I remember being a Presbyterian in the Atlanta suburbs in early 80's. Not that there was in-fighting, but someone observed there was a whole congregation of Baptists for each on us in our congregation. I believe the relative size of the two industries would allow the larger plumbing industry who is already running PEX around these SFD's to more readily accommodate the increased workload than our much smaller industry.
Sure, we know how to design systems, many of us can tackle the esoteric. But that may not be an advantage- I know of many jobs where we bid what it takes, the others bid what's on the dwgs incorrectly. Our ability to design means we don't take the simplistic method of design when maybe that's all that matters. We calc 13D systems instead of counting fittings and total pipe lengths. Sure, there's a shortcut available to us. But sometimes we loop, and I guess we just can't give up on doing what we think is the "proper" level of attention to detail- so our design cost is higher than a plumber would have taking a piece of cra$ and installing it- it still gets done and accepted and will save a life- or we're 99% sure it will. The 13d committee has steadfastly maintained they want cheap and effective 13d systems to save lives, and if you don't need an alarm to do so (since there are SDs) then they aren't a requirement. I'd install a local bell just because its cheap anyway, but that's our level of minimum, just as we corporately do some things to a higher than required level. Call it legal entanglement insurance :) that we dont mind paying. If the plumbers are looking at installing some heads and some additional footage of PEX, it isn't that big a deal. We're looking at 350 new customers whereas they're already on site. Doubt we'll be able to touch em. No matter what, and I never thought I'd be typing this, the increase in life safety will be quantum whether we do it or the plumbers do it. Certainly there are plumbers who work to a higher level of quality than some, I hope not many, sprinkler firms. glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: ICC Version of 13d Well Steve let's start with some respectful disagreement and I'm sorry this got long but I believe it needs to be said. For those in the battle feel free to plagiarize at will in other forums. You said "Does anyone on this forum really think that we - the entire unified industry - can possibly address all of the new work that will be created if IRC adopts mandatory sprinklers for one and two family homes?" Is your assumption the plumbers can? That's the prevailing wisdom which in several forums I have debunked; we need plumbers because the sprinkler industry can't man it. B.S. - when I look around I don't see a bunch of plumbers sitting around getting paid to do nothing. Or at least no more of a rate than sprinkler fitters. If it's going to take X man-hours it's X man-hours no matter what trade you are going to put it in. Both industries have about the staff needed for the work available, save for current temporary work slow down. Both industries need to add the same amount of bodies. The sprinkler industry is better able to man this in that they already have the infrastructure available. We have plotters, we do design, most of us can spell sprinkler, this is normal for us etc. How many plumbers do design to the same level we do? Don't suggest the plumbing engineers can fill this void. You know what the sprinkler industry can do with most engineers. Can plumbers learn, at least as well as sprinkler guys but they are starting behind. You said "Folks, there are people in our industry right now bidding tract-sized SFD's at $3-4 per s.f. AND HIGHER. Homebuilders are screaming bloody murder nationwide;" And I am screaming bloody murder about the cost of my truck, fuel, my couch, $200 bucks to take my family skiing - what an outrage in the middle of the Great Plains on a 500' hill. It's all just a big scam by the industrial-military complex to take our money to benefit the political class. Glad I don't have any friends or they would shoot me for saying that. Don't take offense you didn't bring up the wacko conspiracy theory. I inserted that hyperbole for effect. It's simple supply and demand economics, if $3-4 is way high and the sprinkler company is making a huge profit there is always some idiot willing to do it for $2.50 if that is true break even (and around here there is still some one at $2.30). If the costs are $3-4 well then that is the cost. In business the cost is what you can get for it. It's kept in check by others that provided the same service. God Bless America. I have discussed pricing in detail with AHJ's making the same argument. When you break it down to the cost of a fitting and an hour of labor and taxes, permits and all the other stuff no one has yet to point out an area of savings. The reason home builders scream about price is the margin they tack on. They can add 20% to add a hot tub and the owner doesn't blink. Add 5% to the sprinkler the owner already doesn't what and it's a crisis. The home builders can't make money off sprinklers. THAT'S why they are screaming. You said "Our industry claims to want mandatory residential sprinkler codes but we haven't done squat about building our infrastructure, growing our human and technological resources or preparing for a wave of new business that could double the size of our industry in some markets OVERNIGHT." Well how exactly should we do this. This is an unfair charge. This is a business first. It has to be or you will be on the unemployment line right quick. You are in business - do you pay someone to do nothing because your work load will increase when SFH become sprinklered. Think of the design work you will do, think of the investigations you will do from bad designs, to bad installations, to breaks and buildings that burn down with sprinklers in them. And let's take it back to the plumbers - what have they done to prepare? I bet as much as we've done, if not less. You tell me when and I'll be ready. Even if it passes this cycle it'll be a few years before it's adopted and actually required. And that assumes the same fights won't occur at the local adoption level. You can put anything you want in a code and it don't mean squat until some legal body turns it into law. You said" Homebuilders control a 1/3 stake in the IRC, if I'm not mistaken. The most pragmatic among them realize that if it's not this cycle, it will likely be next cycle, but sprinklers in SFD's are inevitable. So (unlike our community) they're getting their wagons into a preemptive circle." Really, the way I see it is our wagons are much better aligned or we wouldn't be a cycle or two from SFH in the codes. Their circle is broken, it got the first opening in 1999 (and I'm proud to say I was there with the code change proposal to IFC for all buildings with an R occupancy) and they are scrambling to close ranks but it ain't working. Could you have imagined in the 80's we'd ever be this close? If you're honest I think you'd say no. I would have never imagined this day. And finally just because things get into the codes and new standards are being proposed has nothing to do with who does the work. The States have licensing or other methods (plan review) to help make sure only qualified people are designing and installing these. Perhaps this is naïve on my part. It won't matter if it's 13D, IRC, hydraulically calc'ed or pipe schedule. First if it save lives and is installed in accordance with the standard I don't care what you call the guy installing it. And second yes I hope he works for me. Two last things - sorry for going on a bit and a genuine thank you for getting me riled up this morning. Now I'm primed to go kick some ***. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 4:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: ICC Version of 13d All: About 8 or 9 years ago, a former fire chief turned residential sprinkler advocate coined the Phrase, "The plumbers are coming!" He and I joked back then about the "Chicken Little" parable and he was predictably ridiculed and criticized - sometimes not so quietly - in some corners of the fire sprinkler community. But Pat Coughlin was right; starting with the introduction of the Wirsbo pre-engineered MP system, there has been steady movement in the cycling of 13D and the adopted Plumbing and Residential Codes toward homogenizing plumbing and residential sprinkler systems. Pat was a founder and Executive Director of both the Residential Fire Sprinkler Institute an Operation Life Safety, as well as FPC's Man of The Year in 2000, I think. Pat introduced me to the management of Wirsbo at the launch of their AquaSafe system and I have been watching the evolution of the residential market with keen interest ever since. And over the course of this period of time, with so many changes in product technologies, changes in U.L. listings, unbelievable growth in the market, adoption of new model codes, etc., there has been one rock-steady and unchanging constant. That being the institutionalized denial of these changes by many (most?) in the sprinkler industry. Does anyone on this forum really think that we - the entire unified industry - can possibly address all of the new work that will be created if IRC adopts mandatory sprinklers for one and two family homes? Folks, there are people in our industry right now bidding tract-sized SFD's at $3-4 per s.f. AND HIGHER. Homebuilders are screaming bloody murder nationwide; between the cost of 1" meters and the apparent lack of interested bidders, they can't seem to buy residential sprinklers anywhere near the $1-2 per s.f. we've been saying for years they should pay. Our industry claims to want mandatory residential sprinkler codes but we haven't done squat about building our infrastructure, growing our human and technological resources or preparing for a wave of new business that could double the size of our industry in some markets OVERNIGHT. And because we haven't done a damned thing, the market should wait around for us to pull our heads out of the sand? No, the market is going to do what all free enterprise markets have done throughout the history of this country: it's going to follow the path of least resistance. Does anyone think that these large residential plumbing and HVAC contractors are $150 million companies by accident? Does anyone reading this think that SFD systems are so complicated that we're all really glad they made us take calculus in high school and college? Any particular reason why a 13D design has never been confused with a booster rocket? Yeah - 'cause it AIN'T. Homebuilders control a 1/3 stake in the IRC, if I'm not mistaken. The most pragmatic among them realize that if it's not this cycle, it will likely be next cycle, but sprinklers in SFD's are inevitable. So (unlike our community) they're getting their wagons into a preemptive circle. And I've got some really bad news for those who are organically opposed to the notion that anyone but a dedicated sprinkie can/should be the installer of record for a residential sprinkler system. Not only are there multi-purpose design guidelines proposed in the IRC, but I encourage everyone to check out 13D, Log #50 (Item 54) of the current residential cycle. It's a prescriptive (i.e. pipe scheduled) table design method for sprinkler systems in SFD's and the committee's vote in ROP was a resounding "accept". The tables recommended for adoption are the same ones proposed for and used to substantiate the IRC design basis, and would further harmonize the IRC, IPC and 13D. Note to self: The Plumbers are coming ... and they have dollar-signs in their eyes. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
