Re: [WSG] use of in

[Jackie Reid]

IMO a list is a list and can't really be confused with a paragraph...
  shopping list =
 eggs,
 bacon,
 bread,
 butter
and ul's or ol's are designed specifically for that job.

If you want more information in the list eg:
Eggs
  nice big organic brown ones
Bacon
  organic fed and humanely housed bacon only etc
then you looking at a definition list.

If the lists have a number of levels like
Services
  Web Site Development
   Graphics
   SEO and
   more
About Us
   Me
   You
   Someone else

then simply nest the lists and style them accordingly

Its easy to style the lists etc by giving each of them an id

Have you looked at the brilliantly easy ways of styling lists on the 
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/ site. It's a really handy resource.


Cheers

Jackie

---- Jackie Reid 
Mock Orange Media Ph: (07) 4953 
4035  
- Original Message - 
From: "John Faulds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] use of  in 


If you have two paragraphs you might want to reconsider the use of a 
list.


I don't agree. Consider as an example a 'list' of services - it may take 
more than one paragraph to adequately describe each service, but it is 
still a list.



--
Tyssen Design
http://www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

[Jackie Reid]

Hi Steve...

Well... this has been a really interesting excercise and  you will all be 
glad to know that I have decided that I will be going with the divs etc, 
even though i still think there must be ( or should be) a better way.


Thanks for everyones input...

Jackie


Just a note for Steve... your suggestion that I was searching for some kind 
of minimal markup without thinking about why I was doing it isn't actually 
the case.  I was thinking about it - and thats why I asked about . 
Having, apparently erroneously, assumed that the W3Schools would know a bit 
about what they were talking about, it appeared to me that by being able to 
"thematically" group my little bits of information they would appear to be 
just what they in fact are - a group of "thematically related bits of 
information"! Nor did I simply want to stick a border around a block of 
content.


But thats enough of that now.

Cheers

Jackie
- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Green" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?



Jackie, you said "I really didn't want a whole load of div classes with
headers & p tags etc churned out repeatedly down the page". Why not? It is
clearly the most appropriate way to mark up that content. And what would 
the

use of fieldsets change? You would still have the same quantity of markup
except that it is less semantically accurate.

You are suggesting that you would leave out the header elements but who
would benefit from their omission or replacement with legends? It seems 
that
you are searching for some kind of minimal markup without thinking about 
why
you're doing it. How is a screen reader user going to understand the 
content

of a page that just contains fieldsets and perhaps some paragraphs but no
headers or lists? How are they going to navigate effectively though it?

It's not just them either. Opera users who use keyboard navigation can 
also

skip from header to header. And what about programmatic access by other
software applications? They will not understand your personal definition 
of
the semantic structure so they will view the entire page as one lump 
rather

than numerous groups of related content.

These are the kind of considerations that should drive your coding
decisions. Mark up your content in a manner that is unambiguous to other
users, and don't adopt a bizarre interpretation of the standards that no 
one

other than a handful of 'imaginative' coders will understand.

Steve



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jackie Reid
Sent: 05 June 2007 06:35
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

Hi all respondees

Ben Said

...it depends if you're talking about page layout or actual content -
ie. is your business name, logo etc being used in a header; or are you
creating a page which lists a bunch of businesses? For the former I'd
simply use a DIV, for the latter a list (maybe a definition list).


I am doing the latter.. (a page (or more) of business listings) so I was
wanted an easy way to tie all the relevent information into one nice 
little

block.

As Lucien said  the W3schools states that "The fieldset element draws a 
box

around its containing elements." with no mention of  form controls and
that's why I asked the question in the first place. It was a response to 
an
"is there a better way to do this" sort of a moment! Also as Lucien said.. 
i
didnt just want to draw a box visually around a bit of content.. i wanted 
to

be able to clearly "group" the related information together neatly.

I considered a DL but found it too restricting and I really didn't want a
whole load of div classes with headers & p tages etc churned out 
repeatedly

down the page. It seemed to me that if the W3 schools definition of a
fieldset was correct and valid then it was ideal for my requirements. The
fact the validator passed it also seemed to me to say that it could be 
used

in this way. If  can't be used this way why does it pass
validation?

So... what to do? I dunno frankly... the jury is still out.

I will say this though ...i think its a shame that when someone takes the
time to respond to a question and states their point of view only to get
shot down in flames and virtually abused. This list is here to enable us 
to

discuss the implementation of webstandards amongst like minded people and
I'm sure no one is really "hell-bent on abusing the standards".

Cheers

Jackie



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Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

[Jackie Reid]

Hi all respondees

Ben Said

...it depends if you're talking about page layout or actual
content - ie. is your business name, logo etc being used in a header;
or are you creating a page which lists a bunch of businesses? For the
former I'd simply use a DIV, for the latter a list (maybe a definition
list).


I am doing the latter.. (a page (or more) of business listings) so I was 
wanted an easy way to tie all the relevent information into one nice little 
block.


As Lucien said  the W3schools states that "The fieldset element draws a box 
around its containing elements." with no mention of  form controls and 
that's why I asked the question in the first place. It was a response to an 
"is there a better way to do this" sort of a moment! Also as Lucien said.. i 
didnt just want to draw a box visually around a bit of content.. i wanted to 
be able to clearly "group" the related information together neatly.


I considered a DL but found it too restricting and I really didn't want a 
whole load of div classes with headers & p tages etc churned out repeatedly 
down the page. It seemed to me that if the W3 schools definition of a 
fieldset was correct and valid then it was ideal for my requirements. The 
fact the validator passed it also seemed to me to say that it could be used 
in this way. If  can't be used this way why does it pass 
validation?


So... what to do? I dunno frankly... the jury is still out.

I will say this though ...i think its a shame that when someone takes the 
time to respond to a question and states their point of view only to get 
shot down in flames and virtually abused. This list is here to enable us to 
discuss the implementation of webstandards amongst like minded people and 
I'm sure no one is really "hell-bent on abusing the standards".


Cheers

Jackie




- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?


Can fieldsets only to be used in forms or can they be used to group any 
sort
of related information together (ie: business name, short description, 
logo

and link).


The spec's wording is a little vague but by my reading of it, fieldset
and legend are only intended for form controls. Beyond the spec, I
would imagine that the average user's expectation is that
fieldset+legend = form inputs, so purely from a usability point of
view I'd keep fieldsets for forms.

For general content, the heading structure should "group" information
together; and don't forget that although we use them constantly, DIVs
do actually add structure
(http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-DIV). When I
really want to break up a page into chunks I also use HRs, although
many people contest that usage I think it's valid.

Lists also group related items together; although I do think it's an
oversight of the spec that you can't explicitly associate a label or
caption with lists. Still, a subheading + list is usually a pretty
clear association.

In some ways it depends if you're talking about page layout or actual
content - ie. is your business name, logo etc being used in a header;
or are you creating a page which lists a bunch of businesses? For the
former I'd simply use a DIV, for the latter a list (maybe a definition
list).

Just my opinion, no doubt there will be plenty of others :)

cheers,
Ben

--
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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[WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

[Jackie Reid]

Quick question for you lot.

Can fieldsets only to be used in forms or can they be used to group any sort of 
related information together (ie: business name, short description, logo and 
link).

thanks

Jackie

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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[jackie reid]

Bruce

If you own a copy of Adobe Acrobat and open the file in there you can 
extract/export images as jpgs. if not do screen shots. Its a pain... just 
like getting all the images required for a website embedded in a word doc 
aagh


jackie
- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: [WSG] pdf graphics



Hi all,

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice 
that

they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!
Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the last
ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics.
I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the
time he put into making them.
I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.
I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!!

What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu
items and backgrounds...

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign

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Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma

[Jackie Reid]

Hello Tee

I am currently working on a site with the nils org here who are 
accessibility gurus and they have recommended that should i "have" to open a 
new window i should use this code


http://www.siteurl.com.au"; title="Opens in a New Window"
  onclick="window.open(this.href); return false;"
  onkeypress="window.open(this.href); return false;">External link here

this is detailed in the juicy studio article here 
http://www.juicystudio.com/article/scripting-away-validation.php


hope that helps

jackie


- Original Message - 
From: "tee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 2:13 PM
Subject: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma


Hi accessible care takers, I  know open new window even for external  site 
is no good and have put it in practise for most sites I have  done, 
however I am kind of stuck on a site  that has over 100 links  to external 
sites. My client, understands no accessible issues  however she was 
willing to take many of my suggestions, except the  NO  'open new window' 
to external sites. Her argument is valid and  justifiable, that she is 
afraid her audience (marketing decision  markers, art directors and IT 
managers, ad firm account managers etc)  will get lost if there isn't new 
window open for external site. I  tried to convince her that her audience 
probably are more advanced  internet users than most grandpa/grandmom 
audience my other clients  have. She doesn't buy it and I haven't give up 
:)


Visited Accessify, sitepoint as well as WSG archives to look for  perfect 
solution; there seems none. It can also be quite a pain  adding js code 
just to make the link works.


My temporarily solution is to have the 'title="right click for new 
window' in the  tag, and also provides an open new window  icon 
next to the link text, however I am afraid this may actually  creates 
confusion to her audience. So I created another icon that  indicates 
'right click to open new window'  - it seems a bit over kill.


I still think the 'title="right click for new window' is the best 
approach, but I notice the indication takes more than 3 seconds to  show. 
Some people click faster than 3 seconds.


Can you tell the message I try to convey at the first glance of the  icon? 
Does it too fancy, too confusing?

please see the first two links.
http://clients.lotusseeds.com/news/june05_nikkeibussiness.html

thanks!

tee
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[WSG] HTML Codes - Characters and symbols

[jackie reid]

this is handy for people like me who dont 
know the  HTML Codes - Characters and symbols off by 
heart or even 1% by heart
 
http://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm
 
cheers
 
Jackie

Re: [WSG] Case of the amazing disappearing wrapper!

[jackie reid]

Thank you Zackary... I accept the fix with real gratitude.

I am confused though. I have been using that  bizo for 
ages and ages and usually it works perfectly. Why wouldnt it work this time?


I have slightly changed the way i built this site after reading the div 
mania article posted on the wsg site the other day and realised that most of 
my sites were suffering from it, maybe this has changed the reaction of the 
br class clear thing and made it defunct. Who knows. One thing  i do know is 
that we cant take anything for granted in this game. Just cos it worked 
yesterday doesnt mean its going to work today.


Once again thanks heaps for your help

jackie


- Original Message - 
From: "Zachary Hopkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Case of the amazing disappearing wrapper!



I've had this problem before.

It involves a 0-height object not clearing.  There needs to some
dimension to an object that clears another.
I've uploaded a copy to my site for you to check out.

I've modified the page to be valid XHTML 1.0 Strict, given your doctype.

The changes are commented, but I've changed the clearing object to be a
div and I've given it some dimension.
Changed CSS: .clear{ clear: both;height:1px;}

http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/wsg_fx_ent/index.htm

Hope it helps!

--Zachary

jackie reid wrote:


Hi List
 I dont understand whats going on here at all.
 http://www.fxenterprises.com.au/index.htm
 the white wrapper div is just not containing the content. Or rather 
sometimes it is and sometimes its not.
 when you first go into the site the wrapper doesnt stretch, if you use 
the navigation and move to another page it seems ok. but when you refresh 
the screen whompa... its the amazing disappearing wrapper thing again.

 Please shed light on the subject if you can.
 Thanks again list.
 Jackie




--

"The best way to predict the future is to invent it."
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

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[WSG] Case of the amazing disappearing wrapper!

[jackie reid]

Hi List
 
I dont understand whats going on here at 
all.
 
http://www.fxenterprises.com.au/index.htm
 
the white wrapper div is just not containing the 
content. Or rather sometimes it is and sometimes its not.
 
when you first go into the site the wrapper doesnt 
stretch, if you use the navigation and move to another page it seems ok. but 
when you refresh the screen whompa... its the amazing disappearing wrapper thing 
again.
 
Please shed light on the subject if you 
can.
 
Thanks again list.
 
Jackie
 

Re: [WSG] FF Bug - Any Fixes?

[jackie reid]

Any chance of having a look at the code and the css.?

Jackie


- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Stratford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: [WSG] FF Bug - Any Fixes?



Hey List,

I know this bug has been discussed before - but I can't find any 
solutions.

Wondering if there have been any recent fixes or what not.

This is how the menu should look (this was from IE, even IE gets it right)
http://img78.echo.cx/img78/1969/menubug25aq.jpg

This is FireFox's render:
http://img78.echo.cx/img78/6669/menubug16xy.jpg

AS you can see, beneath "CHAT ROOMS" and "BROWSE A-Z" there is a 
signifcant gap...

White space...
Something!
:S

The website is:
www.simplyrewarding.com.au

Thanks!
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Re: [WSG] problems with links

[jackie reid]

Alex, Ingo, David and Ajay...this is a belated 
thanks for taking the time to look at my links problem, i've been away. I'll 
have a crack at your solutions today and im sure they will fix the issue. 
Thanks.
 
also thanks for spotting this glaring blunder 
Ingo
I haven't looked at it yet, but most of your link rules are 
wrong.#header3 a:link, a:active, a:visited { ... }This is natural 
language, but not what you want to achieve in CSS:#header3 a:link, #header3 
a:active, #header3 a:visited {...}
I cant believe i did that but its probably the last 
thing i would have noticed as i was just focusing so much on the other rotten 
issue.
 
Thanks again guys
 
jackie

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ajay Jadhav 
  
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 9:15 PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] problems with 
  links
  
  Hi,
   
  My suggestion on this would be the same as Alex James
   
  Ajay
  Alex James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  jackie 
reid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> i have been having the most 
appalling time with my links here www.mackayports.com css here www.mackayports.com/styles/newport2.css 
> in the left hand column 
I can't stop the logo images from having an underline, 
its underlining the whole link.Firstly do you mean the images in the DIV 
'icontain'? If yes put a class on the link around the logo and then set the 
text-decoration to none like this:a.logoImg { text-decoration: none; } 
HTH, haven't had time to look at the second problem but viewed the 
page in firefox and 'Queensland Transport' is 
underlined?aj**The 
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[WSG] problems with links

[jackie reid]

Hi List
 
i have been having the most appalling time with my 
links here www.mackayports.com 

css here www.mackayports.com/styles/newport2.css 
 
I am in the process of revamping this site in 
accordance to the instructions/requirements of the Accessiblity crew at NILS but 
i seem to have got myself confused and mucked up my code and just cant work out 
whats going on, so i through myself on your mercy.
 
The problem is when viewed in firefox:- (looks fine 
in ie... so i know its wrong!!!)
 
in the left hand column  I can't stop the logo images from having an underline, 
its underlining the whole link.
 
and then 
 
i can't get the text link in  to have an underline, although they are both marked up more 
or less the same way. 
 
I have fiddled with this enough for my sanity 
today, if i continue i know i will go totally insane.
 
Hope someone can help me, huge thanks in 
anticipation.
 
Jackie
 
 

Re: [WSG] Strange horizontal spacing in nav list

[jackie reid]

shame on me... you know what? I shall be reading russ's links for light 
reading as soon as they pop up in my inbox from now on 

and you know what else.. I cant understand a word this gary bloke is saying 
but i will nut it out!!!

thanks Mike...
jackie
Thanks Mike
- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Strange horizontal spacing in nav list


jackie reid wrote:
Hello everyone...
 I am in a quandry... ie displays my navigation with whopping great big 
spaces in between the list items.
Why is this so... and how can i make them go away? Been trying to get it 
sorted for a couple of hours now and am getting frustrated to the max.
 Please go here to see the offending page 
http://www.mackayports.com/airport/index2.asp

Ya mean you don't assiduiously read Russ' "Links for light reading" each 
time? :)

It looks like the IE whitespace bug, and solution from Russ' last lot of 
links:
http://www.csscreator.com/css-forum/ftopic9016.html

Mike
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[WSG] Strange horizontal spacing in nav list

[jackie reid]

Hello everyone... 
 
I am in a quandry... ie displays my navigation with 
whopping great big spaces in between the list items.
Why is this so... and how can i make them go away? 
Been trying to get it sorted for a couple of hours now and am getting frustrated 
to the max.
 
Please go here to see the offending page 
http://www.mackayports.com/airport/index2.asp
 
thanks in anticpation
 
Jackie

Re: [WSG] Disjointed Rollovers in css

[jackie reid]

Peter and Thierry.. yes both those links are perfect.. i can get the drift 
now. thanks so much

jackie

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[WSG] Disjointed Rollovers in css

[jackie reid]

Hi group
 
i would like to be able to make a disjointed 
rollover in css, you know rollover the text and the image nearby changes colour 
or whatever.
 
is there a tutorial out there that anyone has seen 
or used that may help me achieve this.
 
 
 
cheers
 
Jackie

[WSG] Can I text indent on the right?

[Jackie Reid]

Good morning, good evening to the list
Having an issue here with text which is aligned right in my navigation 
list on the left hand side.
I want text aligned right and an indent on the right hand side.

Padding doesnt to do it, margin don't do it either as the border bottom 
then moves in the same distance as the padding or the margin and the 
border stops short.  (this is of course an ie problem all is fine in 
firefox.)

Is there a trick? Something obvious i am missing?
http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/mintech/index2.htm
any help would be appreciated or in frustration i will be sticking 
  in there and i dont want to do that.

Cheers
Jackie
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Re: [WSG] active and current id's in lists

[Jackie Reid]

thanks chaps! ... now i get it! Will put into practice immediately.
What a great list.. go home depressed... come in in the morning and 
everything is fine!

jackie

Ted Drake wrote:
personally, I wouldn't add the second id. However, you may be working with a 
nested set of links. The current id says, show the nested list, the active 
says, this is the active link
We are using something similar for the topnav on this web site: 
www.csatravelprotection.com
Instead of #current, we are using a class on the body and an id on the list. 
When the two match, it shows the nested list. If the two don't match, the 
nested list is hidden.
Ted
-Original Message-
From: Kornel Lesinski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:24 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] active and current id's in lists
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:59:59 -0800, Ted Drake  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 

The active id is giving you the opportunity to make that list item stand  
out from the others.
The current id is giving you the opportunity to make the link stand out  
from the others.
   

Why second ID instead of simply using "#active a" selector?
 

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[WSG] active and current id's in lists

[Jackie Reid]

HI all
I need someone to point me in the right direction so that i can find out 
more about the active and current bits in a ul used for navigation like 
this -


** link
link
link

this is one of the lists off css.maxdesign but i dont actually 
understand what the /active /and /current /is referring to.. what it 
does or if i  even need to use it.  There is no reference to either in 
the style sheet so whats it all about.

I have more than one ul list in the page so obviously if i am using the 
same style of list again i will have to make the  a 
class instead.  But do i even need to have active and current 
ids/classes in there at all.

Sorry if that sounds a tad jumbled but its been a long day.
Any explanations or links to explanations would be greatly appreciated
Jackie

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Re: [WSG] Site Review - Another Government site thats Standards Compliant

[Jackie Reid]

Hi Esteban...
congratulations on the site... looks great.
If I were to suggest anything at all I would suggest that you restrict 
the size of your contents div   (or your dl which ever suits) to prevent 
the text from spreading out too much.  the line length is really long  
at full screen...makes is a bit hard to read. Other than that i think it 
all looks great.

jackie
Esteban Aguilar wrote:
Hi Everyone,
I will not bore you with a long intro, I'm Esteban Aguilar, I got into 
designing standard compliant sites after attending the web standards 
briefing at UTS on Sep 2nd 2004. After the briefing I joined this 
mailing list and have been reading it ever since.

With Standards in mind I re-designed our projects website, it can be 
accessed in two ways:

http://www.communilink.org.au
or
http://www.ci.crc.nsw.gov.au
I would like to know what you standards pros think of design.
Kind Regards,
Esteban Aguilar

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Re: [WSG] required attribute "rows" not specified problem

[Jackie Reid]

how embarrassing...sorry  must be having a real blonde day!!!
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Jackie Reid wrote:
/Line 156, column 69/: required attribute "rows" not specified
[...]
this is the bit its referring to

[...]
what's it all about?

Aeh...specify the "rows" attribute, as it's required ;)

It's fairly self-explanatory, I thought
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[WSG] required attribute "rows" not specified problem

[Jackie Reid]

Hi all
trying to validate this page http://www.jobfitsystem.com/system.asp and  
am getting this error...and i dont understand it :-(

/Line 156, column 69/: required attribute "rows" not specified
|...textarea name="question" cols="30" id="question"*>*|
The attribute given above is required for an element that you've used, 
but you have omitted it. For instance, in most HTML and XHTML document 
types the "type" attribute is required on the "script" element and the 
"alt" attribute is required for the "img" element.

Typical values for |type| are |type="text/css"| for |

Re: [WSG] Maguire v SOCOG confusion

[Jackie Reid]

thanks Patrick that'll teach me for just stopping and going 
"doh..what are they talking about!!"

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Jackie Reid wrote:
> The commission responded:
> "Wrapping in each cell can be met by using a simple device namely the
> inclusion of an invisible end-of-cell character which would indicate to
> a blind person the end of the text in each cell."
>
> They then say:
> It is not clear what the HREOC means by “an invisible end-of-cell
> character,” unless they refer to ||.
>
> is this what they mean or what?
The answer follows straight after that (albeit a tad cryptic for the 
uninitiated):
"A conversation with one of the expert witnesses previously called for 
the trial clarifies that the initial (mistaken) assumption was that 
tables would have to be linearized for Maguire to understand them, 
which turned out not to be the case; standard accessible table HTML 
would suffice."

Basically, they assumed that the table would linearise into a single, 
unbroken stream - making it impossible to distinguish where the 
content of one cell ended and the next one started - so they suggested 
adding some marker that would be read out to denote the end of the 
cell. But no, they later found out that that was unnecessary, as 
assistive technology would (in one way or another) do that 
automatically, provided the table was coded correctly.

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[WSG] Maguire v SOCOG confusion

[Jackie Reid]

Hey list...
I am just reading an article maguire v socog here 
http://www.contenu.nu/socog.html* *and can't understand this bit that 
talks about the accessibility of tables...

In response to socogs claim that:
"The tables of results will contain “wrapped text within cells.”
The commission responded:
"Wrapping in each cell can be met by using a simple device namely the 
inclusion of an invisible end-of-cell character which would indicate to 
a blind person the end of the text in each cell."

They then say:
It is not clear what the HREOC means by “an invisible end-of-cell 
character,” unless they refer to ||.

is this what they mean or what?
Jackie
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Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...

[Jackie Reid]

Why cant you just say "read content" and leave the skip bit out altogether
jackie
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Hill, Tim wrote:
 I believe as more sites take
this approach on board, it will become more prevalent to these users of
what the links do. 

I'd agree with that. Additional two points:
- even if the user doesn't understand what they are, and decides to 
skip them (no pun intended), it doesn't significantly degrade their 
user experience compared to other sites; what I'm trying to say is: 
it's a bonus, an extra feature, icing on the cake that many large 
sites don't necessarily have yet...but it's not an essential part. 
Even if the user ignores it, the site remains as usable as the one 
without skip links;
- be careful not to take the comment of a single user to signify a 
whole section of the audience; of course, it's a comment we need to 
take on board, but it can only be a truly useful comment that actually 
dramatically influences our design decisions if an overwhelming number 
of users make it - in the same way that we wouldn't necessarily take 
any single sighted user's comments as an imperative (hey, I don't like 
navigation on the left, but I prefer it on the top).

That's not to say that it's not an interesting observation. Just to 
clarify: I'm not trying to belittle the original thread starter's 
message...just playing devil's advocate and making sure this doesn't 
cause a knee-jerk wave from less pragmatic developers.

Patrick H. Lauke

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Re: [WSG] Transparent Background on a list item

[Jackie Reid]

:) Right that makes sense now ... thanks...
Hugh Todd wrote:
Jackie,
The height didn't change the transparency. It revealed more of your 
#nav1's background image. Remember, a float (unless cleared) will 
happily extend beyond the borders of its container. Except in IE PC, 
but that is a bug.

So if you want your #nav1's background to resize in proportion to text 
as it resizes, you will have to give it a percentage or an em height 
measurement.

:) Hugh
Hugh.Why did that work? Why would the height of a div make 
something turn transparent?
h. confusing that...doesnt seem logical somehow. (no point in 
just doing it if i dont understand is it!)

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Re: [WSG] Transparent Background on a list item

[Jackie Reid]

that did it... i cant believe it... THANK YOU HUGH ... my new hero!
unbelievable... didnt even dawn on me to do that and never would have i 
dont  think.

thanks again... jackie
Hugh Todd wrote:
On 14/10/2004, at 2:04 PM, Jackie Reid wrote:
I have been fiddling around most of the morning and am now throwing 
my hands up in total disgust
can anyone shed any light on this subject for me?  please

Jackie,
Give a height to your #nav1. 20px did it for me.
HTH -Hugh Todd
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Re: [WSG] Transparent Background on a list item

[Jackie Reid]

Hugh.Why did that work? Why would the height of a div make something 
turn transparent?
h. confusing that...doesnt seem logical somehow. (no point in 
just doing it if i dont understand is it!)

jackie
Hugh Todd wrote:
On 14/10/2004, at 2:04 PM, Jackie Reid wrote:
I have been fiddling around most of the morning and am now throwing 
my hands up in total disgust
can anyone shed any light on this subject for me?  please

Jackie,
Give a height to your #nav1. 20px did it for me.
HTH -Hugh Todd
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[WSG] Transparent Background on a list item

[Jackie Reid]

sorry to be a pest but..  :-(
things just arent working out for me today ... (or yesterday for that 
matter)

I am trying to position a nav list over a background image, therefore 
need the bg to be transparent. Works for me in theory but 2 things are 
happening:

a) ie is displaying the list bg as transparent but in the wrong position
b) firefox is displaying it in the right position but with a solid white 
background.

i have two navigation bits in the site the one thats not doing as its 
told is  #navcontainer2 ul

I have been fiddling around most of the morning and am now throwing my 
hands up in total disgust
can anyone shed any light on this subject for me?  please

its all here
www.jobfitsystem.com/test.asp
www.jobfitsystem.com/styles/jobfit2.css
Jackie
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Re: [WSG] CSS Validation query

[Jackie Reid]

Thank, thank, thank you everyone...it works now... i must have scoured 
through that code for hours yesterday... a severe case of not seeing the 
wood for the trees.

All fixed with your help thanks again
Jackie

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[WSG] CSS Validation query

[Jackie Reid]

Hi everyone
im a bit confused here - trying to validate my css and i get this warning
"Line : 0 font-family: You are encouraged to offer a generic family as a 
last alternative"

what do they mean... i always do that and get the no errors or warnings 
reply...

whats going on.. ?
Jackie
www.jobfitsystem.com/about.asp
www.jobfitsystem.com/styles/jobfit2.css
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Re: [WSG] Web Site Structure Suggestions, Second Post!

[Jackie Reid]

personally i wouldnt use the H1 for your jezzjournal i would call that 
something else like logo div or whatever and use the H1 for  the title 
of the post so that the h1 is not the same on every page.  Otherwise you 
have set  it up almost exactly the way i would do it...

jackie
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Re: [WSG] Problems incorporating suckerfish dropdown

[Jackie Reid]

  <>Jackie wrote
for once ie is doing as its told and positioning the dropdown in the
right possy but in firefox i can't for the life of me get the darn thing



  & Ben Bishop wrote:
Arrrggghhh! Surely you've seen the trend when "IE is right, Firefox is
wrong." Just how many times has Firefox got it wrong on this list?!

  

Hi Ben... thanks for the fix... PLEASE don't think I thought IE was
right! God forbid... 

I knew I had it wrong simply because IE was doing
it "right"  

Will implement fix immediately!!! oh and by the way I always develop in
firefox does that mean I'm a boffin too
:) 






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[WSG] Problems incorporating suckerfish dropdown

[Jackie Reid]

Hi all...
I am trying to incorporate the suckerfish drop down menu in this site...
for once ie is doing as its told and positioning the dropdown in the 
right possy but in firefox i can't for the life of me get the darn thing 
to move let alone get it in the right spot...

would appreciate any help at all to get this sorted everything validates 
but thats not helping atm!!

site is here - http://sslservers.net/~aslassoc/tester.php
css is here -  http://sslservers.net/~aslassoc/styles/asla2.css
Cheers  - Jackie
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Re: [WSG] Accessible image rotators

[Jackie Reid]

Hi

we use rotator php scripts and all we do is something like this.



You only end up with a single alt tag for all images though so that might be
a problem for you, but the site validates just fine


 Jackie


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Re: [WSG] Titles Acronyms Abbr etc

[Jackie Reid]

Wonderful...thanks to you all... :o)

Jackie Reid


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Titles Acronyms Abbr etc


>
>
> Shortened forms on the Web - Abbreviations, Contractions, Acronyms,
> Initialisms, Symbols and other things.
> http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/ozewai2003/short_forms.htm
>
>
>
>
> with regards
>
> Steven Faulkner
> Web Accessibility Consultant
> National Information & Library Service (NILS)
> 454 Glenferrie Road
> Kooyong Victoria 3144
> Phone: (613) 9864 9281
> Fax: (613) 9864 9210
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> National Information Library Service
> A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
>
>
>
>   "Jackie Reid"
>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   e.com.au>cc:
>   Sent by: Subject:  [WSG] Titles
Acronyms Abbr etc
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   group.org
>
>

>   21/07/2004 03:36
>   PM
>   Please respond to
>   wsg
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi all
>
> Confusion is setting in.is the following piece of code correct or
> not...
>
> Vent Door
> Systems
>
> Looks distinctly like a case of totally unnecessary to me but we have a
> difference of opinion in the office...so thought i should check before i
go
> through and start removing all the offending stuff that has been inserted
> into my code in my absence.
>
> Have looked online to find out when and how to use titles etc but cant
find
> anything clear and precise so would appreciate someone pointing me to a
> resource in relation to abbr, acronyms and titles etc
>
> Thanks heaps
> Jackie Reid
>
>
>
>
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[WSG] Titles Acronyms Abbr etc

[Jackie Reid]

Hi all
 
Confusion is setting in.is the following piece of code correct or not...
 
Vent 
Door Systems
 
Looks distinctly like a case of totally 
unnecessary to me but we have a difference of opinion in the office...so 
thought i should check before i go through and start removing all the offending 
stuff that has been inserted into my code in my absence.
 
Have looked online to find out when and how to use 
titles etc but cant find anything clear and precise so would appreciate someone 
pointing me to a resource in relation to abbr, acronyms and titles 
etc
 
Thanks heaps
Jackie Reid

Re: [WSG] IE mac 5.1 problems with floats

[Jackie Reid]

Thanks Kay.. I did have a look through the archives just before but must
have been asking the wrong search question... will have another go.




> Hi Jackie,
>
> This actually came up on this list last week I think... Basically, IE5 on
> the Mac has a problem with clearing floats. You need to have separate
> clearing elements, eg  between the elements
> that need to be cleared. Check the archives for more details if you
like...
>
> HTH,
> K.
>
> --
> Kay Smoljak
> Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation
> PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/
> Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jackie Reid
> > Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 3:55 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [WSG] IE mac 5.1 problems with floats
> >
> > Hi everyone...
> >
> > I have just completed a couple of sites and both fall to bits
> > in a big way in IE 5.1  or whatever for MAC... all the divs
> > are all over the shop. It seems to be ignoring the floats and clears.
> >
> > What should i be doing to get this sorted...
> >
> > urls are
> > www.juganaut.com.au - css at www.juganaut.com.au/css/juganaut.css
> > www.steelcentral.com.au css at
> > www.steelcentral.com.au/styles/steelcentral.css
> >
> > same problemo on both sites.
> >
> > both lots of html and css validate... and this really gives
> > me the sh*ts
> >
> > any help offered will be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Jackie
> >
> >
>
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[WSG] IE mac 5.1 problems with floats

[Jackie Reid]

Hi everyone...
 
I have just completed a couple of sites and both 
fall to bits in a big way in IE 5.1  or whatever for MAC... all the divs 
are all over the shop. It seems to be ignoring the floats and 
clears.
 
What should i be doing to get this 
sorted...
 
urls are
www.juganaut.com.au - css at www.juganaut.com.au/css/juganaut.css
www.steelcentral.com.au css at www.steelcentral.com.au/styles/steelcentral.css 

 
same problemo on both sites.
 
both lots of html and css validate... and this 
really gives me the sh*ts
 
any help offered will be greatly 
appreciated.
 
Jackie 

Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?

[Jackie Reid]

mark said: >>For example I feel that CSS based design takes less time and as
such
should cost less that a design that  has font tags & hidden graphics
everywhere.(etc etc)

Mark... my accountant would have you marched straight to the nearest wall
and shot for saying that.

Why on earth should we bother to learn the new skills and spend nights
crying with frustration in the attempt to build valid accessible sites when
financially its going to cost us money!. We dont pay other professional
people, say a doctor or a solicitor or hairdresser, less because of his/her
knowledge and skill... we pay them what the job is worth...and thats the way
it should be as far as i am concerned.

I am not charging "more" for valid sites, I am charging what the job is
worth, if i can get the job out faster and more efficiently then good for
me... i deserve to be rewarded.

No client should be charged for a learning curve, i agree with that
wholeheartedly and have never charged for time spent nutting out new skills.
However there has to be a value for a site, and just because we have studied
and learned new skills to enable us to give the client a "better" site
should not mean we are then given a financial slap in the face for our hard
won additional skills. The first few valid sites i built took me 4 times as
long to build using css rather than tables and I "lost money" and sanity
hand over fist on those jobs. Now i am starting to reap the benefits of my
newfound skills (still not where they should be i hasten to add - but
getting there) and I feel no need to justify the value i place on them. My
client benefits and so will I.


Jackie Reid

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Re: [WSG] The joys of list management

[Jackie Reid]

Firstly I would like to say that the WSG list  has been truly inspirational
to me and i owe it a humungously huge debt of gratitude. At least 90% of the
standards stuff i have learned has come directly from my association with
it.

I am not a member of any other list or forum any longer, I like this one,
and I like the people on it as they don't make me feel like a total fool
when I can't grasp something. I just sit here and get no end of interesting
stuff delivered direct to my WSG folder with minimal effort on my part.
(love that). I check it whenever i feel like it, respond if I want, or just
read. (I often get the best laugh of the week from it) and I dont have any
problems at all with the way it is run.

I have tried forums and i don't like 'em at all and won't participate and
that's that!

A question:
Is it possible to have an OT list the same as this one. OT Stuff can still
beam itself through and get filtered into my delegated OT folder for viewing
when the mood takes me and we can all rant and rave away there to our hearts
content without bothering the die hard standards people. I must admit that
once the topic has been moved to the discussion room I tend not to
participate any longer, however as long as the chain of conversation
continues to come through to me I remain interested.  (How lazy is that! But
there you have it...)

An  OT list would enable poor long suffering Russ and the others to keep the
original list for standards topics, filter the other odds and sods off to
the correct list and not cop an earful everytime they try to keep things on
topic.

Maybe same thing can be done for completed sites up for critique before
publishing as I'm sure some people consider them to be OT too,

I would be quite happy to be on as many discussion lists as deemed necessary
if they are associated with this group.

There you go... my two bobs worth

Jack

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Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

[Jackie Reid]

Tina said
> May I ask what sort of "design books" you use for inspiration?
and
> I'd like to find some sources of "original inspiration" but I don't know
> where to look for that.

Inspiration can come from absolutely anything...

A well laid out article in a magazine.
A damn fine press/print ad
The front cover of a book
a paint chart full of great colours
a nifty menu or an architectual newsletter...
... the list could go on for ever

almost everything i see these days gets looked at with a view of how i can
adapt it for the web.

My css and design skills are not great enough as yet to be able to create
the sites that i know i will be able to one day, but i have a folder chock
full of things i have torn out and stored away for inspiration when that day
comes along. :)

btw... the finished result will probably never look anything like the
"inspiration" but it was enough to get you off and running.

Jackie

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Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

[Jackie Reid]

> displaying 
the ability to finish something you started
 
I hear this comment thrown about a lot as one 
of the major benefits of getting a degree, frankly I think that's absolute 
garbage.
 
If a degree is reward for perserverence, all 
members of this list should be given honorary degrees today because if anyone 
displays the ability to remain dedicated to something we do!... and against 
all odds. 
 
That's my two bobs worth, for what its 
worth!
 
Jackie
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Re: [WSG] Where am I missing the left turn at Alberqurque?

[Jackie Reid]

>> displays as desired in IE  6.0. It goes the hades in a hand basket in
Moz.

Looks identical in both IE and Firefox to me...is this like a "spot the
difference" thing?

Jackie

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Re: [WSG] reply from ACA

[Jackie Reid]

Miles said...
>> Seems like they glazed over when reading the accessibility 
information in your original email. 
 
They didnt just "glaze over it" they completely 
missed the point!!!
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Miles Tillinger 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:03 PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] reply from ACA
  
  Seems like they glazed over when reading the 
  accessibility information in your original email.  This is all to 
  familiar for me as there are ppl you can explain the benefits of 
  standards to 10x a day and they still forget what it all means by the 
  next day...  In most cases if it's a small site then the person 
  maintaining it is probably not very web-savvy and probably knows little or 
  nothing of the HTML/CSS that formats the site behind the scenes.  As long 
  as they can publish content with Frontpage then that's all they'll ever 
  want...
  

Re: [WSG] border problem with IE

[Jackie Reid]

> I'm out of ideas - anyone got any?

Hi Kay...
I fiddled around with this and found that if you put the ul into a div like
this

#container{padding-bottom: 5px;}

the bottom border seems to show up for some reason or other BUT then of
course you lose the 1px white border to the right ...but that may be a
starting point

http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/test/test.php




Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] Your opinion and feedback requested

[Jackie Reid]

Hi there Jason...I think the site looks great, nice and clean and easy to
read.. well done.

My only comment is about the lack of a navigation menu
I know you can get to the home users, business users and service provider
sections from 3 different sets of links on the page but I spent a couple of
minutes looking around for a traditional menu of some sort so i think that
from a user point of view you might need to include one.

Jackie Reid

>
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Re: [WSG] Compliant tree menu

[Jackie Reid]

Hi Damien.. yes it is js..

the thing that seems to cause the problemo is that the scripts i have used
use an "id" that repeats throughout the script eg   and
this is the bit that wont validate...
(http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/navigate1.htm) this is the one i
really want to use as it has a memory.

Maybe just me not implementing it properly as i am a total js ignoramous...
:(

Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Darian Cabot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Compliant tree menu


> I'm guessing the solutions you've tried have been js?
>
> How have you tried to validate it? As long as the js is correctly
> implemented in the html (xhtml?) using the script tags it should validate.
>
> Maybe I've missed the point (>_<; )
> Regards,
>
> Darian Cabot
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Cabot Consultants Pty Ltd
> Software Engineer / Website Design
> http://www.cabotconsultants.com.au
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>
> > Hi everyone...
> >
> > in dire straits here...
> >
> > I am desperately looking for an exploding/folding tree menu that
remembers
> > the last state of the menu when you refresh or go back to a page. Have
> > tried all the ones that seem to be available on line but they either
dont
> > do what i want, or do what i want and wont validate. Is there anything
out
> > there or should i be looking for a java script writer of my own?
> >
> > Is this OT.. if it is ...sorry... maybe you could just email me direct
if
> > you have an answer.
> >
> >
> > Jackie Reid
> >
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
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[WSG] Compliant tree menu

[Jackie Reid]

Hi everyone...
 
in dire straits here...
 
I am desperately looking for an 
exploding/folding tree menu that remembers the last state of the menu when you 
refresh or go back to a page. Have tried all the ones that seem to be available 
on line but they either dont do what i want, or do what i want and wont 
validate. Is there anything out there or should i be looking for a _javascript_ 
writer of my own?
 
Is this OT.. if it is ...sorry... maybe you could 
just email me direct if you have an answer.
 
 
Jackie Reid
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] marquee text

[Jackie Reid]

This one looks like it could do the trick... thanks all for your help all.


Jackie

> Have a look at 
> 
> http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/examples/2001/stock-ticker/
> 
> Regards
> Chris Blown
> http://hinterlands.com.au
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 16:22, Jackie Reid wrote:
> > My client has asked me for a section of scrolling text dammit!
> >  
> >  
> > Have searched online...cant find anything other than the fact that the
> > marquee tag has been depreciated.'
> >  
> > Is there anyway that this sort of thing can be done without effecting
> > on the validation and accessibility of a site?
> >  
> > Anyone know where i can find some info on this? :(
> >  
> > Jackie Reid
> > 
> > 
> 
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[WSG] marquee text

[Jackie Reid]

My client has asked me for a section of scrolling 
text dammit!
 
 
Have searched online...cant find anything other 
than the fact that the marquee tag has been depreciated.'
 
Is there anyway that this sort of thing can be done 
without effecting on the validation and accessibility of a site?
 
Anyone know where i can find some info on this? 
:(
 
Jackie Reid

Re: [WSG] Trimming the fat from CSS

[Jackie Reid]

Wow.. this is fun... Im really glad i opened up this little can of worms,
the list had really been a bit too quiet for my liking today. ;o)

But to Brian... you made me think about the size of the css and I have done
some of what you said but not all..and even if the code is not absolutely
bare bones its a tad more compact than it was before...so thanks for your
advice.

Cheers
Jackie...
PS(must be time for an alcholic beverage or three by now)

>
> Leo said >
> >  I HATE bloat
>
> You know Brian, for a person who hates bloat, you sure are full of it.
> ;-) lol
>
> Leo
>
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Re: [WSG] Constructive Criticism please

[Jackie Reid]

Kay said
>What I would do in your situation is hide the css from Netscape 4
completely by using either the media="all" attribute on your link tag, or
@@import syntax.

I actually dont really understand that stuff *cringe with embarrasment* I
know i read up on it at some stage but as usual can't remember where to go
and find the info now that i need it. Can someone point me in the right
direction please.

also...Thanks for the nice comments..Kay... i appreciate them

Jackie

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Re: [WSG] Constructive Criticism please

[Jackie Reid]

Kay Smoljak said>
I have two stylesweepers set up - one for "readable" (nice spacing etc) and
one for "production" (every extra space removed). One click (ok, maybe two)
and your css is transformed...

Good grief.. thats amazing!!! Thanks a bundle Kay.


- Original Message - 
From: "Kay Smoljak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Constructive Criticism please


> theGrafixGuy said:
> >Once all done remove all spaces between the commas and the semi-colons
and
> >remove the rest of the returns and have one LONG line - all of these
> >together will trim A LOT off the size of the stylesheet - mine by itself
in
> >a editing state with comments is over 18k but the version I put on line
is
> >under 7k. It don't look as pretty when it is opened and is harder to read
by
> >a human, but it is a smaller file and reads faster by a machine.
>
> If you have TopStyle, there's a great "StyleSweeper" tool which will
reformat your css according to settings that you specify. I have two
stylesweepers set up - one for "readable" (nice spacing etc) and one for
"production" (every extra space removed). One click (ok, maybe two) and your
css is transformed...
>
> K.
>
> --
> Kay Smoljak
> http://kay.smoljak.com
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Re: [WSG] Constructive Criticism please

[Jackie Reid]

GraphixGuydo you mean this...?
 
p 
{text-align:justify;line-height:130%;font-size:75%;margin: 0 0 10px 
0;}
div#quote {background-color: #e2dfd5; width: 
181px;display: block;margin-top: 5px}
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  theGrafixGuy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 1:57 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] Constructive Criticism 
  please
  
  
  Looks good overall 
  thought you have a at least one spelling error - ability to life the 1kg 
  load – should be lift I would think.
   
  Anyway as for your 
  CSS, you have a lot of fat that can be trimmed from that as well (no need to 
  repeat the font families if ya put them in the body style) You do not need the 
  “;” after the last attribute in each style (You can remove the returns and 
  have your list go horizontal instead of vertical) Once all done remove all 
  spaces between the commas and the semi-colons and remove the rest of the 
  returns and have one LONG line – all of these together will trim A LOT off the 
  size of the stylesheet – mine by itself in a editing state with comments is 
  over 18k but the version I put on line is under 7k. It don’t look as pretty 
  when it is opened and is harder to read by a human, but it is a smaller file 
  and reads faster by a machine.
   
  
  
  
  
  From: Jackie 
  Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 8:23 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Constructive Criticism 
  please
   
  
  Hi 
  all...
  
   
  
  if anyone has the time or the 
  inclination could they please have a decko at these pages and give me some 
  constructive criticism... like does it work at your end, any coding blunders 
  etc! before i go at it hammer and tongs and start filling the content in. 
  (have validated it ok)
  
   
  
  http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/juganaut.html
  
  http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/index.html
  
   
  
   
  
  css = http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/css/juganaut.css
  
   
  
  Also when is a css doc too big and 
  should be divvied up into a couple of 
  pages...
  
   
  
  ps: the links aren't functional as 
  yet.
  
   
  
  Thanks
  
   
  
  Jackie

[WSG] Constructive Criticism please

[Jackie Reid]

Hi all...
 
if anyone has the time or the inclination could 
they please have a decko at these pages and give me some constructive 
criticism... like does it work at your end, any coding blunders etc! before i go 
at it hammer and tongs and start filling the content in. (have validated it 
ok)
 
http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/juganaut.html
http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/index.html
 
 
css = http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/css/juganaut.css
 
Also when is a css doc too big and should be 
divvied up into a couple of pages...
 
ps: the links aren't functional as 
yet.
 
Thanks
 
Jackie

Re: [WSG] Horizontal Rule throwing out design

[Jackie Reid]

Jason...I decided to try the  thing again cos you said
it should work and now it does(h!)...
maybe it was conflicting with some css that I have now changed or removed.
Possible.

I would also be interested in getting the hr thing working for future use if
poss so would be interested in the solution to that too if any one has it
nutted out already.


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jason Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Horizontal Rule throwing out design


> Jackie Reid wrote:
> I have included an hr class=clear to the bottom of my wrapper
> to make the white >background appear.
> I tried div's & br's and they didnt work. hr did.

That's a bit strange I've never had a  not work

> in firefox the spacing is fine but i can see the hr
> at the very bottom of the wrapper in ie i cant see
> the hr but i have too much space at the bottom of the page
> ...it should only show 5px margin...
> how do i make them go away...?

I was trying to do this yesterday and eventually went back to using a
. IE was the only browser causing trouble, and I tried many
different suggestions I found on the net

I found a post by Eric Meyer to add visibility:hidden, but that still
takes up space.

So I would also like to hear if anyone has a solution

Regards
Jason Turnbull


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[WSG] Horizontal Rule throwing out design

[Jackie Reid]

Following Jason Turnbull's advice on another 
problem (that fixed the problem, thanks Jason) I have included an hr class=clear 
to the bottom of my wrapper to make the white background appear. I tried 
div's  & br's and they didnt work. hr did.
 

now...
 
in firefox the spacing is fine but i can see the hr 
at the very bottom of the wrapper
in ie i cant see the hr but i have too much space 
at the bottom of the page...it should only show 5px margin...
 
how do i make them go away...?
 
the css goes something like this
 
hr {height: 0; margin: 0; padding: 0; color: #fff; 
background-color: #fff;}
 
and
 
.clear { clear:both; font-size:0; 
line-height:0;}
 
any light shed on the subject would be appreciated. 
That fact that i dont even know what makes up an hr could be a problem, but i 
can't find a definition of an hr anywhere.
 
site: http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/index.html
css: http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/css/juganaut.css
 
 
Jackie Reid

Re: [WSG] GLITCH WITH MARGINS

[Jackie Reid]

Thanks Leo...you were right the answer was in 
there along with bucket loads of other juicy info including answers to unasked 
questions...cheers!
 
...sorry all about the caps in the heading 
:o(
promise i wont do it again...consider my hand 
smacked ;o)
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Leo J. O'Campo 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 1:12 
AM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] GLITCH WITH 
  MARGINS
  JackieDon't you just love IE... I'd guess your answer 
  is at the link below.http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/doubled-margin.htmlLeoOn 
  Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 04:12 AM, Jackie Reid wrote:
  Something strange is 
happening to my margins when 
i attribute a 10px left hand margin to the div id left i seem to get 
a 15px margin in IE which then throws the right hand column down and under. 
This doesn't happen with top, right or bottom margins - they all display 
correctly. What's going on here... site: 
http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/index.htmlcss: 
http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/css/juganaut.css any 
help would be appreciated hugely... Jackie 
ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[WSG] GLITCH WITH MARGINS

[Jackie Reid]

Something strange is happening to my margins 

 
when i attribute a 10px left hand 
margin to the div id left i seem to get a 15px margin in IE which then throws 
the right hand column down and under. This doesn't happen with top, right or 
bottom margins - they all display correctly. What's going on here... 

 
site: http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/index.html
css: http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/css/juganaut.css
 
any help would be appreciated 
hugely...
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] CENTERING SITE & WRAPPER PROBLEMS.

[Jackie Reid]

Thanks all... I have fixed the problem with your 
help,
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Leo J. O'Campo 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 3:35 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] CENTERING SITE & 
  WRAPPER PROBLEMS.
  Jackie the info in this pdf file is just what you need.
  
  

  LeoOn Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 12:59 AM, Jackie Reid 
  wrote:
  Hi all...I 
have a couple of problems here that i dont seem to be able to nut out, any 
help would be greatly appreciated if there is anyone around on the day 
before the easter break. Firstly 
the site centers just fine in ie but is aligned left in firefox...why is 
this so? Secondly 
and more confusing, I have the site contained in a wrapper but in firefox 
the wrapper doesnt wrap, it doesnt seem to contain any of the elements 
that I have put in there. (if you look in firefox the wrapper is the little 
white bit at the top that is supposed to fill the whole site) Looks fine in 
ie again. If 
i display it as  table-cell; it seems to work but thats not widely 
supported is it?   site: 
http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/index.htmlcss: 
http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/css/juganaut.css  Jackie 
ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[WSG] CENTERING SITE & WRAPPER PROBLEMS.

[Jackie Reid]

Hi all...
I have a couple of problems here that i dont seem 
to be able to nut out, any help would be greatly appreciated if there is anyone 
around on the day before the easter break.
 
Firstly the site centers just fine in ie but is 
aligned left in firefox...why is this so?
 
Secondly and more confusing, I have the site 
contained in a wrapper but in firefox the wrapper doesnt wrap, it doesnt 
seem to contain any of the elements that I have put in there. (if you look in 
firefox the wrapper is the little white bit at the top that is supposed to fill 
the whole site) Looks fine in ie again. 
 
If i display it as  table-cell; it seems to 
work but thats not widely supported is it?
 
 
 
site: http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/index.html
css: http://www.mockorange.com.au/mocksites/test/jugernaut/css/juganaut.css
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Accessibility Headache Starting

[Jackie Reid]

Thanks to Manuel and  Mike... that gives me loads to get started with.

Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Manuel González Noriega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility Headache Starting


El jue, 18-03-2004 a las 00:37, Jackie Reid escribió:
> Is this OT?  if it is sorry but
>

> Like Chris Strafford I find the w3 site a bit intimidating so would
> greatly appreciate it if someone could point me in the direction of a
> site or book or something that talks straight English on the subject.

You've got two awesome online books on the subject

Start with Mark Pilgrim's Dive Into Accesibility, it'll get you up to
speed in a second
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/

And then proceed to
Joe Clark's Building Accesible Websites
http://www.joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/


Them lurk around http://webaim.org, http://www.accessify.com/ and
http://www.accessifyforum.com/

-- 
Manuel González Noriega
Simplelógica, construcción web
URL: http://simplelogica.net
EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65

Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/

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[WSG] Accessibility Headache Starting

[Jackie Reid]

Is this OT?  if it is sorry but
 

I sat here last night reading up on accessibility 
after reading the article at http://www.ergoboy.com/news/uk_user_friendly_website_disabled.php about new legislation in the UK.
 
I frankly don't know if I can cope with all this! 
After the trauma of trying to get css and valid stuff up and happening I now 
have to deal with accessibility. I have read a number of bits and pieces on the 
subject, downloaded weird accessibility validating programmes to test em out... 
and couldn't understand a darn thing they were talking about. 
 
Like Chris Strafford I find the w3 site a bit 
intimidating so would greatly appreciate it if someone could point me in the 
direction of a site or book or something that talks straight English on the 
subject. 
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[Jackie Reid]

what happens when you have a number of  tags that relate to different
sections? Like #content h1 or #right h1 is that an issue.


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "russ weakley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 6:35 AM
Subject: [WSG] A rave about 's


> I've been thinking about a post from a few days ago that has been
bothering
> me. The comments in this post highlight the difference between "valid
> markup" and "structurally-sound markup":
>
> Question:
> "...you have the headings of these as s I'm not sure if you should
have
> more than one  a page? is that correct?"
>
> Reply:
> "You can have as many h1's as you want"
>
> >From a valid code point of view, this is correct. Your page can be
littered
> with  elements. But what about from a document-structure point
> of view?
>
> For some devices, such as screen readers and search engine robots,
> well-structured headings are very important.
>
> One example is how screen readers access a page. Blind users cannot skim
> across a page like sighted users, so they need mechanisms that let them
> skip across the content using audio. Two main methods involve
> skipping across content using links or headings.
>
> When a blind user comes to a page, many screen readers will start by
saying
> something like "This page has 38 links". The blind user can tab through
> these links until they get to one they want. The same applies to headings.
> Each heading on the page is ordered by weight and this is significant to
the
> screen reader - and in turn the blind user. If an item is given 
weight
> on the page, there is an assumption that it is very important content, or
a
> major section of content. If there are too many  elements on the page,
> the heading weight and structure becomes blurred.
>
> Outside of the web, this can also be seen in a poorly laid out MSWord
> documents, for example. An inexperienced user of MSWord will mark-up all
> headings in bold. However, there is no hierarchy of heading levels so it
> becomes hard to understand what is a major heading, a subheading or a
> sub-sub-heading. The page structure may not be clear to someone else who
> tries to read it. People who use MSWord correctly assign headings using
the
> styled heading levels. They are giving the page semantic meaning and the
> page structure is clear to anyone who reads it.
>
> So, the point of this rave? While using multiple 's are valid, you
> should also think about the underlying page structure - and think about
how
> other devices will interpret this structure.
>
> There is an online tool at W3C called the "semantic data extractor" (what
a
> fantastic name!) that can be used to test your page for basic heading
> structure and hierarchy. If you type in a URL you will see a result
showing
> how the pages heading are organised - including their nesting. Very basic
> output, but worth a look:
> http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html
>
> Russ
>
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> *
>
>

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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] New CSS site

[Jackie Reid]

As Peter mentioned in an earlier post, "For inspiration, look at traditional
design as well as other websites"
I think this is the best advice that could be offered to anyone who doesn't
have a design background.

With the wonders of css we should be able to reproduce any design we like.
Magazines, Press Ads, TV ads, Billboards and even junk mail can be an
inspiration in layout and colours.

Another thing that is not always treated with the respect it deserves is the
content. Headings, subheader, content all have a job to do, ie: attract
attention, reinforce and sell. There are many books/sites out there on
advertising that works and why it works. Zeldman covers it a bit in Taking
your Talent to the Web I think. We should all  take into account "rules"
(for want of a better word) that have been established for a long long time
in the print media and adapt them to the web... most sites are still selling
something whether its a service or a product and the content should be
considered as important as the layout...

...so now we need professional copywriters as well... oh well thats just the
way the mop flops!!!

Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Kear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:18 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] New CSS site


You are quite right, Hugh.  I'm a professional at what I do, and I tell my
clients that there's nothing stopping them getting out notepad or Frontpage
and doing their own sites.  There aren't any secret programming techniques
in web sites. But they don't because they're good at running an off-road car
parts business or being a professional athlete, and I'm good at developing
web code.   The exact same argument applies to graphic arts.  I own
Fireworks and Photoshop, and I can manipulate images well enough to
eliminate a background or put it out of focus to make the foreground object
stand out, I can colour correct and correct lighting, and I can make
buttons,  and I can crop pictures to improve composition.

But all those things are mechanical.  Anyone, given the instructions, can do
that.  What takes talent, vision and skills that I don't have is taking a
white screen and envisioning something beautiful on it.  A blank canvas so
to speak  and producing a wonderful piece of art, that also works as a web
page.

So you're right.  I ought to be working with a graphic artist, and if I did
my sites would look far better.

But I work mostly with tiny businesses, for whom building even a
brochureware site is something of a stretch.  The site just wont pay for two
people to do the job.  And I'm too conscious of a mortgage debt and school
fees and the need to eat to allow someone else to take away some of the
money.   So I have to do it all by myself whether I like it or not.  And in
the process I'm learning quite a lot about artistic matters, although I'll
be the first to acknowledge I'm never going to make it as an artist.

One day perhaps.

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Hugh Todd
Sent: Monday, 15 March 2004 11:13 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] New CSS site

Michael,

Peter Gifford's beautiful work makes me wonder if I should call myself
a designer at all.

But what he didn't say was what I have long maintained.

The fact that everyone (more or less) can pick up a pencil does not
mean that everyone can draw beautifully.

In the same way, the fact that everyone on this list either can, or is
learning to, make web pages using CSS does not make them graphic
designers.

I know this is an obvious point, but I would recommend that if you want
to make beautiful sites you engage the services of a professional
graphic designer to produce Photoshop images of what your site could
look like. It will take some collaboration, but when your CSS makes the
design come to life you will see how graphic design works, not simply
to make things look beautiful but to add intelligence and simplicity
(if simplicity can be "added") to the conveying of information.

All the best! -Hugh Todd

> I'm sorry, Peter, but I hate your new site. I LOATHE it.
>
> Oh, not because you did a rotten job in my opinion. On the contrary,
> it's so good it reminds me of my own shortcomings in the
> artistic/design department.
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Re: [WSG] A kinda Simplequiz

[Jackie Reid]

> Manuel Gonzlez Noriega wrote:
b) doesn't work well for multi-paragraph questions or answers.

scuse my ignorance but is it not ok to this:
first bit
   next bit
   first bit
   next bit
   and another bit


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Moser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] A kinda Simplequiz


> 
> Manuel Gonzlez Noriega wrote:
> > How would you mark up an interview?
> > a) qa
> > b) qa
> > c) qa
> > d) Other
> > This afternoon, at work, we were feeling risky and went for a) and i'm
> > curious if you think it's fine, plain wrong or so-so.
> 
> I'd think it would be situation dependent.
> a) doesn't work well if there are multiple interviewers or interviewees, 
> or for a debate.
> b) doesn't work well for multi-paragraph questions or answers.
> c) has a combination of both problems, plus isn't very semantic
> 
> a) seems like the best approach to me, with the addition of some class 
> attributes to indicate the speaker thusly:
> 
> Who are you?
> Bob Dole is Bob Dole
> I'm not Bob Dole
> 
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
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* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Jackie Reid]

In my struggles to come to terms with css, this 
list has been an absolute godsend as far as i am concerned, stranded as I am in 
sunny nq. Somehow it seems very much like a bunch of mates helping one 
another out. (That sounds a bit mushy but there you have it)
 
I haven't posted that often, however have read all 
emails avidly over a coffee and a cig during my down time. Russ's advice is 
always brilliant, along with many, many others, and lately the amount of 
moral support and help offered to members has given me a nice warm fuzzy 
feeling!!! Let's face it people unassociated with the industry just don't 
understand what we are going through here when things turn 
pearshaped.
 
I dont know what the answer is but I do know I 
would like this list to continue on more or less as it is but do understand the 
need for standards stuff too... but at present this is my best resource for 
guiding me through the maze that is css. I think I have come ahead in leaps and 
bounds as a direct result of this list. So thanks to all.
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Universal 
  Head 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:36 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this 
  mailing list
  It's tricky, because now that I'm getting up to speed with CSS 
  I tend to skim and skip the 'how-tos'. But then, I never would have got up to 
  speed in the first place without the 'how-to' help from this 
  list.POn 10/03/2004, at 12:55 PM, Mark Stanton 
  wrote:
  I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to 
yours - hefinds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting 
because they givehim a good idea of issues that he has to design around 
and techniques thatwe can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day 
so he doesn't reallyget much from the "how do I get this float working" 
posts.Universal 
  Head Design 
  That Works.7/43 Bridge Rd StanmoreNSW 2048 AustraliaT (+612) 
  9517 1466F (+612) 9565 4747E [EMAIL PROTECTED]W 
  www.universalhead.com

[WSG] Whats going on

[Jackie Reid]

Hi you lot
 
Can someone please explain this to 
me...
 
I have had a site up and running for a couple of 
months and doing its thing just fine. Now today out of nowhere it suddenly 
decides that absolute positioning is out and all those sections of the site 
simply disappeared from view.
 
After much tooing and frowing I decided to 
try  floating them instead and Voila there are all the bits i couldnt see 
before. WHY WHY WHY...Why would this have 
happened. Got me totally beat.
 
Anyone had any problems like this before and if so 
what the heck was it.
 
(must admit that im pretty proud of myself for 
sorting it but thats not the point really)
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Scrolling off into the distance

[Jackie Reid]

Stop... dont do anything 
 
I think i fixed it by reading russ's thing on 
centering - fun for all . instead of margin 0 auto i did margin left 10% and 
margin right 10%... seems to have sorted it out. You are a marvel 
Russ...
 
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jackie Reid 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 2:20 
PM
  Subject: [WSG] Scrolling off into the 
  distance
  
  Sorry to bother you lot again...need more help. ( 
  I only ever ask you lot when I have driven myself to drink over the 
  problem)
   
  But... 
   
  When I resize the file http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php 
  in firebird it keeps scrolling away and out the left hand side of the screen, 
  therefore losing the navigation when resized to 800x600. What's the 
  story?
   
  All ok in ie for a change.
   
  code here http://www.healthpoint.com.au/css/new.css
   
   
  Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
  Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
  4035
   
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[WSG] Scrolling off into the distance

[Jackie Reid]

Sorry to bother you lot again...need more help. ( I 
only ever ask you lot when I have driven myself to drink over the 
problem)
 
But... 
 
When I resize the file http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php 
in firebird it keeps scrolling away and out the left hand side of the screen, 
therefore losing the navigation when resized to 800x600. What's the 
story?
 
All ok in ie for a change.
 
code here http://www.healthpoint.com.au/css/new.css
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Positioning driving me nuts

[Jackie Reid]

Ben...You are amazing...thanks so much...

I checked your response last night at hoome and implemented it immediately
and it worked like a charm.

Funny how you can look at something till cross eyed and just not see whats
going on...someone else has a quick look and sorts it...as Tommy Cooper
would say just like that!

Thanks again.


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Bishop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning driving me nuts


>
> Jackie,
>
> > Why won't the content sit up where it should here
> > http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php want the stuff that starts home
> > >> new2 to sit up in the middle there and it just won't!! driving me
> > nuts, nuts, nuts.
>
> It won't sit up there because all the content you want to sit beside
> that floated "navinsert" are block level elements with widths of 100%.
> ie: (150px + 100%) width does not fit into the 100% width of the parent
> container.
>
> That's why the content wraps below. Sounds dubious? Add
> "display:inline;" to your H2 and it will jump straight up there.
>
> As for a fix, your wrapping container is fixed width, so enclose all
> your middle content in a div that is 800px-(side columns widths) wide
> and float this left.
>
> hth,
>
> Ben
> http://www.daemon.com.au/
>
> Note: Your container is set at 800px wide. If you're targeting PC
> 800x600 minimum screen resolution, this should be 770px max, to take
> into account browser chrome and scrollbar.
>
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>

*
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* 



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* 

Re: [WSG] Positioning driving me nuts

[Jackie Reid]

Ben...You are amazing...thanks so much...

I checked your response last night at hoome and implemented it immediately
and it worked like a charm.

Funny how you can look at something till cross eyed and just not see whats
going on...someone else has a quick look and sorts it...as Tommy Cooper
would say just like that!

Thanks again.


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Bishop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning driving me nuts


>
> Jackie,
>
> > Why won't the content sit up where it should here
> > http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php want the stuff that starts home
> > >> new2 to sit up in the middle there and it just won't!! driving me
> > nuts, nuts, nuts.
>
> It won't sit up there because all the content you want to sit beside
> that floated "navinsert" are block level elements with widths of 100%.
> ie: (150px + 100%) width does not fit into the 100% width of the parent
> container.
>
> That's why the content wraps below. Sounds dubious? Add
> "display:inline;" to your H2 and it will jump straight up there.
>
> As for a fix, your wrapping container is fixed width, so enclose all
> your middle content in a div that is 800px-(side columns widths) wide
> and float this left.
>
> hth,
>
> Ben
> http://www.daemon.com.au/
>
> Note: Your container is set at 800px wide. If you're targeting PC
> 800x600 minimum screen resolution, this should be 770px max, to take
> into account browser chrome and scrollbar.
>
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>

*
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* 

[WSG] Positioning driving me nuts

[Jackie Reid]

In my wisdom i have decided to revamp a site that's 
not even finished yet and now I've broke it!!
 
Why won't the content sit up where it should here 
http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php 
want the stuff that starts home >> new2 to sit up in the middle there and 
it just won't!! driving me nuts, nuts, nuts.
 
Please help...i keep looking but cant see the wood 
for the trees.
 
 
code is here http://www.healthpoint.com.au/css/new.css 

 
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup

[Jackie Reid]

>  And don't get me started on s ;)
>

this bit seems to have been swept under the carpet..

I'm really interested to hear what is wrong with 's for navigation as,
to my pedantic and not so up there with css sort of a mind, it actually
seems like a pretty darn good idea to me.


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Martin Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup


>
> >  And don't get me started on s ;)
> >
>
> Come on then... about the s ;o) I was going to suggest them, since
> the inclusion of the  as well as the  has its' benefits.
> However, I know there are some downsides (but I am yet to come across a
> significant one).
>
> Kind regards
> Martin Chapman
>
> --
>
> Web development, identity and design.
>
> co-ord.com Limited
> 9 Tynwald Road
> West Kirby
> Merseyside
> CH48 4DA
>
> Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://www.co-ord.com
>
> --
>
> *
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> *
>
>

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Re: [WSG] Benefits or not of @import style sheets

[Jackie Reid]

Excellent read... thank you.
That cleared it up for me.


Jackie Reid


- Original Message - 
From: "russ weakley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Benefits or not of @import style sheets


> Hi Jackie - read this earlier post:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg00841.html
>
> Russ
>
>
> > Afternoon all...
> >
> > Can someone please explain to me the benefits of the @import thing or
point me
> > in the right direction to see why i should use it please.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jackie Reid
> >
> >
>
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>

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[WSG] Benefits or not of @import style sheets

[Jackie Reid]

Afternoon all...
 
Can someone please explain to me the benefits of 
the @import thing or point me in the right direction to see why i should use it 
please.
 
 
 
Jackie Reid

Re: [WSG] Why cant i see the bullets?

[Jackie Reid]

Well Crikey!!!
 what do you know that works... 
brilliant ...thanks so much...I'm happy now. ;o)

Jackie Reid


- Original Message - 
From: "Luc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jackie Reid on wsg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Why cant i see the bullets?


> 
> Hello Jackie,
>   
> It was foretold that on 17-2-2004 @ 10:39:10 GMT+1000 (which was
> 1:39:10 where I live) Jackie Reid would mumble:
>   
> 
> 
> JR> unfortunately didn't seem to fix it any other ideas?
>   
> ul {
> list-style-type: disc;
> list-style-position:inside;
> margin-top: 6px;
> width: 60%;}
> 
> That should do it (tested it localy, not online though)
>  
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Luc
> _
> 
> http://www.dzinelabs.com
> 
> Powered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
> 2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 4 and using the best browser: Opera.
> 
> "Don't worry about the world ending today . . . It's already tomorrow
> in Australia."
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Why cant i see the bullets?

[Jackie Reid]

Whooops... didn't notice that and have been looking 
at the code till blue in the face... unfortunately didn't seem to fix it any 
other ideas? ...please :) 
 
Jackie Reid

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Donnermeyer 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:23 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Why cant i see the 
  bullets?
  li {color: #000;margin-top: 1px; background-color: 
  #bebe9d;padding: 1px 1px 1px 10px}try putting the missing ; in there at the end of the 
  padding...might be the issue.MDOn Feb 16, 2004, at 18:52, 
  Jackie Reid wrote:
  Hello Group... I 
need a bit of help here...ould someone please explain why I 
can't see the bullets in my  in IE... looks fine in 
firebird so whats the go! NOTE! 
- please ignore colours etc just working on the layout atm http://www.mockorange.com.au/test/one/index.php http://www.mockorange.com.au/test/one/css/first.css Thanks Jackie 
ReidMock 
Orange Web Site Development1st 
Floor92 
Victoria StreetMACKAY 
Q 4740Ph: 
07 4953 4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[WSG] Why cant i see the bullets?

[Jackie Reid]

Hello Group...
 
I need a bit of help here...ould someone 
please explain why I can't see the bullets in 
my  in IE... looks fine in firebird so whats the 
go!
 
NOTE! - please ignore colours etc just working on 
the layout atm
 
http://www.mockorange.com.au/test/one/index.php
 
http://www.mockorange.com.au/test/one/css/first.css
 
Thanks 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Friday Afternoon Funny

[Jackie Reid]

Hi Chris I thought that was really really funny and so did everyone else
in the office.

in fact its going to join the other quotes I have printed out and stuck on
the wall  that we read when we need to raise a smile in times of stress.


Jackie Reid
Mock Orange Web Site Development
1st Floor
92 Victoria Street
MACKAY Q 4740
Ph: 07 4953 4035

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Blown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Friday Afternoon Funny


>
> Of course James, I know that for sure, just thought it was a funny way
> of putting it.. the paragraph is under 500px wide anyway
>
> I've tried to read without moving my eyes and its pretty hard.. ;)
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Fri, 2004-02-13 at 17:23, James Ellis wrote:
> > Hi Chris
> >
> > This is an important point they have raised - they are looking at
> > peripheral vision. We see a circle of about 6cm on screen in one go -
> > anything larger we have to move our eyes to take in more. This is why
> > newspapers tend to be in columns etc etc.
> >
> > The Zed man has some good writeups on how ~430px (whats the em?)  is
> > about the right line length - @ alistapart although where it is I don't
> > know as the search function has disappeared from that site.
> >
> > Cheers
> > James
> >
> >
> > Chris Blown wrote:
> >
> > >Thought I'd share this one with everyone, we received a list of
> > >corrections today from one of our clients, and we found a particularly
> > >humorous snippet. This correction was given in relation to paragraph
> > >line length.
> > >
> > >"It makes it hard for people to read if they have to keep moving their
> > >eyes"
> > >
> > >LOL!
> > >
> > >Cheers
> > >Chris Blown
> > >
> > >*
> > >The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > >*
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > *
> > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > *
> >
> >
> >
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>

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Re: [WSG] Re: Image float and text wrap

[Jackie Reid]

Hey Russyes i do... and here it is...

http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new/default.php

I seem to have all the side bits sorted out ( I should note that this is my
first attempt at a css only site ... actually my first styly sheet...so you
may find some crashing blunders in there as i am just feeling my way along
here!!!)

The bit i am talking about is the large image of mum and kid... if i dont
have enough content in that area...content changes every month... it all
sits up at the top and then i have this massive space under it. I hate that.

The other thing is when i dont have enough content to fill the section
the next header eg beauty slides up into the top section.. i hate that
too!!!

This is going to apply to all the lower sections too as there will be images
in each department.

Well that got that little lot off my chest. any help at all would be
hugely appreciated as i am all tuckered out here!!!

Cheers Jackie

- Original Message - 
From: "russ weakley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Image float and text wrap


> Hi Jackie,
>
> As with Michael the other day, welcome to the list!
> Have you got a URL so we can see it in action?
>
> >
> > Re: Image float etc
> >
> > Have finally found time to sit and read all the emails that come through
> > from you guys and lo and behold you answered the question that had been
> > driving me mad about image float and text wrap so thank you all for
that.
> >
> > Now i have another question.
> >
> > If i dont have enough text to "fill" the space taken by the image is
there
> > any way i can get the text to align itself  horizontally to the image so
> > that theres not a pile of space under the content before the next lot of
> > content comes in. (does that make sense?)
> >
> > Jackie
> >
> >
>
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Re: [WSG] Re: Image float and text wrap

[Jackie Reid]

Re: Image float etc

Have finally found time to sit and read all the emails that come through
from you guys and lo and behold you answered the question that had been
driving me mad about image float and text wrap so thank you all for that.

Now i have another question.

If i dont have enough text to "fill" the space taken by the image is there
any way i can get the text to align itself  horizontally to the image so
that theres not a pile of space under the content before the next lot of
content comes in. (does that make sense?)

Jackie



- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Bishop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Re: Image float and text wrap


>
> Hi Miles,
>
> There are several ways of accomplishing this. Here are three different
ways
> I've done:
>
> content (multiple block elements) floated right, image floated left.
> http://www.mxdu.com/
>
> image (accommodates variable width) floated left, content floated left -
> inline styles.
> http://www.brendansisson.com/
>
> image floated left, content floated left.
> http://www.leyland.com.au/
>
>
> All use "clear" to stop things going whack when there's insufficient
> content.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ben
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Subject: [WSG] Re: Image float and text wrap
>
> Can this be achieved without using tables?
>
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>
>

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