Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-31 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
I strongly recommend you disable this feature of windows on any systems you set up for the less computer literate because I can tell you form experience with novice users that its a very bad feature. David Dorward wrote: On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose

Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Kane Tapping
Hi , Just wanted to join the chorus and say that poping windows is behaviour and should not be a part of the HTML spec. It really is akin to manipulating browser chrome and other designer land grabs (i.e. forgetting its the users broswer, not yours). Somethings i have found is that the

Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Diego La Monica
Another solution is http://wili.diegolamonica.info that allow you to open discretional popup windows. That page is in Italian only but in few days it will be translated in more other languages. It doesn't require that you are skilled in javascript, but requires to follow only the instruction that

Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Nancy Gill wrote: Actually, this link from the W3C suggests the use of both target and title .. target to open the window and title to tell the user that a new window will open. Example 2: A link that opens in a new window In HTML 4.01 the |target=_blank| attribute can be used on an

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread David Dorward
On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Joe Ortenzi wrote: ... The help application opens a new window because it is designed to help you interact with the application you requested help with. It would be pretty dumb to delete the thing that you requested help with to be replaced with the help modal.!! Exactly my point. And

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Andrew Maben
On Mar 28, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard to conceptualize, but they exist. Ouch... However if the subject is still opening new windows vis a vis the target attribute, it seems to me hard to conceptualize a web app that

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Andrew Maben
On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users altogether. (IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...) Andrew

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Diego La Monica
Because it's against accessibility of a webpage. On 27/03/2008, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript.

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Nancy Gill
I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Rochester oliveira
For acessibility and usabilitty issues i think we shouldn't use this. http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html http://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag-curric/sam77-0.htm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2002Apr/0100.html

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml It's not part of XHTML 1.0 Strict or Transitional -- it's part of XHTML 1.0 Frameset. Choose the doctype you want to validate to. Or use the JavaScript approach. Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choices :-)

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thomas Thomassen
Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I for one find it very annoying when sites force open a new window. If I want to navigate a link I open the link up in a new tab. Forcing the link to open up in a new window doesn't make me stay on the site, it just makes me click extra

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Ant Tears
Hi Michael, If I recall / understood correctly, the opening of a new browser window was seen by the W3C as functionality and therefore consigned to scripting. As for web standards prohibiting opening of new windows, this AA requirement is a little ambiguous for my taste: 10.1 Until user agents

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Nancy Gill
I see your point, Thom. The exception, IMO, is when you link to a PDF .. the Acrobat Reader takes over the window and the only way to go back in the same window is to use the back button in the browser .. not very good practice, IMO. Most people would just close the reader thinking they would

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Thomas Thomassen wrote: Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. Making assumptions about users' needs and behavior is your job as a designer/developer. Which is not to say everyone makes the best possible decisions. :-) Not everything built with (X)HTML is a brochureware

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread David Dorward
On 27 Mar 2008, at 15:44, Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml You read wrong. It is not part of Strict (HTML or XHTML), it is part of Transitional. Why not. Opening new windows is behaviour and thus out of scope for a markup language that

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread David Dorward
On 27 Mar 2008, at 16:31, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml It's not part of XHTML 1.0 Strict or Transitional It is part of Transitional. -- it's part of XHTML 1.0 Frameset. Frameset is for frameSET documents, i.e.

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread David Dorward
On 27 Mar 2008, at 16:09, Rob Kirton wrote: I would recommend that you use target=_new and then use XHTML transitional DTD Don't do that. _new is not (X)HTML. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#h-6.16 Paraphrasing: Except for the reserved names (_blank, _self, _parent, _top), frame

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thomas Thomassen
Sure, there are cases where you would wish to open a new window. But I wouldn't compare a website and a web application, or desktop application. For websites I don't see the need to pop up windows left and right because the links lead off-site. This is something that's often done with the intent

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Thomas Thomassen wrote: Frames and popup windows is fine features to use in web based applications. I'll agree to that. Which is exactly my point -- why remove (or even deprecate) a useful capability because it's been abused by some? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Andrew Maben
On Mar 27, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: of course you are right there, however if the brief says so I know, I know... sigh / I'm in the middle of half a dozen conversations in which which I'm being commanded to make hideous assaults on usability - but I do feel duty-bound in

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thomas Thomassen
As for PDFs I find it ok that they open in a new window. As a personal preferance. But for regular links I feel that it's best leaving them alone. I've seen many novice computer users get confused when a link opens in a new window as they don't allways realise they're now navigating in a new

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Nancy Gill
I have seen that too Thom .. and you have a good point. I have also had clients specifically request that while they want to link to other sites, they don't want the user to be off their site either. And even I don't do frames. ;) Nancy - Original Message - From: Thomas

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Darren Lovelock
I agree, where possible, you shouldnt make decisions for your visitors. Users will return to a website using the back button if they want to. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 _ From: [EMAIL

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thierry Koblentz
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not.

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Jens-Uwe Korff
Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I second that. Originally I had the target solution, then (to make it XHTML-compliant) an inline JS solution. With the next redesign I will throw it out altogether and just indicate external links through CSS, but leave it to the user to

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited