Ryan, Nothing personal, huh?
I guess you don't have any ancestors who walked the Trail of Death or the Trail of Tears or have relatives who are members of the Lost Nation as a result of domestic policies of tyranny. And those walking the continent today are supposed to feel as if we've benefitted because what? Because the national record of births was forever altered from its natural course at the point of a sword or in advance of flying lead? So your or my life today is more important than those lives that were never permitted to be, or the lives that were erased from the Earth, all due to the radically misguided zealots of the day and their abject policies of superiority? "Benefitted" from genocide? You have adopted a distorted definition of the word "benefit" laddie, when you wrap it around and base it upon something as permanently destructive as genocide. And the rest of your thought processes are akin to a 50 car freight that jumped tracks at full throttle - contorted and twisted. The world wouldn't have a 40 hour work week without genocide? The world wouldn't have internal combustion engines without genocide? Refrigeration without genocide? Sulfa drugs and penicillin without genocide? Genocide was necessary in order to create the industrial fabric that would halt genocide in future centuries? Nothing personal, huh? Wrong. Such foolishness is extremely personal - and symbols, winks and nods laced into a text message don't manage to make such comments any less insulting or their distribution any less destructive. As for your statement that "one cannot judge history by modern standards...?" Go back and read your post. That is exactly what you are doing - using your "modern" standards as a ruler to justify genocide, or at least diminutize its consequences. As for bringing democracy to other nations? If you're going to reference history at least have the decency to do so accurately. The Arab region once had a fledgling democracy, until Britain and the US undercut it to keep the oil fields from being nationalized. Do yourself and everyone else a favor by conductin a quick internet search for "Mossadegh," or try http://www.jebhemelli.org/Mosadegh/English-Mosadegh.htm. [If you really want to get serious, have a go at other democracies and social constructs that were decimated during the Eisenhower years. Murder and Mayhem, Incorporated for the last 50 years in numerous instances as a result of American subversion.] You also seem to think that Arab nations are somehow second rate. Lest you forget, the nations of Islam had libraries and universities centuries before their was a centralized "christian" church. And maybe the only reason they don't seem to be up to an acceptable speed by your standards is that every hundred years arrogant nationalists/corporatists/colonists and religious zealots with multi-national armies to support them keep pillaging and marauding them back to their very foundations. Maybe you too would get a bit weary of having to rebuild your country every century, or sometimes more frequently. Perhaps you too would get virulently angry with always being forced to wear the yoke and plow as demanded by "colonial imperialism." Or would you just nod your head dutifully in acquiescence that scorched earth policies are necessary for the greater good of everyone else? That the erradication and subjagation of the few is necessary in order to secure the oppulence, avarice and excess of the many? Bullshit!!! - and with no apology. Todd Swearingen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:21 AM Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war > Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my > ":)?". I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run from > the genocide that happened in North America in the past. One cannot judge > history by modern standards, that's History 101! America is single-handedly > the most innovative populace the world has ever known period. Look around > you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and > continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for even > more than were lost in the settling of this land. We are all benefiting > from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations ago, > and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past. Do you like > your medicine? Your efficient, convenient way of life? Your entertainment, > refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet? Have > you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or > wondered about the mysteries of Space? This country has developed more > technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting from. > > Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world? Were it > not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving the world > from tyranny and genocide? Did anyone else contribute more to the plight of > the South Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Kuwaitis and Saudis, or to the people > of Yugoslavia? Who stopped the communists from taking over the world? Has > anyone else offered to bail out countless corrupt government after corrupt > government, saving people from poverty, without even asking to be re-paid? > Do I condone genocide? Of course not. But we, in this day and age, have > all benefited from it. That is all I am saying. > > As for my comments on the need to reduce incentive for stability in the > Middle East, I apologize for painting anyone on this list (who did not want > to be painted) as working toward reducing dependency on foreign oil, > specifically oil from the Middle East. What I meant to say, is that I am > working to reduce our dependency on foreign oil so that we as a nation have > less of a reason (incentive) to meddle in the affairs of the Middle East. > As far as I can tell (and I have never been there) the region is fraught > with religious strife, brutality, ignorance, and hatred. In short, most of > the countries there seem almost laughably behind the times given their > resources, corrupt, and no place to be if you were born with fallopian tubes > and a uterus. Islamic law fosters fear, slows progress, and is easily > abused by those in power. We are fighting the evil, backward, minority in > Iraq for many reasons, oil, hope, and liberation among them. We have > attempted to provide them with hope for a brighter future, teach them about > democracy and free trade, so that we may watch them prosper, and no one can > seem to get past centuries old grudges and hatred toward one another and us. > It got so bad, one man ordered the hijacking and crashing of our own planes > (once again our inventions) into our own skyscrapers (dido) because we had > established a base in "The Holy Land" to promote stability in the region, > and he couldn't handle we "Infidels" on his turf. Where were the Muslims > after 9/11? I sure didn't hear cries of outrage and condemnation from their > community, did you? In fact the silence, at least state-side, was > deafening. We are "infidels," and every good Muslim must rid the world of > infidels according to the Koran, am I right? So I say, "Fine, you want me > dead? I'll fight you back by not buying your oil and watching you figure > out the world doesn't work that way anymore and changing. > > I buy and promote biodiesel to give the people of the Middle East incentive > to find another line of work and move forward. As for the non-American > majority on this list, stop and consider, for a moment where you would be > without us. > > Ryan > -----Original Message----- > From: appalenergy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:50 AM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war > > > Crikey Ryan! > > Did you read what you wrote? Do you even understand what it is that > you communicated? > > How distored a perspective can you have when you say > > > that much more good has come from our use > > of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who > inhabited > > it previously. > > And to justify such a statement of arrogance by trying to lay guilt > on the doorsteps of those who came after such slaughter? How > disconnected and disjointed can a human being's thought processes be? > > Benefitted? Haven't you figured out that the mindless and "depraved > philosophy" of Manifest Destiny is something that global society is > suffering the consequences from to this very day? Not to mention > that it's acceptance and implementation in one era smooths the path > for its implementation in every generation thereafter. > > Get real for a moment. It's somehow okay to slaughter and > displace "the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic ... natives" who > cannot withstand overwhelming numbers, unimaginable weaponry and > devastating disease? > > Who the hell are you or anyone else to pass such judgement? > > Wake up for Christ's sake!!! And everyone elses. Standing up for > a "depraved philosophy that states we are morally compelled by God > Almighty to kill weaker people and steal their land" is every bit as > immoral and depraved as those who swing the sword, obliterate food > supplies or intentionally seed blankets with smallpox - or any > similar actions. > > And then you move on and take issue with applications of similar > policies of arrogance in the present day? Something sure isn't wound > and tensioned properly in your upstairs orbit if you can on the one > hand see the insanity of Bush's implementation of Jacksonian policy > but still endorse or justify such aberrations in historical context. > > Somehow you need to get a mental, emotional and even spiritual grip > and start understanding that all those dead, maimed and displaced > persons from previous generations that you so easily dismiss were as > human as you are at this very moment - and judging by your words, > perhaps more so in many respects. > > One can only wonder how you would perceive history if you were a > mother or child or infant or weathered elder on the receiving end of > a saber or bullet sent from "god." > > What are now "ghosts" were once brothers and sisters. And neither > you nor anyone else has ever possessed the right to wave your hand > and state that their murder is or was justified. > > As for your dismally blind and sweepingly general perspective on how > well off the indigenous peoples of the North American continent are > today or what the traits of a broadened education are? > > Whatever it is that you're smoking you need to put it down and take > a long walk back into the world of reality. > > Todd Swearingen > > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > All I can add in our defense, is that much more good has come from > our use > > of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who > inhabited > > it previously. Yes, you too have benefited from Jackson' s quest, > so find a > > better argument about the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic though > culturally > > rich natives who fell easily to manifest destiny. Their children > are being > > well taken care of, and now have the benefit of electricity, > inexpensive > > housing, internal combustion, oh, and beer. :) > > > > Also, we sure picked a loser for a President in 2000, good thing > we can kick > > him out of office in 2004. How many other countries refresh their > > leadership on such a regular basis? I agree with some who think > his entire > > administration should be behind bars for the atrocities, > corruption, and > > fleecing of not only the American public, but the entire world. I > am > > ashamed to be associated with our false President and his cabinet > these > > days, but proud that I voted for Al Gore, and rightly so...as it > turns out. > > Is Kerry the answer? Maybe, but at least he will choose an > entirely > > different administration and get those crocked-good-for-nothin' > Ashcrofts, > > Rumsfelds, and Cheneys out of positions of power. When push comes > to shove, > > and believe me it has! The American public will do the right > thing. > > > > In the mean time, we're all [here on this list] are just doing > what we can > > to reduce the need for foreign oil, to take the incentive away from > > stability in the Middle East. Personally I look forward to the > day when the > > economics of the region make it impossible to inhabit the area, at > least on > > the same scale. Where will all of those people go? Well, they > may just > > have to assimilate elsewhere, obey the law, get a job, and act > respectable. > > Enough of this 2000 year code of Islamic law already, the world > awards > > progress...they'll figure it out. > > > > Please note I don't hate Native Americans or Muslim populations in > general, > > I believe all people are generally good, and have gone through the > four > > years of feminist based philosophy that is State-sponsored > University here > > in the US. With that said- > > > > > > Flame away dear friends, > > > > Ryan :) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 1:57 PM > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] US poll about Iraq war > > > > > > Why not ask the Israelis Ted? > > > > No. Wait. They haven't figured out their little problem yet > either. > > > > Many don't agree with the analogy of Iraq being another Viet Nam. > > > > Rather, the comparison to the Gaza Strip or the West Bank is more > > appropriate - continual attrition, continual hate, continual > oppression, > > continual occupation. > > > > But heck. The US has been very good at oppression, occupation > and even > > genocide throughout its "illustrious" past. Just ask any > American native. > > And for that? Jackson got his picture on the $20. > > > > One very queer country that pays homage to those who are the > architects of > > such sweeping devastation. > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ted Dinkelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] US poll about Iraq war > > > > > > > As the poll states, the majority think this is a bad idea. My > question > > is > > how do we get out of it? Just quiting and going home would be a > worse > > situation and staying will cost many lives on all sides. > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I just saw the latest gallup polls about the Iraq war and Bush > handling > > of > > > it. As we said the whole time, "it were and is a bad idea to > > unilaterally > > > occupy Iraq". Now finally a majority of the American people > seems to > > agree > > > with it and that Bush is not capable to handle it. Now we > cannot find > > any > > > majority population of any country in the world, who think > that the > > Iraq > > > occupation was or is a good idea. > > > > > > We also find some fine ways of which the OPEC countries show > their > > opinion > > > of what is happening. They are signing up the major > development of > > Natural > > > Gas with other countries, like Russia and China, and when US > finally > > have > > > transport capacity for NG, they will have difficulties to buy > enough. > > The > > > same is happening on new oil exploration. They also have > difficulties in > > > delivering more oil to US. This is not a surprise, if the > proponents of > > the > > > opinion that we at the moment experience the Hubbert peak of > oil > > > production. The other possibility is that the oil producing > countries > > > prefer to sell to China, than to US. My personal opinion is > that, even > > if > > > they wanted, they cannot meet the growing demand in US and the > world. US > > is > > > not only buying to meet higher demands, but is also buying > desperately > > for > > > filling up their strategic storage reserve, that way pushing > prices > > higher. > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > -- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! 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