Jonathan T. Sage wrote:
hear hear! take a look at google with a term like '3 click rule'.
Use a splash screen, and you've limited yourself to delivering your
product in 2 clicks. that's a challange. Not to mention, if you use
something fancy like flash for the splash screen, 9 times out of 10,
I agree with you.
I would love to attend or even arrange the meetings in
my area.
Any help / comments / suggestions are needed for
arranging WSG meetings in my area ?
Thank you,
-Meraj Khattak
--- Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One thing I was disappointed with in the survey:
How important is the spelling of your website to you?
People who can read a website using their site is normally able to ignore
spelling mistakes as they can directly recognise the intended meaning.
A screen reader however will have a lot more trouble with an incorrectly spelt
word. It will
Hi Natalie
I can't help you with this problem because I'm just a newbie to web
standards, but I thought I should point out that you have an additional
problem. As the font size is increased in both Safari MacIE, the columns
do not grow with the text and some of the text at the bottom, therefore,
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
People who can read a website using their site is normally
able to ignore spelling mistakes
I'm sure the irony of getting that sentence wrong
(People...*are*...) is not lost on the list.
I'd surmise that it's off topic, nonetheless.
Patrick
Hi Hope
Thanks for that comment. The design is fixed height by client request.
They were given the options of overflow:scroll, :auto or :none, with
the implications of each and they chose none. Sometimes even the
strongest of arguments cannot get a client to realise that not
everyone views a site
I am
curious as to why Firefox only understands the title attribute when
creating tool tips, why cant we just use ALT? Cause if we want tool
tips on our sites to work on all browsers this means we have to enter
an ALT TITLE attribute which doubles the code for the same thing?
Not very nice
Hi Patrick,
I am glad that you spotted the intentional use of \'site\' instead of \'sight\'
as well ;)
Kind regards,
Bruce Aylward
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: 01 December 2004 09:48
To: [EMAIL
First I'd check if that problem can be fixed so that you can keep one
stylesheet.
You might have some error in styles that some browsers ignore and other
don't.
If by PC browsers you mean IE, check if it isn't one of it's well-known
bugs:
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html
Some
I try to explain to clients (and designers...) that user always knows
where he got to - people just don't type random adresses :)
Site design should already have logo and corporate look'n'feel so such
splash screen basically has no information on meaningful content.
Visitors seeking
I am curious as to why Firefox only understands the title attribute when
creating tool tips, why cant we just use ALT?
ALT is for alternate content only and should be visible only when image is
not. It is like noscript and other HTML fallbacks.
TITLE was created especially for tooltips.
All
Because it shouldn't. IE is the one who does it wrong. There is an
extension though, if you're that silly :/
http://www.gadgetopia.com/2004/11/09/FirefoxALTTagsAndTooltips.html
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:11:36 +, Joey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am curious as to why Firefox only understands
From: Joey
I am curious as to why Firefox only understands the title
attribute when creating tool tips, why cant we just use ALT?
Cause if we want tool tips on our sites to work on all browsers
this means we have to enter an ALT TITLE attribute which doubles
the code for the same thing?
Interesting challenge!
Maybe this might help: http://www.csscreator.com/menu/multimenu.php
These are some examples of multi-level menus here based upon the
Suckerfish principle. I haven't used them, but at least they're CSS
based with more than one level.
Hope that helps!
--
Jason Foss
Almost
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:11:36 +, Joey wrote:
I am curious as to why Firefox only understands the title attribute
when creating tool tips, why cant we just use ALT?
I'm not sure I understand your question.
Myself, I've always wondered why IE shows the alt attributes when, to
be properly
set mode digest wsg
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
For those who are bored, or putting off doing real work, a quick read...
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/remote/
The relevant CSS example is:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/remote/remote.htm
Russ
**
The discussion list for
Hello to all,
My question is similar to the mentioned TITLE and ALT-problem:
If we have a linked image, on many standard compliant sites I see:
a href=xxximg src=xxx alt=yyy title=yayaya
But I always prefer:
a href=xxx title=yayayaimg src=xxx alt=yyy
Is it wrong how I do it?
Or is it the
Article mentions some disadvantages of Flash. I'd like to add another
one, IMO biggest one:
* Flash links cannot be opened in new window (ie. user has no control
over it)
With growing popularity of tabbed browsing this starts to be huge
disadvantage, especially if Flash is used for menu.
G'day
The design is fixed height by client request. They were given the options
of
overflow:scroll, :auto or :none, with the implications of each and they
chose
none. Sometimes even the strongest of arguments cannot get a client to
realise that not everyone views a site at 1024x with fonts
From: Johannes Reiss
a href=xxximg src=xxx alt=yyy title=yayaya
But I always prefer:
a href=xxx title=yayayaimg src=xxx alt=yyy
Is it wrong how I do it?
It depends on what information you're providing with the
title. Are you clarifying something about the image, or
about the resource you're
Thanks for the suggestions Bert, good ideas.
I'll add a background to the link menu.
Any ideas why the menu breaks on mac IE though?
:)
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:44:47 +0800, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G'day
The design is fixed height by client request. They were given the options
Hi Patrick,
Thank you very much!
In my case the image is a thumbnail, on which you can see the content of the
image quite well and this links to the same image, but as a large image.
Because I always give information about the KB of the large image, I think
it's right to give the TITLE to the a
sorry, once more:
The point is, that modem users and other people, who surfe without shown
images can decide which of the images they want to see ... and therefore I
think, that I must provide both, the TITLE and the ALT, with this
information (that it is a link and the KB's of the larger image),
On 1 Dec 2004, at 2:11 pm, Natalie Buxton wrote:
Hi Guys
Having issues with a site just launched where the menu dissapears on
the Mac in IE.
[...]
http://www.manufacturingbestpractice.com.au
The pertaining stylesheet is
http://www.manufacturingbestpractice.com.au/gui/html/
style_advanced_home.css
From: Johannes Reiss
Because I always give information about the KB of the large
image, I think
it's right to give the TITLE to the a href-Tag.
Exactly, as the information about KB refers to the large version
you're linking TO, rather than the thumbnail itself, the title is
indeed best off
Thought this may be of interest (at least to those who can read german)
http://www.vorsprungdurchwebstandards.de/
The name made me chuckle, in any case :)
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
thanks for the link, I have so many links, but didn't know this one...
funny to see that it is not quite valide.
johannes
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 1:28 PM
Subject: [WSG] interesting new site
I am working on adding a new section to an existing web site. But I am running
into weird issues where boxes expand and only half pages display and
backgrounds disappear.
Any help in pointing me to info to correct these issues is greatly appreciated.
www.bcrich.com/customshop/cs_index.asp
Definitely kill the splash page... I had clicked through before your
graphics had downloaded, a complete time waster, and splashes are just
so 1998... but you do get points for listing Carson as a favorite artist.
Really nice navigation, The check boxes are delightful and provide great
hi,
hmm... there is something to do to validate the site, because the Doctype is
html 4.0, and you use / ...
but first do the following:
center is not close (around line 36),
div class=section-top is not closed,
greetings
johannes
- Original Message -
From: Jeff D. Reid [EMAIL
G'day
1. They want to use a full page graphic Splash Screen, which displays
the brand in all its glory before the user can enter the site.
My opinion:
* Waste of space
* Waste of bandwidth (at the server and user's end)
* Annoying.
I don't have stats on it, but know many people who get
Patrick -
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:41:27 +, Patrick H. Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jonathan T. Sage wrote:
hear hear! take a look at google with a term like '3 click rule'.
Use a splash screen, and you've limited yourself to delivering your
product in 2 clicks. that's a challange.
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:31:50 +1100, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Hi all :o)
Would appreciate any comments.
PLEASE NOTE: Mac people - sorry not there yet, so don't even bother.
I've served you up a crappy print style sheet :o(
Here she is -
I am willing to bet the poster of the 'remote' idea was talking about
a nav that looked like an actual remote. With rows and columns of
little round buttons. Not just a list on top of and surrounded by
remote graphics. That said, your example was fun! And to the
original poster, if your out
I noticed today the MSN search page has launched
their new beta version. It is standards based! It's almost xhtml1.0 strict
valid! Is this a sign of good things
fromMicrosoft?
http://search.msn.com
I'm
looking at the results page, I didn't check the splash page.
Ted
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:07:34 -0500, Tom Livingston
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am willing to bet the poster of the 'remote' idea was talking about
a nav that looked like an actual remote. With rows and columns of
little round buttons. Not just a list on top of and surrounded by
remote graphics.
guess it pays to read the *whole* article [crawls under desk]
;-)
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:07:34 -0500, Tom Livingston
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am willing to bet the poster of the 'remote' idea was talking about
a nav that looked like an actual remote. With rows and columns of
little round
What validator were you using, cause
i tried to validate it here:
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//search.msn.com/results.aspx%3FFORM%3DSRCHWB%26q%3Dcolour
And it dont validate?
Also neither does the spash screen... hmm i wonder what you saw?
Josef
Ted Drake wrote:
You
got me! I swear I looked at it this morning with the w3 validator and it only
had a few errors. I must have been validating the wrong tab. It's
really strange, when you look at the validation results and compare it to the
source code it seems to be looking at two different pages.
You mean this?
http://beta.search.msn.com/
Yeh this is ALMOST valid well its nice to know they are validating
their code.
Josef
Ted Drake wrote:
You got me! I swear I looked at it this morning
with the w3 validator and it only had a few errors. I must have been
validating the
I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com.
Bert Doorn wrote:
Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages.
--
Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio
Dolina 346 (TS)
I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy
tel./fax: +39 040 228 436
cell.: +39 348 7355 225
and I thought the wait would be worth it!
ohh, that's just lovely ! what a waste of 2 minutes of my life !
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dejan Kozina
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 06:19
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Images
Yep, I think it breaks all the rules alright. Don't show Nielsen, he might
have a stroke.
Yikes!
On 1/12/04 6:19 pm, Dejan Kozina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com.
Bert Doorn wrote:
Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with
I've heard of gathering info for contact databases, but that has to
be the worst implementation i've ever seen. What does that company do?
I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com.
Bert Doorn wrote:
Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages.
--
Dejan
Joey wrote:
You mean this?
http://beta.search.msn.com/
Yeh this is ALMOST valid well its nice to know they are validating their
code.
Ted Drake wrote:
those crafty MSN folks. Who knows what is up their sleeves.
!--[if gte IE 5] do make wonders too, doesn't it?
Why didn't they wrap everything
Did ya sign up so you could enter? :o)
On 12/1/2004 1:19:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com.
Bert Doorn wrote:
Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages.
--
Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio
Dolina 346
I've heard of gathering info for contact databases, but that has to be
the worst implementation i've ever seen. What does that company do?
Apparently, they gather info for contact databases.
--
Ben Curtis
WebSciences International
http://www.websciences.org/
v:
Ha! I bet they're not gathering much!
I've heard of gathering info for contact databases, but that has to
be the worst implementation i've ever seen. What does that company
do?
Apparently, they gather info for contact databases.
--
Ben Curtis
WebSciences International
and as a side note - if you (royal you, not directed to anybody in
particular on this list) are ever going to use a 'loading' graphic...
for the love of everything right, let 100% mean it. The bars that
start over hurt my soul...
~j
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:46:19 -0500, Tom Livingston
[EMAIL
No, if it was just IE, it would be easy and I wouldn't have needed to ask
the question. The trouble was that exactly the same problem was occurring in
Firefox. So I needed to isolate both. It's better now, thanks to using the
IE/Mac comment hack to just feed a new set of values to everything
Hi guys,
Could I please have a few Mac users (both IE and Safari) have a look at this
page and tell me if it's working right? My friend has looked at it on her
Mac and reported a few problems, but since her computer's been playing up
lately I want to check that there is actually a problem and not
Thanks
In trying to correct this, I have managed to break it in IE now.
I appreciate the help and after reviewing the code, I have realized that maybe
there is a better way to do this without it becoming so complicated with
div's.
Jeff
From: Johannes Reiss [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Seona Bellamy wrote:
Any PC users who want to look and give opinions would also be appreciated.
:)
The site: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/
You should try a better positioning-method for that curved menu.
The items leave the curved background-image and ends up all over the
place upon
I see problems in both.
In Safari 1.2.3, the navigation buttons separate (seeming to move progressively to the right), leaving funny white shapes where there should be a smooth grey curve.
In IE 5.2, the footer is in the middle of the page, overlaying One House Productions - is...
Looks good
Hmm... Any suggestions about how I could better do it so that it stays put?
I would have thought that absolute positioning with the coordinates given in
px would have been fairly static. :( I'm not sure what else to try.
Thanks for the compliment though. This is why I like working with a trained
In case anyone ever stops by my desk and notices that I've got that
show ALT as tooltip Mozilla extension installed, surely there's a
special case for developers? It's much easier to check alt attributes
with the tooltip than by reading source code after all.
Return Receipt
Your Re: [WSG] How exactly does IE fall short and where do I find
document standards-compatibility charts?
:
It's much easier to check alt attributes with the tooltip than by
reading source code after all.
You can install Web Developer Toolbar extension or press G in Opera.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
**
The discussion list for
Would
you please send me screenshots of these problems off-list? If I can at least see
exactly what is happening, I might be able to fix it.
Email
address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks,
Seona.
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of
Hi everyone
Does anyone know where I can find a decent 4 column css template to use?
The glish.com fluid template really doesn't work for the project I am
working on, ideally a 4 column template that is fixed and centred as in
http://www.shockmedia.com.au/ - i.e. one that will resize properly
This seems a silly question but it bounces about enough that whilst
discussing it with a client I thought I'd put it to the list.
During development when referring to HTML (and perhaps CSS) with a
client do you use the term code or the more pedantically correct,
though perhaps less recognised,
Maybe add a slight outline/glow/etc effect to the menu items as they
don't stand out too well, especially when hovering. Also find a way of
reducing image size that doesn't result in noticeable grain.
Later
Seona Bellamy wrote:
Hi guys,
Could I please have a few Mac users (both IE and Safari)
hmm. well, depends greatly on my client. my definitions from thier
standpoint (for a majority of my clients)
code - something I know is there, that makes things work, that I don't
understand and am paying you to deal with
markup - What, you mean like price markup or what?
Food for thought -
On 2/12/04 1:33 PM, Nick Lo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This seems a silly question but it bounces about enough that whilst
discussing it with a client I thought I'd put it to the list.
During development when referring to HTML (and perhaps CSS) with a
client do you use the term code or the
I just want to get some feedback about aesthetics and design on my site if possible please and also the funcionality. Yes it is designed in tables but still I would like some criticism please.
J.LinasDesignGraphic Designerhttp://www.jlinasdesign.com/
Eh, having never done this professionally, I'll throw out my opinion.
As advocates of 'web-standards', we should be using the correct terms.
However, I would guess (without experience, mind you), that
personally I would use both at first, and explain the difference, then
stick to referring to
Thanks. I'll pass those suggestions on to her, since the design is hers (I'm
deliberately making this one not my problem - I have enough problems getting
this site up and running...).
Anyone have any more suggestions about what to do about the glitching
positioning in Mac browsers? I'm at a
Well having moved into this from print markup is really more document
related. A word document is marked up when you specify margins,
headers, bold, etc., it is not coded (excluding the really pedantic
fact that these days there is application code doing the work).
Nick
I tend to use 'code',
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 21:47:21 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just want to get some feedback about aesthetics and design on my site if
possible please and also the funcionality. Yes it is designed in tables but
still I would like some criticism please.
J.LinasDesign
code - something I know is there, that makes things work, that I don't
understand and am paying you to deal with
markup - What, you mean like price markup or what?
Gotta agree with Jonathan, markup in the agency business is what the client
is going to get charged above and beyond. They may
Bryan -
not say this is wrong in any way, in fact, I do try and boost my
clients understanding each and every time - but, I do tend to find a
great deal of I don't really care as long as it works along the way.
I suppose it rates right up there with asking clients to bring the
computer tower
Seona Bellamy wrote:
Hmm... Any suggestions about how I could better do it so that it
stays put? I would have thought that absolute positioning with the
coordinates given in px would have been fairly static. :( I'm not
sure what else to try.
You are relative-positioning those links inside an
To be honest dude that was not rude at all but that was probably the best suggestion that I have received thus far thank you.
J.LinasDesignGraphic Designerhttp://www.jlinasdesign.com/
I suppose it rates right up there with asking clients to bring the
computer tower in... yes, the hard drive
Heh, good point. I do over-the-phone ISP tech support, and I've said
that a number of times. I stand corrected :)
-Bryan Loeper
Hey List,
I am trying to develop a website at the moment and I want to have a
great stylesheet for printing as well as a great layout sheet...
http://inspiro.neester.com
A problem I had was with LI images - I had 2 main issues here:
1)
Printing IGNORES all background attributes...
This is
Wll I think that if there is no TITLE set, why would it hurt to make the
ALT a tooltip?
I often see an image and think - what is that supposed to be?
And If I am lucky they have a title, but more often they have an ALT...
So I need to use the webdev toolbar to get the ALT text to see what its
On 2 Dec 2004, at 1:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just want to get some feedback about aesthetics and design on my
site if possible please and also the funcionality. Yes it is designed
in tables but still I would like some criticism please.
J.LinasDesign
Graphic Designer
Jason,
It looks O.K. The navigation presents no major drama. No, I am not sure why you've designed the site, other than self promotion, but is that an issue. I can't and won't comment on the coding - on the basis that the av erage punter doesn't care, so lojng as they don't get lost.
Peter
Hi list
I need to do some brief training at short notice on the WCAG priority 1
checkpoints and was just wondering if anyone had seen it in simple english.
ie. for people who really don't have any coding experience?
thanks in advance
Lisa
Regards
Lisa Herrod
Usability Analyst
02 9467 5047
Chris Stratford wrote:
Wll I think that if there is no TITLE set, why would it hurt to make
the ALT a tooltip?
Well if they deviated from standards by doing this and users came to
expect it because sites displayed additional information in the tooltips
then a competiting browser would need to
To me the answer is simply that HTML is code, as is PHP, as is Perl etc.
CSS is also code.
Markup is a sub-set of code: code intended to be rendered by a
user agent, etc.
...and we can distinguish between that and the extra costs the agency
adds by referring to the latter as mark-up.
jh
This is however the WSG mail list so you should comment on the coding.
Peter Blakey wrote:
Jason,
It looks O.K. The navigation
presents no major drama. No, I am not sure why you've designed the
site, other than self promotion, but is that an issue. I can't and
won't comment on the
In one word -
crap!
basic problems
include:
Use of tables
Fonts don't
resize
Use of images for textural
links
Erroneous map tag in
code
Use of one large image for Bio
details
No way to get back to home
page
Use of serif
fonts
No ALT
Colleagues,
I stand corrected.
Peter Blakey
Project Officer (On-Line Learning)
Australian Catholic University Limited ABN 15 050 192 660
CRICOS: 4G, 00112C, 00873F, 00885B
1100 Nudgee Road
Banyo Queensland 4014
Telephone: (07) 3623 7421
Facsimile : (07) 3623 7397
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm far from the best designer around, but I'll try and give you some
constructive feedback.
1. From a design angle, the page is lovely to look at (see, we can be
nice here!).
2. Using tables for layout is totalyl unnecessary and totally against
what this list is about.
3. Use of spans when you
On 2 Dec 2004, at 4:42 PM, Cook, Graham R wrote:
In one word - crap!
Nah, don't stuff around... tell us what you think!
N
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
**
The discussion list for
So much for harsh criticism.
I must confess Telstra's site is no better, it still uses tables for
layout. However we are addressing this at substantial cost. One of our
biggest problems though is in dealing with design companies who profess
that they are aware of our standards and accessibility
best ren voice
must resist feel a font debate coming on.. serif vs.
sans-serif. ughh!!! the pain!!!
/best ren voice
My 2 cents about people not really being interested in code. I disagree.
Totally. Good code for consumers [buzz-word for users not of the elicit
drug
too simple?:
http://www.dmxzone.com/showDetail.asp?TypeId=28NewsId=6818
there are some other articles ...
greetings
johannes
- Original Message -
From: Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 4:59 AM
Subject: [WSG] Accessibility
Hi Lisa,
Not specifically P1 only checkpoints, Juicy Studio have a write up of
WCAG 1.0 at
http://www.juicystudio.com/tutorial/accessibility/index.asp#guide
Regards,
Ben
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:59:37 +1100, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I need to do some brief training at short notice
Chris Stratford wrote:
1)
Printing IGNORES all background attributes...
This is understandable - but I didn't realise this until just now...
So my LI background elements weren't printing (or showing in Print
Preview which is how I check what it looks like)
A small consolation: you can set your
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