Chris: I'm glad you got fired up; I also think you raise some very good points that I'd like to speak to.
WRT to plumbers, no - I don't think they'll pick up all the slack. But there has been a presumption on our industry that plumbing contractors will send untrained idiots into the field and simply booger up sprinkler installations as a matter of practice. I mean, we have plenty of sprinkies that do that, so it's a fair assumption. What I'm trying to say is that there are large regional mechanical contracting concerns that grew to their level of size and success by good, solid business management and planning, which includes comprehensive training and continuing education. Training installation technicians to do 13D installations will be a piece of cake for many of these companies and I know for a fact that several are already moving into the business because we have professional relationships with at least a couple of them. But your presumption that they don't have adequate plotters or design techs is a red herring. How long do you think it will take a $50-200 million per year company to acquire those human and technological resources? A month or three to buy and hire, and 12 months max (absolute max) to train designers in 13D. This is NOT rocket science!!! The notion that all of the new work will or should be our domain exclusively is naïve and inaccurate. I'm with you on the issue of "market value". What I'm trying to underscore (and didn't articulate it too well) is that we have been lobbying fire officials, city councils, municipalities, state agencies, etc., etc. for years regarding residential sprinkler ordinances. And using the $1-$2 to substantiate the affordability argument; we lose credibility when the market won't support those claims and generally speaking it's only in the busiest and most competitive markets (Central and Southern California, for example) that we see "competitive" pricing. I'll tell you right now that in areas served by sprinkies charging $4 and up, the plumbers are going to take up ALL the slack Chris, because that's what the homebuilders (i.e. CLIENTS) are going to want them to do. That would be the demand side of supply & demand. And I agree that homebuilders are often disingenuous regarding mark-ups and actual delivered costs, but when a home is marketable (and profitable) at $210,000 it looks a lot more expensive at $225,000. Regarding infrastructure, you ask how we should do it? How many contractors are members of either AFSA or NFSA? Probably fewer than 20% nationwide. How many send their designers to training programs? Probably fewer than 10%. What percentage of open-shop contractors nationwide utilize an apprenticeship program such as AFSA's? I wouldn't wager a specific guess, but is it even 5%? Yeah, we all have businesses to run Chris, and so do the plumbing shops. And very few of us in the sprinkler industry (myself included) have a business background - we're technicians first. The Accidental Business Owner - that'll be the title of my novel. I don't know if you'll agree or not, but I'm pretty sure that the plumbing contractors who serve the large homebuilders are generally better organized businesses than the sprinkler contractors who serve the same clients. They invest millions in partnered customer service programs with the homebuilders; they commit human and physical resources to their service departments, they create and maintain follow up care and satisfaction programs. They sign long-term deals with the homebuilders in some cases to warrant their installations beyond the basic 1 year term that we all take for granted. And homebuilders (at least in the West) have shown a preference for buying out residential sprinklers from their existing suppliers - one less member on the team to administrate, doncha know. Especially if their plumber is willing to hit that number in the range of $1-$2 per s.f. As for the wagons in a circle analogy, let me dip into my collection of parables before we get too comfy patting ourselves on the back for a job well done. Let's say you come up with a unique technology that adds safety and value to housing and costs less to install than floor covering (or so it is said). And let's say that product technology has ZERO competition for ... oh I dunno, 25 years. And the corporation that owns said technology hires you as corporate director of sales and marketing for said product, gives you piece of blank paper and the marching orders to "go for it". No conditions or restrictions. And let's say that after 25 years you have leveled off at 1-2% market penetration - with ZERO competition. Think you'd still be employed as the corporate director of sales and marketing? The home builders have effectively kept our industry repressed and off balance, in great part due to the fact that we can't fulfill the promises we make at the point of sale. How many cities and counties have passed and then rescinded sprinkler ordinances? I don't know the answer, but it's an unfortunately high number (we have at least 3 jurisdictions here in San Diego County alone). The current IRC proposals are being driven by a coalition of industry types, but the main force is from fire service. I am exceptionally proud of what I do for a living and wouldn't change one thing about my career track (well, maybe one but we won't go there) and I can sense your pride as well in the post you sent this morning. But let's not take credit where it isn't due and at the risk of seeming hypercritical, I don't think we're anywhere near where we need to be in order to move up to the next phase of this very important time in the history of our trade. Steve -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: ICC Version of 13d Well Steve let's start with some respectful disagreement and I'm sorry this got long but I believe it needs to be said. For those in the battle feel free to plagiarize at will in other forums. You said "Does anyone on this forum really think that we - the entire unified industry - can possibly address all of the new work that will be created if IRC adopts mandatory sprinklers for one and two family homes?" Is your assumption the plumbers can? That's the prevailing wisdom which in several forums I have debunked; we need plumbers because the sprinkler industry can't man it. B.S. - when I look around I don't see a bunch of plumbers sitting around getting paid to do nothing. Or at least no more of a rate than sprinkler fitters. If it's going to take X man-hours it's X man-hours no matter what trade you are going to put it in. Both industries have about the staff needed for the work available, save for current temporary work slow down. Both industries need to add the same amount of bodies. The sprinkler industry is better able to man this in that they already have the infrastructure available. We have plotters, we do design, most of us can spell sprinkler, this is normal for us etc. How many plumbers do design to the same level we do? Don't suggest the plumbing engineers can fill this void. You know what the sprinkler industry can do with most engineers. Can plumbers learn, at least as well as sprinkler guys but they are starting behind. You said "Folks, there are people in our industry right now bidding tract-sized SFD's at $3-4 per s.f. AND HIGHER. Homebuilders are screaming bloody murder nationwide;" And I am screaming bloody murder about the cost of my truck, fuel, my couch, $200 bucks to take my family skiing - what an outrage in the middle of the Great Plains on a 500' hill. It's all just a big scam by the industrial-military complex to take our money to benefit the political class. Glad I don't have any friends or they would shoot me for saying that. Don't take offense you didn't bring up the wacko conspiracy theory. I inserted that hyperbole for effect. It's simple supply and demand economics, if $3-4 is way high and the sprinkler company is making a huge profit there is always some idiot willing to do it for $2.50 if that is true break even (and around here there is still some one at $2.30). If the costs are $3-4 well then that is the cost. In business the cost is what you can get for it. It's kept in check by others that provided the same service. God Bless America. I have discussed pricing in detail with AHJ's making the same argument. When you break it down to the cost of a fitting and an hour of labor and taxes, permits and all the other stuff no one has yet to point out an area of savings. The reason home builders scream about price is the margin they tack on. They can add 20% to add a hot tub and the owner doesn't blink. Add 5% to the sprinkler the owner already doesn't what and it's a crisis. The home builders can't make money off sprinklers. THAT'S why they are screaming. You said "Our industry claims to want mandatory residential sprinkler codes but we haven't done squat about building our infrastructure, growing our human and technological resources or preparing for a wave of new business that could double the size of our industry in some markets OVERNIGHT." Well how exactly should we do this. This is an unfair charge. This is a business first. It has to be or you will be on the unemployment line right quick. You are in business - do you pay someone to do nothing because your work load will increase when SFH become sprinklered. Think of the design work you will do, think of the investigations you will do from bad designs, to bad installations, to breaks and buildings that burn down with sprinklers in them. And let's take it back to the plumbers - what have they done to prepare? I bet as much as we've done, if not less. You tell me when and I'll be ready. Even if it passes this cycle it'll be a few years before it's adopted and actually required. And that assumes the same fights won't occur at the local adoption level. You can put anything you want in a code and it don't mean squat until some legal body turns it into law. You said" Homebuilders control a 1/3 stake in the IRC, if I'm not mistaken. The most pragmatic among them realize that if it's not this cycle, it will likely be next cycle, but sprinklers in SFD's are inevitable. So (unlike our community) they're getting their wagons into a preemptive circle." Really, the way I see it is our wagons are much better aligned or we wouldn't be a cycle or two from SFH in the codes. Their circle is broken, it got the first opening in 1999 (and I'm proud to say I was there with the code change proposal to IFC for all buildings with an R occupancy) and they are scrambling to close ranks but it ain't working. Could you have imagined in the 80's we'd ever be this close? If you're honest I think you'd say no. I would have never imagined this day. And finally just because things get into the codes and new standards are being proposed has nothing to do with who does the work. The States have licensing or other methods (plan review) to help make sure only qualified people are designing and installing these. Perhaps this is naïve on my part. It won't matter if it's 13D, IRC, hydraulically calc'ed or pipe schedule. First if it save lives and is installed in accordance with the standard I don't care what you call the guy installing it. And second yes I hope he works for me. Two last things - sorry for going on a bit and a genuine thank you for getting me riled up this morning. Now I'm primed to go kick some ***. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
