[ZION] Canada: Bush is a Moron
Alright, Jim, Now We're going to have to take away your reporter's credentials. Just see the nice men in the dark suits at your front door. They'll handle everything And when they're done with you, we'll just see if Bush is still a moron. ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Jim C: Granted, Bush probably _is_ a moron. But it's astronomically bad form for a politician in a foreign government to say so in public. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
We won't get into what Richard Nixon called Pierre Trudeau. Even though many Canadian list members might find this the sole point of agreement between us and Mr. Nixon, mentioning the actual term would be against the charter. Jim Cobabe wrote: > Well, it's an embarrasment, admittedly. When a politician makes such a > flagrantly _honest_ public expression of sentiment, particularly in > front of a critical audience, it's always hard for them to live it down. > > Canadians needn't feel so bad. It isn't as though US politicians in the > analogous political office have never humiliated themselves in public. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
Well, it's an embarrasment, admittedly. When a politician makes such a flagrantly _honest_ public expression of sentiment, particularly in front of a critical audience, it's always hard for them to live it down. Canadians needn't feel so bad. It isn't as though US politicians in the analogous political office have never humiliated themselves in public. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
Stephen Beecroft wrote: --- You don't think she qualifies as "one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government"? You don't think she is "a person engaged in party politics as a profession"? I think she very clearly qualifies under at least those two definitions. --- Yes, another tautology. Clearly she would considered a politician if she was involved in US politics. It would be laughable to argue that Ari Fleisher is not a politician. But admittedly, everything in Canada is strange and wonderful, unknowable by any but the most intrepid scientist, and with their primitive system of national government, the origins of which are lost in antiquity, it is feasible that other formal categorizations are more appropriate. Perhaps those engaging in Canadian politics are not necessarily politicians. Perhaps, for example, this woman might serve as a wholly apolitical appointee to the Royal House--in some office like the Royal Hereditary Grand Diaperer, or the King's Royal Food Taster. I can well imagine such a possibility. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
Jim Cobabe wrote: > Granted, Bush probably _is_ a moron. But it's astronomically bad form > for a politician in a foreign government to say so in public. > a. Francie Ducros is not a politician; and b. She did not say it in public. It was in the course of a private conversation with someone, a conversation which was overheard by a reporter. The Toronto Star article was quite clear on both counts. Why do some people insist on reading more into it? If it makes you feel any good, I can guarantee, from my own experience in the civil service of a Westminster-style government, that her career is now toast. She'll be lucky to get a job as a PR hack for a dot-com. (see my post of the Don Martin column) > > Besides, Canada and the US are supposed to be collaborating in the "war > on terror(TM)", and this is just a horrifying breach of international > security. What if Saddam reads this political comment and finally > catches on to the truth about Bush's intellectually challenged status? > "Collaborating" means, of course, that we do your bidding. We always do, and what thanks do we get? "Horrifying breach of international security?" You'd think we'd bugged the Oval Office and blabbed what we heard to Saddam. Get a grip, folks! Think: is Canada even possible of committing even a slightly pesky breach of international security, let alone a horrifying one? Okay, I know you're probably being facetious. But then we all know that the reason we're going to war with Iraq and not Pakistan is that no hotel in Islamabad has a mosaic in the lobby that pictures the king's papa, and on which people are forced to tread in an immature attempt at insult. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Jim- > > Canadian politician calls President Bush a moron. > > -Marc- > > It wasn't a politician, it was an aide, > > Huh? That's like saying, "It wasn't an animal, it was a housefly." Of > course she is a politician. Do you mean that she is not an elected > official? That much is clear, but really doesn't impact Jim's point. > No, it's not. It's like saying, "It wasn't an animal, it was a vegetable." A civil servant is not a politician. > > > and it was in a private conversation at a social event, > > All the more reason to keep one's mouth shut instead of spewing such > bile. How humiliating for her, and deservedly so. > Indeed. But my point was merely to point out that it wasn't a politician who said this. That it has become such an issue in the U.S. surprises me. It's we Canuckistanis who are supposed to be the thin-skinned ones ;-) > > > *No politician* said this -- Ducros hasn't been elected to > > anything, she's just Chrétien's communications director. > > I don't think "politician" and "elected official" are necessarily > synonymous, which is apparently your understanding. So you think that > Colin Powell is not a politician? George Stephanopolous was not a > politician? I disagree. > Fine. But they aren't/weren't politicians. If you have an idiosyncratic definition that's fine by me. But see above for the point of the issue. You're straining at a gnat. Leave that to us Canuckleheads, we've had more experience at it and do it with more theatricality. > > Stephen > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > OK. And? A civil servant fits none of these definitions. > > You don't think she qualifies as "one actively engaged in conducting the > business of a government"? You don't think she is "a person engaged in > party politics as a profession"? I think she very clearly qualifies > under at least those two definitions. > First of all, I don't think that hunting through dictionaries until you find a definition you like proves anything, other than one's obsession with something. And secondly, no, I don't think she's actively engaged in conducting the business of a government. She works *for* the government, she is not *part* of the government. I realize that under the Jacksonian system of "to the victor goes the spoils" model of civil service, you might blur the line, but under the Westminster system the line is much clearer. And since we're talking about a Canadian civil servant, you're bound by our definition on this one. If you insist on trying to apply your idiosyncratic definition, I can only assume you are reading more into this than it deserves, in which case, as I've already suggested, leave that to the experts ;-) > > Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
Granted, Bush probably _is_ a moron. But it's astronomically bad form for a politician in a foreign government to say so in public. Besides, Canada and the US are supposed to be collaborating in the "war on terror(TM)", and this is just a horrifying breach of international security. What if Saddam reads this political comment and finally catches on to the truth about Bush's intellectually challenged status? --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
-Marc- > OK. And? A civil servant fits none of these definitions. You don't think she qualifies as "one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government"? You don't think she is "a person engaged in party politics as a profession"? I think she very clearly qualifies under at least those two definitions. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
-Jim- > Canadian politician calls President Bush a moron. -Marc- > It wasn't a politician, it was an aide, Huh? That's like saying, "It wasn't an animal, it was a housefly." Of course she is a politician. Do you mean that she is not an elected official? That much is clear, but really doesn't impact Jim's point. > and it was in a private conversation at a social event, All the more reason to keep one's mouth shut instead of spewing such bile. How humiliating for her, and deservedly so. > *No politician* said this -- Ducros hasn't been elected to > anything, she's just Chrétien's communications director. I don't think "politician" and "elected official" are necessarily synonymous, which is apparently your understanding. So you think that Colin Powell is not a politician? George Stephanopolous was not a politician? I disagree. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
OK. And? A civil servant fits none of these definitions. Just admit you misread the article. Jim Cobabe wrote: > One entry found for politician. > > > Main Entry: pol·i·ti·cian > Pronunciation: "pä-l&-'ti-sh&n > Function: noun > Date: 1589 > > 1 : a person experienced in the art or science of government; especially > : one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government > > 2 a : a person engaged in party politics as a profession > b : a person primarily interested in political office for selfish or > other narrow usually short-sighted reasons > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
One entry found for politician. Main Entry: pol·i·ti·cian Pronunciation: "pä-l&-'ti-sh&n Function: noun Date: 1589 1 : a person experienced in the art or science of government; especially : one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government 2 a : a person engaged in party politics as a profession b : a person primarily interested in political office for selfish or other narrow usually short-sighted reasons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
I've already taken Jim to task for confusing an aide with a politician, so I won't dwell on it -- the Toronto Star article appears accurate and fair -- but here's some more commentary on what it means for the *aide*, from Southam columnist Don Martin: Cheap shot a costly error Don Martin, Calgary Herald, 23/11/02 'Moron' comment may bring babble chill to Parliament Hill OTTAWA / Theres a netherworld between Ottawa journalists and federal government officials where the rules of engagement in doing the devils work are flexible, negotiable and often personal. Francie Ducros is now a dead flak talking because the rules at the time of her moron comment were fuzzy, the confidentiality agreement with one party to the conversation did not apply to others within earshot and shes disliked by more media than is usual for a veteran spin doctor. The prime ministers 40-year-old spokeswoman was blurting away Wednesday in Prague, allegedly on an off-the-record basis to a CBC reporter following a formal background briefing, when her caustic assessment of U.S. President George W. Bush as a moron was overhead by surrounding reporters. Unguarded candour Those journalists were still operating under the rules of a NATO background briefing, one of those wretchedly useless thumbsuckers that provided carefully filtered insight into the prime ministers conduct courtesy of unidentified officials which, in Chretiens case, is almost always Francie Ducros. What I suspect happened next is one of those difficult dilemmas many reporters find themselves trapped in when a contact says something in a moment of unguarded candour thats so incredibly stupid, it could end their career. The journalist must make a life-or-death call: Is the cost of killing the contact for short-term story glory greater than ignoring the slip-up in exchange for long-term favourable considerations? In the case of Ducros, who will depart the Ottawa press scene along with Jean Chretien and never get within a light year of any influential position under Paul Martins reign, that imminent expiry date ensured her slip of the tongue was a death sentence. Hers became the cheap shot heard round the world. Now, speaking as someone who has had the odd off-the-record lunch with Ducros, I find her interesting because shes so utterly and blindly loyal to the prime minister; our chats are like having someone read you all Chretiens private talking points. If nothing else, and nothing is usually all she leaks, Ducros provides fresh insight into Chretiens wrongdoing denial strategies. But shes talked herself into big trouble on this one, and many a spin doctor feels her pain. No experienced communications person in the country hasnt experienced what Francie is living through now. Its like a cold rush of s*** to the heart, quips former Alliance communications director Phil von Finckenstein. But if you dont want it out there, dont say it. Off the record means on the record. I disagree to a point. The Ducros comment would likely have passed without consequence had it been shared over the sixth round of vodka in a Prague bar, or as an offhanded comment uttered while walking down a hotel hallway. But to make such an inflammatory observation in the same briefing room where shed handed out Prague pablum to news-starved journalists moments before, well, thats, um, moronic. And, if you must shoot from the lip before your brain is fully loaded, one of the last reporters youd want within hearing range was standing beside her. Robert Fife, the Southam News / National Post bureau chief in Ottawa (who is NOT my boss, for the record), has been described as a journalist who could pick up two sticks on the street and rub them together into a front page headline. Hes particularly deadly on the campaign trail, to the point where rival journalists apprehensively storm hotel newsstands first thing in the morning to see what story angle theyve missed. In Prague, Fife was engaging in a Fife specialty taking no prisoners as he took aim at a story he knew had front page ink written all over it. Babble chill But what will happen as a result of this story could change the way Parliament Hills netherworld is governed. Babble chill will enter into relationships where some of the best information flowed to the public without attribution. The prime minister said as much at his final news conference. We dont live in as civilized a world as we used to, where private conversations are private. Thats unfortunate. The prime minister has shared some fascinating and useful insights with me during two interviews in his office with the caveat it was deep background. It was much the same when I worked in Alberta, where important information usually flowed freely with jugs of five per cent amber truth serum. Here in Ottawa, the rules will change in a Ducros-spun world where she meant it when she said it and didnt when she read
Re: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
Jim Cobabe wrote: > >"http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035774729008&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154"; > > Canadian politician calls President Bush a moron. > It wasn't a politician, it was an aide, and it was in a private conversation at a social event, which was overhead by another reporter -- and it was the 2nd reporter who reported on it. Jason Kenney is simply using this issue as a way of promoting his own party, and as his party is the official opposition, he's just doing his job. But it's a tempest in a teapot. *No politician* said this -- Ducros hasn't been elected to anything, she's just Chrétien's communications director. > > Chrétien's decision to keep Ducros quickly came under fire back in > Ottawa. > > "He should have accepted her resignation, perhaps with regret, perhaps > understanding that people make mistakes," Canadian Alliance MP Jason > Kenney said. "Senior officials should be held accountable for those > mistakes." > > Kenney suggested Ducros' remarks reflect a pattern in the Chrétien > government, "a consistent attitude of anti-Americanism which has hurt > our relationship on softwood lumber, on agriculture ... It doesn't help > us in getting access to the decision-makers in the White House and in > Washington." > > Conservative Leader Joe Clark said Chrétien should have accepted the > resignation. "Ms. Ducros has done the honourable thing; so should the > prime minister." > > --- > Jim Cobabe > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://members.tripod.com/~jcobabe > > When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more > nor less. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron
"http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035774729008&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154"; Canadian politician calls President Bush a moron. Chrétien's decision to keep Ducros quickly came under fire back in Ottawa. "He should have accepted her resignation, perhaps with regret, perhaps understanding that people make mistakes," Canadian Alliance MP Jason Kenney said. "Senior officials should be held accountable for those mistakes." Kenney suggested Ducros' remarks reflect a pattern in the Chrétien government, "a consistent attitude of anti-Americanism which has hurt our relationship on softwood lumber, on agriculture ... It doesn't help us in getting access to the decision-makers in the White House and in Washington." Conservative Leader Joe Clark said Chrétien should have accepted the resignation. "Ms. Ducros has done the honourable thing; so should the prime minister." --- Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.tripod.com/~jcobabe When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
