Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Re: [WSG] First AttemptHi Susie, I always have used Dreamweaver in split view. I can also get all 'Teach Yourself' books from the libary tomorrow. Today I am going to study the links people have sent and read .Dreamweaver MX Trainig from the Source'. Thanks Susie! Kate - Original Message - From: Susie Gardner-Brown To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Seconded ... (or 10th, whatever!) You (one) really have to be able to handcode. I use Dreamweaver but I always have it open in both views, never just the design view, and I frequently swap into the code view only and work on it that way. It's the only way to see what's going on, and fix up things that aren't working. It's the only way to make sure you are making an accessible website. I seem to remember I originally learnt from a book called something like 'Teach yourself HTML in 14 days'. It worked! Plus there are heaps of places online where you can learn too. Some offer online tutorials like the ones mentioned here, plus plenty of others. Some places have 6-week courses that cost about $US25. eg http://www.lvsonline.com . I've done a few courses there and found them pretty good. I'm sure there are lots of other similar places. Good luck ... :) - susie On 25/11/08 1:59 AM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Kate wrote: Wow! You hand code For now, and I think, the foreseeable future, this is still the only way available if you want to get it right... ...although its a long road Yes it is! But worth it, and if you start simply, and follow the excellent advice that others here have offered, I think you'll find it's quite easy to find your way, and to find others who will be happy to help when the going gets tough. Good luck! Andrew www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Hello Mustafa, I guess for a first one, well second really. My first was back in 2000 with not even a table just images and text and someone gave me one or two awards lolol This new one should be a big improvement as I have learnt quite a lot from the lists I am on now. Its amazing how just watching questions and answers teaches you some of this stuff. HTML I am not too thick aabout but CSS apart from the very basic I *do need to study. I do need to study how frames work (naming) too. Many thanks Mustafa! Kate - Original Message - From: Mustafa Quilon To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Well, I started with Dreamweaver's design view, since, that was what I was thought. My first site was a table crap :) I didn't know what was going on. I decided to learn the nuts bolts of HTML. My next site was table based but with a valid code. Then, I joined various lists, communities and saw what really was going on. Thought myself CSS. My first CSS site took a fair amount of time and I faced lots of newbie issues. However, with a little bit of research I overcame them. Now, I just hate the thought of table based layouts. However, that is not the topic of discussion :) I still use Dreamweaver, with display styles switched off (View - Style Rendering - Display Styles). For some minor edits I use Textpad on a PC. Its just a matter of preference. Re: The link[1] Ron gave, it is a must-read for someone starting out in web development. Make sure you go through the curriculum. Re: Embedding Flash, I have used the flash satay method, however, swfobject [2] is the way forward. Also, read extensively on Web Accessibility, Usability and Progressive Enhancement. *watches out for that someone with a big stick* [1] Opera WS Curriculum - http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/1-introduction-to-the-web-standards-cur/ [2] swfobject - http://code.google.com/p/swfobject/ - Mustafa *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] First Attempt
Hi Kate You said: do need to study how frames work (naming) too. Nononono! Frames are awful for accessibility and usability (iFrames are arguably better). I can't think of an example of a really good framed site (although other list members may be able to offer some). I used to say the same of Flash, but did eventually find some sites demonstrating really clever and appropriate uses for it. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***image001.png
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Thank you for saying that, Elizabeth, couldn't agree more about both frames and Flash... I strongly recommend customers against fully-flash sites due to the inconsistent (compared to web conventions), usually non-spiderable, and inaccessible navigation, but agree it can be useful for specific web-apps (wrapped in suitable HTML navigation, etc.) and some nice branding-related effects... but generally, Flash is overused when HTML + CSS with a sprinkling of Javascript could do the job better and in accordance with web standards. Regards, Dave Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: Hi Kate You said: “do need to study how frames work (naming) too.” Nononono! Frames are awful for accessibility and usability (iFrames are arguably better). I can’t think of an example of a really good framed site (although other list members may be able to offer some). I used to say the same of Flash, but did eventually find some sites demonstrating really clever and appropriate uses for it. *Elizabeth Spiegel* *Web editing* *0409 986 158* *GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001* *www.spiegelweb.com.au* *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Bruce, I couldn't agree more - the road is littered with web developers who don't know how to write XHTML or CSS. We rescue their customers frequently. I'd say that, in order to learn how the web really works, write HTML and CSS from scratch (yes, in a text editor). To get started, find a site on the web that you like and download its HTML and CSS and, for example, make it XHTML 1.0-strict and CSS 2.1 compliant. I recommend that you steer well clear of systems that offer to simplify the web development process by hiding it from you. Web developers using those learn how to use that particular tool, but not the web. There're way too many of the latter. Of course, there are some who say that hand coding websites is too inefficient... but the way to make hand coding more efficient *isn't* to use Dreamweaver or [insert your favourite WYSIWYG HTML editor here]. The way to make it work is to stop writing static HTML sites. Instead use one of the many freely available open source CMS frameworks and simply hand code the templates for them once (making hand coded changes for other customer sites as required). That's what we do with Drupal. The static web, other than as a teaching tool, is dead. Yep, poked it with a stick. Dead. :) Cheers, Dave Bruce wrote: Andrew November 24, 2008 10:59 AM On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Kate wrote: Wow! You hand code For now, and I think, the foreseeable future, this is still the only way available if you want to get it right... ...although its a long road Yes it is! But worth it, and if you start simply, and follow the excellent advice that others here have offered, I think you'll find it's quite easy to find your way, and to find others who will be happy to help when the going gets tough. Good luck! *** 12 years ago on asking advice in starting down this road, a very wise engineer told me, Always code by hand. Use notepad or similar... While that was a difficult undertaking, it is the best advice I have had. I still use a basic editor on occasion, one such as cute html or similar is actually fine. Everyone has their fav, and that's ok, as long as it doesn't do everything for you and one learns nothing. But I have developed a system and basic web standards template system that works, so I have many examples of what I use all the time for clients set in new templates. Now I mostly work with a CMS such as ExpressionEngine and have developed a Web Standards template system that I modify as needed for all my clients. I firmly believe that reinventing the wheel for every site is not the best practice. And that browser hacks may be sometimes required. A lot of the time not, and we may end up using them to save time. When one gets a solid foundation and understanding that hand coding offers, one is never stuck in understanding the underlining principles and what is wrong when things just don't work as expected. I don't know why it don't work, dreamweaver did it isn't the way to impress clients! lol Best viewed in anything you want is a good label to apply to your sites, and perhaps what Web Standards is all about. Good luck, do it the hard way and you will know the road well. Bruce Prochnau bkdesign solutions *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Dave Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Of course, there are some who say that hand coding websites is too
inefficient... but the way to make hand coding more efficient *isn't* to
use Dreamweaver or [insert your favourite WYSIWYG HTML editor here].
Actually, as far as coding goes I think using the right editor makes a
big difference to the time it takes to push out code. I use
Dreamweaver, but I just use it because the various auto-complete
features mean I only type about 1/4 of the code produced.
Just as an example for a basic image replacement technique I can
simply type (each line-break represents hitting the enter key):
a { b
url(whatever.jpg) 0 0 no-repeat; dis
b
; h
27px; ov
h
; text-i
-px; widt
100px; }
And Dreamweaver will output:
a { background: url(whatever.jpg) 0 0 no-repeat; display: block;
height: 27px; overflow: hidden; text-indent: -px; width: 100px; }
And that's just a CSS example, not to mention the time saved
developing HTML templates, JavaScript, PHP, etc. Choosing the right
text editor for what you do can save a HUGE amount of time.
--
Blake Haswell
http://www.blakehaswell.com/ | http://blakehaswell.wordpress.com/
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Re: [WSG] First Attempt
The way to make it work is to stop writing static HTML sites. Instead use one of the many freely available open source CMS frameworks and simply hand code the templates for them once (making hand coded changes for other customer sites as required). That's what we do with Drupal. I would not recommend this for sites on shared servers unless they really do need a full-featured CMS. Speed is important .. why add bloat if its not needed? A mysql server in a typical ISP shared hosting environment often struggles to handle a large number of statements per second from hundreds of sites .. especially when some of the sites are being hit hard by crawlers. ..most off-the-shelf CMS do way too many lookups to show even a simple page Drupal, Wordpress and Joomla are very bad in this regard (doing around 15-40 mysql lookups for each page!) ... Xoops seems better with its file-based caching but may still be overkill in a lot of cases. A lot of this waste comes from storing stats in mysql, looking up user data, etc ... (and in some cases attempting to use mysql even for caching! bad.. bad.. bad..) If you are not using user logins then why do all those extra lookups? I think part of the problem might be that a lot of CMS developers are not testing on busy shared servers or high-traffic sites. (they are probably only testing on dedicated servers where they have mysql to themselves and the bottlenecks might be elsewhere) I'm not going to tell people to spend extra cash for a dedicated server if all they want is a few simple static pages. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
But the ease of updating a site using a CMS such as Drupal or WordPress is often what people are wanting. To code each page individually, for many people would be a right pain in the ass, as well as looking after file structures and all that. Using a CMS is just bleedingly obvious for most people, especially those who are more interested in the content of the site, than going through the process of coding a site. Plus, most hosts give you advance notice of the need to upgrade your hosting from a shared plan to a VPS or a dedi box once you have stretched the limits of the shared plan. Or at least that is my experience with shared hosts. For a website starting out, I've never had a problem using WP on shared hosting. Andrew 2008/11/26 Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] The way to make it work is to stop writing static HTML sites. Instead use one of the many freely available open source CMS frameworks and simply hand code the templates for them once (making hand coded changes for other customer sites as required). That's what we do with Drupal. I would not recommend this for sites on shared servers unless they really do need a full-featured CMS. Speed is important .. why add bloat if its not needed? A mysql server in a typical ISP shared hosting environment often struggles to handle a large number of statements per second from hundreds of sites .. especially when some of the sites are being hit hard by crawlers. ..most off-the-shelf CMS do way too many lookups to show even a simple page Drupal, Wordpress and Joomla are very bad in this regard (doing around 15-40 mysql lookups for each page!) ... Xoops seems better with its file-based caching but may still be overkill in a lot of cases. A lot of this waste comes from storing stats in mysql, looking up user data, etc ... (and in some cases attempting to use mysql even for caching! bad.. bad.. bad..) If you are not using user logins then why do all those extra lookups? I think part of the problem might be that a lot of CMS developers are not testing on busy shared servers or high-traffic sites. (they are probably only testing on dedicated servers where they have mysql to themselves and the bottlenecks might be elsewhere) I'm not going to tell people to spend extra cash for a dedicated server if all they want is a few simple static pages. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
If we plan on working in the web design world, you'll find that the real world (at least for the moment) is far from standardized. Frames, iframes, flash, nested table madness - it's out there on both old sites _and_ new. Sometimes you have to go in and fix something on one of these sites...you might join a firm that strictly uses dreamweaver and contribute as their cms solution. It's a mad world! Plan on learning how to do each style as at some point you'll have to do it. Hand coding, dreamweaver (and pals) - plan on being familiar with both styles of development. /The yucky, proprietary dreamweaver template setup made me eventually ditch the software altogether. (using Coda right now) /CSS, javascript and jquery (and pals) - expect to have to deal with them all eventually. We'll skip server-side scripting/etc to be nice. If your cms of choice offers page caching, you can eliminate many of those unnecessary database requests etc. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael MD wrote: The way to make it work is to stop writing static HTML sites. Instead use one of the many freely available open source CMS frameworks and simply hand code the templates for them once (making hand coded changes for other customer sites as required). That's what we do with Drupal. I would not recommend this for sites on shared servers unless they really do need a full-featured CMS. Speed is important .. why add bloat if its not needed? A mysql server in a typical ISP shared hosting environment often struggles to handle a large number of statements per second from hundreds of sites .. especially when some of the sites are being hit hard by crawlers. ..most off-the-shelf CMS do way too many lookups to show even a simple page Drupal, Wordpress and Joomla are very bad in this regard (doing around 15-40 mysql lookups for each page!) ... Xoops seems better with its file-based caching but may still be overkill in a lot of cases. A lot of this waste comes from storing stats in mysql, looking up user data, etc ... (and in some cases attempting to use mysql even for caching! bad.. bad.. bad..) If you are not using user logins then why do all those extra lookups? I think part of the problem might be that a lot of CMS developers are not testing on busy shared servers or high-traffic sites. (they are probably only testing on dedicated servers where they have mysql to themselves and the bottlenecks might be elsewhere) I'm not going to tell people to spend extra cash for a dedicated server if all they want is a few simple static pages. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Actually, Michael Michael MD wrote: I would not recommend this for sites on shared servers unless they really do need a full-featured CMS. Speed is important .. why add bloat if its not needed? A mysql server in a typical ISP shared hosting environment often struggles to handle a large number of statements per second from hundreds of sites .. especially when some of the sites are being hit hard by crawlers. ..most off-the-shelf CMS do way too many lookups to show even a simple page Drupal, Wordpress and Joomla are very bad in this regard (doing around 15-40 mysql lookups for each page!) ... Xoops seems better with its file-based caching but may still be overkill in a lot of cases. Hmmm - this has not been my experience with Drupal... With caching turned on, the database queries are close to 0 for any given page, and frankly, as a hosting provider, I can tell you with some certainty that a) 15-40 queries per page is tiny, and will be handled in 0.0001 seconds in most cases, and b) we have servers with 100 active Drupal sites, many doing 10s of GB of traffic per month, and their performance is sub-second for nearly all pages, and certainly for all pages viewed by anonymous users (i.e. the functional equivalent to static pages) thanks to smart caching... A lot of this waste comes from storing stats in mysql, looking up user data, etc ... (and in some cases attempting to use mysql even for caching! bad.. bad.. bad..) I'm not sure I agree with you at all on this one. If you are not using user logins then why do all those extra lookups? So that the customer can change her own content... she doesn't need to allow logins for anyone other than administrators. A decent CMS will cache pages to the extent that you'd be hard pressed to get substantially faster performance from static pages. I think part of the problem might be that a lot of CMS developers are not testing on busy shared servers or high-traffic sites. (they are probably only testing on dedicated servers where they have mysql to themselves and the bottlenecks might be elsewhere) Again, my experiences create a far different impression. I'm not going to tell people to spend extra cash for a dedicated server if all they want is a few simple static pages. If all you want (and all you're *ever* going to want) is a few static pages, that's fine, but it's also then not a problem to hand code the XHTML and CSS. If your site is going to grow, then you might as well put it into a CMS from the start. The performance overhead for a CMS like Drupal is tiny. By all means use Dreamweaver as a syntax aid (as suggested by Blake) if you can't remember these things or are a really slow typist (although I can't recommend enough taking the time to learn how to touch type - you'll never regret it)... :) Dave -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Hi What's the url? -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com On 24/11/2008, at 9:55 PM, kate wrote: Hello, My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Hello Peter, I followed with another messge for the link but here it is: http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html Sorry.! Kate - Original Message - From: Peter Mount [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Hi What's the url? -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com On 24/11/2008, at 9:55 PM, kate wrote: Hello, My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] First Attempt
Hi Kate, For a first webpage you're doing pretty well - you have some images there and have changed the background colour and text colour on the page. However, using the Dreamweaver design view approach will not give you the best end results, or teach you the best practices. Peter's link gives you some really good tips on moving beyond the elementary use of Dreamweaver's design view, and point 5 - validate your page to find basic errors is a definite step you don't want to miss. Other than that, you may want to look at following online tutorials. For example, your menus can be enhanced by following some easy steps (for example, http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/horizontal_introduction.htm) which you can then edit as you like. You will be able to find many tutorials for page layout, table styling, menus etc. by searching Google and people here will also be able to give you pointers on good tutorials. Then moving forward when you feel more confident with editing the html css from these tutorials, you will be able to build your own menus and eventually the entire website from scratch based on your custom design :) All the best, Rachel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate Sent: 24 November 2008 11:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Hello Peter, I followed with another messge for the link but here it is: http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html Sorry.! Kate - Original Message - From: Peter Mount [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Hi What's the url? -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com On 24/11/2008, at 9:55 PM, kate wrote: Hello, My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
As someone who hasn't opened dreamweaver in years and codes css and xhtml by hand, but learned to build websites in Dreamweaver, I would say Rachel's approach might be difficult for some. This being your first website Kate, I would say to use some of the better tools Dreamweaver offers and learn from them. For instance in Dreamweaver CS3 you can create a new html page (File New), choose New HTML page type and then you can select from some css based Layouts. I think that's a great place to start. From there you should read up on some articles, pay attention to what happens as you experiment and modify things, etc. Design-based approach in Dreamweaver can be detrimental if you never learn what's behind it, but I think it's a great way to get started as long as you learn from what it offers. I'll probably get some backlash on this. I'm not saying Dreamweaver even does a really good job of writing markup or css when you are working in design-view, but it gives a good place to start. Also, I'd recommend using Split view so you can start to see the code changes and get comfortable with it as you interact with the design. On Nov 24, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Rachel Radford wrote: Hi Kate, For a first webpage you're doing pretty well - you have some images there and have changed the background colour and text colour on the page. However, using the Dreamweaver design view approach will not give you the best end results, or teach you the best practices. Peter's link gives you some really good tips on moving beyond the elementary use of Dreamweaver's design view, and point 5 - validate your page to find basic errors is a definite step you don't want to miss. Other than that, you may want to look at following online tutorials. For example, your menus can be enhanced by following some easy steps (for example, http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/horizontal_introduction.htm) which you can then edit as you like. You will be able to find many tutorials for page layout, table styling, menus etc. by searching Google and people here will also be able to give you pointers on good tutorials. Then moving forward when you feel more confident with editing the html css from these tutorials, you will be able to build your own menus and eventually the entire website from scratch based on your custom design :) All the best, Rachel -Original Message- I followed with another messge for the link but here it is: http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html Sorry.! Kate My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Hi Rachel, Many thanks for your positive imput which gives me some incentive to carry this through. I have listened, looked and watch for answers to questions on one or two lists and feel maybe I am ready to wet toes (not feet yet) and venture into Web design to see how my first one goes. I need the tuts and links so thanks for those. I need to catch up with Peters mail which must still be at BT. Thanks Rachel I feel really positive now. Kate - Original Message - From: Rachel Radford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:22 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] First Attempt Hi Kate, For a first webpage you're doing pretty well - you have some images there and have changed the background colour and text colour on the page. However, using the Dreamweaver design view approach will not give you the best end results, or teach you the best practices. Peter's link gives you some really good tips on moving beyond the elementary use of Dreamweaver's design view, and point 5 - validate your page to find basic errors is a definite step you don't want to miss. Other than that, you may want to look at following online tutorials. For example, your menus can be enhanced by following some easy steps (for example, http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/horizontal_introduction.htm) which you can then edit as you like. You will be able to find many tutorials for page layout, table styling, menus etc. by searching Google and people here will also be able to give you pointers on good tutorials. Then moving forward when you feel more confident with editing the html css from these tutorials, you will be able to build your own menus and eventually the entire website from scratch based on your custom design :) All the best, Rachel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate Sent: 24 November 2008 11:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Hello Peter, I followed with another messge for the link but here it is: http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html Sorry.! Kate - Original Message - From: Peter Mount [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Hi What's the url? -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com On 24/11/2008, at 9:55 PM, kate wrote: Hello, My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Kate wrote: Wow! You hand code For now, and I think, the foreseeable future, this is still the only way available if you want to get it right... ...although its a long road Yes it is! But worth it, and if you start simply, and follow the excellent advice that others here have offered, I think you'll find it's quite easy to find your way, and to find others who will be happy to help when the going gets tough. Good luck! Andrew www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
As someone who has read the post, in Dreamweaver 8, to follow along with Todd's statement, choose (File -- New) and under the General tab choose Starter Pages. You may choose from the list DW8 has. The rest I agree with. Try learning some of the code from the pre-existing sites, modify one section of code in Code/Design view, hit the refresh button in the properties menu at the bottom, and see/study the results. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Todd Budnikas [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: As someone who hasn't opened dreamweaver in years and codes css and xhtml by hand, but learned to build websites in Dreamweaver, I would say Rachel's approach might be difficult for some. This being your first website Kate, I would say to use some of the better tools Dreamweaver offers and learn from them. For instance in Dreamweaver CS3 you can create a new html page (File New), choose New HTML page type and then you can select from some css based Layouts. I think that's a great place to start. From there you should read up on some articles, pay attention to what happens as you experiment and modify things, etc. Design-based approach in Dreamweaver can be detrimental if you never learn what's behind it, but I think it's a great way to get started as long as you learn from what it offers. I'll probably get some backlash on this. I'm not saying Dreamweaver even does a really good job of writing markup or css when you are working in design-view, but it gives a good place to start. Also, I'd recommend using Split view so you can start to see the code changes and get comfortable with it as you interact with the design. On Nov 24, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Rachel Radford wrote: Hi Kate, For a first webpage you're doing pretty well - you have some images there and have changed the background colour and text colour on the page. However, using the Dreamweaver design view approach will not give you the best end results, or teach you the best practices. Peter's link gives you some really good tips on moving beyond the elementary use of Dreamweaver's design view, and point 5 - validate your page to find basic errors is a definite step you don't want to miss. Other than that, you may want to look at following online tutorials. For example, your menus can be enhanced by following some easy steps (for example, http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/horizontal_introduction.htm) which you can then edit as you like. You will be able to find many tutorials for page layout, table styling, menus etc. by searching Google and people here will also be able to give you pointers on good tutorials. Then moving forward when you feel more confident with editing the html css from these tutorials, you will be able to build your own menus and eventually the entire website from scratch based on your custom design :) All the best, Rachel -Original Message- I followed with another messge for the link but here it is: http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html Sorry.! Kate My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Hi Brett, Yes, I have sen the starter pages , thanks. I also like the 3 column left nav because remember that awesome menu that Macromedia did? Well, you get that with that 3 column. I know you can buy it from Adobe too. Now the starter pages and the page designs CSS I was never sure if we could actually use them or if they were there as examples only. I am a member at Ozzu Webmaster forums and they just started tuts for Web design. Anyway Brett, many thanks for your imput and help! Kate - Original Message - From: Brett Patterson To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt As someone who has read the post, in Dreamweaver 8, to follow along with Todd's statement, choose (File -- New) and under the General tab choose Starter Pages. You may choose from the list DW8 has. The rest I agree with. Try learning some of the code from the pre-existing sites, modify one section of code in Code/Design view, hit the refresh button in the properties menu at the bottom, and see/study the results. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Todd Budnikas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As someone who hasn't opened dreamweaver in years and codes css and xhtml by hand, but learned to build websites in Dreamweaver, I would say Rachel's approach might be difficult for some. This being your first website Kate, I would say to use some of the better tools Dreamweaver offers and learn from them. For instance in Dreamweaver CS3 you can create a new html page (File New), choose New HTML page type and then you can select from some css based Layouts. I think that's a great place to start. From there you should read up on some articles, pay attention to what happens as you experiment and modify things, etc. Design-based approach in Dreamweaver can be detrimental if you never learn what's behind it, but I think it's a great way to get started as long as you learn from what it offers. I'll probably get some backlash on this. I'm not saying Dreamweaver even does a really good job of writing markup or css when you are working in design-view, but it gives a good place to start. Also, I'd recommend using Split view so you can start to see the code changes and get comfortable with it as you interact with the design. On Nov 24, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Rachel Radford wrote: Hi Kate, For a first webpage you're doing pretty well - you have some images there and have changed the background colour and text colour on the page. However, using the Dreamweaver design view approach will not give you the best end results, or teach you the best practices. Peter's link gives you some really good tips on moving beyond the elementary use of Dreamweaver's design view, and point 5 - validate your page to find basic errors is a definite step you don't want to miss. Other than that, you may want to look at following online tutorials. For example, your menus can be enhanced by following some easy steps (for example, http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/horizontal_introduction.htm) which you can then edit as you like. You will be able to find many tutorials for page layout, table styling, menus etc. by searching Google and people here will also be able to give you pointers on good tutorials. Then moving forward when you feel more confident with editing the html css from these tutorials, you will be able to build your own menus and eventually the entire website from scratch based on your custom design :) All the best, Rachel -Original Message- I followed with another messge for the link but here it is: http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html Sorry.! Kate My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
quote Todd As someone who hasn't opened dreamweaver in years and codes css and xhtml by hand end quote Wow! You hand code. Well Todd I salute you. Thanks for the feedback and advice and although its a long road I am not afraid to try what I have set out to achieve given time. There is a lot of DW help available which is my preferred editor. At each stage of the design I will put it through the validator and know enough to test in as many browsers as possible as I go. This morning I sent the first link but the background color was wrong so I had to change it for IE. It was fine in FF . I bought two DW books and will read and digest. One book in particular I like as it has the C-D - DW2004 - Training from the Source. That should help some way. I can also borrow the latest books from my libary. I am slowly learning CSS too Thanks again Todd! Kate --- On Mon, 24/11/08, Todd Budnikas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Todd Budnikas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Monday, 24 November, 2008, 3:19 PM As someone who hasn't opened dreamweaver in years and codes css and xhtml by hand, but learned to build websites in Dreamweaver, I would say Rachel's approach might be difficult for some. This being your first website Kate, I would say to use some of the better tools Dreamweaver offers and learn from them. For instance in Dreamweaver CS3 you can create a new html page (File New), choose New HTML page type and then you can select from some css based Layouts. I think that's a great place to start. From there you should read up on some articles, pay attention to what happens as you experiment and modify things, etc. Design-based approach in Dreamweaver can be detrimental if you never learn what's behind it, but I think it's a great way to get started as long as you learn from what it offers. I'll probably get some backlash on this. I'm not saying Dreamweaver even does a really good job of writing markup or css when you are working in design-view, but it gives a good place to start. Also, I'd recommend using Split view so you can start to see the code changes and get comfortable with it as you interact with the design. On Nov 24, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Rachel Radford wrote: Hi Kate, For a first webpage you're doing pretty well - you have some images there and have changed the background colour and text colour on the page. However, using the Dreamweaver design view approach will not give you the best end results, or teach you the best practices. Peter's link gives you some really good tips on moving beyond the elementary use of Dreamweaver's design view, and point 5 - validate your page to find basic errors is a definite step you don't want to miss. Other than that, you may want to look at following online tutorials. For example, your menus can be enhanced by following some easy steps (for example, http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/horizontal_introduction.htm) which you can then edit as you like. You will be able to find many tutorials for page layout, table styling, menus etc. by searching Google and people here will also be able to give you pointers on good tutorials. Then moving forward when you feel more confident with editing the html css from these tutorials, you will be able to build your own menus and eventually the entire website from scratch based on your custom design :) All the best, Rachel -Original Message- I followed with another messge for the link but here it is: http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html Sorry.! Kate My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and wondered what you think so far as to: Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct color. This color works in FF ok - #172228 I am working in DW8 on WinXP I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along. Thanks Kate. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Andrew November 24, 2008 10:59 AM On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Kate wrote: Wow! You hand code For now, and I think, the foreseeable future, this is still the only way available if you want to get it right... ...although its a long road Yes it is! But worth it, and if you start simply, and follow the excellent advice that others here have offered, I think you'll find it's quite easy to find your way, and to find others who will be happy to help when the going gets tough. Good luck! *** 12 years ago on asking advice in starting down this road, a very wise engineer told me, Always code by hand. Use notepad or similar... While that was a difficult undertaking, it is the best advice I have had. I still use a basic editor on occasion, one such as cute html or similar is actually fine. Everyone has their fav, and that's ok, as long as it doesn't do everything for you and one learns nothing. But I have developed a system and basic web standards template system that works, so I have many examples of what I use all the time for clients set in new templates. Now I mostly work with a CMS such as ExpressionEngine and have developed a Web Standards template system that I modify as needed for all my clients. I firmly believe that reinventing the wheel for every site is not the best practice. And that browser hacks may be sometimes required. A lot of the time not, and we may end up using them to save time. When one gets a solid foundation and understanding that hand coding offers, one is never stuck in understanding the underlining principles and what is wrong when things just don't work as expected. I don't know why it don't work, dreamweaver did it isn't the way to impress clients! lol Best viewed in anything you want is a good label to apply to your sites, and perhaps what Web Standards is all about. Good luck, do it the hard way and you will know the road well. Bruce Prochnau bkdesign solutions *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Thanks Bruce, Best viewed lolol was funny to read because about three years ago someone created an awesome site for me with Wordpress. He worked the China Red theme and wrote nin the sidebar best viewed in IE5 or higher. I never knew then about testing in different browsers and I really don't think he did either. One day someone sent a mail to me to say did I know its the only browser your site works in *is IE5...honest to God Bruce when I put it in Validator (someone said to) there was over 400 errors. That lol was my first hard lesson learnt. I would not know how to hand code in Notepad but I am impressed by people that can..who knows I may try it. Thanks Bruce! Kate - Original Message - From: Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Andrew November 24, 2008 10:59 AM On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Kate wrote: Wow! You hand code For now, and I think, the foreseeable future, this is still the only way available if you want to get it right... ...although its a long road Yes it is! But worth it, and if you start simply, and follow the excellent advice that others here have offered, I think you'll find it's quite easy to find your way, and to find others who will be happy to help when the going gets tough. Good luck! *** 12 years ago on asking advice in starting down this road, a very wise engineer told me, Always code by hand. Use notepad or similar... While that was a difficult undertaking, it is the best advice I have had. I still use a basic editor on occasion, one such as cute html or similar is actually fine. Everyone has their fav, and that's ok, as long as it doesn't do everything for you and one learns nothing. But I have developed a system and basic web standards template system that works, so I have many examples of what I use all the time for clients set in new templates. Now I mostly work with a CMS such as ExpressionEngine and have developed a Web Standards template system that I modify as needed for all my clients. I firmly believe that reinventing the wheel for every site is not the best practice. And that browser hacks may be sometimes required. A lot of the time not, and we may end up using them to save time. When one gets a solid foundation and understanding that hand coding offers, one is never stuck in understanding the underlining principles and what is wrong when things just don't work as expected. I don't know why it don't work, dreamweaver did it isn't the way to impress clients! lol Best viewed in anything you want is a good label to apply to your sites, and perhaps what Web Standards is all about. Good luck, do it the hard way and you will know the road well. Bruce Prochnau bkdesign solutions *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
kate wrote: Thanks Bruce, Best viewed lolol was funny to read because about three years ago someone created an awesome site for me with Wordpress. He worked the China Red theme and wrote nin the sidebar best viewed in IE5 or higher. I never knew then about testing in different browsers and I really don't think he did either. One day someone sent a mail to me to say did I know its the only browser your site works in *is IE5...honest to God Bruce when I put it in Validator (someone said to) there was over 400 errors. That lol was my first hard lesson learnt. I would not know how to hand code in Notepad but I am impressed by people that can..who knows I may try it. Thanks Bruce! Kate a help I came across 3 years ago was Layout Gala, a series of layouts by Alessandro Fulciniti. http://blog.html.it/layoutgala/ I found looking at these in an editor, and making changes such as adding inner div's taught me a lot. They have been rock solid across all browsers and op systems. I'm not saying everyone should make all sites with these, but saying these and others done by members here are a definite shortcut to learning, preferred from stating by scrating your head and looking at a blank screen in an editor lol. Of course there are many other methods that can and should be learned, and sites such as maxdesign and positioniseverything, (and many others in this group!), have a ton of important and vital information. To be the best, learn from the best... Bruce *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Kate wrote: Wow! You hand code. You realize many people started developing web sites before anything like DreamWeaver even existed -- when the *only* option was opening up a file in vi or emacs or whatever text editor and hand coding? It's not rocket science, honest. And the sooner you throw aside the crutch of WYSIWYG design, the better developer you'll be. Certainly, in a /web standards/ context, you'll be looking more at the semantics of your content and markup, rather than drawing pretty pictures :-) FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
kate wrote: Wow Bruce, I transferred my code from Dreamweaver to Notepad gave it the .index.html and bingo even images..wow my giddy aunt I am amazed. lolol Positive from this is no upgrades for Dreamweaver. Kate wow my giddy aunt I am amazed. This statement is destined to go down in Web Standards history... Dreamweaver is, I am sure, an awesome tool. Tools can be used and serve a function for sure. Many prefer using such and that is fine and ok (not that I am in a position to be any kind of authority 'cause I'm not), principle would be a personal understanding of how things work and why, and not allow a tool to be our learning. Perhaps a good way to put it, Tools are best used when we don't need them Bruce *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
kate, thought i'd throw in my two cents. firstly i was in your position a couple years ago, using dreamweaver. at a certain point i realized i didn't know what i was doing or what was going wrong when things didn't view properly. i hadn't heard anything about box models, didn't know what padding or margins were, and basically didn't understand anything about html. so i set dreamweaver aside and took the plunge. fortunately on the css-d list, someone was kind enough to take me under their wing and hold my hand... much like you are receiving here. it was a steep climb, yet i still have a few hairs left on my head. Opera has a good introduction to web design that might provide an overview. good luck. http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/1-introduction-to-the-web- standards-cur/ --ron On Nov 24, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Bruce wrote: kate wrote: Thanks Bruce, Best viewed lolol was funny to read because about three years ago someone created an awesome site for me with Wordpress. He worked the China Red theme and wrote nin the sidebar best viewed in IE5 or higher. I never knew then about testing in different browsers and I really don't think he did either. One day someone sent a mail to me to say did I know its the only browser your site works in *is IE5...honest to God Bruce when I put it in Validator (someone said to) there was over 400 errors. That lol was my first hard lesson learnt. I would not know how to hand code in Notepad but I am impressed by people that can..who knows I may try it. Thanks Bruce! Kate a help I came across 3 years ago was Layout Gala, a series of layouts by Alessandro Fulciniti. http://blog.html.it/layoutgala/ I found looking at these in an editor, and making changes such as adding inner div's taught me a lot. They have been rock solid across all browsers and op systems. I'm not saying everyone should make all sites with these, but saying these and others done by members here are a definite shortcut to learning, preferred from stating by scrating your head and looking at a blank screen in an editor lol. Of course there are many other methods that can and should be learned, and sites such as maxdesign and positioniseverything, (and many others in this group!), have a ton of important and vital information. To be the best, learn from the best... Bruce *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Hya Ron, Thanks for the link to Opera, I did dl the software two weeks ago and have an Opera blog but don't have time to do much with it. The link will be great though. At this moment I am trying to understand by looking at the code why my swf works just fine in Swish and DW but is a white background only in notepad/IE. I am ok with that as its just testing and looking what appears in notepad and (whispers) what appears different in DW.. Thanks Ron! Kate - Original Message - From: Ron Zisman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt kate, thought i'd throw in my two cents. firstly i was in your position a couple years ago, using dreamweaver. at a certain point i realized i didn't know what i was doing or what was going wrong when things didn't view properly. i hadn't heard anything about box models, didn't know what padding or margins were, and basically didn't understand anything about html. so i set dreamweaver aside and took the plunge. fortunately on the css-d list, someone was kind enough to take me under their wing and hold my hand... much like you are receiving here. it was a steep climb, yet i still have a few hairs left on my head. Opera has a good introduction to web design that might provide an overview. good luck. http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/1-introduction-to-the-web- standards-cur/ --ron On Nov 24, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Bruce wrote: kate wrote: Thanks Bruce, Best viewed lolol was funny to read because about three years ago someone created an awesome site for me with Wordpress. He worked the China Red theme and wrote nin the sidebar best viewed in IE5 or higher. I never knew then about testing in different browsers and I really don't think he did either. One day someone sent a mail to me to say did I know its the only browser your site works in *is IE5...honest to God Bruce when I put it in Validator (someone said to) there was over 400 errors. That lol was my first hard lesson learnt. I would not know how to hand code in Notepad but I am impressed by people that can..who knows I may try it. Thanks Bruce! Kate a help I came across 3 years ago was Layout Gala, a series of layouts by Alessandro Fulciniti. http://blog.html.it/layoutgala/ I found looking at these in an editor, and making changes such as adding inner div's taught me a lot. They have been rock solid across all browsers and op systems. I'm not saying everyone should make all sites with these, but saying these and others done by members here are a definite shortcut to learning, preferred from stating by scrating your head and looking at a blank screen in an editor lol. Of course there are many other methods that can and should be learned, and sites such as maxdesign and positioniseverything, (and many others in this group!), have a ton of important and vital information. To be the best, learn from the best... Bruce *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Thanks Hassan, I am trying to create with notepad the images are fine as is the text but testing a swf which refuses to show anything but a white space. I believe there is a problem with swf in IE and FF. All good things come to those that wait so they tell me. Everyone has been very kind since I asked and I am very grateful for their replies ( yours too) and links to tuts are going to be a great help to me in the months to come.. Kate - Original Message - From: Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt Kate wrote: Wow! You hand code. You realize many people started developing web sites before anything like DreamWeaver even existed -- when the *only* option was opening up a file in vi or emacs or whatever text editor and hand coding? It's not rocket science, honest. And the sooner you throw aside the crutch of WYSIWYG design, the better developer you'll be. Certainly, in a /web standards/ context, you'll be looking more at the semantics of your content and markup, rather than drawing pretty pictures :-) FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
On Nov 24, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Bruce wrote: Hopefully this can get back on web standards topic... ...might be a good moment to remember a previous thread re: standards and swf. I'm sorry not to remember who provided this link, but I've found it invaluable: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Thanks Bruce Agree BOT, I can now from the help get learning. Thankyou! Kate - Original Message - From: Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] First Attempt kate wrote: Thanks Hassan, I am trying to create with notepad the images are fine as is the text but testing a swf which refuses to show anything but a white space. I believe there is a problem with swf in IE and FF. All good things come to those that wait so they tell me. Everyone has been very kind since I asked and I am very grateful for their replies ( yours too) and links to tuts are going to be a great help to me in the months to come.. Kate for flash, paths to the files is a normal error that causes that. Depending if it's on your desktop or on the web, there is security on access to local vs remote files to consider as well. If it is a blank space likely the swf file cannot be found If online a link usually solves it ;) Hopefully this can get back on web standards topic...or someone may come along with a big stick...lol bruce bkdesign *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Attempt
Well, I started with Dreamweaver's design view, since, that was what I was thought. My first site was a table crap :) I didn't know what was going on. I decided to learn the nuts bolts of HTML. My next site was table based but with a valid code. Then, I joined various lists, communities and saw what really was going on. Thought myself CSS. My first CSS site took a fair amount of time and I faced lots of newbie issues. However, with a little bit of research I overcame them. Now, I just hate the thought of table based layouts. However, that is not the topic of discussion :) I still use Dreamweaver, with display styles switched off (View - Style Rendering - Display Styles). For some minor edits I use Textpad on a PC. Its just a matter of preference. Re: The link[1] Ron gave, it is a must-read for someone starting out in web development. Make sure you go through the curriculum. Re: Embedding Flash, I have used the flash satay method, however, swfobject [2] is the way forward. Also, read extensively on Web Accessibility, Usability and Progressive Enhancement. *watches out for that someone with a big stick* [1] Opera WS Curriculum - http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/1-introduction-to-the-web-standards-cur/ [2] swfobject - http://code.google.com/p/swfobject/ - Mustafa *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
