RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[BillSmart]

I definitely agree with ED’s point below:  “Who they *really* are and all
their foibles are irrelevant if you are learning and growing by being with
them.”

A traditional zen saying that says the same thing is:  ‘Even a great zen
master can’t enlighten an uncommitted student, but an earnest student can be
enlightened by a false zen master.’

Or maybe in Genpo's case:  Even a great faucet can't fill up a glass that is
not held lower than it is.

…Bill!


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew
Cohen

  

Kristy,
Each comment I make concerning the teacher-student relationship does *not*
necessarily apply to all. Here are some comments:
You must be at least 21 years of age, and be willing  to be accountable to
yourself for *all* your choices and all that happens to you, before engaging
in spiritual training with a teacher.
You must make yourelf aware of the teacher's traditions, teaching style and
recommended practices, and check the Internet about his reputation.
You must feel that you have something to learn from your teacher.
You must explore and discuss with others any uneasy feelings you have about
your teacher.
You must feel inspired by your teacher.
You must hold on tight to your wallet/purse and your pants/panties, if that
feels right for you.
Who they *really* are and all their foibles are irrelevant if you are
learning and growing by being with them.
Take whatever of his/her teachings that you like and can assimilate,
and ignore the rest.
Be particularly careful if you have a 'powerful' or 'famous' teacher, and if
you know yourself to be or you have been told that you are a
psychologically/emotionally vulnerable person.
If perplexed, one can look for a local zendo, preferebly with an East Asian
roshi, whom you feel good about, and join the sangha, practice zazen, listen
to teishos and read what the teacher recommends. One must not engage in
sexual relations with the teacher. 
At all times study and practice Theravadin buddhist texts.
--ED
PS1: I have not studied Genpo Roshi's current teaching and practices
sufficiently. My educated or uneducated guess is that it is 20% zen and 80%
psychological/human-potential-movement-like  (20% 'tough love',  20%
est-like,  40% 'voice dialog'.)
PS2: The teachers mentioned at the end of your message I think are well
grounded in Hinayana Buddhism's introspection, ethics and morality. Without
an *aboslute* minimum of 5 to 10 years of Theravadin buddhist practice,
Mahayana-and-beyond buddhist teachings/practice (and zen too) are being
built on sandy ground.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> Ed,
>  
> So do you have a comment about this?
>  
> To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Gempo say  this to  a
student, I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to confront
the student with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".
>  Gempo was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and
entire behavior indicated that he, himself,  had simply lost control.  
As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand this guy.  He can talk
non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling on and on with what
I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as brilliant,  I
cannot understand most of what he says.
>  
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack Kornfield,
TNH, Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But perhaps it is also
telling to note that this is a teaching style I avoided as not right for 
me.
>  
> Kristy
 
> >  The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs  (8:44)
 



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Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[siska_cen]

Hi Ed, 

I like this I want to share it in another forum where I belong. Thought I 
should ask for your permission in case this gets published :-)

siska 
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 05:45:15 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

ED,
 
I would like to acclaim your words of wisdom(not joking). When are you going to 
publish your Guide to Teacher-student Relationships? You can ask Dalai Lama to 
edit it when he is in a humorous mood. If he lost his sense of humor for the 
time being, don't let him touch your book.
 
BTW, you are influenced by Tibetan theory of grades starting from 
hinayan-mahayana-tantrayana. I think that leads to very likely sexuality that 
cannot be helped.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 18/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 18 November, 2010, 10:50 PM


  





Kristy,
Each comment I make concerning the teacher-student relationship does *not* 
necessarily apply to all. Here are some comments:
You must be at least 21 years of age, and be willing  to be accountable to 
yourself for *all* your choices and all that happens to you, before engaging in 
spiritual training with a teacher.
You must make yourelf aware of the teacher's traditions, teaching style and 
recommended practices, and check the Internet about his reputation.
You must feel that you have something to learn from your teacher.
You must explore and discuss with others any uneasy feelings you have about 
your teacher.
You must feel inspired by your teacher.
You must hold on tight to your wallet/purse and your pants/panties, if that 
feels right for you.
Who they *really* are and all their foibles are irrelevant if you are learning 
and growing by being with them.
Take whatever of his/her teachings that you like and can assimilate, and ignore 
the rest.
Be particularly careful if you have a 'powerful' or 'famous' teacher, and if 
you know yourself to be or you have been told that you are a 
psychologically/emotionally vulnerable person.
If perplexed, one can look for a local zendo, preferebly with an East Asian 
roshi, whom you feel good about, and join the sangha, practice zazen, listen to 
teishos and read what the teacher recommends. One must not engage in sexual 
relations with the teacher. 
At all times study and practice Theravadin buddhist texts.
--ED
PS1: I have not studied Genpo Roshi's current teaching and practices 
sufficiently. My educated or uneducated guess is that it is 20% zen and 80% 
psychological/human-potential-movement-like  (20% 'tough love',  20% est-like,  
40% 'voice dialog'.)
PS2: The teachers mentioned at the end of your message I think are well 
grounded in Hinayana Buddhism's introspection, ethics and morality. Without an 
*aboslute* minimum of 5 to 10 years of Theravadin buddhist practice, 
Mahayana-and-beyond buddhist teachings/practice (and zen too) are being built 
on sandy ground.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> Ed,
>  
> So do you have a comment about this?
>  
> To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Gempo say  this to  a student, 
> I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to confront the student 
> with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".
>  Gempo was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and entire 
>behavior indicated that he, himself,  had simply lost control.  
As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand this guy.  He can talk 
non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling on and on with what I 
perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as brilliant,  I cannot 
understand most of what he says.
>  
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack Kornfield, TNH, 
> Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But perhaps it is also telling 
> to note that this is a teaching style I avoided as not right for  me.
>  
> Kristy
 
> >  The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs  (8:44)

 

Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[ED]

Anthony,

The Buddha did 'discriminate' - he recommended different teaching
approache for the very intelligent, the moderately intelligent and the
not-so-intelligent - all with the motivation of speeding up their
enlightenment through expedient means.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> I would like to acclaim your words of wisdom(not joking). When are you
going to publish your Guide to Teacher-student Relationships? You can
ask Dalai Lama to edit it when he is in a humorous mood. If he lost his
sense of humor for the time being, don't let him touch your book.
>
> BTW, you are influenced by Tibetan theory of grades starting from
hinayan-mahayana-tantrayana. I think that leads to very likely sexuality
that cannot be helped.
>  Anthony

Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
I would like to acclaim your words of wisdom(not joking). When are you going to 
publish your Guide to Teacher-student Relationships? You can ask Dalai Lama to 
edit it when he is in a humorous mood. If he lost his sense of humor for the 
time being, don't let him touch your book.
 
BTW, you are influenced by Tibetan theory of grades starting from 
hinayan-mahayana-tantrayana. I think that leads to very likely sexuality that 
cannot be helped.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 18/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 18 November, 2010, 10:50 PM


  





Kristy,
Each comment I make concerning the teacher-student relationship does *not* 
necessarily apply to all. Here are some comments:
You must be at least 21 years of age, and be willing  to be accountable to 
yourself for *all* your choices and all that happens to you, before engaging in 
spiritual training with a teacher.
You must make yourelf aware of the teacher's traditions, teaching style and 
recommended practices, and check the Internet about his reputation.
You must feel that you have something to learn from your teacher.
You must explore and discuss with others any uneasy feelings you have about 
your teacher.
You must feel inspired by your teacher.
You must hold on tight to your wallet/purse and your pants/panties, if that 
feels right for you.
Who they *really* are and all their foibles are irrelevant if you are learning 
and growing by being with them.
Take whatever of his/her teachings that you like and can assimilate, and ignore 
the rest.
Be particularly careful if you have a 'powerful' or 'famous' teacher, and if 
you know yourself to be or you have been told that you are a 
psychologically/emotionally vulnerable person.
If perplexed, one can look for a local zendo, preferebly with an East Asian 
roshi, whom you feel good about, and join the sangha, practice zazen, listen to 
teishos and read what the teacher recommends. One must not engage in sexual 
relations with the teacher. 
At all times study and practice Theravadin buddhist texts.
--ED
PS1: I have not studied Genpo Roshi's current teaching and practices 
sufficiently. My educated or uneducated guess is that it is 20% zen and 80% 
psychological/human-potential-movement-like  (20% 'tough love',  20% est-like,  
40% 'voice dialog'.)
PS2: The teachers mentioned at the end of your message I think are well 
grounded in Hinayana Buddhism's introspection, ethics and morality. Without an 
*aboslute* minimum of 5 to 10 years of Theravadin buddhist practice, 
Mahayana-and-beyond buddhist teachings/practice (and zen too) are being built 
on sandy ground.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> Ed,
>  
> So do you have a comment about this?
>  
> To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Gempo say  this to  a student, 
> I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to confront the student 
> with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".
>  Gempo was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and entire 
>behavior indicated that he, himself,  had simply lost control.  
As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand this guy.  He can talk 
non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling on and on with what I 
perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as brilliant,  I cannot 
understand most of what he says.
>  
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack Kornfield, TNH, 
> Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But perhaps it is also telling 
> to note that this is a teaching style I avoided as not right for  me.
>  
> Kristy
 
> >  The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs  (8:44)

 

Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[ED]

Nevertheless, for a specific student, some particular teacher(s) and/or
teaching method(s) might awaken the student to the truth (that she
already knows and had only forgotten) more readily than other teachers
and methods might.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain 
wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> That is a very astute observation. I agree.. k



> >  The teacher teaches awareness of what already is and readily
available.
>
> > There is never any dependency of the student on the teacher. From
what I've seen of Genpo's teaching approach, however, it appears to
spring from a dependency of the teacher on the student - a dependency of
Genpo to be recognized as the necessary conduit (faucet) to the Dharma
by his students.
>
> > ...Bill!








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RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[Kristy McClain]

Bill,
 
That is a very astute observation. I agree.. k


--- On Wed, 11/17/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:







The teacher teaches awareness of what already is and readily available.

There is never any dependency of the student on the teacher. From what I've 
seen of Genpo's teaching approach, however, it appears to spring from a 
dependency of the teacher on the student - a dependency of Genpo to be 
recognized as the necessary conduit (faucet) to the Dharma by his students.

...Bill!

> -Original Message-
> From: billsm...@hhs1963.org [mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:23 AM
> To: 'Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi &
> Andrew Cohen
> 
> Ed and Kristy,
> 
> First of all I do want to echo Kristy’s first point which she phrased
> as a question. I too would much rather ED (or anyone who posts) tell
> us your opinion on something. Second best (but still acceptable) is
> for you to first express your opinion and then back it up with a
> reference to someone else. I think the worst case is when you just
> post a URL to someone else’s opinion. You may think this is a way to
> pass information in a neutral manner, but it is second-hand
> information, and information on which there can be no interactive
> discussion with the originator of the opinion.
> 
> Usually I don’t even go to links if there it is not there to support
> something else in the post; but I did go to this one and looked at
> about the first 2 minutes of the video.
> 
> So secondly I must adamantly disagree with Genpo on the dynamics of a
> zen teacher-student relationship. He described it as a necessarily
> hierarchical relationship: the teacher (roshi) higher than the student.
> He used an example a water system were the Dharma was the water, the
> roshi was the faucet and the student was an empty cup. The dynamics of
> the relationship were that the Dharma necessarily flowed through the
> teacher to the student. This is absolutely incorrect.
> 
> The dynamics and relationships are not hierarchical, they are
> horizontal or parallel. Using the water system analogy, BOTH the
> teacher and the student comprise the complete water system. The are
> both the water source, the pipes and the faucet. Presumably the
> teacher has experience in turning on the faucet and accessing the
> water, and the student does not. The teacher can only demonstrate how
> he/she accesses the water and make some suggestions. The student must
> learn how to turn on the faucet for himself.
> 
> The point is that Dharma does not flow THROUGH the teacher to the
> student. If that’s the relationship Genpo believes is necessary and
> that he demands, then he has strayed very far from the teachings of
> Maezumi Roshi.
> 
> I will direct you to a link which will fully support my position on
> this. To access the link you only need to sit quietly and count your
> breathes.
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Kristy McClain
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:06 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi &
> Andrew Cohen
> 
> 
> Ed,
> 
> So do you have a comment about this?
> 
> To amplify my comment to Bill. When I watched Genpo say this to a
> student, I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to
> confront the student with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love". Gempo
> was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and entire
> behavior indicated that he, himself, had simply lost control. As for
> Andrew Cohen, frankly-- I cannot understand this guy. He can talk
> non-stop for hours. My ears hurt when starts rambling on and on with
> what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble. Hailed as
> brilliant, I cannot understand most of what he says.
> 
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack
> Kornfield, TNH, Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way. But
> perhaps it is also telling to note that this is a teaching style I
> avoided as not right for me.
> 
> Kristy
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 11/17/10, ED  wrote:
> 
> From: ED 
> Subject: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew
> Cohen
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 1:21 PM
> 
> 
> The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs (8:44)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 5627 (20101117) __
> 
> The message was checked by ESET

Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[ED]

Kristy,

Each comment I make concerning the teacher-student relationship does
*not* necessarily apply to all. Here are some comments:

You must be at least 21 years of age, and be willing  to be accountable
to yourself for *all* your choices and all that happens to you, before
engaging in spiritual training with a teacher.

You must make yourelf aware of the teacher's traditions, teaching style
and recommended practices, and check the Internet about his reputation.

You must feel that you have something to learn from your teacher.

You must explore and discuss with others any uneasy feelings you have
about your teacher.

You must feel inspired by your teacher.

You must hold on tight to your wallet/purse and your pants/panties, if
that feels right for you.

Who they *really* are and all their foibles are irrelevant if you are
learning and growing by being with them.

Take whatever of his/her teachings that you like and can assimilate, and
ignore the rest.

Be particularly careful if you have a 'powerful' or 'famous' teacher,
and if you know yourself to be or you have been told that you are a
psychologically/emotionally vulnerable person.

If perplexed, one can look for a local zendo, preferebly with an East
Asian roshi, whom you feel good about, and join the sangha, practice
zazen, listen to teishos and read what the teacher recommends. One must
not engage in sexual relations with the teacher.

At all times study and practice Theravadin buddhist texts.

--ED

PS1: I have not studied Genpo Roshi's current teaching and practices
sufficiently. My educated or uneducated guess is that it is 20% zen and
80% psychological/human-potential-movement-like  (20% 'tough love',  20%
est-like,  40% 'voice dialog'.)

PS2: The teachers mentioned at the end of your message I think are well
grounded in Hinayana Buddhism's introspection, ethics and morality.
Without an *aboslute* minimum of 5 to 10 years of Theravadin buddhist
practice, Mahayana-and-beyond buddhist teachings/practice (and zen too)
are being built on sandy ground.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain 
wrote:
>
> Ed,
>
> So do you have a comment about this?
>
> To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Gempo say  this to  a
student, I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to
confront the student with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".

>  Gempo was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and
entire behavior indicated that he, himself,  had simply lost control.

As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand this guy.  He can
talk non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling on and
on with what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as
brilliant,  I cannot understand most of what he says.
>
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack
Kornfield, TNH, Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But
perhaps it is also telling to note that this is a teaching style I
avoided as not right for  me.
>
> Kristy



> >  The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2XsÂ
   (8:44)

Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

 Hello Bill,

Very seldom reading "adamantly disagree" in your post.  May I say that I 
"adamantly support" your statement.


To be Buddha is reaching "absolute awareness" and "absolute equality".  
Or 『正等，正覺』 in Chinese。Every first grader who came to a Buddhist 
school knows this.


My Teacher often said, "we may have different height, but we are all 
standing on level ground."


He bows back, when we bow to him.  I have learned that he leads through 
actions and not words.


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/17/2010 8:23 PM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


Ed and Kristy,

First of all I do want to echo Kristy’s first point which she phrased 
as a question. I too would much rather ED (or anyone who posts) tell 
us your opinion on something. Second best (but still acceptable) is 
for you to first express your opinion and then back it up with a 
reference to someone else. I think the worst case is when you just 
post a URL to someone else’s opinion. You may think this is a way to 
pass information in a neutral manner, but it is second-hand 
information, and information on which there can be no interactive 
discussion with the originator of the opinion.


Usually I don’t even go to links if there it is not there to support 
something else in the post; but I did go to this one and looked at 
about the first 2 minutes of the video.


So secondly I must adamantly disagree with Genpo on the dynamics of a 
zen teacher-student relationship. He described it as a necessarily 
hierarchical relationship: the teacher (roshi) higher than the 
student. He used an example a water system were the Dharma was the 
water, the roshi was the faucet and the student was an empty cup. The 
dynamics of the relationship were that the Dharma necessarily flowed 
through the teacher to the student. This is absolutely incorrect.


The dynamics and relationships are not hierarchical, they are 
horizontal or parallel. Using the water system analogy, BOTH the 
teacher and the student comprise the complete water system. The are 
both the water source, the pipes and the faucet. Presumably the 
teacher has experience in turning on the faucet and accessing the 
water, and the student does not. The teacher can only demonstrate how 
he/she accesses the water and make some suggestions. The student must 
learn how to turn on the faucet for himself.


The point is that Dharma does not flow THROUGH the teacher to the 
student. If that’s the relationship Genpo believes is necessary and 
that he demands, then he has strayed very far from the teachings of 
Maezumi Roshi.


I will direct you to a link which will fully support my position on 
this. To access the link you only need to sit quietly and count your 
breathes.


…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Kristy McClain

Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:06 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & 
Andrew Cohen


Ed,

So do you have a comment about this?

To amplify my comment to Bill. When I watched Genpo say this to a 
student, I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to 
confront the student with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love". Gempo 
was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and entire 
behavior indicated that he, himself, had simply lost control. As for 
Andrew Cohen, frankly-- I cannot understand this guy. He can talk 
non-stop for hours. My ears hurt when starts rambling on and on with 
what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble. Hailed as 
brilliant, I cannot understand most of what he says.


I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack 
Kornfield, TNH, Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way. But 
perhaps it is also telling to note that this is a teaching style I 
avoided as not right for me.


Kristy

--- On Wed, 11/17/10, ED <mailto:seacrofter001%40yahoo.com>> wrote:


From: ED mailto:seacrofter001%40yahoo.com>>
Subject: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew 
Cohen

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 1:21 PM


The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs (8:44)

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RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[BillSmart]

I've got more to say on this subject.

A water system is not a good analogy to use at all.  Just breathing would be a 
better analogy.

When the teacher breathes he/she is very aware of the air going in and out of 
his/her lungs.  The student breathes, but he/she is not aware of the air going 
in and out.  The student is too busy thinking about other things and doesn't 
pay any attention to the air.  Both breathe.  One does it mindfully and one is 
not aware of it.  The teacher doesn't control the air and is certainly not the 
'faucet' from which the student has to get his/her air.

The teacher teaches awareness of what already is and readily available.

There is never any dependency of the student on the teacher.  From what I've 
seen of Genpo's teaching approach, however, it appears to spring from a 
dependency of the teacher on the student - a dependency of Genpo to be 
recognized as the necessary conduit (faucet) to the Dharma by his students.

...Bill!

> -Original Message-
> From: billsm...@hhs1963.org [mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:23 AM
> To: 'Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi &
> Andrew Cohen
> 
> Ed and Kristy,
> 
> First of all I do want to echo Kristy’s first point which she phrased
> as a question.  I too would much rather ED (or anyone who posts) tell
> us your opinion on something.  Second best (but still acceptable) is
> for you to first express your opinion and then back it up with a
> reference to someone else.  I think the worst case is when you just
> post a URL to someone else’s opinion.  You may think this is a way to
> pass information in a neutral manner, but it is second-hand
> information, and information on which there can be no interactive
> discussion with the originator of the opinion.
> 
> Usually I don’t even go to links if there it is not there to support
> something else in the post; but I did go to this one and looked at
> about the first 2 minutes of the video.
> 
> So secondly I must adamantly disagree with Genpo on the dynamics of a
> zen teacher-student relationship.  He described it as a necessarily
> hierarchical relationship: the teacher (roshi) higher than the student.
> He used an example a water system were the Dharma was the water, the
> roshi was the faucet and the student was an empty cup.  The dynamics of
> the relationship were that the Dharma necessarily flowed through the
> teacher to the student.  This is absolutely incorrect.
> 
> The dynamics and relationships are not hierarchical, they are
> horizontal or parallel.  Using the water system analogy, BOTH the
> teacher and the student comprise the complete water system.  The are
> both the water source, the pipes and the faucet.  Presumably the
> teacher has experience in turning on the faucet and accessing the
> water, and the student does not.  The teacher can only demonstrate how
> he/she accesses the water and make some suggestions.  The student must
> learn how to turn on the faucet for himself.
> 
> The point is that Dharma does not flow THROUGH the teacher to the
> student.  If that’s the relationship Genpo believes is necessary and
> that he demands, then he has strayed very far from the teachings of
> Maezumi Roshi.
> 
> I will direct you to a link which will fully support my position on
> this.  To access the link you only need to sit quietly and count your
> breathes.
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Kristy McClain
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:06 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi &
> Andrew Cohen
> 
> 
> Ed,
> 
> So do you have a comment about this?
> 
> To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Genpo say  this to  a
> student, I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to
> confront the student with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".  Gempo
> was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and entire
> behavior indicated that he, himself,  had simply lost control.  As for
> Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand this guy.  He can talk
> non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling on and on with
> what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as
> brilliant,  I cannot understand most of what he says.
> 
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack
> Kornfield, TNH, Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But
> perhaps it is also telling to note that this is a teaching style I
> avoided as not right for  me.
> 
> Kristy
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 

RE: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[BillSmart]

Ed and Kristy,

First of all I do want to echo Kristy’s first point which she phrased as a 
question.  I too would much rather ED (or anyone who posts) tell us your 
opinion on something.  Second best (but still acceptable) is for you to first 
express your opinion and then back it up with a reference to someone else.  I 
think the worst case is when you just post a URL to someone else’s opinion.  
You may think this is a way to pass information in a neutral manner, but it is 
second-hand information, and information on which there can be no interactive 
discussion with the originator of the opinion.

Usually I don’t even go to links if there it is not there to support something 
else in the post; but I did go to this one and looked at about the first 2 
minutes of the video.

So secondly I must adamantly disagree with Genpo on the dynamics of a zen 
teacher-student relationship.  He described it as a necessarily hierarchical 
relationship: the teacher (roshi) higher than the student.  He used an example 
a water system were the Dharma was the water, the roshi was the faucet and the 
student was an empty cup.  The dynamics of the relationship were that the 
Dharma necessarily flowed through the teacher to the student.  This is 
absolutely incorrect.

The dynamics and relationships are not hierarchical, they are horizontal or 
parallel.  Using the water system analogy, BOTH the teacher and the student 
comprise the complete water system.  The are both the water source, the pipes 
and the faucet.  Presumably the teacher has experience in turning on the faucet 
and accessing the water, and the student does not.  The teacher can only 
demonstrate how he/she accesses the water and make some suggestions.  The 
student must learn how to turn on the faucet for himself.

The point is that Dharma does not flow THROUGH the teacher to the student.  If 
that’s the relationship Genpo believes is necessary and that he demands, then 
he has strayed very far from the teachings of Maezumi Roshi.

I will direct you to a link which will fully support my position on this.  To 
access the link you only need to sit quietly and count your breathes.

…Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:06 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

  
Ed,
 
So do you have a comment about this?
 
To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Genpo say  this to  a student, I 
do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to confront the student with 
his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".  Gempo was visably irritated, and his 
body language, tone of voice and entire behavior indicated that he, himself,  
had simply lost control.  As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand 
this guy.  He can talk non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling 
on and on with what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as 
brilliant,  I cannot understand most of what he says.
 
I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack Kornfield, TNH, 
Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But perhaps it is also telling to 
note that this is a teaching style I avoided as not right for  me.
 
Kristy


--- On Wed, 11/17/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 1:21 PM
  
 
The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs  (8:44)




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database 5627 (20101117) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

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database 5627 (20101117) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

[Kristy McClain]

Ed,
 
So do you have a comment about this?
 
To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Gempo say  this to  a student, I 
do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to confront the student with 
his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".  Gempo was visably irritated, and his 
body language, tone of voice and entire behavior indicated that he, himself,  
had simply lost control.  As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand 
this guy.  He can talk non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt when  starts rambling 
on and on with what I perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as 
brilliant,  I cannot understand most of what he says.
 
I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack Kornfield, TNH, 
Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.  But perhaps it is also telling to 
note that this is a teaching style I avoided as not right for  me.
 
Kristy


--- On Wed, 11/17/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 1:21 PM


  




 
The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2Xs  (8:44)