[WSG] Notes and links for Tim's AJAX Preso (Sydney July Meeting)
Hey hey, Thanks to those who managed to make it to the meeting last Thursday in Sydney. I just want to say it was a lot of fun and thanks for being a great audience. For those who wanted a copy of the preso, or didn't make the meeting, I've posted a (slighty cleaned up) copy here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource581.cfm If you want to experiment with some AJAX yourself I highly encourage you to steal the JS files from my demo site (http://aviditybytes.com/resources.html), look at the HTML source and have a play in your programming language of choice (it's really easy!). If you want to have a play with Rails you'll also find the full source for the demo site too (you'll need Rails installed). Below are a couple of links that relate to some questions I was asked after the presentation (and don't forget there's links at the end of the PDF). If anybody has feedback or questions please feel free to write me. - tim lucas Javascript accessibility and JAWs (also, see comment 14 for discussion of JS onload problems) http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2005/06/you_shouldve_be_1.html Javascript best practices http://domscripting.webstandards.org/ http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/goodpractices.php The difference between 'Ruby' and 'Ruby on Rails' http://blogs.eng5.com/~mlightner/?p=19 Invoking SOAP via AJAX http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-ajax1/ Installing Rails on Tiger http://wiki.rubyonrails.com/rails/show/HowtoInstallOnOSXTiger ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] What CMSs are Developers Using
Quoting Geoff Deering [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can I ask what commercial and/or open source CMSs developers on this list use, which ones they prefer, ones they don't like (and for what reasons). As per the guidelines please post CMS related questions to [WSG-CMS]: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource131.cfm -- tim - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] 508??
Lee Roberts spoke the following wise words on 29/06/2004 11:43 PM EST: Would someone please explain why the WSG thinks Section 508 is what should be used? Sure, if you explain what on earth you're talking about. -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What do browsers download?
John Horner spoke the following wise words on 30/06/2004 10:01 AM EST: But these days of course it has to fetch the associated CSS files and add them -- but wait, there's more, as they say, it should also fetch any images called by the style sheet and add them to the total. Which is when the question arose, what is the actual size of a web page? Good question. Each browser has its own strategy -- there are no 'golden rules' when implementing a browser. What this means for us is that you you can really only calculate a webpage's maximum download size, assuming it downloads all referenced elements whether they apply to the the page or not. The HTTP standard says a UA should make a maximum of six simultaeneous requests to a single server, which you would have to take into account if trying to estimate the time. Also don't forget for a single page the elements needing to be loaded can exist on different servers. If you also consider caching between requests then it quickly becomes apparent there's little you can do for accurately estimating download size and times. The best solution, as in most cases, is to actually run some tests. Get your target user's UA set up and capture the http traffic for each UA. You'd also need to record the display of the UA if you wanted to understand the loading of the visual elements. I know that for Gecko based browsers background images defined in stylesheets (inline or linked) are deferred from loading until they are asked to display themselves. This also helps because many style sheet rules containing images often don't apply to the elements of the current page. -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Importing hacks into CSS? Whats the point?
Michael Kear spoke the following wise words on 28/06/2004 10:05 AM EST: Fair enough. I understand the point, I think, except that I don't think you gain anything at all by it, except more complexity in the site's file structure. Every hack now represents one more file that has to be uploaded, version controlled, backed up, managed etc. If your file management workload is directly proportional to the number of files you manage (and we are talking no more than 50 extra files in most cases) then I think it's time you you invest in some tools to streamline your processes. I'd have thought it was simpler to have the hack actually in the main css file, and commented adequately so it was easy to find there.Or am I missing the point? My compromise is to place all hacks for [insert your favourite buggy browser] into it's own CSS file. CSS hack techniques are forever changing. CSS fundamentals are set in stone. -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Importing hacks into CSS? Whats the point?
Lachlan Hardy spoke the following wise words on 28/06/2004 1:53 PM EST: So the benefit is one of speed? Or segregation - keeping the clean code from the dirty nasty hacks? CSS hacks are only a technical workaround and provide little meaning to the CSS when viewed by somebody other than the author. For some projects I separate layout, colours, fonts and hacks into their own CSS files. This is usually because I'm writing the CSS for somebody else to understand and maintain. For my personal website I wouldn't want to separate all those facets. I'm happy with a single stylesheet containing everything as it's easier for *me* to maintain. There is no cardinal rule -- simply deliver the solution that is best for your client. -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Accessibility in FLASH MX 2004
ckimedia spoke the following wise words on 23/06/2004 10:36 AM EST: Before dashing the XHTML/CSS solution to my interface execution, how robust is the accessibility feature in MX 2004? The interface must be as 508 compliant as possible. A quick google for Flash 2004 accessibility found a couple of interesting pages: Flash and JAWS: http://ficp.engr.utexas.edu/cone/flash/files/Flash%20and%20JAWS.pdf Macromedia's Stuff: http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/accessibility/features/flash/ A Breeze presso that no longer exists: http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/003223.cfm Accessibility tools for Flash: http://www.hisoftware.com/macromedia_flash/ A few articles: http://www.washington.edu/accessit/articles?23 http://evolt.org/article/rdf/4090/57431/index.html HTH -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au amp; theage.com.au with css
Some posting guidelines and information for Nancy, Amit and all of our new members. Nancy: If your email is to Russ then please send it directly to Russ. If you then find out information which is relevant to web standards and that the majority of this list will care to read your post, then, please, post to the list. Amit: Please don't post me toos... especially ones that contain thousands of lines of CSS. From the guidelines: - Try to use plain text email rather than HTML email where possible. - Read all the posts in your inbox before answering so that multiple similar answers are avoided as much as possible - Code samples are fine, but not full pages of html or css code - much better to link to these items - If you wish to post a message to the list and are unsure if it is on-topic, please email Peter and Russ at [EMAIL PROTECTED] A full copy of the guidelines can be found here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm -- tim Nancy Johnson spoke the following wise words on 22/06/2004 3:23 AM EST: Dear Russ, This seemed like a very interesting meeting, would it be possible to publish the actual CSS files? Amit Karmakar spoke the following wise words on 22/06/2004 9:51 AM EST: I was just going to say that Pete :) use firefox/mozilla and dig out the CSS with the 'web developer extension. Here you go Nancy. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] critque
Ryan Smith spoke the following wise words on 19/06/2004 3:58 PM EST: Another newbie here. Ive just sent my site live and wanted some constructive feedback from both designers and developers. The xhtml validates Im working on getting it strict. Although there are a couple of usability issues (like the skip to content misses the folio links) overall Im happy with it. Good to see another designer embracing web standards =) Clean and minimal markup and using JS to insert the decorative graphics. You've let a bgcolor sneak on all the pages though ;) To guarantee no UAs get confused with the inline javascript you could make it less intrusive by using script src.. in the header, attach a function (which inserts the image using the DOM) to the body's onload event. CSS wise you could probably move the CSS hacks into their own CSS file(s). You also might find it more manageable to split up normal.css into different stylesheets for each section then using @import. Any reason you're using both @import *and* link? Few things I noticed using lynx: - There's no need for the img descriptions for 'email icon' and 'phone icon' as you have the text 'Email' and 'Phone' directly adjacent to them. - XHTML link at the bottom not too descriptive. Maybe 'Valid XHTML' or even better 'Validate XHTML'. - Same for 'more...' - Confused as to why the 'It's more of the same' link goes to your folio. - An unorder list for the bottom contact info might be clearer. - Might want to add a 'title=home' to your logo link as a link to 'm.ot.s. logo' isn't too accurate. You also might want to quote the international ver of your mob number +61 423 ... (you never know!) Seems to serve its purpose well. Nice work! -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] invalid xhtml
Mordechai Peller spoke the following wise words on 18/06/2004 7:47 PM EST: That's because Firefox, even though it checks for well formedness, doesn't check for validity. The best solution is to sniff if the UA accepts application/xhtml+xml, and if so, serve XHTML, otherwise, convert it to HTML4.01 and serve it that way. One of the advantages of XHTML over HTML is that XHTML can be easily and quickly converted to HTML, while the reverse isn't true. Yes, XML is (relatively) easy to manipulate but the point of the discussion is schema validation. Most XML parsers are non-validating (i.e. they don't validate that the given document conforms to its schema). To serve validating XHTML content the best solution is to use a schema validating editor (e.g. DreamweaverMX04, XMLSpy) and to ensure your server-side components are validating and dealing with errors. The attitude at the moment is that it's not a high priority for web developers to ensure their documents are 100% valid. If you're going to do this then simply don't serve it with a mime-type of xhtml+xml. -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] scrolling area
Justin French spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 11:29 PM EST: So, I'd like to experiment with a javascript/css based solution which (preferably) is 100% accessible, based on a scroll box with simple up and down arrows, etc. Travis Beckham's divscroller works a treat: http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller2 http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] re: using wildcard * in css (now IE vertical spacing between li's)
I'll check it out for you when I get home later this evening. -- tim Quoting Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tim You're right, the different colouring was there just for separation. I like your idea of using spacing to differentiate groups of links and have applied it at http://www.algae.info/ Works fine in Firefox 0.8/Mozilla , Opera 7.23, and Safari 1.2 Unfortunately IE wont come to the party, it puts in vertical spacing between each li in the ul when all the other browsers play nice and display them vertically flush. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Tim Lucas wrote: Well assuming the different colouring is there just for separation then it is much harder for the brain to deduce groupings from colours than it is for proximity. Its just a graphic design principle that I think might be worth trying. To fix your prob set the width to be 100% on the a's. Try these style changes (just add to page or bottom of style sheet): snipped -- tim Neerav spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 6:36 PM EST: Any specific reason Tim ? The clients for that site want a solid colour background for the nav column * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * www.toolmantim.com - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] new layout/design
Chris Stratford spoke the following wise words on 13/06/2004 2:52 PM EST: Firstly thanks for the indepth review! Pleasure =) */ - Teaser boxes shouldn't be span's /*Hmmm. I thought it would be ok using a span because its only going to contain small notes, or a link or two. What should I use in that place? It seems that you're using span to separate text flow and div to cut your page into chunks for styling. A div shows a change in the flow of page content, just as a p shows the change in the flow of text. */ - Don't use a clearing div if you can just clear the (next) element itself. /*I dont have any clearing div's - unless you saw the older version. Or if you are refering to the footer div clearing. Thats needed so the spans dont intrude on the footer when the span is larger than the content. You should be able to just apply the clear: both; on the footer div itself. */ - Need more contrast on the lower 3 buttons. /*Is it because they are hard to read? They arent really essential, and I am thinking of reducing the thickness of the borders. I wasn't planning on lightening the colour of the bg though... any special reasons why? Two reasons: 1) It looks nicer. 2) It's more readable and hence more accessible to vision impaired users or anybody with an uncalibrated monitor (majority of web users) */ - Consider a skip link /*Why is this important? I only have 8 links, i have seen them before. and they look kind of out of place. It'll only look out of place if you make it look out of place. Making something more enjoyable is about making the little things easier. If including the skip link makes somebody's life that little bit easier as they read through your blog postings isn't it worth it? Hey it's up to you, which is why I said 'consider' =) I recommend reading Chapter 1 of Joel Spolsky's User Interface Design for Programmers: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog57.html */ - Is your H2 a heading with associated content or just a tagline? /*The H1, and H2 headers are merely for when the browser has no CSS. If you have FireFox, view hte BASIC theme. You will see the headings. At the moment they are display:none. Its just so the site looks good without the CSS AKA bastardisation of web standards. Choose elements based on their semantic meaning -- not on their unstyled appearance when viewed through [insert your favourite browser here] with styles turned off. /*I usually use all the H tags, down to H6... So I will have the structure, just H1 and H2 are hidden, and are displayed as Images really... I know its not 100% correct, but its not that bad is it? Headings are *meant to be* used to logically and hierarchically separate your content. Some of your viewers may browse your pages by skipping through the headings on your page. Does it make sense for a user to skip to your tagline section? - Ditch the FIR on your H1 and H2. Use an image with an 'alt' in your H1 and H2 element or an accessible IR technique. /*FIR?? Hmm... Im thinking :) FIR = Fahrner Image Replacement = display: none; = bad practice. It's an elegant method of image replacement but unfortunately for us it's inaccessible. If you choose to use it just be aware that the browser (or any user agent) is not under any obligation to acknowledge it's existence. As alternative user agents increase in use amongst both the community and less-abled users it's even more important to be aware of this particular gotcha (especially with the upcoming release of OSX shipping with screen reading technology.) -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] new layout/design
Chris Stratford spoke the following wise words on 13/06/2004: Just looking for your opinion. My new layout - I coded 100% myself last night. Here is the link: http://www.neester.com/temp/ CSS: http://www.neester.com/temp/styles/june2004.css My opinion: Source code and accessibility: - Do you really need all those nested div's? - Enclose paragraph text in p's - Teaser boxes shouldn't be span's - Don't use a clearing div if you can just clear the (next) element itself. - Try to include a 'media' on the link tag - Consider including a print style sheet - Need more contrast on the lower 3 buttons. - Consider a skip link - Is your H2 a heading with associated content or just a tagline? - Should your H1 be the title of your site or the title of this page? Although from your POV the site title is more important there are no explicit tags to describe the heirarchy of your site, only the heirarchy of this page. Therefore in this page/document medium shouldn't the page/document title have greater importance? - Validate your CSS - Ditch the FIR on your H1 and H2. Use an image with an 'alt' in your H1 and H2 element or an accessible IR technique. Graphic design: - Page title the fullstop, space and capital too closely resembles two sentences. You could probably either put the two closer or move the fulltop closer to 'Com'. - The page title image says 'elegant' to me. Try to remember this when styling each element. - The bottom links are already visually separated from the body by their surrounding grey box so probably don't need the harsh outline. They do need separation from themselves though. Try centre equalizing them. - More whitespace around the content boxes - Changing background colour of a box on :hover gives it the appearance of a link - Don't really need the last hr - Background of nav could be a little lighter - Hover on nav maybe a bit too harsh (remember 'elegant') - More spacing between nav elements - Include more alternative fonts in your font-family declarations - Consider line-height for your fonts And personally a lil splash of colour (just one or two complements) to make your site a bit different from the few other bw blogs. All round nice job. Your work (both design and coding) has improved significantly since you signed up to the list a long while back =) Have you done any paid work? -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] new layout/design
Sorry for the dual posting. Accidently left my digital signature on for the last post. I wish the list software didn't abuse the mail headers. Chris Stratford spoke the following wise words on 13/06/2004: Just looking for your opinion. My new layout - I coded 100% myself last night. Here is the link: http://www.neester.com/temp/ CSS: http://www.neester.com/temp/styles/june2004.css My opinion: Source code and accessibility: - Do you really need all those nested div's? - Enclose paragraph text in p's - Teaser boxes shouldn't be span's - Don't use a clearing div if you can just clear the (next) element itself. - Try to include a 'media' on the link tag - Consider including a print style sheet - Need more contrast on the lower 3 buttons. - Consider a skip link - Is your H2 a heading with associated content or just a tagline? - Should your H1 be the title of your site or the title of this page? Although from your POV the site title is more important there are no explicit tags to describe the heirarchy of your site, only the heirarchy of this page. Therefore in this page/document medium shouldn't the page/document title have greater importance? - Validate your CSS - Ditch the FIR on your H1 and H2. Use an image with an 'alt' in your H1 and H2 element or an accessible IR technique. Graphic design: - Page title the fullstop, space and capital too closely resembles two sentences. You could probably either put the two closer or move the fulltop closer to 'Com'. - The page title image says 'elegant' to me. Try to remember this when styling each element. - The bottom links are already visually separated from the body by their surrounding grey box so probably don't need the harsh outline. They do need separation from themselves though. Try centre equalizing them. - More whitespace around the content boxes - Changing background colour of a box on :hover gives it the appearance of a link - Don't really need the last hr - Background of nav could be a little lighter - Hover on nav maybe a bit too harsh (remember 'elegant') - More spacing between nav elements - Include more alternative fonts in your font-family declarations - Consider line-height for your fonts And personally a lil splash of colour (just one or two complements) to make your site a bit different from the few other bw blogs. All round nice job. Your work (both design and coding) has improved significantly since you signed up to the list a long while back =) Have you done any paid work? -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] new layout/design
Chris Stratford spoke the following wise words on 13/06/2004 3:31 PM EST:
Yeah thats what I have for the inner Div.
but IE doesnt recognise that I thought.
If you apply the text-align to the body element you only need 1 div:
body
{
text-align: center;
}
#shell
{
text-align: left;
margin: 0px auto;
width: 750px;
}
-- tim lucas
http://www.toolmantim.com
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] print style - reposition a div
Phillips, Wendy spoke the following wise words on 6/05/2004 9:17 AM EST: I have a two column table - in the right hand column is a div. I have a print style sheet and would like this div to position itself at the end of all other content in the print version. Is this possible? Ahh now see if you'd gone CSS-P it wouldn't be a problem :) Mozilla supports display: block on the tds, but alas IE does not. -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] iCal and other Calendar Formats?
Justin French spoke the following wise words on 4/05/2004 10:54 AM EST: Can anyone point me to some standards or guides for targeting these users with subscription-based calendars? Check out: http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2002/10/22/lotsOfICalLinks http://www.imc.org/ietf-calendar/index.html -- tim lucas http://www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: Ten questions for Anne van Kesteren
east spoke the following wise words on 4/05/2004 10:27 PM EST: With a miminmal amount of PHP effort this is possible, and I have done it on my personal website, and written about it here: http://eastsdomain.com/43. If you're going to do this you better be damned sure that your markup is kosher. You might want to check out the following link: http://eastsdomain.com/site/gallery/ If you don't need to serve valid XML, and you can not systematically serve well formed XML documents, then I recommend sticking with a less strict data format (such as XHTML transitional). XML is a strict data format and, like most, can't reliably be written by hand without some level of QA. There are many advantages to serving XML but you *have* to do it properly. If you've told the browser you're sending XML and you don't then it's no better than sending it a PDF when it's been told its receiving a ZIP. -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Validator Question re SHORTTAG YES
Vaska.WSG spoke the following wise words on 4/05/2004 11:47 PM EST: Am I correct in assuming that the validator does not like the 'nowrap'? And that probably being the case, and since I do need it, is there some other betther method for pulling this off? Yep and yep. You want nowrap=nowrap. Likewise for disabled=disabled, checked=checked and noshade=noshade. If you want an explanation: XML requires all attributes to be in the attribute=value format. SHORTTAG is a remnant from SGML (of which HTML is a subset of). -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Validator Question re SHORTTAG YES
Vaska.WSG spoke the following wise words on 4/05/2004 11:47 PM EST: Am I correct in assuming that the validator does not like the 'nowrap'? And that probably being the case, and since I do need it, is there some other betther method for pulling this off? Yep and yep. You want nowrap=nowrap. Likewise for disabled=disabled, checked=checked and noshade=noshade. If you want an explanation: XML requires all attributes to be in the attribute=value format. SHORTTAG is a remnant from SGML (of which HTML is a subset of). -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS Tables
Noa Groveman spoke the following wise words on 22/04/2004 11:37 AM EST: Hey everyone, I've been reading this list for a couple weeks and this is my first time posting. I've got a question about something I've been working on recently. I'm pretty sure it's a lost cause, but I might as well ask. Welcome! I recently converted a directory lister script from using table tags to using CSS styled tables (display:table), and I've noticed that there is no provision for a colspan attribute. This is tabular data. I would definately recommend using a table. Imagine there are 50 rows. How would the user, or user-agent, tell that there is a connection between the column header and that piece of data on the 50th row? Use a th scope=col colspan=whateverHeader/th This makes sense, because tables are for displaying tabular data and not for fancy headers, but I want to do it anyway. This is your first clue that you probably should be using a table. You can style tables to your hearts content so I see no reason why you'd bother trying to emulate them using divs. -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter Ottery spoke the following wise words on 20/04/2004 10:27 AM EST: hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ Peter, once again my hat goes off to the f2 team. One interesting choice , I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? Also, have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] Web Essentials 04
Andrew Krespanis spoke the following wise words on 21/04/2004 12:46 AM EST: Ok, I'm a full-time student, and as such, I'm full-time broke :( I'm VERY keen to attend this seminar, and I'm wondering if any other students want to band together and try for some kind of group discount? Email me if you're interested... That's gonna have to be one helluva discount! ;) -- tim smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] target=_blank substitute
Darian Cabot spoke the following wise words on 18/04/2004 1:29 PM EST: I would like to open a link in a new window. I used to use target=_blank attribute, but that isn't xhtml strict. Can anyone enlighten me on a xhtml strict method? as I'd like my pages to verify ^^ Check out XHTML target module: http://www.accessify.com/tutorials/standards-compliant-new-windows.asp http://www.webreference.com/xml/column30/ http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_targetmodule http://www.nic.fi/~tapio1/HTMLKit/Attributes2Mod.php3 The DTD: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-target-1.mod -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] Introductory Usability Evaluation workshop
russ weakley spoke the following wise words on 13/04/2004 6:14 PM EST: Forgot to mention, 10% discount for WSG members! Is that on top of the student discount? (not that I have the money anyway... lol) -- tim www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] a QUICK HELPER - BRAIN IS DEAD AFTER 14 HOURS
Answered off list. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Trimming the fat
Quoting theGrafixGuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Now, my site is better, but still not where I want it, CSS will definitely bring it more inline but alas, I need to find a good lightweight, customizable and powerful shopping cart program to replace the VERY VERY tables heavy OSCommerce. Might want to check out Zen Cart: http://www.zen-cart.com -- tim www.toolmantim.com - Web, Email and Domain hosting - www.fasthit.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site
russ weakley spoke the following wise words on 21/03/2004 1:58AM EST: The WSG site was built very quickly when we first put the group together (just over a year ago). It is very much overdue for a redesign. In the spirit of group ownership, we thought it would be a good idea to open the process up to all members. Great! I only wish I had more time to encourage my creative side. So much of my time is spent doing technical stuff. Can't wait to see the entries, and who knows... maybe some celebrity appearances? -- tim www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[OT] Re: [WSG] FIR deprecated [WAS: A rave about h1's]
Gyrus spoke the following wise words on 19/03/2004 1:46 AM EST: Just a request - could we change subject lines when the subject changes? Actually, I can't remember how the h1 thread became the FIR thread... But anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in liking the ability to scan my list inboxes for subject headings that I'm following. When the subject changes you should start an entirely new email, not just change the subject of the message. When you hit Reply to an email your email client actually sends back the id of the email you were replying to, which allows the mail server to keep track of the threads (even if subjects change). If you want to make a thread of another (web standards related) topic then make sure you compose a new email and don't just reply to the original email thread. Stuff like mail-archive.com uses the mail-id to do threading. Also, if Peter ever gives us NNTP access to the list then these sort of problems become more apparent when everything is laid out in a tree view (some mail clients will also give you a tree view of mail threads as well -- for example Thunderbird and Mozilla Mail) Cheers -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Next Sydney meeting - a fantastic guest presenter
Leslie Riggs spoke the following wise words on 19/03/2004 2:13 AM EST: If only I could get to Sydney...but it is not to be. Anybody got a DV-Cam? Maybe for meetings we could video guest speakers (with their permission of course), type up transcripts and post both to the website along with their comments. I think this is just too important to let go for those who aren't in Sydney (which, luckily, I am!) and for the visually-abled David's Top 50 list would have much more an impact with the accompanying video. Just an idea... -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] best ways to sell web standards
Have a look at the thread posted last month by the f2network team. -- tim Neerav spoke the following wise words on 10/03/2004 10:19 AM EST: When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince your management, what are the tried and true methods used by WSG members to convince them that coding to web standards is a plus for their organisation? I can think of a few to start with: * Lower data transfer volumes as pages coded with DIV and SPAN tags + CSS for presentation are usually smaller in size and the CSS will be cached * Coding to standards lowers testing time in the umpteen available browsers (in my experience) as pages coded to standards tend to work more out out of the box than older style table layout and font tag coded pages * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A few questions needing answers
Peter Firminger spoke the following on 6/03/2004 12:26 PM EST: Relative vs Absolute Links I agree with James first answer. Change hosts! I can see absolutely no reason for this apart from an idiot ISP. Speaking of idiot ISPs... Was it TPG (http://www.tpg.com.au/help_desk/activate.html - This form is best viewed with IE 3.04 or Netscape 3.03 and above.)? Relative and absolute links have no difference on the server. The client/browser/user-agent are the ones who have to figure out the difference. The fact that your host doesn't understand this is a pretty good reason to change hosting providers. Did he give you reasons for requesting you use absolute links? -- tim www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Coding Standard...
My brace style of use is KR (Kernighan and Ritchie -- or what you call 'goofy') but I prefer to read GNU style, then BSD style (what you called 'lined up method'). I guess it goes back to my C programming days. If wateva team I'm working with doesn't like it then it's only 2 lines of perl to change it... And I definately agree with SC that it's probably one of the aspects that matters the least when it comes to code readability and reuse -- althought it should be kept consistent throughout a project. -- tim www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology
Just received an email[1] from my SMH subscription stating they've launched a new website, SMH.com.au technology: http://www.smh.com.au/technology I have to admit. I was a little cynical and was preparing myself for an onslaught of presentational markup and zilch semantic markup. Off I went and viewed the source of the new website and... low and behold... its semantic markup laid out purely with CSS (otherwise known as a CSS-P layout). Hats off to the f2 network web team (I know you're on this list!) for moving SMH's policies toward a standards based architecture. Unfortunately the site doesn't validate because of bare ampersands in URIs, some javascript language attribs, attributes that aren't doubled quoted and a missing alt tag. The ad banner system seems to be the cause of most of the errors which, im guessing, is out of their control. Again, nice work f2! I look forward to seeing you move more of SMH (and the f2 network) towards standards based techonologies (including a focus on some accessibility features). A question on behalf of those who are considering moving their companies to standards based design: How were the forces of power in f2 convinced to invest in web standards and what commitment by management was needed for this to become (what I consider to be) a successful project? -- tim www.toolmantim.com [1] -- FWD-From: smh.com.au Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] New look technology site Dear Tim, The new look technology section on smh.com.au/technology has just launched. It has been enhanced to provide more breaking technology news and to showcase the vast amount of news, analysis and reviews available online from Next, ICON and LiveWire. Plus, it will be even easier for you to navigate around. What has changed? - It is now a fixed-width site, which will make it easier to scan the headlines and read the articles. - We have rearranged the site into two main columns, which allows you to see all of the different sections and updated news and features at a glance. - And, there's an extra navigation across the top, a change of colours and picture bylines for our fantastic columnists, to make the site a little more personal. New features - Resources section with an IT Events calendar - Management Focus with articles from our MIS publications in Australia, Asia, NZ and the UK - More IT Whitepapers and all the latest tech tips from Next - Refreshed design and layout for the technology news emails starting from next week We hope you like the changes to the technology site that have been long in coming, but which we hope will improve your enjoyment. Take a look at smh.com.au/technology now and send us your feedback. Regards Mike van Niekerk Managing Editor, Online The Sydney Morning Herald * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Debrief and thanks to Russ Peter
Bloody webmail gremlins. Killed half of my newlines to! -- tim LC 55 spoke the following wise words on 24/02/2004 2:28 AM EST: Gremlins in the works or what chaps? Check the date on this original message below. Regards, JG * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Validating pages with password protection?
Justin French spoke the following wise words on 19/02/2004 9:48 AM EST: A bit obvious, but also ridiculously time consuming on anything more than 2 pages :) Unless you use the developer extension for FireFox... then it's just a matter of right clicking in the browser window then going WebDeveloper-Validate Locally -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] IE keyboard shortcut
Rex Chung spoke the following wise words on 19/02/2004 10:51 AM EST: does anyone know if there's a keyboard shortcut [in Internet Explorer] for jumping to the next headings (h1,h2,h3 etc) on the page? Nope. http://balasainet.com/iesupersite/support/keyboardshortcuts.htm -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Please Help with Final 2 CSS Bugs
I've done a CSS pure layout and only have two bugs to squash (I think/hope) before I can continue with the rest of the project. I've tried everything to get rid of them but nothing is working. Page is here: http://www.toolmantim.com/staging/playtest_2cols.html and the css is here: http://www.toolmantim.com/staging/playtest.css Bug 1) In Mozilla the left hand background only vertically extends as far as the viewport (i.e. #outerwrapper background height is stuck at 100% of viewport, not 100% of content). See line 41 of CSS Bug 2) In IE (5.x 6) there is a strange white bar down the left hand side of body. This occured after I applied the width: 100% to #body to solve the disappearing float bug (as #body-rhcolumn has float: right; applied to it). See line 245 of CSS Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is reaaally starting to annoy me! Thanks, -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Javascript question
If anyone could think of a better way to do this, or even an efficiency tweak I would be very grateful. How about using iteration instead of recursion? -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] CSS Site Check
Thanks Michael! -- tim Michael Donnermeyer spoke the following wise words on 13/02/2004 3:01 PM EST: Don't blame you. IE has been on my last nerve recently...ALOT. I wouldn't use the hack...it's a rather minor issue anyway, and the hack could cause other issues to arise...not to mention it's a hack. Looks fine in what I tried it in: Safari 1.2 Firebird 0.7 IE 5.2.3 Opera 6.03 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] CSS Site Check
Thanks Chris, looks fine! -- tim p.s. It's best to send attachments privately and off the list. Posting a link is ok though =) -- [WSG]: the poor man's browsercam Chris Stratford spoke the following wise words on 12/02/2004 7:17 PM EST: Attached are two screenshots of your website as i see it in Crazy Browser (IE 6) and FIREFOX.
Re: [WSG] CSS Site Check
Thanks Michael, One small this I saw is in IE the footer text runs into itself if the window is resized too small, say 600-700 pixels wide or smaller. I'm choosing to ignore IE's lack of support for min-width. Other than that and the usual mystery horizontal scrollbar, no probs. Is it worth adding the -15px hack, and does anybody know of any side effects? Lynx looks alright, but personally I'd put the header div above the body...just feels weird having it below, since it's a title. It also makes 'About Us' and 'Contact Us' appear twice very close together, which might be confusing for someone. Good point. This body before header design was a result of SEO being important for this project. I think the confusing part though is the footer's "About Us... " being before the copyright message. This was so I didn't have to "float: left" the copyright to get them onto the same line. A little more markup and stylesheet for accessibility is definately worth it. I've changed the footer, could you guys please do a quick recheck to see if it's still ok in Opera Mac? -- tim Michael Donnermeyer spoke the following wise words on 12/02/2004 9:33 PM EST: Looks fine in Safari 1.2, Firebird 0.7, and IE 5.2. One small this I saw is in IE the footer text runs into itself if the window is resized too small, say 600-700 pixels wide or smaller. Other than that and the usual mystery horizontal scrollbar, no probs. Lynx looks alright, but personally I'd put the header div above the body...just feels weird having it below, since it's a title. It also makes 'About Us' and 'Contact Us' appear twice very close together, which might be confusing for someone. MD
Re: [WSG] CSS Site Check
Sorry.. forgot to include the URL: http://www.toolmantim.com/staging/main_layout.htm -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] CSS Site Check
Could you please check the following framework for a layout i'm doing: http://www.toolmantim.com/staging/main_layout.htm Intended display (horizontally liquid with no borders): http://www.toolmantim.com/staging/main_layout.gif Thanks everyone, -- tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Spot the Error
hahahaha Lindsay Evans spoke the following wise words on 9/02/2004 12:13 PM EST: The irony is just too much: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/02/06/spot_the_err/index.php * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Walking Text in IE
I have a serious case of text going walkies off the left hand side of the page in IE: http://www.twoslabs.com/ Anybody have any idea why this is happening? Cheers, tim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Walking Text in IE
Thanks David, The border-bottom fixed it gewd! cheers - tim David McDonald spoke the following wise words on 22/11/2003 2:22 AM EST: Tim, It's a known bug in IE - see: http://nemesis1.f2o.org/bugs_t?bname=Creeping%20Text And http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/creep.html * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] XAML anyone? The end of webstandards?
Can you write VB? then you are almost there :^) My first GUI program when I was much younger was a VB6 program. Haven't touched it since then so I'd imagine it would take a fair effort to get up to scratch... Meanwhile I am sitting here making a template for a CMS-driven site browser-detect so it can spit out nice, compliant, accessible pages for most folks and a text version for the rest (client said "give up on N4" g), Next they want high/low bandwidth versions, methinks the zengarden style is the way to go :-) Ok if all your images are defined in the stylesheet (rarely the case)... another alternative i've tried is to make a low-res version of all your images, then buffer the entire page into a variable and do a replace on all ".jpg" with "_low.jpg" and gifs etc... (filter in jsp, ob_start with php or cfsavecontent with coldfusion)... somebody probably has a better way though. Back to XAML: I guess from an ubiquitous computing point view the blurring between application, web application and web page is inevitable. The application server industry is building up steam and I'm sure they will be pushing a similar technology, and my bet is it'll be XAML rather than XUL (i wish it was the other way around!). These technologies conjure up dreams where you don't have to launch all these separate 'applications' to do what you have to do... the computer interface moulds itself to allow you to do the tasks you wish to do, whether it be read an email, look up some information (on the web or otherwise), converse on a newsgroup, instant message a friend, post on a private/public diary... I wish MS would agree on (instead of declaring) a common base architecture with the rest of the world... Longhorn would not doubt be the most advanced application using that architecture, which would still give them the market lead they lust for. MS write some great and useful stuff for the business world. If only they would let the rest of the world join the game... - tim p.s. Looks like we have two definitions of XAML (i was waiting for an ML acronym clash!): http://longhornblogs.com/rdawson/posts/496.aspx and http://itmanagement.webopedia.com/TERM/T/Transaction_Authority_Markup_Language.html Kym Kovan spoke the following wise words on 25/10/2003 1:48 PM EST: Why do I have this little elf in my left ear whispering "learn dot net"... i wish he'd go away Can you write VB? then you are almost there :^) Right now we have a client with a bunch of php sites he wants us to host, blatant plug as we do such a good job with his CF sites/blatant plug, I am starting to wonder which way it is all going. Meanwhile I am sitting here making a template for a CMS-driven site browser-detect so it can spit out nice, compliant, accessible pages for most folks and a text version for the rest (client said "give up on N4" g), Next they want high/low bandwidth versions, methinks the zengarden style is the way to go :-)
