RE: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
From: Joe Ortenzi Sent: 21 December 2007 07:32 Why not simply make people register for it? Then you have their details and if you make the registration process intelligent, they will be aware they are being tracked and more likely to behave. All sorts of benefits and if the discussion forum is inside there as well then you can even claim some web 2.0-ness as an added benefit of registration! This to me seems like a good option, and by registering someone you could then give them a doctored version of the data including unique information to tie that particular view of the data with their session. That unique ID could be in a table cell, in the title of the page, as a footer etc. If you found a copy of that data with the unique session ID anywhere you could trace it back to a date, time, IP address and registered user. Of course the problem there is that anyone with a bit of HTML skill could remove the unique ID from the page. Still, it may help to deter casual copiers. Chris This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Dear All, Many thanks for all the feedback on this question. It really serves to back up my own opinions and the message that I have been trying to convey to the client. As someone mentioned - the client is sure that they had 'seen it done somewhere'. My own view is along the lines of others - if the content is on a web page then someone can copy it one way or another, and this just has to be accepted. The client is intending to make the data available on a subscription basis, so that at least restricts access to paying customers. Thanks again for all the input - I will summarise and present to the client. Have a great Christmas one and all. Nick Chris Taylor wrote: From: Joe Ortenzi Sent: 21 December 2007 07:32 Why not simply make people register for it? Then you have their details and if you make the registration process intelligent, they will be aware they are being tracked and more likely to behave. All sorts of benefits and if the discussion forum is inside there as well then you can even claim some web 2.0-ness as an added benefit of registration! This to me seems like a good option, and by registering someone you could then give them a doctored version of the data including unique information to tie that particular view of the data with their session. That unique ID could be in a table cell, in the title of the page, as a footer etc. If you found a copy of that data with the unique session ID anywhere you could trace it back to a date, time, IP address and registered user. Of course the problem there is that anyone with a bit of HTML skill could remove the unique ID from the page. Still, it may help to deter casual copiers. Chris This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements innovative web and internet solutions zend/php mysql approved partner email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +44 1749 676798 www: www.logical.co.uk skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587 logical elements, 34 Chamberlain Street, Wells, Somerset, BA5 2PJ --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Nick Roper wrote: We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The best solution I can think of is to implement a policy to cover that content. Either get the user to sign a non-disclosure agreement or set this up electronically with a screen that has a check box to say the user agrees to the non-disclousre policy before proceeding to view the content - maybe the first time they log in. This way if they breach it you have some legal recourse (maybe?). But importantly, they are made aware of the seriousness regarding the use of the information and the consequences of breaching the trust put in them. You could add some javascript to popup some reminders on certain keyboard actions etc that some users will see and some won't - I guess it reminds them of the situation. And maybe add a small disclaimer to the bottom of every page stating the terms conditions. -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Nick Roper wrote: Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. Apart from putting copyright information on it and relying on visitors integrity to not plagiarize it there is not a great deal they can do. That is unless they have deep pockets and a team of lawyers to track their information and hunt any offenders down. Even if the information is displayed as an image they can always have someone type it up. If they are so concerned about their information then perhaps they shouldn't publish it to the web? Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
It's rather off-topic, but more to the point it's impossible, and your main task at this point is to explain to your client why even trying to do it is pointless and silly. If they can see the text, the text is on their computer. As Andrew said, either they want their information on the web or they don't. The well-known blogger Heather Dooce Armstrong tells a tale about a client who wanted to do this once. She replied that yes, we could do that and hey, while we're at it, we should also include some code in the page to disable their printer! The client thought that was a great idea. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Roper Sent: Friday, 21 December 2007 9:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page. Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:48:17 +, Nick Roper wrote: Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? You can make it *harder* to do things like this, but you can't completely stop determined and skilled people. If nothing else, they can always take a screen dump of the window and drop the image somewhere else. Lots of techniques can be used - the invisible image layer over is one. Writing the page with gobbledygook javascript is another. A strong but polite copyright message will work for some percentage of people. But all of them will only slow people down - once you've published on the internet the content is out there and it is impossible to completely prevent reuse. warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane, Australia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Nick, in general, the web is designed to allow people to copy and paste freely. Web Standards are, by and large, designed to support the maximum interchange of information. So, in my opinion, you can't do this using web standards. That said: you could output the results into an XML file off the web root, then consume and display it into a Flash file (or build the entire interface as a Flash client). In that way you can render the text as an image or non-copyable text fairly easily. Or, you could put the output into PDF format, with copying prevented. Or, you could render it as an image on the server (sort of a poor man's digital rights management). You may not be able to read it properly though. Applying a transparent image will not be very effective as the data can be exposed by either looking at the HTML source or by turning off images using the browser. cheers Paul Paul Minty Director mintleaf studio We design create stylish websites Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000 Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne T. 03 9662 9344 F. 03 9662 9255 M. 0418 307 475 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mintleafstudio.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Roper Sent: Friday, 21 December 2007 10:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page. Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Hi This is an oft asked question by a lot of clients and relies on a basic misundertanding of how documents are passed around the internet. Basically, it is impossible (see examples below). If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Additionally, copy+paste is one of the most fundamental actions on any device, disabling it is pretty rude and nigh on impossible anway - on some desktop environments you can determine your own keystrokes to copy and paste that are known only to you and can't be detected by client side code e.g Ctrl-Alt-Tab-C for copying Examples: 1. Lets disable right click functionaity! results: - users lose functionality - easy workaround workaround 1: $ wget http://www.example.com/ 'copy of your home page.html' workaround 2: install some firefox extension to ignore right click disable requests by a page workaround 3: use the google cache or the web archive workaround 4: take it out of the brower cache - where it is copied anyway 2. Let's encrypt the html! results: no such thing - it's encoding, not encryption. When you encode something anyone can decode it. If it is encryption you'd have to pass a shared key to a public resource or expect your visitors to have that encryption key. slows down page rendering - it has to be decoded by JS usually. workaround 1: - decode_function(html) 'decoded copy.html' 3. Let's disable the printer requests! - see workaround 1.3,1.1,1.4 4. Use images / flash / pdf to render content - content generally inaccessible to search engines and screen readers - decode with OCR technology (crackers can easily do this with captchas) 5. transparent image over content - adblock the image workaround 1: - save as file.html html only Copyright infringment is best left up to the lawyers - but then there is the argument of content being in the public domain anyway. If you are in a closed intranet environment one way to do it would be to employ someone who runs around everytime a page is rendered in a browser and shouts very loudly remember not to copy and paste! :) Thanks James On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:48:17 am Nick Roper wrote: Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Don't forget, with all the best barriers in place, one can always transcribe the content so the only real solution, as James wrote: If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Holiday cheers. Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page. Hi This is an oft asked question by a lot of clients and relies on a basic misundertanding of how documents are passed around the internet. Basically, it is impossible (see examples below). If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Additionally, copy+paste is one of the most fundamental actions on any device, disabling it is pretty rude and nigh on impossible anway - on some desktop environments you can determine your own keystrokes to copy and paste that are known only to you and can't be detected by client side code e.g Ctrl-Alt-Tab-C for copying Examples: 1. Lets disable right click functionaity! results: - users lose functionality - easy workaround workaround 1: $ wget http://www.example.com/ 'copy of your home page.html' workaround 2: install some firefox extension to ignore right click disable requests by a page workaround 3: use the google cache or the web archive workaround 4: take it out of the brower cache - where it is copied anyway 2. Let's encrypt the html! results: no such thing - it's encoding, not encryption. When you encode something anyone can decode it. If it is encryption you'd have to pass a shared key to a public resource or expect your visitors to have that encryption key. slows down page rendering - it has to be decoded by JS usually. workaround 1: - decode_function(html) 'decoded copy.html' 3. Let's disable the printer requests! - see workaround 1.3,1.1,1.4 4. Use images / flash / pdf to render content - content generally inaccessible to search engines and screen readers - decode with OCR technology (crackers can easily do this with captchas) 5. transparent image over content - adblock the image workaround 1: - save as file.html html only Copyright infringment is best left up to the lawyers - but then there is the argument of content being in the public domain anyway. If you are in a closed intranet environment one way to do it would be to employ someone who runs around everytime a page is rendered in a browser and shouts very loudly remember not to copy and paste! :) Thanks James On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:48:17 am Nick Roper wrote: Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Man I so agree this! I had a client once, selling small bags and jewellery. She wanted it impossible to save her pictures of products as she heard it could be done and we were being lax by not doing it. She was afraid of seeing knockoffs in china. Completely forgetting that the bootleggers would simply buy a few in order to copy them She didn't understand that the files were already copied onto the viewers computer and if a nasty copyright-infringing Hong Kong company wanted a copy of her items all they had to do was look, Removing copy and print functionality just made the site worse for the rest of her customers (you know, the ones you want to be happy so they'll spend more!). We eventually dropped her (mad as a hatter for many other reasons!) but if your client doesn't want their content read it shouldn't be on the web. ANy other protection problem, once hacked (and it will be hacked!) will simply mean you don't trust your viewers, visitors, etc... and in turn they won't like you either. Not the sort of relationship you want to foster. Why not simply make people register for it? Then you have their details and if you make the registration process intelligent, they will be aware they are being tracked and more likely to behave. All sorts of benefits and if the discussion forum is inside there as well then you can even claim some web 2.0-ness as an added benefit of registration! Shops have cameras and security guards to make the fact that we are being observed in their premises as unobtrusive as possible yet still allow some semblance of security and deterrent. We accept this as long as the guards aren't right in our pockets and the cameras are hidden in corners and in the ceiling. Joe On Dec 21 2007, at 03:09, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Don't forget, with all the best barriers in place, one can always transcribe the content so the only real solution, as James wrote: If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Holiday cheers. Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page. Hi This is an oft asked question by a lot of clients and relies on a basic misundertanding of how documents are passed around the internet. Basically, it is impossible (see examples below). If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Additionally, copy+paste is one of the most fundamental actions on any device, disabling it is pretty rude and nigh on impossible anway - on some desktop environments you can determine your own keystrokes to copy and paste that are known only to you and can't be detected by client side code e.g Ctrl-Alt-Tab-C for copying Examples: 1. Lets disable right click functionaity! results: - users lose functionality - easy workaround workaround 1: $ wget http://www.example.com/ 'copy of your home page.html' workaround 2: install some firefox extension to ignore right click disable requests by a page workaround 3: use the google cache or the web archive workaround 4: take it out of the brower cache - where it is copied anyway 2. Let's encrypt the html! results: no such thing - it's encoding, not encryption. When you encode something anyone can decode it. If it is encryption you'd have to pass a shared key to a public resource or expect your visitors to have that encryption key. slows down page rendering - it has to be decoded by JS usually. workaround 1: - decode_function(html) 'decoded copy.html' 3. Let's disable the printer requests! - see workaround 1.3,1.1,1.4 4. Use images / flash / pdf to render content - content generally inaccessible to search engines and screen readers - decode with OCR technology (crackers can easily do this with captchas) 5. transparent image over content - adblock the image workaround 1: - save as file.html html only Copyright infringment is best left up to the lawyers - but then there is the argument of content being in the public domain anyway. If you are in a closed intranet environment one way to do it would be to employ someone who runs around everytime a page is rendered in a browser and shouts very loudly remember not to copy and paste! :) Thanks James On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:48:17 am Nick Roper wrote: Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view
