one css driven and the other one not? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!
Looks fine in Mac Firefox 1.5 and Safari 2.02. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Dec 7, 2005, at 8:13 AM, designer wrote: Dear colleagues, Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleThe Area/title meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine. However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved it as .php. All seems fine, including IE. You can see my test page at: http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK? Does it fall apart for anybody? (mac esp?) and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' be doing (Lachlan?) Many thanks, -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.
I'm pretty sure this is not the forum for this topic though. -Nigel Often when we discuss accessibility, we ignore needs of people with low or no bandwidth. So I think this topic is a great reminder that accessibility is much broader than solely meeting the needs of the disabled, although that's clearly a baseline to be met too. I've been working with the World Health Organization and other UN agencies for years. They (at least some folks there) see the need for accessible web information in health and development all across the world. It's not for us to decide who would have good uses for inexpensive computers. I do wonder if adults would let children keep such a valuable tool to themselves. I'll be watching to see what happens. I also figure that this is a good first step in connecting people who are so far unconnected to the Internet. I figure their strategy was to raise funds and interest by limiting the project to children. But it will certainly spread from there, if it actually comes to fruition. I've worked with a project called Health InterNetwork, which birthed HIN Access to Research Initiative at WHO. HIN succeeded in getting the really big medical publishers to allow access to lots of medical journals to research institutes and health organizations throughout the developing world through a WHO sub-site. ( http://www.who.int/ hinari/en/ ) I also work with Knowledge Management at WHO ( http://www.who.int/kms/ en/ ) I've just finished a report that was presented at WSIS, with lots of statistics on ICT and health indicators for the WHO regions, for those who are interested in the broad topic. The pdf is available at the above address. In the next year, the research on a country level will be added to the WHO site and will be published in book form. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The Big Lie about CSS
Hi Patrick, FYI, Blogger does use templates which will update earlier posts as well as current posts when you make a change to them. I'm not a programmer, so I can't say how (thinking javascript), but I just made a change to my navigation thoughout my site. Then I made it separately to my Blogger blog template and checked to see if it's showing on older pages, and it is. I also opened an older HTML page in the archives and the change has been made there as well. I don't disagree with you, but wanted to keep the record straight (US expression). Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com On Sep 19, 2005, at 6:39 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote: Marco van Hylckama Vlieg One can either manipulate the way output looks by dynamically changing the CSS or by dynamically changing the HTML output. I prefer the latter to be honest. But the question is: why do you prefer it? Just gut feeling, or any valuable/measurable reason? Also: of course, if you have dynamically generated pages, template driven CMSs etc, it's easy to change the HTML output. However, for those still publishing sites by hand, without an automated system behind it, a change in the markup on all pages would require a complete re-upload of the entire site. Thinking about systems like Blogger where (from what I gather...not using it myself) individual blog entries are actually written out as complete HTML files, a change to the markup on all pages would require a complete rebuild of the site as well. Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The Big Lie about CSS
Hi Patrick, I know, but I thought Blogger then had to go through a (server-side) process of rebuilding every single static version of the pages, which on a large blog can take quite a while...or maybe I'm thinking of Movable Type? Ah, whatever...you catch my drift, which is surprisingly coherent for a Monday ;) I'm sure you are correct about the server-side work involved. And yes, it does take some time (you see a spinning clock hand while it's doing it's thing), but it's surprisingly easy to do. The other nice thing about Blogger is that many if not all of the templates are well designed. Mine was originally designed for Blogger by Zeldman. I've modified it a lot, but the framework is his. Unfortunately, I added Haloscan trackback and comments, which make it fail validation. Otherwise it validates XHTML 1.0 strict, which is think is fantastic for a free blogging tool. All cms's and blogging tools should do so well! Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Click here--reference
I'm working on a site that has lots of click here links. I believe it's considered bad form to use click here rather than making the link on words that better represent the title of the page being linked. Does anyone know a rule I can point to (and send my client to read) re accessibility and click here? Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/noClickHere Fantastic, just what I needed. I Googled it, but didn't find that page. Thanks very much. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/click.html should help Dear Brian, Thanks for the reference. It's great. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
Since the questioner specifically asked for online resources I held off a response. But what the heck! I bought O'Reilly's HTML XHTML: The Definitive Guide and love it. I go back to it any time I have a question, and can read it anywhere, not just in front of my monitor. And in their introduction, the authors say they wrote it for beginners as well as advanced users. Works for me. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Mordechai Peller wrote: Nick Gleitzman wrote: In general, you should recommend that they examine the code of well written, semantically correct pages. Sure, but first you have to teach them to recognise such things... Learning what the tags are is easy, especially if you have a chart at hand. Learning how to properly use said tags is somewhat trickier (though not much). Also, an important teaching technique is to use examples (good and bad). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cover me, I have a flash question
Take a look here, at Mike Industries, http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:45 PM, Ted Drake wrote: x-tad-smallerHello all/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerOur marketing department sent me a postcard with fancy fonts and wanted to put the entire image in one of the web pages, after shaking and breaking into a cold sweat, I remembered there was a technique to replace text dynamically with flash. I thought this would be better than throwing up ... a large image into the page. It was featured on the ESPN site./x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller /x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerI could only find a reference to the php version on alistapart. Does anyone know where I could find this? Has anyone had any experience using it? Any feedback or suggestions?/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerThanks/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerTed Drake/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerWeb Content Editor/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerCSA Travel Protection/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerhttp://www.csatravelprotection.com/x-tad-smaller
Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?
Dear Ben, I think that blogs perform much of the role you envision as going missing. They are or can be free, easy to set up and use, fine for a wide range of uses (with a little fiddling), etc. Blogger's templates are xhtml 1.0 strict, though some of the extensions mess that up (I know because I have one, and Haloscan extensions don't validate). In the same vein, I wonder about Microsoft's new blogging environment. It could pollute things for years. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 24, 2005, at 7:33 PM, Ben Curtis wrote: I was thinking about your stereotypical Angelfire / Tripod user, the beginner hobbyist. I think about them a *lot*. If it weren't for the ease of publishing, the web would not have taken off. Doubt me? How many other networked document protocols created in the early 90's or before do you use today? I know of a dozen or so -- I only use HTTP/HTML. I think it's because it was the only one that could be written so sloppily that we could publish things *while* we learned. I am concerned that the growing rigidity of the code will lock out the hobbyists. I believe we are going through a similar transition as early radio, after the hobbyist crystal-set owners stopped broadcasting because they couldn't keep up with the rules they needed to follow. However, without those rules much of the radio culture would not have formed. It is vital, IMO, to have advanced, capable standards existing side-by-side with easy, flexible, and immediately useful means for each individual to grow into them. I think the W3C needs to produce more flavors of XHTML than just the single specification... I'm thinking more along the lines of: XHTML 2.0 - Simple XHTML 2.0 - Contracted Tags + Attributes XHTML 2.0 - Complete Where the Simple edition is a vastly simplified version where there's less emphasis on content/presentation separation, such as greater support for attribute styles and perhaps a LayoutTable> element? Where each LayoutCell> has a Context Order informing screen-readers in what order to read the content? A simple, advanced DTD that is not XML-rigid would be very good. I'm not sure tables are needed; our newbie coders think in tables because that's what they know. Tomorrow's newbies will think differently. What is needed is specifically a DTD that merges presentation, content, and behavior, without burdening user-agents that are already built for the more strict, rigid, powerful stuff. For example, an easier way to attach inline styles and scripts than our single event handlers and style tags. div SBorder=1 sWidth=500 AttachMouse=follow()> The content of this div is 500px wide and follows the mouse. It is not xml-compliant, but its attributes clearly map to specific CSS standards, with certain, common assumptions. /DIV> ...or some such. Something that allows the newbies to see one small bit of code do something specific. From here they can graduate to removing styles to classes, behaviors to scripts, and so forth. It is this merged ability that makes beginning print layout hobbyists opt for embedded graphics, styles, and macros in a Word document over the professional layout designer using the separated Quark method. It is worth maintaining, and should be deliberately designed to foster self-propelled education in the proper methods. I was also thinking of bandwidth conservation, especilly with the mobile device market, and thought up a variant of XHTML where only the essential elements are included, and represented using the minimum of letters, ditto for their attributes Don't worry about tag space. Tags compress *very* well with http compression, to the point where your code may not save any space. Note my use of my proposed universal closing tag '/>' Then the bad habit this induces would be to start throwing unneeded extra universal-closers everywhere you can think of. Ick. Just out of curiosity... how do I get things like these formalised into an RFC Document and sent to the W3C for review? I'd start here: http://www.w3.org/Mail/ -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Correct styling of text material submitted as a table
I hesitate to ask, now that the table thread has quieted down, but here goes: How should I mark up text that's submitted as a Word table, especially when each cell may contain a mix of partial sentences, full sentences, list items? Sometime with three or four columns, and eight or ten rows? Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [WSG] Correct styling of text material submitted as a table
Here's a simple example. Just two columns, two rows, one set of column heads and row heads within the main cells. Column One: Column Head: Objectives Recommended action lines for WHO and Member States Cell One: x-tad-smallerPolicy /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller- Ensure public policies support eective and equitable e-health systems. - Facilitate a collaborative approach to e-health development. - Monitor internationally-accepted goals and targets for e-health. - Represent the health perspective in international fora on major ICT issues. - Strengthen ICT in health education and training in countries, supporting a multi-lingual and multicultural approach.Strategies: Development of national e-health strategies, reflecting principles of transparency, ethics, equity, and cost-eectiveness. Coordination and collaboration: Coordination of national ehealth policies to address common areas of concern. Collaboration with other sectors in ICT policy, standards, and technical and infrastructure development. Partnerships: Development of transparent, equitable and ethical public-private partnerships for improving e-health content, capacity and infrastructure. Advocacy and monitoring: Participation in appropriate UN venues for ICT action, such as World Summit for the Information Society. Collaboration with UN agencies and partners in monitoring achievements toward internationally-agreed targets and goals. Cell Two: /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerEquitable access /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Commitment by WHO, Member States and partners to reaching health communities and all populations, including vulnerable groups, with ehealth appropriate to their needs. Collaboration: Collaboration with the private sector to improve access to e-health resources. Advocacy to highlight challenges, set the policy agenda, ensure a rights-based approach, and engage key sectors. International collaboration in capacity building efforts, to improve access to e-health by institutions, professionals and citizens. Column Two /x-tad-smallerRecommended action lines for WHO and Member States Cell One (relates to Policy): x-tad-smaller /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerQuality, security and safety /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller- Commitment to ensuring that e-health for citizens, patients and professionals meets quality, safety, and ethical standards. Development of strategies and policies to ensure that e-health is developed and implemented with a citizen-centered, rights-based approach, emphasizing confidentiality, privacy and security. Support for quality standards for health internet and web sites, through international and national action and internet domain policy. Multi-sectoral collaboration for developing evidence-based ehealth standards and norms. Cell Two (relates to Equitable Access): /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerBest use /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Analyze e-health evolution, impact on health; anticipate emerging challenges and opportunities. Provide evidence, information and guidance to support policy, best practice, and management of e-health systems and services. Identify and address needs for e-health norms and standards, innovation and research.Technical assistance and capacity building: Development of assessment methods, standards and tools to guide best use of ICT based on evidence; improve access and satisfaction, quality and economy of care. Establishment of a Global E-Health Observatory to document and analyze developments and trends, inform policy and practice in countries, and report regularly on e-health status worldwide. Establishment of national centers and networks of excellence for best practice, policy coordination, and technical assistance. International, multi-sectoral collaboration to improve compatibility of administrative and technical e-health systems. /x-tad-smaller End table I receive lots of material for print that's set up like this in a table format, with relationships both horizontally and vertically. I haven't actually been asked to make this into a web page, but would like to be prepared, if and when I am asked. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Jan 14, 2005, at 2:48 PM, Ted Drake wrote: x-tad-smallerHi Marilyn/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerAs the one that started the last table thread, I would recommend providing us with an example. Your request, like mine, can be interpreted in many ways./x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Ted/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smaller-Original Message-/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerFrom:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Marilyn Langfeld [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerSent:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Friday, January 14, 2005 11:47 AM/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerTo:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerSubject:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller [WSG] Correct styling of text material submitted as a table/x
Re: [WSG] Correct styling of text material submitted as a table
Okay. I feel more confident then, if given text like my example. Thanks for the example markup. That does help. I was beginning to wonder, after the earlier discussion, whether only numeric data could be semantically correct in a table. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 14, 2005, at 4:09 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Marilyn Langfeld wrote: *Here's a simple example. Just two columns, two rows, one set of column heads and row heads within the main cells. Ok, right, that clarifies it. In this case you are, in effect, providing tabular data - that wasn't quite clear from the original email. If I understand it correctly, here's the structure I'd suggest.
Re: [WSG] XHTML complient in-browser Rich Text Editor.
Only thing you didn't mention is it's PC-only. Not good for us Mac folks! Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Jan 10, 2005, at 4:24 AM, Johan Steenkamp wrote: XStandard is very good - there is a freeware version. For my money the commercial version is worth it and not expensive compared to others commercial XHTML editors. Very easy to add custom mark-up to support styles and drag/drop image/file upload is neat. Johan www.assetnow.com Original Message From: Wong Chin Shin [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Sat, Jan-8-2005 7:17 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] XHTML complient in-browser Rich Text Editor. 1) HTMLArea RC3 - pretty darned powerful. suspect support. It's been at RC3 since the stone ages and nothing much since then. I'm also not very sure about the validity of the output code since changing font families will churn out font> tags by default (didn't try to explore changing this as I moved to FCKEditor by then). Not easy to set up either. 2) FCKEditor - my choice right now. Support is pretty much a single-handed effort by the author but it's one of the most active projects on sourceforge right now. Visually very rich and it's one of the easiest to set up so far. One thing I love is the provision of plug-ins to the variety of server-side technologies like ASP, ASP.net, PHP etc. 3) TinyMCE - a little light on features, good to use if you're just letting users access to the basic stuff. 4) XStandard - commercial-ware so I didn't really evaluate it much. But since it's supposed to be fully XHTML-compliant I guess there's something to be said for that. 5) http://www.intelimen.com.br/lib/editor/index.php - not evaluated yet 6) http://www.snippetmaster.com/index.php - not evaluated yet 7) http://kupu.oscom.org/ - not evaluated yet, from my first look it seemed really basic and slow. 8) http://sourceforge.net/projects/phpwebeditor - not evaluated yet 9) http://walter.sourceforge.net/ - not evaluated yet One thing that you may want to watch out is whether they allow editing of individual table CELL attributes. No, not for more abuse of table-based layouts but it does have its uses sometimes. Wong -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 7:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] XHTML complient in-browser Rich Text Editor. Hi Everyone, I am looking for a lean browser based text editor which creates valid XHTML output. Basically I would use a normal text area, but the site I am developing requires the ability to add hyper links, paragraphs, and change the text style. I want something that will automatically run (i.e. I want to avoid having the user manually install something)... I have looked at xstandard (http://www.xstandard.com) and I'm pretty impressed, but I found it to be really slow to load as it might be a bit too rich on functionality for my needs... Just wondered if anyone has any other recommendations for a nice simple RTE??? Cheers, Matt ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] G* addressing standards
I agree with Patrick here. My only concern is with those web designers on IE/WIN, if avoiding px, who make type that will display much too small on other platforms/browsers. And the converse for me, now that I'm redesigning my site using % type ( http://www.langfeldesigns.com/test/index.html ). I've got to make the type a bit small so it doesn't display huge on IE. Not at all an insurmountable problem, but one more thing to learn to do. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 7, 2005, at 8:13 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Rimantas Liubertas wrote: So we may as well end up spending time and money to implement something what is never used. How much time and money does it cost to avoid using px (which does cause real world problems in the erroneous implementation of IE/Win, and therefore calls for an interim solution in the spirit of WCAG 1.0 guideline 10) in favour of ems? Sure, if you're not too hot on CSS, making use of the cascade to avoid inheritance issues, or if you're still stuck with pixel perfect design, then sure it's a problem...but please let's not blow this out of proportion. Saying that the percentage of users who need it is minimal, and that those users should really change their settings to ensure they can use your site, is not really a valid set of arguments, imho. What I see as a biggest overestimation is the idea that user _wants_ to control something on your page. No! User wants content of your page. Which is a bugger if they then can't read it, because the designer decided that he/she prefers an illegible, but cool looking, pixel size. Or functionality of your application. Or whatever. And d) is very important here: users are much more comfortable with hitting back button than in setting font-sizes. So if you committed a sin of infamous font-size-too-small and it is small bellow acceptable level, I'd say there will be one visitor going somewhere else, than one visitor adjusting font-size. But that's an assumption too. Exactly, it's one assumption against another. Having worked directly with users with various levels of visual impairment, however, I can tell you that those who need font sizing are well aware of how to do it. Yes, they're also aware that there are advanced options that lets them completely ignore a site's chosen font size, but they don't see the need to enable them if the author is considerate enough not to stop them from simply bumping up the text size a notch if needed. And for these users in the know, a quick CTRL+MOUSE WHEEL UP/DOWN is a lot less of a hassle to do on a per-site basis than digging through accessibility options and disabling things for *all* sites (even the ones that show a minimal amount of consideration). Don't use pixels. Don't yell, if someone uses. ...but gently remind them that there is another way which can eliminate the possibility of problems for certain users with minimal effort. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] when to post, was - asking a PC user for a page check
Hi folks, Good discussion. I'd only like to add that for some of us, myself included, looking at sites is one way we can 'pay back' the help we've gotten. I can't yet help others with problems, so I don't mind checking (when I have time). But I also don't want more posts than necessary. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards
I wanted to add that I've had success with small businesses by describing how easily their sites can be redesigned using CSS (show them CSS Zen Garden). If they've already gone through a redesign, they've been impressed. If not, and they are fearful of making mistakes with the first go, their fears can be alleviated. That, added to SEO optimization, works better than describing band width issues, for me. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:53 AM, Wong Chin Shin wrote: I agree on the control issue. Control is a strong selling point. However, most server-side technologies (ASP, PHP etc) can do this too. It won't be a fresh selling point. UNLESS, we approach it this way: To modify website templates using ASP and PHP, we need some pretty good programming knowledge. And to employ a programmer isn't exactly cheap. Using CSS to change the layout is not programming per se. In fact, it allows a design professional (who's not from a computing background) control over the layout without having to collaborate directly with programmer. Wong
Re: [WSG] an even more amazing css zen garden entry
Ouch! Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 24, 2004, at 9:38 AM, russ - maxdesign wrote: Now there were some people on-list who thought the last Zen Garden entry I posted lacked a certain wow factor. Well, how about this entry which seems to have it all... Style... Class... Wow... and lots of animation! http://brucelawson.co.uk/zengarden.htm :) Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Image Transitions Without Flash (URL fixed)
Hi Mordechai, Glad to help! I checked and Opera prefs show both Java and Javascript enabled. I just downloaded Opera 7. I thought it was only available for purchase, but see it's available with ads, as 6 is. Tried the slideshow. No transitions, but the slides to move now (is that because you fixed the show)--Java and Javascript both enabled out of the box. Went back to retry 6. Still stuck on slide 1. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 14, 2004, at 10:08 AM, Mordechai Peller wrote: Marilyn Langfeld wrote: On the Mac side, it works correctly in Firefox 1.0, Safari, 1.2.3, Netscape 7.2. The images change in IE 5.2 but no fade; nothing happens (stays on the first image and doesn't advance) in Opera 6.03. Thanks for the feedback. Regarding Opera 6, it either doesn't support setInterval() (which it claims to do) or you have JavaScript disabled (which is my guess). Whatever the case might be, you helped find a bug which I didn't previously noticed because I was using an odd number of images: it skips every other image because setting opacity to 0 is only equivalent to being invisible IF OPACITY IS SUPPORTED! Otherwise, only the front picture is visible. Ironically, fixing the problem would actually simplify the code. Where as now I need to track in which direction I'm fading (front to back of back to front), after I fix it I won't. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Image Transitions Without Flash (URL fixed)
On the Mac side, it works correctly in Firefox 1.0, Safari, 1.2.3, Netscape 7.2. The images change in IE 5.2 but no fade; nothing happens (stays on the first image and doesn't advance) in Opera 6.03. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 14, 2004, at 12:08 AM, Mordechai Peller wrote: Mordechai Peller wrote: http://localhost/test/Image-Transitions-Without-Flash.html Ooops!! :-[ I cut and pasted the wrong address. One onf the downsides of having a local Web server. While I suppose I could give you the IP, my firewall might cause a bit of a problem. :-D Here's a more usefull address: http://testing.pellerweb.com/Image-Transitions-Without-Flash.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs
Well, I thought it was over, so I didn't send this link. But, since it's not quite, here's a link to several others that might interest some... http://user-experience.org/uefiles/breadcrumbs/ Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 6, 2004, at 3:34 PM, Ben Curtis wrote: Mordechai, I too enjoy splitting hairs. I hope no one objects to my chiming in. Breadcrumbs are a construct without a solid definition, from which I think much disagreement arises. Typically, they reflect the notional path to a page (the path according to where the user believes themselves to be), although often they reflect the logical path (where the file is in the directory structure) or the historical path (where the user had gone to get to where they are). Historical paths are linear. The trouble with using ordered lists for them is not so much the semantics as programming: how do you recognize the difference between a click forward, then back to abort, then forward to the place the user intended, from an honest forward-back-forward to something else? Well, those sorts of breadcrumbs I find tedious because I've already got a back button and Amazon certainly is trying to patent The Page You Made anyway. Both logical and notional paths are derived from a hierarchal tree but are themselves linear. (Non-tree hierarchies are possible, with non-parent/child cross-linking, but why confuse the discussion more?) Between the current node (the page) and the greatest ancestor node (the home page) there exists only a single path of nodes in a specific order. This lineage is, by definition, linear and ordered. This makes it a prime candidate for an ordered list; this is what ordered lists are. Many arguments in this thread used the words hierarchy and order and list to explain a problem that was really about completeness. Can an ordered list survive the removal of a member? Depends on the relationship between list items. A notional path certainly could survive such a removal; civilization does not collapse because our addresses on postal mail do not include the county even though they include the city and state. A logical path could not survive such a removal, any more than you could drive to California and enter Los Angeles before entering Los Angeles County. Does your lineage denote the next ancestor/descendant (i.e., parent/child) relationship? Or does it merely indicate an ancestor/descendant relationship? Is it notional or logical? Is it complete? These answers are about personal style and the intent of the breadcrumbs as a solution. The nature of the solution depends on your answers. However, the path is the order and not the items. -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] NN4 - Anyone Care?
What I've read is that large companies/institutions that still use Windows NT 4 also use NN4. That seems to be the problem, and these large installations don't want to update since they have fewer virus, worm, adware, etc. problems. The old if it's not broke, don't fix it idea, I think. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 5, 2004, at 12:01 AM, Chris Stratford wrote: Just a question... Why is there such an emphasis on NN4? Who actually still uses this? Don't say universities because they would update... So who actually uses it? Why is it more important to worry about NN4 than Konqueror or Safari? Is NN4 still avaliable for download anywhere but Evolt Cheers! -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] NN4 - Anyone Care?
I wasn't justifying, just describing what I've read. I think it stinks, too. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 5, 2004, at 7:53 AM, Mordechai Peller wrote: Marilyn Langfeld wrote: What I've read is that large companies/institutions that still use Windows NT 4 also use NN4. That seems to be the problem, and these large installations don't want to update since they have fewer virus, worm, adware, etc. problems. The old if it's not broke, don't fix it idea, I think. But NN4 IS broke! They could update to Firefox while still avoiding the viruses, etc. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Code or Markup
Well, speaking again as a print designer, markup is a typesetting industry term meaning applying styles (yes style tags) to text (and has been for a very long time). Used to be, you'd mark up text to send to the typographer. They'd apply that markup to text in whatever technology was employed at the time (hot metal to phototype). With desktop publishing wiping out that industry, anyone who styles text (read content) is marking it up--whether in Word or BBedit, WordPress or Dreamweaver. I'd say that CSS is a markup language developed to separate markup from coding, Which is why CSS works together with XSLT to style XML. I don't know the history. Was CSS developed first for XSLT/XML and then applied to HTML? Or vice versa? Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 2, 2004, at 8:08 AM, Mark Wonsil wrote: Going to Merriam-Webster: Code, n. 1 : a systematic statement of a body of law; especially : one given statutory force 2 : a system of principles or rules moral code> ... 5 : a set of instructions for a computer Markup, n. 1 : an amount added to the cost price to determine the selling price; broadly : PROFIT 2 : a U.S. Congressional committee session at which a bill is put into final form before it is reported out. Mark up, v. 1 : to put a markup on Markup language, n. 1 : a system (as HTML or SGML) for marking or tagging a document that indicates its logical structure (as paragraphs) and gives instructions for its layout on the page for electronic transmission and display. I think that we computer professionals do terrible things to language. We make nouns into verbs (do maintenance instead of maintain) and vice-cera. Historically, marking up is an action but the tokens used are now called markup. SGML, XHTML, etc. are languages with defined grammars, just like Cobol. Instead of using a Common Business Oriented Language, we use a markup languages. We don't say that Cobol code is business, it's code used for business purposes. So I would say that XHTML is the code we use to markup. XHTML even follows the paradigm that there is a source document that is consumed by a process to create a target document. That and with the definitions above, this would indicate that XHTML is code. After reading this, I must ask myself, what the hell does this have to do with Web Standards? Have we broken the code of the list? ;-) Mark back to work W. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Code or Markup
Thanks, Mark. That helps me understand my own confusion. The term markup has a profusion of uses! So all of the 'mls (html, xhtml, xml, sgml) are considered markup languages, but the markup is of content, not presentation and CSS is the presentation style language (which designers of yore called markup, just to confuse things a bit). And markup has other meanings, depending on context. Whew! Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Dec 2, 2004, at 9:52 AM, Mark Wonsil wrote: Marilyn asks: Was CSS developed first for XSLT/XML and then applied to HTML? Or vice versa? SGML existed first and DSSSL was used to style, but for a nice history see: http://www.webreference.com/authoring/style/sheets/cssseparate/chap1/1/index .html Mark W.
Re: [WSG] Mozilla / Safari Workaround
I'm about to leave, but can check it for you in about 6 hours or so. What's the address? I'm not sure any more.
Best regards,
Marilyn Langfeld
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1.301.598.3300 business phone
+1.301.598.0532 fax
+1.202.390.8847 mobile
On Dec 2, 2004, at 2:00 PM, Sam Hutchinson wrote:
That is some very kind advice Patrick, thanks.
I have implemented the fixes to the main index.php file, and have dropped
the newsfeeds for now as they were causing some serious validation issues.
The main index.php file now validates fully as valid xhtml and css and works
in Moz / Firebird as intended. Just have to give the homepage some proper
content and work on validating the rest of the site now :)
Anyone running latest Safari on mac that can check the page for me please?
Thanks again.
I love this list :)
Sam
-
http://www.funkdub.info/
http://www.sammyco.co.uk/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 04:16
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Mozilla / Safari Workaround
Not going to fix all issues (like the two columns being slightly too wide to
fit),
but just concentrating on the background:
- as all your elements are outside of the normal document flow, your
container
only has normal content up until it hits #main. to redress this, add
#footer { clear: both; } at the end of funkdub2.css (or add the clear rule
in your
current #footer definition)
- now, you'll notice how the dropshadow image goes right down to the bottom,
and the footer is in the right place. however, the black background is not
shining
through, as it's obscured by the actual dropshadow gif. simple fix: edit
dropthis.gif
and make the central bit (currently white) transparent. this way, the black
of the
container's background colour can show through
Hope this makes some kind of sense,
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
-Original Message-
From: Sam Hutchinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 02 December 2004 15:57
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Mozilla / Safari Workaround
Managed to get other php pages working properly, but having
(different)
issues on both Moz Safari for the following page:
http://www.funkdub.info/index.php - the background is staying
punched up.
Cant see where the code or css is going wrong.
...would be interested to see if anyone could suggest a fix,
as this is
letting the rest of the site down :(
Cheers Ya'll
**
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
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**
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**
Re: [WSG] Site check please (especially Mac)
I see problems in both. In Safari 1.2.3, the navigation buttons separate (seeming to move progressively to the right), leaving funny white shapes where there should be a smooth grey curve. In IE 5.2, the footer is in the middle of the page, overlaying One House Productions - is... Looks good to me in Firefox 1.0. I'd love to make suggestions, but that will have to go to others more advanced in CSS than I. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Could I please have a few Mac users (both IE and Safari) have a look at this page and tell me if it's working right?
Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
Hi folks, As I said when I sent the first post, I thought it would be good to hear what an Adobe employee had to say about implementing CSS in their visual editor. especially in light of the discussion of searching to hire CSS-capable employees (especially designers). I would think that most designers (as opposed to programmers) begin web work in a visual editor like Dreamweaver or GoLive. It's critical for those programs to not only support CSS, but to have at least a CSS track, so that you can easily design in CSS. I've left feedback at the GoLive forum saying just that. On the other hand, the newest version of GoLive has a reworked and very usable CSS editor and preview. The only thing I've found it doesn't like is CSS shorthand. I've been a print designer for many years and only became interested in web design when CSS became really usable (I use styles extensively in print design, so CSS made sense to me immediately). And, like many folks, I got GoLive as a free extra in the Creative Suite. I was interested in John's (Adobe guy) comment because I never heard that there might be any problems implementing css in a visual editor. I don't have any answers, but I thought it might stimulate someone here to think on it. PS, my site needs help, but I'm too busy finishing up a 120 page print project at the moment to work on it. I know I need to work on font size (in pixels now), and class declarations, content on the homepage, table for main navigation, etc. I'll be asking for your help after I give it another go in December (in case you take a look and figure I'm pretty bad). And it's my first website. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Nov 26, 2004, at 2:10 AM, Rick Faaberg wrote: On 11/25/04 9:46 PM Sam - SS29 [EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out: As far as I see Adobe is not to bothered with webstandards, Macromedia see standard compliance as a string to DW bow. The adobe site is based old skool web design, surface looks nice but underneth its ugly. Sorry, but your post is idiotic. I use GoLive everyday and all the code it produces is standard. What GoLive are you using that produces non-standard code? Rick Faaberg Ps. Please learn to spell, and to use apostrophes for plurals and contractions correctly. Thanks! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
I was looking through the Adobe GoLive forum and came across this comment, which I thought would be of interest. I'm not trying to provoke a response here, but I think it's important to hear the perspective of an employee at Adobe who often helps people with CSS questions on their forum. And since most beginning web designers (accent on designers) probably try Dreamweaver or GoLive first, when learning web design. http://tinyurl.com/4jo25 free registration required, so I'm also quoting the post. Here's the comment, which is a little off topic of the thread, in answer to an earlier comment by Ron which is quoted: JohnDonaldson - 4:42pm Nov 22, 04 PST (#18 of 21) Edited: 22-Nov-2004 at 04:43pm Ron, it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this application were/are not hard core CSS scripters. Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they might be or should be important. The only model which interested them was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor, check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors? Just think for a moment about a model of markup structure separated from format, and the formatting model requires that the entire set of CSS rules must be re-read every single time that *anything* is edited in a page to verify if the context, specificity, and cascade positions remain the same or have changed. It doesn't matter a stuff if you hand-code markup and CSS; it matters quite a lot if you are trying to present something in a visual editor. Actually, I think given the way the standards are written and the way they work, both GoLive and Dreamweaver do a good job. There are certainly tools in both which try to put back together, or hide, the separation which lies at the heart of the structural markup/CSS formatting model. If you actually understand the way they are designed to separate, on the other hand, GoLive provides pretty good tools for creating your CSS. John Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile
Re: [WSG] User Interface Design Standards Template
I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but ATT has an online style guide here: http://www.att.com/style/ I haven't thoroughly investigated it, but it was recommended at an accessibility showcase I attended recently, as an example of how to ensure that standards (accessibility in that case) don't get diluted over time. It takes the concept of a corporate identity manual into webspace. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Nov 24, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Sunena wrote: Hi, I have recently joined this group and am looking for a sample UI Design Standards document. I need to create a design standard document. Can anyone provide information on this? Thanks Sunena Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
[WSG] What do you think about slicing images?
I haven't seen any discussions about slicing images, with regards to web standards. I expect slicing is discouraged, since it is table-based. What do you do if you want to use a fairly large image in a design?
Best regards,
Marilyn Langfeld
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1.301.598.3300 business phone
+1.301.598.0532 fax
+1.202.390.8847 mobile
On Nov 15, 2004, at 10:25 AM, Michael Wilson wrote:
Iain Harrison wrote:
Eh? That makes no sense to me. Body is a child of html.
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is: I use
html { font-size: 100%; }
body { font-size: 0.8em; }
Hi,
First post-- nice to meet you all and thank you for all of the information you share.
I've been using the opposite with fairly decent results across various browsers and settings. This seems to give me at least some consistency in font size without totally taking over the user's preferences or ability to adjust the size.
html { font-size: 76%; }
body { font-size: 1.0em; }
Actually because most of the time I have a container div>, I usually place the % on the body and the em on the div>, but I suppose it's the same idea in theory.
--
Best regards,
Michael Wilson
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Re: Re[4]: [WSG] Question to the others ...
Hi folks, My first post, since I've worked in print longer than web. In print, an em (and en) are mostly used to describe dashes (of the width of M and N) in a font. So they are appropriate to the task when used for that. They have been slightly redefined for the web (since an en is not always half an en): An em is a unit of measurement defined as the point size of the font12 point type uses a 12 point em. An en is one-half of an em. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/emen/ Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Nov 14, 2004, at 6:48 AM, Iain Harrison wrote: Sunday, November 14, 2004, 11:22:18 AM, Rob wrote: I find the description of font-size a bit dodgy, I agree. Defining a font size in terms of a unit that is based on a font size seems pretty stupid to me too, but that's how it is. There are lots of stupidities around. Here in the UK, we use words like referrer colour centre and so on. Seems that HTML is based on a foreign language. -- Iain ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
