Maoke,

Please see in line.

Le 2012-04-03 à 11:21, Maoke a écrit :

> dear Remi, 
> 
> 1. for this issue, you are in misunderstanding. 
> 
> i checked the RFC6145 logic and behavior, very carefully, with the PTB < 1280 
> issue. there is no two behaviors but only one behavior supporting independent 
> working of the IPv4-to-IPv6 and the IPv6-to-IPv4 translators. there is no 
> question on which one to choose in the MAP-T draft.

Although I tried, I cannot share your interpretation:
- sec 6 introduces a problem due to some Host/FWs that don't support IPv6 
PTB<1280 (although they should)
- Two approaches are proposed.
- The second one looses the IPv4 MTU information if < 1280 (creating a problem 
for PMTU discovery in IPv4)
- The first one isn't described, but consists in avoiding the problem, 
apparently by ensuring that all host/FWs support PTB<1280. Implicitly, this can 
be understood as no replacement of <1280 by = 1280.

Anything missed?


> (i think you may accept that a "if...else..." logic does not mean option). 
> 
> 2. it is necessary to verify, in practice, if the feature that IPv6 is 
> carrying ICMPv4 message is secure. it is new to the IP/ICMP architecture. 

If you have something in mind, please detail.
AFAIK, it isn't difficult in a ISP domain to make sure IPv6 packets are 
transparently transmitted between BRs and CEs, even if their next header is 1 
(that of ICMPv4).

> 
> 3. please refer to RFC6145 Sec 6 for the details (but maybe other sections 
> are also needed to read). 

See 1. above.
 

> i think your objection to RFC6145 and MAP-T here is invalid. 

Not convinced by your comment.


Besides, even if it would be the case, the mail to which I was answering below 
was proposing to always change DF=1 into DF=0, instead of just in the 
fragmented-pcket case.
To me, this illustrates that MAP-t specification isn't so easy to understand 
where it deals with details of ICMP v4/v6 translations.
Criticisms addressed to 4rd-U should be more carefully studied before being 
made.

Regards,
RD



> 
> regards,
> maoke
> 
> 2012/4/3 Rémi Després <[email protected]>
> Hi, Guoliang,
> 
> Interesting enough, the example you give illustrates that MAP-T needs to 
> remain experimental, more than any other solution.
> 
> 1.
> RFC6145 doesn't say that a PTB<1280 WILL BE changed to PTB=1280. It specifies 
> two behaviors, one that does this, and one that doesn't. Which one to choose 
> isn't AFAIK specified in the MAP-T draft.
> 
> 2.
> With 4rd-U, an ICMPv4 PTB<1280 always goes to its destination unchanged. This 
> is exactly what is necessary for PMTU discovery to work.
> 
> 3.
> Now, you suggest to replace DF=1 by DF=0 in BRs. This differs AFAIK from 
> RFC6145, and therefore from MAP-T.
> 
> When we have a detailed report on which parts of MAP-T have been validated, 
> with which options of RFC6145, it will be easier to analyze scenarios like 
> the one you propose.
> 
> 
> In any case, thanks for providing one more evidence that the MAP-T 
> specification isn't as clear as claimed to all those who support it, and in 
> particular to some also criticize 4rd-U with invalid arguments.
> 
> Regards,
> RD
> 
> 
> Le 2012-04-03 à 05:26, 韩国梁 a écrit :
> 
>> +1.
>>  
>> As a follower of MAP team, I participated much in developing and deploying 
>> double-translation in CERNET. As far as I am concerned, in the translation 
>> scenario,
>> 4rd-U only solved some corner cases but missed some other cases 
>> simultaneously.
>>  
>> As an example, I suppose one fragmentation case as following:
>>  
>> (IPv4 customer network)--CE---(IPv6 access network)--BR(Core 
>> Translator)--(IPv4 network)---IPv4 host
>>  
>> The minumum MTU of IPv6 access network is 1400, and the minimum MTU of IPv4 
>> network on the right side is 800. Now an IPv4 host on the left side sends a 
>> packet 
>> with length set to 1200 and MTU set to 1, to the IPv4 host in the right 
>> side. The packet 
>> could traverse the IPv6 access network, but will be blocked in the IPv4 
>> network.

(*)
>> In this case, BR(Core Translator) must set DF to 0 when translating from 
>> IPv6 back to IPv4,
>> instead of preserving the original IPv4 DF bit.

>>  
>> In fact, according to RFC6145, if BR(Core Translator) receives an ICMP 
>> Packet Too Big packet 
>> whose indicating MTU is less than 1280 bytes, it will change it to 1280. So 
>> if the BR preserve
>> the DF bit, the sender will always believe the path MTU is 1280, which will 
>> certainly lead to 
>> a black hole.
>>  
>> This is only one deployment problem, and we don't know how many issues will 
>> be encountered
>> in the future. So my point is that 4rd-U still needs examination in the 
>> actual deployment, and 
>> it's a bit early to propose it as an Informational/Standards Track Document.
>>  
>> The mail sent yesterday seemed to encounter some problems. So if you see 
>> this mail twice, sorry for that. 
>>  
>> regards, 
>> Guoliang
> 

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