Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: But my whole point is that it is SO easy to sit back and second guess what might have been or could have been or whatever 57 years ago. But all those who do this are not in the position that President Truman was. Truman fired MacArthur. It is unlikely that he did anything else right. All MacArthur wanted was permission to win the Korean War. He should have quit before Truman fired him. But Truman was a first class villain. My feelings about Truman are 180 degrees out of phase with those I feel for Washington, Reagan, etc. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "A liberal in the Church is merely one who does not have a testimony." --President Harold B. Lee === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: EVERY ward or branch has a little old man or lady who speaks in tongues every fast and testimony meeting! Usually they spew forth sermons about fire and brimstone. Of course, everyone understands what they are saying even before they speak, since we all expect it Much of scripture is devoted to descriptions of this "fire and brimstone." I wonder why so few pay attention? Maybe the Lord made a mistake to include such negative, pessimistic stuff in the scriptures, do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "A liberal in the Church is merely one who does not have a testimony." --President Harold B. Lee === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] One Party Rule?
Perhaps Marc should ask himself the question why Utah appears to be dominated by one party politics. Perhaps Utah just leads the way in setting trends. The following analysis of our recent elections comes from www.citizenslobby.com: AMERICA MOVES RIGHTWARD To the chagrin of the liberal elites, the American people made a monumental shift to the right in the 2002 mid-term elections. For the first time in history, the Republican Party gained seats in both the House and Senate in a non-presidential election. In the gubernatorial races, more Democrat incumbents went down in defeat, as the GOP defied expectations with victories in liberal states like Maryland, Massachusetts and Hawaii. As for state legislatures, the majority of them are now controlled by Republicans. On various referendum issues, American citizens spoke from the heart. In Virginia, voters crushed a sales tax hike initiative. In Massachusetts, citizens rejected bilingual education in favor of English-only instruction. In the state of Nevada voters repudiated homosexual marriage and legalization of marijuana. Likewise, in controversial races with hot-button issues like "immigration," Republicans rolled to victory. Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), who has made immigration reform and border security the cornerstone of his Capitol Hill tenure, was re-elected with nearly 70% of the vote, after weeks of slander by radical ethnic groups and the liberal Denver press. In Georgia, a Republican was elected governor for the first time since Reconstruction! This victory was due, in large part, to Democrat incumbent Roy Barnes' politically-correct destruction of the Georgia state flag, as well as his laxity in addressing illegal immigrants within the state. All of these electoral results enumerate a political, social and cultural trend to the right. They also happen to coincide, with no surprising reason, a major surge in Republican Party registrations in southern states and a big increase in independent/third-party registrations nationally during the last three election cycles. Hopefully, the White House and Republicans in Congress will wake up and seize this opportunity to enact a real conservative and populist agenda that reflects the true mainstream of America. Among the top priorities of the 108th Congress should be border security and immigration reform. Stay tuned with CitizensLobby.com at http://www.citizenslobby.com as we fight to put the interests of American citizens first. My concern is that many of these newly elected Republicans will turn out to be RINO's (Republican in name only). -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: >Do we wait until Islam engulfs the nations and becomes a giant >threat,before we "encourage" it to stand down and live peacefully among >the nations of the world? John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become "a giant threat" that "engulfs the nations?" That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Dan: IIRC, there is a cleric in England that has declared his intention of making that country Islamic using whatever means necessary. Whether or not he succeeds is one thing, but part of my recollection is that he also spoke out justifying the 9/11 attacks. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
> Dan: > What do you consider as first? IIRC, we did start troop movements, but the > first bombs didn't drop until after the coalition was in place. Jon: That's my point. it was a LOOONNGGG time between the two events. We are not even near the point where bombs would drop, and President Bush seems to be building his coalition much better than most anyone thought. of course, only time will tell. The big election wins didn't hurt his efforts one bit. Dan: Granted - at least when measured against the length of time of actual fighting. But again, IIRC, most of the delay was due to our inefficiency in moving the heavy armor and supplies over there. We really didn't have much in the way of forward bases before then, and we needed to create a line of defense before we could get serious about going on the offensive. Saudi was clearly on board at the very start; we couldn't have started moving troops until then. I think the announcement of the coalition was delayed until we were on the ground and ready to go. This battle will be different - and this is only a battle in a _very_ long war; because the situation is different. We already have a lot of material there, we have troops on the ground training already, and the tactics will most likely be "search and destroy" vs. "denial of ground" type missions. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
At 23:18 11/8/2002 -0800, Stacey wrote: Where do the Mexicans align themselves? Certainly not at a border crossing! Till the ever-watchful / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Marc: I don't think so. The foreigners had to get their assets into place, too. It wasn't unilateral. In fact, it's ironic that you're showing this particular kind of ignorance on the topic -- it was precisely because the Saudis allowed foreign, non-Moslem soldiers on its soil that set bin Laden off. You started off politically, first with the Saudis, to get permission to move some of the things that couldn't be airlifted in (like most of the tanks your army uses). Light infantry were only brought in when the infrastructure was in place. And Canadian, Australian and British ships can't sail any faster than their U.S. counterparts -- they headed for the Gulf months ahead of time, just like the U.S. forces did. Dan: My recollection is slightly different here Marc: The Airborne Divisions were the first in. They were there to provide defense against a possible thrust into Saudi Arabia, and the area around the shipyards so that the heavy material had a place to stage from. Beyond that you're right: everybody had to get their equipment there and sorted out before anything could get started. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 09:31 11/9/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: I was in one of the classrooms at Parirenwatwa Hospital (formerly Sir Sanford Fleming Hospital) in Harare, Zimbabwe, about 7 or 8 years ago, and saw a display of what happened when a janitor picked up a small vial of caesium powder and put it in his pocket (it was a lesson on the need for proper storage security -- this kind of incident would be unthinkable in an OECD country's hospital. One would hope, anyway). He only had it for a day before he gave it to a doctor, How comforting. My office is sandwiched between a plant growth room and Cesium storage. Till the glow-worm / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 12:45 11/9/2002 -0700, Steven wrote: The primary target was Kokura, a major munitions manufacturing center. Kokura was obscured by clouds and smoke (leftover from an earlier raid on a nearby city) so the bombadier couldn't get an exact target despite three separate passes. The secondary target was Nagasaki which was also obscured by clouds but after a couple of passes the clouds parted, and the rest is history. As though precision was really necessary. Hindsight is always very good. Till the ever watchful / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
At 17:42 11/9/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Munther Unes. A very fine gentleman if ever I have met one. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...
At 16:20 11/10/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: Another was "the shot heard 'round the world" fired at Lexington and Concord. I wish we could do it again. It would have been wonderful to have lived in that day when freedom was a flame upon every lip, or at least every lip that mattered. I stood in the middle of that bridge one day in a snowstorm and contemplated the great things that took place there. It was a powerful moment. I am grateful for my ancestors and their associates who cared enough about freedom to sacrifice their comfort and safety to secure them. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Just War
An interesting commentary by a Catholic scholar on just war. Note especially the emphasis he puts on "non-combatant immunity" considering our recent discussions, pro and con, regarding this issue: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=11136 -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] ". . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests of the world."--John Taylor / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Some 11/11 thoughts
We used to be rather thin-skinned about criticism in Canada. While there's still a lot of that, as these letters in today's Flop and Flail show, in response to the right-wing cult figure Jonah Greenberg's half tongue-in-cheek column in National Review that Canada should be invaded for its own good, we're learning to take a joke (and just ignore the ignorant ramblings of an idjut like Pat Buchanan. At least Greenberg's funny). By MICHAEL O'MAHONY Monday, November 11, 2002 Page A12 Yerevan, Armenia -- If Jonah Goldberg really intended to portray Canadians as wimps (Head To The Bunkers, The Yanks Are Coming -- Nov. 9), his article in National Review is, if nothing else, poorly timed. As his country's massive military prepares to crush a Third World country, ours remembers those who were lost in past wars. What's poignant is that at critical junctures in at least the First and Second World Wars, the United States turned its back on its allies, while Canadians fought hard. One might think the U.S. military, or the mindset that governs it, is only prepared to go to war when the enemy is virtually incapable of offering a credible resistance, and only requires allies to give some semblance of legitimacy to the endeavour. By MIKE WADYKA Monday, November 11, 2002 Page A12 Port Hope, Ont. -- Bombing Canada, as Jonah Goldberg suggests, with tongue firmly planted in cheek beside his foot, is not such a novel concept . . . after all, the Yanks have already had ample practice blowing up Canadians in Afghanistan. By STEVE PITT Monday, November 11, 2002 Page A12 Toronto -- "If we give away the milk for free, you won't subscribe to the cow," National Review senior editor Jonah Goldberg lamely quips in his on-line column to induce people to subscribe to his silly magazine. On the other hand, anyone with an Internet connection is able to read many of National Review's right-wing rants for free. My question is, when you can get an unlimited supply of free manure, why buy the bull? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] The USA's contribution to the poppy as token of Remembrance Day
I've been concentrating Remembrance Day as a Canadian formal stat holiday, but it is also Armistice Day in the U.S. And, though most Canadians don't seem to know this, ironically the poppy came to be popularized by a U.S. lady. I only ever see it in Commonwealth countries, but my father-in-law (who fought in the U.S. 17th Airborne in the Battle of the Bulge, under command of the British 8th Army) once told me that there are areas of the U.S. where the poppy is worn today. We went shopping on Saturday and all the Royal Canadian Legionaires and the Air Cadets were out with poppies, throughout the mall. About a third of those in church yesterday were wearing one (we went to Callingwood Park ward, instead of Spruce Grove ward, because our soon-to-be four-year-old granddaughter was giving a talk in Sacrament there). Here's the story, as contained in today's "Social Studies" column by Michael Kesterton: Poppy Day creator In 1944, The New York Herald Tribune reported: "Miss Moina Michael, who originated Poppy Day in 1918 as a memorial to the World War dead, died [May 10] in a hospital after an illness of several months. She was 74 years old. Col. John McCrae's poem, "In Flanders Fields", gave Miss Michael the inspiration for the annual poppy sales, which spread to many nations...Miss Michael, a teacher, who was for 25 years on the University of Georgia* faculty, first read Col. McCrae's poem two days before the armistice in 1918. It touched her so deeply that she resolved to wear a poppy as a pledge toward fulfillment of Col. McCrae's ideals." In 1919, the newspaper adds, Miss Michael's poppy-wearing campaign proceeded informally, but in 1920 the plan was adopted by the national convention of the American Legion.zion-l *Ironically the post I gave a few days ago, with a link to the poem, was to a site at Emory University's English dept., which is also in Georgia. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New stake in France
Not yet. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > Only in France would two chefs be part of a stake presidency! > > ___ > > And what a fine presidency it must be! Wonderful news for > the saints in the Toulouse area. > > Have you heard anything more about land for a temple in > the area of Paris? > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Flying Lessons (was Taliban in Pakistan)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > Very good! Another week in Moose Jaw for our boy genius :-) > > Larry Jackson: > I think he'll enjoy his fortnight with the Moose Javians. > > Marc: > My cousin's husband ... is tired of rotary wing and wants to > switch to fixed wing. > > Larry: > I work for a place that modifies military aircraft. We call > the helicopter folks our ceiling fan division. > > Marc: > We put the base there because there's nothing to hit that's > higher than a grain elevator) > > Larry: > Except for that water tower five miles out on final approach. > > (Is Spruce Grove near Cold Lake?) > Define close. Their ward is in one of our sister stakes, the Edmonton Bonnie Doon stake, but I would estimate it's a good 3 or 4 hour drive to the NE to Cherry Grove, the closest major city at the SW corner of the base (which, including the Primrose Lake Air Weapons Range, extends well into Saskatchewan -- probably about the size of Connecticut). Here's a map, which doesn't have a scaleso you can figure out how close Cold Lake is by seeing where the Cherry Grove ward is: http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/north_america/canada/AB_edmonton.gif As you can see, we're on the other side of Edmonton from Cherry Grove, so add an hour to get through greater Edmonton to the trip. Parkland Ward, which is our sister ward, is the one of which Mark Gregson is the bishop. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history
These stories may or may not be true. How do you know? Many people think Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a lad, too, but this story has been traced to a "moral tale" by a Protestant preacher, iirc, in the 19th century. Stacy Smith wrote: > I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Where can I find more? > > Stacy. > > At 06:15 AM 11/11/2002 +, you wrote: > > >http://www.abbottloop.org/alconweb/pol_news/mythafa.htm > > > >During the French and Indian War, the 23-year-old Washington was > >fighting with the British against the French who were allied with > >the Indians. On July 9, 1755, in the Battle of the Monongahela, the > >British regiments were ambushed by the French and Indians. Of the > >86 British and Virginia officers, only Washington was not shot off > >his horse. > > > >After retreating to Maryland, Washington wrote his mother. "After > >the battle was over I took off my jacket and I had four bullet > >holes through my jacket, but not a single bullet had touched me. > >I had several horses shot out from under me, but I was not hurt in > >any way. God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through > >the battle." > > > >In 1770, Washington traveled back to the region and an old Indian > >chief, having heard Washington was back, traveled to meet him. The > >chief told Washington, "You don't know me, but 15 years ago you and > >I were in these same woods. I commanded the Indians you were > >fighting that day. We saw you riding through the woods and knew you > >were a leader. If we could kill you we knew your troops would > >scatter, so I instructed my braves to fire at you. I personally > >fired at you 17 times. When I saw that none of our bullets had any > >effect on you, I told my braves to stop shooting. I have traveled > >all this way to meet the man God would not let die in battle." This > >spiritual account, and many others like it, used to be in our > >history textbooks. > > > >/ > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/ > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after all. This is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been sent out to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States. One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. [emphasis added in bold red] Salt Lake Tribune Types: Utah On-Line Published: 05/03/1998 Page: A1 Keywords: Web Edition; UT; Mormon Church General Authorities; Politics-Politicians; Social Issues; Communities Transcript of Marlin Jensen Interview Byline: Salt Lake Tribune Editor's Note: The following is a transcript of a Salt Lake Tribune interview, conducted on April 23, 1998, with Marlin Jensen of the 1st Quorum of the Seventy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Marlin is also a member of the LDS church's Public Affairs Committee. (Jensen's comments have been transcribed verbatim. The Tribune's questions were edited for clarity and concision.) The Salt Lake Tribune: Earlier this year, the Mormon Church First Presidency issued a statement encouraging members not only to actively participate in politics, but to run for elected office. What was the motivation? Marlin Jensen: ``I think the letter went to stake presidents, I believe just in the United States. But we even gave some thought and it was discussed how to do something on a worldwide basis because I think the perception that our leaders had is that as individual church members we're maybe not quite living up to our obligation to be good citizens. Not just voting, but actually participating in the functions of government on an appointed and an elected basis. So I think the letter reflects a general concern worldwide that it is really part of our religion to be good citizens and to do our share in the community. And its probably related doctrinally in a way to the idea that we're not just to build up the kingdom of God but we're also to establish his righteousness. So that there's a need in order for the gospel to be preached and carried off to all the world to have an environment of righteousness in which that can occur. And, in a word, without a good neighborhood and a good community it's very difficult to have a good family. So good government is very much in the best interests of us as a church and in the work we have to preach the gospel. So that I think would have been the general concern. But I think frankly there was a more specific concern related to the state of Utah as well that prompted the initial discussion of this. It seems like historically -- and maybe it had to do with our more rural character at the time, but it seems (and I have thought about this in the little community where I was raised in Huntsville) that the people of the church, the main leaders, the main people in the church in that period maybe 40 or 50 years ago, were people of affairs. They were people who did lead the community as well as the church. Of course, there was a much greater homogeneity in those days and we're much more diverse now. But I think there's just a feeling that we need to be more active and more visible and reach out more in a civic way than we've been doing. Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the Democratic Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is almost not a factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling that that is not healthy at all -- that as a state we suffer in different ways. But certainly any time you don't have the dialogue and the give-and-take that the democratic process provides, you're going to be poorer for it in the long run. We are locally and I think there is a feeling that even nationally as a church, it's not in our best interest to be known as a one-party church. The national fortunes of the parties ebb and flow. Whereas the Republicans may clearly have the upper hand today in another 10 years they may not. So there are just so many reasons I think to have a robust multi-party system going locally and nationally for us, as well as the international responsibilities we feel -- that's at the heart of this as well.'' Tribune: Democrats, only half-jokingly, say it may be time for the LDS Church to once again draw a line down the middle of ward houses and assign parties. Jensen: ``I think if you look at the letter you'll notice that there's a reference here to urging men and women to be willing to serve -- as you were mentioning -- on school boards, in city and county councils and commissions, state legislatures and other high offices of either election or appointment, including involvement in the political party of their choice. I think that really was an attempt, is an attempt on the part of the First Presidency to indicate that part of being a good Latter-day Saint would be to be politically active in a party of our choice. That we just can't sit by and let other
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002, Marc wrote: Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the Democratic Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is almost not a factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling that that is not healthy at all -- that as a state we suffer in different ways. But certainly any time you don't have the dialogue and the give-and-take that the democratic process provides, you're going to be poorer for it in the long run. Political parties come and go. Shortly after the U.S. was founded there were the Whigs and the Federalists. So now we have Republicans and Democrats--so what? The main point Elder Jensen was making imo is the "dialogue." If the Democratic party goes by the wayside there will always be another party willing to step in and take its place. We are locally and I think there is a feeling that even nationally as a church, it's not in our best interest to be known as a one-party church. The national fortunes of the parties ebb and flow. Whereas the Republicans may clearly have the upper hand today in another 10 years they may not. So there are just so many reasons I think to have a robust multi-party system going locally and nationally for us, as well as the international responsibilities we feel -- that's at the heart of this as well.'' Note here he states, "multi-party system," not necessarily the elitist two party system we have now. The point is the Democratic Party is losing because they've lost touch with the common voter. I don't like a one-party dominance either--let all parties participate and give them equal chances, but don't worship before the altar of Democratic Party politics. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Very good! Stacy. At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after all. This is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been sent out to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States. One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. [emphasis added in bold red] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history
I realize that now after discussing this with Muhammad. Stacy. At 03:46 PM 11/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: These stories may or may not be true. How do you know? Many people think Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a lad, too, but this story has been traced to a "moral tale" by a Protestant preacher, iirc, in the 19th century. Stacy Smith wrote: > I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Where can I find more? > > Stacy. > / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?
-Marc- > One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. "Defiance"? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals. Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren? The leaders of the Republican party in Utah? Any Utah Republicans? Any LDS Republicans? Please clarify your accusation, so I can tell whether I and my family are included in it. > Tribune: What is the attitude of church leaders toward the > lingering sentiment among some Mormons -- apparently stemming > back to comments made by former LDS President Ezra Taft Benson > -- that it is difficult to be a good LDS member and a Democrat? I recall that statement as being "liberal Democrat", though of course I could be mistaken. But even if I am correct, this is after all the Tribune we're talking about, so it's rather naive to expect truth or balance. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
I agree -- the 101st airborne, which is a light division and can be airlifted, as its name implies, was the first *foreign* military on the scene, but they were not the first military forces there. Dan R Allen wrote: > Marc: > I don't think so. The foreigners had to get their assets into place, too. > It > wasn't unilateral. In fact, it's ironic that you're showing this particular > kind > of ignorance on the topic -- it was precisely because the Saudis allowed > foreign, > non-Moslem soldiers on its soil that set bin Laden off. You started off > politically, first with the Saudis, to get permission to move some of the > things > that couldn't be airlifted in (like most of the tanks your army uses). > Light > infantry were only brought in when the infrastructure was in place. And > Canadian, > Australian and British ships can't sail any faster than their U.S. > counterparts > -- they headed for the Gulf months ahead of time, just like the U.S. forces > did. > > Dan: > My recollection is slightly different here Marc: The Airborne Divisions > were the first in. They were there to provide defense against a possible > thrust into Saudi Arabia, and the area around the shipyards so that the > heavy material had a place to stage from. > Beyond that you're right: everybody had to get their equipment there and > sorted out before anything could get started. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
It's not hard to shield against caesium; I wouldn't worry if I were her. The energy is less than 1 MEV by a long shot; only a few hundred thousand KEV, if I recall correctly. Enough to ionize upon contact, but it doesn't require much more than a lead-lined room to keep it shielded. "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 09:31 11/9/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: > > >I was in one of the classrooms at Parirenwatwa Hospital (formerly Sir Sanford > >Fleming Hospital) in Harare, Zimbabwe, about 7 or 8 years ago, and saw a > >display > >of what happened when a janitor picked up a small vial of caesium powder > >and put > >it in his pocket (it was a lesson on the need for proper storage security > >-- this > >kind of incident would be unthinkable in an OECD country's hospital. One would > >hope, anyway). He only had it for a day before he gave it to a doctor, > > > > How comforting. My office is sandwiched between a plant growth room and > Cesium storage. > > Till the glow-worm > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Madsen claims
I enjoy listening to Truman Madsen. Though he tends to sappy and over-the-top rhetoric, he is knowledgeable and pretty enjoyable to listen to. I'm listening to some lectures he gave on Joseph Smith, wherein he references some things I'm not familiar with and have been unable to turn up on Google. Can anyone help me out with references? 1. Lillian Freeze (Lilian Freise? something like that) recorded that Joseph Smith said that the day would come that only Latter-day Saint women would want to have children. 2. William Dimick (Demick? Dimik?) was told by Joseph that he would never taste of death. Help, anyone? Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Just War
In the Catholic Church the concept of a "moral war" was first set out by Augustine some 1600 years ago. His definition was somewhat harsher than our's, and also that of the modern RC Church. Steven Montgomery wrote: > An interesting commentary by a Catholic scholar on just war. Note > especially the emphasis he puts on "non-combatant immunity" considering our > recent discussions, pro and con, regarding this issue: > > http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=11136 > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ". . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct > political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and > comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be > able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests > of the world."--John Taylor > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?
"One party rule" will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early Church leaders. There will be only one party that follows the Lord. Everyone else will follow the adversary. Ultimately this is the only partisan association that matters. While this may not be the pattern for this day, the time is near at hand. Excerpt from "Proclamation of the Twelve", April 6, 1845 As this work progresses in its onward course, and becomes more and more an object of political and religious interest and excitement, no king, ruler, or subject, no community or individual, will stand neutral. All will at length be influenced by one spirit or the other; and will take sides either for or against the kingdom of God, and the fulfillment of the prophets, in the great restoration and return of his long dispersed covenant people. Some will act the part of the venerable Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses; or the noble Cyrus; and will aid and bless the people of God; or like Ruth, the Moabitess, will forsake their people and their kindred and country, and will say to the Saints, or to Israel: "This people shall be my people, and their God my God." While others will walk in the footsteps of a Pharaoh, or a Balak, and will harden their hearts, and fight against God, and seek to destroy his people. These will commune with priests and prophets who love the wages of unrighteousness; and who, like Balaam, will seek to curse, or to find enchantments against Israel. You cannot therefore stand as idle and disinterested spectators of the scenes and events which are calculated in their very nature to reduce all nations and creeds to one political and religious standard, and thus put an end to Babel forms and names, and to strife and war. You will, therefore, either be led by the good Spirit to cast in your lot, and to take a lively interest with the Saints of the Most High, and the covenant people of the Lord, or on the other hand, you will become their inveterate enemy, and oppose them by every means in your power. (James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75), 1: 257.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Madsen claims
Stephen Beecroft wrote: --- 1. Lillian Freeze (Lilian Freise? something like that) recorded that Joseph Smith said that the day would come that only Latter-day Saint women would want to have children. --- Can't locate such a refernce. Will continue searching. --- 2. William Dimick (Demick? Dimik?) was told by Joseph that he would never taste of death. --- This reference appears to be to William Huntington, and his father, Dimick Huntington. The Huntingtons were associates with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. After he was instrumental in delivering Joseph from the mobs in Nauvoo, Joseph promised William that he would never taste of death. Madsen refers to this in a footnote-- William Huntington went west with the exodus and settled eventually in Springville, Utah. One night, forty-three years after the Nauvoo incident, just after going to bed he was conversing with his wife in the darkness. He said something and she replied. She said something and he did not reply. After two or three repetitions she lighted a lamp. Without a sigh or a shudder he had died. The family believed this was the fulfillment of Joseph's promise, which is universalized in the Doctrine and Covenants: "And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them; and they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter" (D&C 42:46-47). See diary of Oliver B. Huntington, vol. 2, p. 271, entry of March 19, 1887. (Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989], .) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Madsen claims
Here's the other reference-- Joseph Smith made many prophetic statements that last to our day. Some of them seemed preposterous at the time. Lillie Freeze recalls one such. "He said the time would come when none but the women of the Latter-day Saints would be willing to bear children."fn In large measure this is already happening today-before our eyes. YWJ 2 (November 1890): 81. One can refuse to bear (beget) children . And one can refuse to bear (love and nurture) begotten children. Both refusals are epidemic in our time. (Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989], 39.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after all. This is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been sent out to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States. One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. Those Utah Mormons don't seem to mind defying the Brethren when it comes to shopping at the mall on Sunday, why should they pay any attention to the Brethren when it comes to being Republican or Democrat? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Madsen claims
the huntingtons were converts from new hampshire, and arrived in the kirtland period. dimick's sister zina is one of the famous zinas my daughter is named after. Jim Cobabe wrote: > > Stephen Beecroft wrote: > --- > 1. Lillian Freeze (Lilian Freise? something like that) recorded that > Joseph Smith said that the day would come that only Latter-day Saint > women would want to have children. > --- > > Can't locate such a refernce. Will continue searching. > > > --- > 2. William Dimick (Demick? Dimik?) was told by Joseph that he would > never taste of death. > --- > > This reference appears to be to William Huntington, and his father, > Dimick Huntington. The Huntingtons were associates with Joseph Smith in > > Nauvoo. After he was instrumental in delivering Joseph from the mobs in > > Nauvoo, Joseph promised William that he would never taste of death. > Madsen refers to this in a footnote-- > > William Huntington went west with the exodus and settled eventually in > Springville, Utah. One night, forty-three years after the Nauvoo > incident, just after going to bed he was conversing with his wife in the > > darkness. He said something and she replied. She said something and he > did not reply. After two or three repetitions she lighted a lamp. > Without a sigh or a shudder he had died. The family believed this was > the fulfillment of Joseph's promise, which is universalized in the > Doctrine and Covenants: "And it shall come to pass that those that die > in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them; and > they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter" (D&C > 42:46-47). See diary of Oliver B. Huntington, vol. 2, p. 271, entry of > March 19, 1887. > (Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, > 1989], .) > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] War against all of Islam
I know an entire family that would fit that description. Their 8-year-old daughter is in my daughter's class at school. We became friends when both girls were in kindergarten together. Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: > At 17:42 11/9/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: > >Tell me the name > >of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their > >nation was dissolved? > > > > Munther Unes. A very fine gentleman if ever I have met one. > > > Till > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family automobile to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly down there and help her drive back. So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to the ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to Prince Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. It sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me or something? Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any buildings... Stephen John W. Redelfs wrote: > It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this > coming > weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of > Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to > > fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family > automobile > to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly > down > there and help her drive back. > > So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit > > the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to > the > ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. > > By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to > Prince > Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston > > and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and > > the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my > trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. > It > sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. > > Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me > or > something? > > Your friend and brother, > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002, Marc wrote: > > > Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the > > Democratic > >Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is > >almost not a > >factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling > >that that > >is not healthy at all -- that as a state we suffer in different ways. But > >certainly any time you don't have the dialogue and the give-and-take that the > >democratic process provides, you're going to be poorer for it in the long run. > > Political parties come and go. Shortly after the U.S. was founded there > were the Whigs and the Federalists. So now we have Republicans and > Democrats--so what? The main point Elder Jensen was making imo is the > "dialogue." If the Democratic party goes by the wayside there will always > be another party willing to step in and take its place. > And that's fair enough. It was the lack of creative tension you have when there's more than one party, and also the fact that the Church needs to "spread its bets," so to speak, that I think are their main concerns. I don't think this is about Democrats and Repubs. per se. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
After much pondering, Stephen Beecroft favored us with: If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any buildings... I wish I could, Stephen. But there isn't any coastal route from the Seattle area to Prince Rupert. It means driving hundreds of miles inland to go north in BC only to drive hundreds of miles back to the coast. You mean you can't get in any of the building because they laid you off? Shame on them. Now that you are no longer working for Microsoft, do you still have the tenacious loyalty to them that you used to feel? How is the job hunt going? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. > > "Defiance"? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals. > Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren? Well, for starters the Republican congressman who publicly criticized Pres. Jensen for his remarks. Also, you've missed a quite legitimate parsing of my sentence. When one says x is in defiance of y, that implies that "belief in x" is in defiance of y. I think that's pretty standard English. > The > leaders of the Republican party in Utah? Any Utah Republicans? Any LDS > Republicans? Please clarify your accusation, so I can tell whether I and > my family are included in it. > > > Tribune: What is the attitude of church leaders toward the > > lingering sentiment among some Mormons -- apparently stemming > > back to comments made by former LDS President Ezra Taft Benson > > -- that it is difficult to be a good LDS member and a Democrat? > > I recall that statement as being "liberal Democrat", though of course I > could be mistaken. But even if I am correct, this is after all the > Tribune we're talking about, so it's rather naive to expect truth or > balance. > And I trust you read Pres. Jensen's answer to the question? I think the reason Pres. Jensen was assigned to talk to the Trib and not the D.N. was precisely because of the Trib's reputation; it was sending Daniel into the lion's den, and is all the more useful, politically, for that reason. That is, no one can accuse him of taking only soft ball lob shots. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the counsel we're given now. Jim Cobabe wrote: > "One party rule" will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early > Church leaders. There will be only one party that follows the Lord. > Everyone else will follow the adversary. Ultimately this is the only > partisan association that matters. While this may not be the pattern > for this day, the time is near at hand. > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?
-Marc- > [Previously] One party domination is in direct defiance of the > Brethren. > [Now] Also, you've missed a quite legitimate parsing of my > sentence. When one says x is in defiance of y, that implies > that "belief in x" is in defiance of y. Okay, that's reasonable. I don't agree with it, but it's much different from (and more inoffensive than) the meaning I originally inferred from your words. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Let us know what you decide, and I'm sure I speak for the 3 of us when I say we'll do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the highway you'll be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and Cardston's about a 45 minute side trip each way (from the main highway south from Lethbridge to Montana). "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming > weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of > Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to > fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family automobile > to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly down > there and help her drive back. > > So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit > the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to the > ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. > > By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to Prince > Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston > and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and > the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my > trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. It > sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. > > Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me or > something? > > Your friend and brother, > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
John, I'm living at my folk's place in central Utah these days. Not doing much of anything--I've just been hanging around half-heartedly looking for gainful employment. I can come and find you just about any time. It would be great fun to get together--how about a temple session at Provo, or Timpanogos? --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Marc A. Schindler wrote: > Let us know what you decide, and I'm sure I speak for the 3 of us when I > say we'll > do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the > highway you'll > be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and Cardston's about > a 45 > minute side trip each way (from the main highway south from Lethbridge > to > Montana). The trip from Provo to Cardston takes 12 hours if you only stop for gas and perhaps one or two very fast pottie breaks at road side rest areas. If you tempt fate and have a very fast car you can do it in 11 hours. If you are a young person in love and out of touch with reality you might even shave a half hour off that. If you are the type that stops to eat it will take you 13 or 14 hours. If you stop to smell the roses well plan for two days. There are a wide variety of routes with varying advantages and disadvantages. Basically, the best thing to do is take the I-15 from Provo to at least Wolf Creek Mt. Just north of Wolf Creek you can cut off for the shortest route to Canada (not necessarily the quickest). If you are interested in the quickest you carry on through Great Falls to the border. There are a couple of places to cut off when Cardston is your goal to save a few minutes, but the Coutts/Sweetgrass border crossing on I-15 is the only 24 hour port of entry in the vicinity and going there reduces the complication of possibly sleeping in a car in the Montana wilderness waiting for the border to open in the distant morning. After crossing the border at Coutts/Sweetgrass you get to Cardston either by taking highway #501 west after going north from the border about 12 miles. Or you can go about 20 miles north and cut off west to Raymond, then south to Cardston. But that's longer and the road isn't any better imho. If you stretched your day out on Wednesday to reach Cardston you would find beds and breakfast at the Matkin home. The next day it would be a 6 hour drive to Edmonton. I'm no expert on how long it takes to get from Edmonton to Prince Rupert. But it would probably take a monster day (we used to drive from here to Vancouver in a single day, when we didn't know any better and I suppose it would be a comparable journey). If it stretched out for two days you would get to Prince Rupert by Sat. night. Which builds a little slack into your itinerary in case you have a flat tire, get hit by food poisoning from eating tainted deep fried chicken gizzards at the Flying J in Rocker, Montana (just west of beautiful downtown Butte) get lost, encounter normal winter driving conditions, or stop to smell the roses. Tom > > "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this > > coming > > weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of > > Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to > > fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family > > automobile > > to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly > > down > > there and help her drive back. > > > > So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit > > the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to > > the > > ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. > > > > By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to > > Prince > > Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston > > and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and > > the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my > > trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. > > It > > sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. > > > > Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me > > or > > something? > > > > Your friend and brother, > > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > / > > > > > > -- > Marc A. Schindler > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he > will pick > himself up and continue on Winston Churchill > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > author > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors > employer, > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///
[ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
Knowing no one is perfect, I try to judge a person for all that they try to do, even if their choices end up occasionally being wrong. Truman chose not to continue the Korean War into China, because he realized a few things: First, they outnumbered us by hundreds of millions. Second, we had just finished one world war, and most Americans and our allies weren't ready for another. Third, we were there under UN authorization, and they had not authorized entering China. Fourth, as much as I like MacArthur, he disobeyed prime military orders about speaking out against the Commander in Chief, and the president's orders to stop, in the press. MacArthur pushed, and Truman didn't blink. Truman fired him because he was forced to do so. Had Truman left him in, he would have lost tons of political capital and integrity. We can attack individuals for the choices they made through hindsight, or we can realize that such decisions are complicated. Chaos theory states that a butterfly flapping its wings today in China can cause storms in America in two weeks. Do we condemn Truman for limiting the Korean war, yet then you condemn George W Bush for seeking to extend the war on terrorism to Iraq? Just where is the consistency? Do we condemn Reagan for ending the Cold War? Because there is no longer the two major powers balancing each other, it opened a vacuum for the terrorists to step into. Personally, I think I prefer having the soviets balancing our freedom, because at least we knew where they were and what to expect of them. They didn't blow themselves up in order to gain heaven. Or do we praise Reagan for his efforts in the short term, knowing that no one can know the long term effects, good or ill; nor can we know what effects would occur if we did nothing. If you were in an airplane and somehow had a valid prediction that your plane would hit another plane and go down in flames, what would you do? Would you turn the plane around? Yet, what if that is what causes the plane to crash? Do you do nothing, and hope that you don't end up in the wrong place at the wrong time? You see the conundrum? All we can see is the short term. Truman couldn't anticipate 50 years ago that we would go through such a long Cold War, or a period of freedom for those nations. Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new nation called Yugoslavia. How was he to know that he was combining ethnic groups that had been trying to kill each other for centuries, and that his carving of nations would be affecting us almost a century later? It is easy to condemn in hindsight. It is very hard to predict the long term outcomes of any choice. Now, with Jimmy Carter (I'm watching his Bio on PBS right now), we can condemn him on many things, because he was wishy washy. He didn't make a real choice, and dragged things down. In running for Governor, he played the racists and the black side of the issues. In his run for presidency, he said he was liberal, centrist, and conservative, all at once. Ford condemned his wishy washiness, and it continued through the entire presidency. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR:Truman fired MacArthur. It is unlikely that he did anything else right. All MacArthur wanted was permission to win the Korean War. He should have quit before Truman fired him. But Truman was a first class villain. My feelings about Truman are 180 degrees out of phase with those I feel for Washington, Reagan, etc. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] War against Islam
Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians are now being soft on Islamic fundamentalists, and are even condemning US efforts against terrorism.f Islamic groups are encouraging more to move into the nation, so they can become an even greater power there. Other nations in Europe are feeling the same effects of migration and conversion to Islam. Just look at who some of the more "popular" terrorists have been: converted Americans and Europeans. They are exporting their religion, which is not the terrible thing. The terrible thing is that they are also exporting their jihad. Muslim schools in England and Europe are now found to be teaching anti-Western sentiments. Islamic calendars with Sept 11 marked with burning airplanes were found in some of these schools after the 9/11 tragedy. Their Jihad is on the same level as the Christian Crusades. Those who went on the Crusades were promised everlasting life. They were told to use whatever means to obtain the holy city. And they did. They were ruthless, killing men, women and children. They even toppled Constantinople, an Orthodox Christian city! So it is with the Jihad today. It is a holy war. In holy war, or a Crusade, people will do whatever is necessary to obtain victory and heaven. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become "a giant threat" that "engulfs the nations?" That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Don't worry, John, they all look the same anyway ;-) But it is a nice, green campus -- kind of like a university. Stephen was a good host when I visited there. Sadly illness has prevented return trips, although my minister has been down since to speak at the Microsoft world government leaders conference, and normally I'm part of his retinue. I like Seattle (except for the traffic). I'm one of the few people who, during the all too brief time I lived there, actually enjoyed the climate. Stephen Beecroft wrote: > If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even > show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any > buildings... > > Stephen > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this > > coming > > weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of > > Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to > > > > fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family > > automobile > > to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly > > down > > there and help her drive back. > > > > So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit > > > > the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to > > the > > ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. > > > > By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to > > Prince > > Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston > > > > and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and > > > > the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my > > trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. > > It > > sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. > > > > Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me > > or > > something? > > > > Your friend and brother, > > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Stephen > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
The saints tend to magnify the doctrines and truths that the living prophet does. Pres Hinckley speaks little about fire and brimstone (except for abusive husbands and fathers), and speaks much on hope and joy. He is giving us the direction we should generally go, while not forgetting what his predecessors have taught. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Much of scripture is devoted to descriptions of this "fire and brimstone." I wonder why so few pay attention? Maybe the Lord made a mistake to include such negative, pessimistic stuff in the scriptures, do you think? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
It is kind of rough. If he leaves from Skagway, he takes the Alaska Highway to just across the BC/Yukon border, then head uth to Prince Rupert, hit the Coquahalla Highway to Vancouver -- it's like a big backwards "C", whereas if he goes through Grande Prairie AB (where I think Kilometre 0 is on the Alaska Highway), he goes east a bit on highway 43 to Valleyview, then SSE on Highway 40 to Gunn, where the highway turns into freeway. In fact, it just occurred to me that the next town after Gunn is Onoway, so he could see Mark quite easily. Highway 40 ends at the Yellowhead (highway 16) which goes east into Edmonton, splitting into 16 and 16A, which go on either side of Spruce Grove. From there it's highway 2 where the speed limit is 110 kph, the fastest in Canada, to Calgary and Fort Macleod. Then highway 3 on the Crowsnest Highway to Lethbridge. From there you can take a 45-minute detour to Cardston on highway 5, or you go SE from Lethbridge to the Coutts AB/Sweetgrass MT border crossing (which is in the process of being upgraded to freeway). From Sweetgrass it's I-15 all the way south to Salt Lake. Alternately, if he drives from Prince Rupert, it's the Yellowhead all the way through Jasper National Park to Edmonton, via Spruce Grove; Onoway is only a 10 minute side trip. That's the most direct way. Hey, John, you could see Bonnie. She lives in Prince George, which is on the Yellowhead, deep in the interior of B.C. (they're part of our temple district, in fact). The only way to visit Seattle is to take the ferry down the Inside Passage from Ketchikan (if there is one) or Prince Rupert, but that would take quite a while, I would think -- a few days, John? One helluva drive, I must say. And one I'd like to take some day. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Stephen Beecroft favored us with: > >If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even > >show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any > >buildings... > > I wish I could, Stephen. But there isn't any coastal route from the > Seattle area to Prince Rupert. It means driving hundreds of miles inland > to go north in BC only to drive hundreds of miles back to the coast. > > You mean you can't get in any of the building because they laid you off? > Shame on them. Now that you are no longer working for Microsoft, do you > still have the tenacious loyalty to them that you used to feel? > > How is the job hunt going? > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday > School and seminary classes every fourth year. This > four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by > Church members in their personal and family study. We > need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get > a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by > any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Edmonton to Prince Rupert depends a lot on the weather. Good weather -- probably 10 hours. Bad weather...well, who knows. The freeway from Edmonton (the Yellowhead) peters out around Hinton, as I recall, but it's still good highway through Jasper National Park and in B.C. BC speed limits are only 90 kph, though. Tom Matkin wrote: > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > Let us know what you decide, and I'm sure I speak for the 3 of us when I > > say we'll > > do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the > > highway you'll > > be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and Cardston's about > > a 45 > > minute side trip each way (from the main highway south from Lethbridge > > to > > Montana). > > The trip from Provo to Cardston takes 12 hours if you only stop for gas > and perhaps one or two very fast pottie breaks at road side rest areas. > If you tempt fate and have a very fast car you can do it in 11 hours. > If you are a young person in love and out of touch with reality you > might even shave a half hour off that. If you are the type that stops > to eat it will take you 13 or 14 hours. If you stop to smell the > roses well plan for two days. > > There are a wide variety of routes with varying advantages and > disadvantages. Basically, the best thing to do is take the I-15 from > Provo to at least Wolf Creek Mt. Just north of Wolf Creek you can cut > off for the shortest route to Canada (not necessarily the quickest). If > you are interested in the quickest you carry on through Great Falls to > the border. There are a couple of places to cut off when Cardston is > your goal to save a few minutes, but the Coutts/Sweetgrass border > crossing on I-15 is the only 24 hour port of entry in the vicinity and > going there reduces the complication of possibly sleeping in a car in > the Montana wilderness waiting for the border to open in the distant > morning. > > After crossing the border at Coutts/Sweetgrass you get to Cardston > either by taking highway #501 west after going north from the border > about 12 miles. Or you can go about 20 miles north and cut off west to > Raymond, then south to Cardston. But that's longer and the road isn't > any better imho. > > If you stretched your day out on Wednesday to reach Cardston you would > find beds and breakfast at the Matkin home. The next day it would be a > 6 hour drive to Edmonton. I'm no expert on how long it takes to get > from Edmonton to Prince Rupert. But it would probably take a monster day > (we used to drive from here to Vancouver in a single day, when we didn't > know any better and I suppose it would be a comparable journey). If it > stretched out for two days you would get to Prince Rupert by Sat. night. > Which builds a little slack into your itinerary in case you have a flat > tire, get hit by food poisoning from eating tainted deep fried chicken > gizzards at the Flying J in Rocker, Montana (just west of beautiful > downtown Butte) get lost, encounter normal winter driving conditions, or > stop to smell the roses. > > Tom > > > > "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > > > It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this > > > coming > > > weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of > > > Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to > > > fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family > > > automobile > > > to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly > > > down > > > there and help her drive back. > > > > > > So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit > > > the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to > > > the > > > ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. > > > > > > By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to > > > Prince > > > Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston > > > and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and > > > the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my > > > trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. > > > It > > > sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. > > > > > > Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me > > > or > > > something? > > > > > > Your friend and brother, > > > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > // > > > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > / > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Marc A. Schindler > > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > > Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he > > will pick > > himself up and continue on Wins
Re: [ZION] War against Islam
I agree that the Islamists are gaining power. Stacy. At 09:25 PM 11/11/2002 -0600, you wrote: Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians are now being soft on Islamic fundamentalists, and are even condemning US efforts against terrorism.f Islamic groups are encouraging more to move into the nation, so they can become an even greater power there. Other nations in Europe are feeling the same effects of migration and conversion to Islam. Just look at who some of the more "popular" terrorists have been: converted Americans and Europeans. They are exporting their religion, which is not the terrible thing. The terrible thing is that they are also exporting their jihad. Muslim schools in England and Europe are now found to be teaching anti-Western sentiments. Islamic calendars with Sept 11 marked with burning airplanes were found in some of these schools after the 9/11 tragedy. Their Jihad is on the same level as the Christian Crusades. Those who went on the Crusades were promised everlasting life. They were told to use whatever means to obtain the holy city. And they did. They were ruthless, killing men, women and children. They even toppled Constantinople, an Orthodox Christian city! So it is with the Jihad today. It is a holy war. In holy war, or a Crusade, people will do whatever is necessary to obtain victory and heaven. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become "a giant threat" that "engulfs the nations?" That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?
I understand that the Church does not endorse any political policy, except in cases where a moral issue is involved. There is a strong effort to avoid the suggestion that the platform of a particular political party represents or has the unilateral backing of the Church. This has been the policy of the Church as long as I have been aware. I do not recall any general Church statments from the First Presidency that have mentioned any particular concern or direction with regard to partisan politics. It has long been my impression that we should deliberate on important political matters independent of any partisan considerations. To fulfill this directive Church members are encouraged to be personally involved in local politics. That has been the extent of the counsel. Elder Jensen, a Church General Authority and Utah Democrat, in a statement to the media, reemphasized this point. He also shared a personal concern of "some of the brethren" about the possible unwanted ill effects stemming from lack of political diversity in the Utah political scene. He expressed the thought that it was unfortunate for Church members to have unjustified negative impressions of the Democratic party, since some good people choose to affiliate therein.h He did not, however, suggest in any way for members to support Democratic partisan policy, split themselves evenly between parties, join the Democrats, or vote for Democrat candidates, since that would have contradicted other points of his statement, and the long-standing general counsel. Elder Jensen did not elaborate about which "brethren" he was referring to, nor did he develop this thought much further, and I don't recall any other statements from the Church augmenting his brief reference. What I got from his statement was that it's just fine for Church members to be Democrats, if they so choose. And it's also fine if they choose something else. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Most of the concern about Utah Democrats wasting away to nothing is misplaced anyway. Democrats have always been well represented as a minority in state politics. There are regularly Democrat members of the Utah delegation to the US Congress, as with the current Sentator Matheson, and formerly Bill Orton. Democrats have been elected Governor of Utah and Mayor of SLC many times in the past. Scott Matheson and Ted Wilson are well-noted examples, men who served in thier political appointments with honor and distinction. My real animosity with Democrats is primarily directed toward a few unrepresentative radical liberals, who for some reason simply seem tend more to Democrat affliliation. I believe these people entertain ideas and ideologies that are a danger to my freedom and personal welfare. Perhaps California Senator Barbara Boxer is one of the more spectacular examples. But of course there are equally dangerous fringe Rebublicans, left and right, that also belong on the list of those who'd never be missed. And the most serious threat, from deceitful and evil power-mongering Gadiantons, probably defies any partisan poltical or philosophical characterization. I am sure that kind of secretive wickedness lives in niches all along the political spectrum. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Carl Sagan quote
I read this and thought I'd pass it on. (B (B"If science were explained to the average person in a way that is accessible (Band exciting, there would be no room for pseudoscience. But there is a kind (Bof Gresham's Law by which in popular culture the bad science drives out the (Bgood. And for this I think we have to blame, first, the scientific community (Bourselves for not doing a better job of popularizing science, and second, (Bthe media, which are in this respect almost uniformly dreadful. Every (Bnewspaper in America has a daily astrology column. How many have even a (Bweekly astronomy column? And I believe it is also the fault of the (Beducational system. We do not teach how to think. This is a very serious (Bfailure that may even, in a world rigged with 60,000 nuclear weapons, (Bcompromise the human future." (B (B- Carl Sagan (BThe Burden of Skepticism (B (BBill Lewis (BAKA Cousin Bill ([EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bhttp://www.topica.com/lists/Lewis_on_Liberty (BDo you want liberty in your lifetime? (Bhttp://www.freestateproject.org (B (B// (B/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// (B/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// (B/ (B (B==^ (BThis email was sent to: archive@jab.org (B (BEASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 (BOr send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BT O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! (Bhttp://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register (B==^
