Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
bill.. what a beautiful poem hui neng has crafted.. i see the site also has information..that i have investigated..t he bottom line to zen.. is that enlightenment that cannot be grasped with any tools please correct me if i am incorrect has edgar been aware that is the way of zen? maybe his harping of the intellect and rational thought might just be able to rest and he finally will be free of all that huffing and puffing and mind bending acrobatics merle Merle, I don't think you can 'over polish' in the way I meant to use it. I meant it to mean wipe away all traces of self and attachment. That is zen practice. When that's been fully achieved there is nothing left to which attachments can anchor and nothing left to polish. I assume that's 'full enlightenment'. This is similar to the well known zen story about Hui Neng, the 6th Patriarch One day the Fifth Patriarch told his monks to express their wisdom in a poem. Whoever had true realization of his original nature (Buddha Nature) would be ordained the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk, Shen Hsiu, was the most learned, and wrote the following: The body is the wisdom-tree, The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; Take care to wipe it all the time, And allow no dust to cling. The poem was praised, but The Fifth Patriarch knew that Shen Hsiu had not yet found his original nature, on the other hand, Hui Neng couldn't even write, so someone had to write down his poem, which read: Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight? The Fifth Patriarch pretended that he wasn't impressed with this poem either, but in the middle of the night he summoned Hui Neng. The Fifth Patriarch gave him the insignia of his office, the Patriarch's robe and bowl (source). Hui Neng was told to leave for the South and to hide his enlightenment and understanding until the proper time arrives for him to propagate the Dharma. - Source: http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill... thank you for your good advice can one over polish.? i spy  with my little eye over polishing may lead to certain arrogance .. merle  Merle, I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying you that the dokusan is over). But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of your zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Merle, This 'unable to grasp' is indeed the crux of the disagreement between Edgar and me - that and some less important semantic issues. For me 'to grasp' means 'to understand'. Understanding is an intellectual process, and yes it is also my opinion that Edgar puts a good deal of emphasis on understanding even in what he would call Zen. I emphasize just 'experience' which does not imply understanding. For example IMO you can experience Buddha Nature but can never understand it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill.. what a beautiful poem hui neng has crafted.. i see the site also has information..that i have investigated..t he bottom line to zen.. is that enlightenment that cannot be grasped with any tools please correct me if i am  incorrect has edgar been aware that is the way of zen? maybe his harping of the intellect and rational thought might just be able to rest and he finally will be free of all that huffing and puffing and mind bending  acrobatics  merle  Merle, I don't think you can 'over polish' in the way I meant to use it. I meant it to mean wipe away all traces of self and attachment. That is zen practice. When that's been fully achieved there is nothing left to which attachments can anchor and nothing left to polish. I assume that's 'full enlightenment'. This is similar to the well known zen story about Hui Neng, the 6th Patriarch One day the Fifth Patriarch told his monks to express their wisdom in a poem. Whoever had true realization of his original nature (Buddha Nature) would be ordained the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk, Shen Hsiu, was the most learned, and wrote the following: The body is the wisdom-tree, The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; Take care to wipe it all the time, And allow no dust to cling. The poem was praised, but The Fifth Patriarch knew that Shen Hsiu had not yet found his original nature, on the other hand, Hui Neng couldn't even write, so someone had to write down his poem, which read: Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight? The Fifth Patriarch pretended that he wasn't impressed with this poem either, but in the middle of the night he summoned Hui Neng. The Fifth Patriarch gave him the insignia of his office, the Patriarch's robe and bowl (source). Hui Neng was told to leave for the South and to hide his enlightenment and understanding until the proper time arrives for him to propagate the Dharma. - Source: http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill... thank you for your good advice can one over polish.? i spy àwith my little eye over polishing may lead to certain arrogance .. merle àMerle, I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying you that the dokusan is over). But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of your zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Mike, It's true you don't have to ask anyone if you are enlightened - if you really are. However there are plenty of people who think they are enlightened because somebody gave them a yam leaf diploma when they aren't. That being said everyone is already enlightened. It's just that a lot of people don't realize they are enlightened. Enlightenment is simply a matter of realizing you are already enlightened and always have been. But you really have to understand what that really means Edgar On May 23, 2013, at 12:22 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed. Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance Sent: Thu, May 23, 2013 3:26:06 AM mike i get your drift.. however how does one know when one is awakened?... and can one be awakened permanently or does one fall back to sleep so to speak..and loose the drift... merle Merle, There have no doubt been many who have wiped the dust from their eyes since, and before, the historical Buddha. The important thing is that just like Sidharta Guatama, you too can awaken in this very lifetime; this very moment. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Id, ego and super-ego - keeping the mind in balance Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 8:21:04 AM mike..i see..thank you... can you point to me a person in history apart from buddha who has reached the pinnacle of enlightenment?..merle Merle, The only thing the Freudian concept of 'ego' shares with the Buddhist concept of the same is the name. They're quite different concepts. Check this out from www.luminousbuddha.com: The Latin term ego was first used in a translation of Freud’s work to refer to his idea of the “I” or the reality principle within the dynamic forces of the psyche. He suggests the functions of the “I” include reasoning, a sense of self-capacity and the mediator between the polarized demands of instinctual drives and societal expectations. While he considered the “I” a mechanism of the self, he did not use the term ego. Nevertheless the word ego entered the mainstream in professional conversations of the analytic understanding of the human being as it began with Freud’s thought. As psychology became popularized the word ego entered the common vernacular to describe attitudes and behaviors considered selfish or inflated. The slang use of ego is generally a derogatory term for behaviors considered out of the range of social acceptance. Slang borrows from the inflated side of the psychodynamic description of the unhealthy manifestations of ego yet lacks a deeper understanding of its causes. In the 1970’s Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a Tibetan lama, began utilizing the term ego to describe a neurotic process based on the ignorance of our actual situation (Trungpa, 1978) resulting in a solidified sense of self that is separate and self-referential and as such is the cause of suffering. He saw the projections of the ego as an incorrect understanding of the interdependent nature of reality and the primary obstruction to clear seeing and compassion. He borrowed aspects of the term from both psychology and modern vernacular usage. Buddhists around the world have embraced this usage of the term ego and use it regularly to describe the common illusion of a static separate self that emphasizes it’s self-importance in relation to the world. This Buddhist definition can now be understood as a unique understanding of the word ego as well. The field of transpersonal psychology has borrowed from the Buddhist usage of the term ego in the psychological and spiritual mapping of human development. The confusion that has arisen from the different usages of the term ego is
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Lousy translation mine is much better... I've posted it here before but no doubt it sailed over everyone's heads! Edgar On May 23, 2013, at 1:37 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, I don't think you can 'over polish' in the way I meant to use it. I meant it to mean wipe away all traces of self and attachment. That is zen practice. When that's been fully achieved there is nothing left to which attachments can anchor and nothing left to polish. I assume that's 'full enlightenment'. This is similar to the well known zen story about Hui Neng, the 6th Patriarch One day the Fifth Patriarch told his monks to express their wisdom in a poem. Whoever had true realization of his original nature (Buddha Nature) would be ordained the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk, Shen Hsiu, was the most learned, and wrote the following: The body is the wisdom-tree, The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; Take care to wipe it all the time, And allow no dust to cling. The poem was praised, but The Fifth Patriarch knew that Shen Hsiu had not yet found his original nature, on the other hand, Hui Neng couldn't even write, so someone had to write down his poem, which read: Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight? The Fifth Patriarch pretended that he wasn't impressed with this poem either, but in the middle of the night he summoned Hui Neng. The Fifth Patriarch gave him the insignia of his office, the Patriarch's robe and bowl (source). Hui Neng was told to leave for the South and to hide his enlightenment and understanding until the proper time arrives for him to propagate the Dharma. - Source: http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill... thank you for your good advice can one over polish.? i spy  with my little eye over polishing may lead to certain arrogance .. merle  Merle, I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying you that the dokusan is over). But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of your zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Bill, Experience without understanding is experience of illusion experienced AS illusion. Experience WITH understanding is the experience of illusion experienced as REALITY! Edgar On May 23, 2013, at 4:45 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, This 'unable to grasp' is indeed the crux of the disagreement between Edgar and me - that and some less important semantic issues. For me 'to grasp' means 'to understand'. Understanding is an intellectual process, and yes it is also my opinion that Edgar puts a good deal of emphasis on understanding even in what he would call Zen. I emphasize just 'experience' which does not imply understanding. For example IMO you can experience Buddha Nature but can never understand it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill.. what a beautiful poem hui neng has crafted.. i see the site also has information..that i have investigated..t he bottom line to zen.. is that enlightenment that cannot be grasped with any tools please correct me if i am  incorrect has edgar been aware that is the way of zen? maybe his harping of the intellect and rational thought might just be able to rest and he finally will be free of all that huffing and puffing and mind bending  acrobatics  merle  Merle, I don't think you can 'over polish' in the way I meant to use it. I meant it to mean wipe away all traces of self and attachment. That is zen practice. When that's been fully achieved there is nothing left to which attachments can anchor and nothing left to polish. I assume that's 'full enlightenment'. This is similar to the well known zen story about Hui Neng, the 6th Patriarch One day the Fifth Patriarch told his monks to express their wisdom in a poem. Whoever had true realization of his original nature (Buddha Nature) would be ordained the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk, Shen Hsiu, was the most learned, and wrote the following: The body is the wisdom-tree, The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; Take care to wipe it all the time, And allow no dust to cling. The poem was praised, but The Fifth Patriarch knew that Shen Hsiu had not yet found his original nature, on the other hand, Hui Neng couldn't even write, so someone had to write down his poem, which read: Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight? The Fifth Patriarch pretended that he wasn't impressed with this poem either, but in the middle of the night he summoned Hui Neng. The Fifth Patriarch gave him the insignia of his office, the Patriarch's robe and bowl (source). Hui Neng was told to leave for the South and to hide his enlightenment and understanding until the proper time arrives for him to propagate the Dharma. - Source: http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill... thank you for your good advice can one over polish.? i spy  with my little eye over polishing may lead to certain arrogance .. merle  Merle, I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying you that the dokusan is over). But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of your zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Edgar,br/br/I just think you just have a bad case of yam leaf envy. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Mike, Good come back, even though not true... :-) Edgar On May 23, 2013, at 10:49 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, I just think you just have a bad case of yam leaf envy. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance Sent: Thu, May 23, 2013 12:53:16 PM Mike, It's true you don't have to ask anyone if you are enlightened - if you really are. However there are plenty of people who think they are enlightened because somebody gave them a yam leaf diploma when they aren't. That being said everyone is already enlightened. It's just that a lot of people don't realize they are enlightened. Enlightenment is simply a matter of realizing you are already enlightened and always have been. But you really have to understand what that really means Edgar On May 23, 2013, at 12:22 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed. Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance Sent: Thu, May 23, 2013 3:26:06 AM mike i get your drift.. however how does one know when one is awakened?... and can one be awakened permanently or does one fall back to sleep so to speak..and loose the drift... merle Merle, There have no doubt been many who have wiped the dust from their eyes since, and before, the historical Buddha. The important thing is that just like Sidharta Guatama, you too can awaken in this very lifetime; this very moment. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Id, ego and super-ego - keeping the mind in balance Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 8:21:04 AM mike..i see..thank you... can you point to me a person in history apart from buddha who has reached the pinnacle of enlightenment?..merle Merle, The only thing the Freudian concept of 'ego' shares with the Buddhist concept of the same is the name. They're quite different concepts. Check this out from www.luminousbuddha.com: The Latin term ego was first used in a translation of Freud’s work to refer to his idea of the “I” or the reality principle within the dynamic forces of the psyche. He suggests the functions of the “I” include reasoning, a sense of self-capacity and the mediator between the polarized demands of instinctual drives and societal expectations. While he considered the “I” a mechanism of the self, he did not use the term ego. Nevertheless the word ego entered the mainstream in professional conversations of the analytic understanding of the human being as it began with Freud’s thought. As psychology became popularized the word ego entered the common vernacular to describe attitudes and behaviors considered selfish or inflated. The slang use of ego is generally a derogatory term for behaviors considered out of the range of social acceptance. Slang borrows from the inflated side of the psychodynamic description of the unhealthy manifestations of ego yet lacks a deeper understanding of its causes. In the 1970’s Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a Tibetan lama, began utilizing the term ego to describe a neurotic process based on the ignorance of our actual situation (Trungpa, 1978) resulting in a solidified sense of self that is separate and self-referential and as such is the cause of suffering. He saw the projections of the ego as an incorrect understanding of the interdependent nature of reality and the primary obstruction to clear seeing and compassion. He borrowed aspects of the term from both psychology and modern vernacular usage. Buddhists around the world have embraced this usage of the term ego and use it regularly to describe the common illusion
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Mike, Poor fellow is obviously not getting his greens. I've seen his kind of behavior from other vitamin-deficient folks before, especially in Sophomores in college. But, let's not talk behind Edgar's back. ;-) --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, I just think you just have a bad case of yam leaf envy. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Joe, Again a made up delusion in your head. I just finished eating raw broccoli. But I'm not moronic enough to claim I could live on broccoli alone. That, my friend is the difference between illusion and reality to which you are blind A hopeless case when adolescent come backs are more important than truth Edgar On May 23, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Joe wrote: Mike, Poor fellow is obviously not getting his greens. I've seen his kind of behavior from other vitamin-deficient folks before, especially in Sophomores in college. But, let's not talk behind Edgar's back. ;-) --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, I just think you just have a bad case of yam leaf envy.
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Edgar, Finished, is right. Just as I though. Raw. See, in China, they know better to COOK food so that the nutrients can get out of the cells. You're starving. Get help. Surely you can hire someone to come and cook for you a few days a week? --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Again a made up delusion in your head. I just finished eating raw broccoli. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Edgar, Please don't call me your friend. Say WHAT? Talk about DELUSIONS! --J. ;-) Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Again a made up delusion in your head. I just finished eating raw broccoli. But I'm not moronic enough to claim I could live on broccoli alone. That, my friend [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Joe,br/br/Poor guy is obviously spiritually anorexic. Needs to start cultivating those yam seeds now!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Merle, I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying you that the dokusan is over). But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of your zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
mike..good advice..thank you...merle Merle, You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed. Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance Sent: Thu, May 23, 2013 3:26:06 AM mike i get your drift.. however how does one know when one is awakened?... and can one be awakened permanently or does one fall back to sleep so to speak..and loose the drift... merle Merle, There have no doubt been many who have wiped the dust from their eyes since, and before, the historical Buddha. The important thing is that just like Sidharta Guatama, you too can awaken in this very lifetime; this very moment. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Id, ego and super-ego - keeping the mind in balance Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 8:21:04 AM mike..i see..thank you... can you point to me a person in history apart from buddha who has reached the pinnacle of enlightenment?..merle Merle, The only thing the Freudian concept of 'ego' shares with the Buddhist concept of the same is the name. They're quite different concepts. Check this out from www.luminousbuddha.com: The Latin term ego was first used in a translation of Freud’s work to refer to his idea of the “I” or the reality principle within the dynamic forces of the psyche. He suggests the functions of the “I” include reasoning, a sense of self-capacity and the mediator between the polarized demands of instinctual drives and societal expectations. While he considered the “I” a mechanism of the self, he did not use the term ego. Nevertheless the word ego entered the mainstream in professional conversations of the analytic understanding of the human being as it began with Freud’s thought. As psychology became popularized the word ego entered the common vernacular to describe attitudes and behaviors considered selfish or inflated. The slang use of ego is generally a derogatory term for behaviors considered out of the range of social acceptance. Slang borrows from the inflated side of the psychodynamic description of the unhealthy manifestations of ego yet lacks a deeper understanding of its causes. In the 1970’s Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a Tibetan lama, began utilizing the term ego to describe a neurotic process based on the ignorance of our actual situation (Trungpa, 1978) resulting in a solidified sense of self that is separate and self-referential and as such is the cause of suffering. He saw the projections of the ego as an incorrect understanding of the interdependent nature of reality and the primary obstruction to clear seeing and compassion. He borrowed aspects of the term from both psychology and modern vernacular usage. Buddhists around the world have embraced this usage of the term ego and use it regularly to describe the common illusion of a static separate self that emphasizes it’s self-importance in relation to the world. This Buddhist definition can now be understood as a unique understanding of the word ego as well. The field of transpersonal psychology has borrowed from the Buddhist usage of the term ego in the psychological and spiritual mapping of human development. The confusion that has arisen from the different usages of the term ego is significant to those in the field of psychology as well as Buddhist practitioners who have an incomplete understanding of the word in its several contexts. The general public would also benefit from a further understanding of the factors relating to the formation of an aggrandized sense of self to which the slang usage of ego refers. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject:
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
bill... thank you for your good advice can one over polish.? i spy with my little eye over polishing may lead to certain arrogance .. merle Merle, I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying you that the dokusan is over). But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of your zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] keeping the mind in balance
Merle, I don't think you can 'over polish' in the way I meant to use it. I meant it to mean wipe away all traces of self and attachment. That is zen practice. When that's been fully achieved there is nothing left to which attachments can anchor and nothing left to polish. I assume that's 'full enlightenment'. This is similar to the well known zen story about Hui Neng, the 6th Patriarch One day the Fifth Patriarch told his monks to express their wisdom in a poem. Whoever had true realization of his original nature (Buddha Nature) would be ordained the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk, Shen Hsiu, was the most learned, and wrote the following: The body is the wisdom-tree, The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; Take care to wipe it all the time, And allow no dust to cling. The poem was praised, but The Fifth Patriarch knew that Shen Hsiu had not yet found his original nature, on the other hand, Hui Neng couldn't even write, so someone had to write down his poem, which read: Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight? The Fifth Patriarch pretended that he wasn't impressed with this poem either, but in the middle of the night he summoned Hui Neng. The Fifth Patriarch gave him the insignia of his office, the Patriarch's robe and bowl (source). Hui Neng was told to leave for the South and to hide his enlightenment and understanding until the proper time arrives for him to propagate the Dharma. - Source: http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill... thank you for your good advice can one over polish.? i spy  with my little eye over polishing may lead to certain arrogance .. merle  Merle, I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying you that the dokusan is over). But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of your zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Merle,br/br/You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty you'll know your perception of the world has changed.br/br/Just as reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go of.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
