>The change from "Global warming" to climate change isn't because of some
>double think,

It is, actually. But I didn't say "double think", I said "euphemism", 
quite different.

>but because it more accurately describes the event(s).  It
>is also a lot scarier then the Earth warming a few degrees.

"The Earth warming a few degrees" does not describe the Greenhouse Effect.

>I wouldn't blow off the movie so quickly.  The movie does have it share
>of flaws mainly because science doesn't have any good ways to explain
>how cold weather animals are quickly frozen, so they invented cyclones
>sucking super cold air down from aloft despite the fact that cyclones
>suck surface air in and push it up.

I haven't seen it and I doubt I'll bother, but don't blame the 
"science" for a bad movie. This is about typical:

>David Edelstein (The Ice Age Cometh) for Slate:
>"The Day After Tomorrow has one of the most absurd and implausible 
>plot turns I've seen in a movie, ever. Global warming melts the 
>polar ice caps, which makes the oceans rise and disrupts the Gulf 
>Stream. There are lethal hailstones in Tokyo and ravaging tornadoes 
>in L.A.; and after New York City is flooded by seawater, the 
>temperature plunges at a rate of 10 degrees per second, so that 
>people are transformed into ice statues where they stand. Tens of 
>millions are dead and the upper United States has become 
>uninhabitable. Now here's the implausible part. The vice president 
>-- closely modeled on Dick Cheney -- who has pooh-poohed all 
>evidence of global warming, goes on TV and says, 'I was wrong.'"
>I won't destroy a second of suspense if I tell you that the Northern 
>Hemisphere is turned into a snowball within a few cataclysmic 
>Hollywood days, and an ice chunk by movie's end -- but couldn't 
>Emmerich have left the ice-cubed Statue of Liberty to Planet of the 
>Apes where it should remain forever a symbol of a previous notion of 
>man-made Armageddon? (Oh, and speaking of Lady Liberty, in a pure 
>Gulf-Stream-of-consciousness aside, let me quote a Tomdispatch 
>reader from Quebec: "I couldn't help but be knocked over by the 
>irony of Bush's promised bigger and better, state-of-the-art prison 
>to be built in Iraq. How is the average Iraqi expected to react to 
>this news? The French gave America the Statue of Liberty to 
>celebrate America's freedom. And America is giving Iraq a new jail 
>to celebrate its liberation?")
>The Day After Tomorrow is one of those lame movies where, when zoo 
>keepers, knee deep in water, notice that the wolves are missing from 
>their cages, you don't doubt for a second they'll later appear to 
>menace our young heroes. (Given the film's subject, the villains had 
>to have fur coats.) As it turns out, this latest cinematic 
>Armageddon ends on a bizarrely happy, not to say triumphant note. 
>Perhaps the alien currents were driven back to outer space and I 
>didn't even notice.



>If anything we will have lows moving
>very cold polar air masses south, which would have close to the same
>effect except on a larger scale.

Too soon to tell.

>The "Greenhouse effect", "global warming" and ice age is all related.
>Our production of the greenhouse gases "MAY" have speeded up a natural
>process but it didn't cause it.

The "Greenhouse effect" is not a natural process, or at least it's 
never happened before, or not on Planet Earth anyway, or not during 
the period that Planet Earth has been graced with a biosphere. It 
seems you don't know what it is. Try Venus.

If our industrial-age and fossil-fuel carbon releases have triggered, 
or helped to trigger, along with other factors, a runaway Greenhouse 
effect, then we certainly would have caused it.

If instead it flips into an Ice Age, that is a natural process 
indeed, but causing it to arrive a few hundred years early would 
amount to something more than just an "Ooops!"

A few degrees of global warming that then levels off will be quite 
disruptive and destructive enough.

As it is, a new Ice Age is still not seen as the most likely scenario.

>The bottom line is that it doesn't

Uh-huh. So, what? - so go on burning up fossil fuel resources, 
releasing CO2 and so on and generally living like there's no tomorrow?

>The chain reaction has already started and nothing that we do
>at this point will stop or even slow down the climate change.

:-) A few months ago, and indeed still, so many people in the US were 
pooh-poohing it all and claiming there wasn't any science, but now 
it's all cut and dried, eh? Sorry, but that is a preposterous 
statement. It reminds me of this:

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899

>Discussing the cause is really a waste of time.

Without discussion, study and investigation of all types of the cause 
and all other factors involved, and how they might affect one 
another, no doubt your claim above that there's nothing to be done 
would come true. Fortunately, most humans are less passive and 
stoical than that.

I don't think you checked any of those refs, did you? Or not to much 
avail anyway.



>Darryl Wagoner - WA1GON
>Past President - Nashua Area Radio Club
>"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."  - Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
>Join the TrustedQSL mailing list.  An Open Source solution.
>Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subscribe:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:00 AM
> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [biofuel] climate changes
> >
> > Interesting how the term has changed from "Global warming" to
> > "Climate change", at least in the US. That was partly a sort of
> > imposed euphemism by the Bush Administration, when they could bring
> > themselves to mention it at all, when various official reports could
> > no longer be suppressed and so on. And now "Climate change" seems to
> > mean a sudden Ice Age rather than a Greenhouse Effect, especially
> > with Hollywood chucking its weight in with this apparently very silly
> > movie. The Pentagon report focused more on possible abrupt effects of
> > climate change, not necessarily that such effects were more likely
> > but that they could be more catastrophic and more difficult to plan
> > for. A new Ice Age is one possible scenario; it starts off with
> > rising temperatures anyway, as does Global Warming, but which it will
> > be is not yet certain. Both at the same time? I don't think so.
> >
> > Anyway, both the Observer report and associated reports have been
> > posted previously (no reason not to do it again though):
> >
> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/32387/
> > Weathering the Crisis - World Bank, Pentagon: global warming red alert
> >
> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/32446/
> > Pentagon Goes Crazy for Massive Climate Change
> >
> > This is part of a previous discussion here, between me and MM, which
> > you might find interesting:
> >
> > >>Interestingly, as a followup, the one response I got there was that
> > >>the possibility of global cooling is not getting enough attention.
> > >>The author nearly descended into vituperation (obviously my little
> > >>post must have been super-provocative), though that was not directed
> > >>precisely against me either.
> > >
> > >That was the view in the late 60s, and indeed much earlier, up to as
> > >much as a century ago I think. Since the early 1980s at least more
> > >and better data, better ways of crunching it, further studies, have
> > >increasingly indicated the opposite, now overwhelmingly so. I don't
> > >think global cooling has been entirely disproved, but it's heavily
> > >outweighed.
> > >
> > >In 1982 a book appeared called The Survival of Civilization, written
> > >by a strange person named John D. Hamaker, which predicted global
> > >cooling. He paints a picture of rising CO2 levels triggering a
> > >sudden and catastrophic ice age. He sees it as a regular phenomenon,
> > >tracing it back through the last 17 ice ages, or something like
> > >that. The mechanism is that the topsoil runs out of minerals,
> > >leading to a decrease in the amount of biomass and a consequent
> > >release of CO2 into the atmosphere, which at first triggers warming
> > >and then an ice age. The ice grinds up a huge amount of surface rock
> > >into dust, as glaciers do but on a much vaster scale, finally
> > >retreating to leave a remineralised soil behind via the rock dust.
> > >It's quite a persuasive picture, and he does have his evidence for
> > >it. He reckons this time we've simply hastened the onset of the
> > >process with our fossil-fuel CO2 releases. He also proposes
> > >arresting the process by remineralising the land worldwide with rock
> > >dust. He even designed a handy machine to grind up rocks on the spot.
> > >
> > >I read the book at the time (a convert friend sent it to me). It's a
> > >cranky book but there's quite a lot of sense in it, particularly
> > >about soil mineralisation, but I didn't accept the main conclusion
> > >that a rapid transition to a new ice-age was imminent: "The broad
> > >truth is that without radical and immediate reform (particularly in
> > >this nation [the US]), civilization will be wrecked by 1990 and
> > >extinct by 1995." Well, maybe he just got the timing wrong. Or was
> > >he right and we just didn't notice? :-)
> > >
> > >He was ignored by the science community (which probably means he's
> > >either a misguided nut or a great prophet). And now it's become a
> > >bit of a cult book on the Internet, bad timing notwithstanding.
> > >
> > >You can find it online (pdf) here, FWIW:
> > >http://www.remineralize-the-earth.org/don/tsoc.pdf
> > >or here:
> > >http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010146tsoc.pdf
> > >
> > >So we'll fry or we'll freeze, or something. But certainly something.
> > >And it definitely makes sense to cut the fossil fuels, but fast.
> > >
> > >>I'll try to keep an eye on various opinions as to climate change and
> > >>form my own opinions, (though I'm generally of the working view that
> > >>there seems to be enough evidence of man-induced change to warrant
> > >>action immediately), but it just seems to be this very very very
> > >>touchy area.
> > >>
> > >>A lot of the touchy part is that many anti-environmentalists are
> > >>convinced that environmentalists have, for centuries, been using
> > >>concerns about this or that "threat" as a pretext for an
> > >>anti-industrial agenda.
> > >
> > >There is such a history. During the so-called industrial revolution
> > >in Britain the industrialists (upstarts) were pitted against the
> > >land-owning class (the aristocracy, basically), and those were the
> > >issues, pretty much. But I don't think it has much relevance to the
> > >issues at stake today. I think there's been just too much "Wise
> > >Use"-type right-wing "think-tank" spin in the US and too much
> > >polarization as a result. It works very well, it's almost impossible
> > >to have a sensible discussion (we've seen it here, often), and with
> > >the row raging on and attention successfully diverted, "business as
> > >usual" is just so much easier.
> > >
> > >>But for me, I'm willing to grant that.  Let's
> > >>say that's the history of some of the matter, for some or many
> > >>environmentalists, and that, furthermore, I'm not inherently
> > >>anti-industrial.
> > >
> > >Neither are environmentalists, by and large, though they have their
> > >polarized, knee-jerk elements too, but that's more of a result than
> > >a cause.
> > >
> > >>But so what?  Is this a scientific discussion?  Or an interpersonal
> > >>motivational-analysis, I want to ask them?
> > >
> > >Ask them! But maybe don't expect a majority of sensible answers.
> > >
> > >>Because I want to know
> > >>about global warming, real or alleged, and it's very tough to get
> > >>straight answers when folks are so angry.  In my view, the
> > >>anti-environmentalists need to stop assuming that everyone who might
> > >>see global warming is looking for an anti-industrial pretext.  I'm
> > >>just trying to pay attention to the science, as best I can, between
> > >>the screaming matches.
> > >
> > >Try to find a non-US forum, or at least a forum where Americans are
> > >heavily outnumbered. That's not anti-American, it's just that
> > >America, Americans, American media, have been exposed to a LOT more
> > >anti-global warming and more recently anti-human caused global
> > >warming anti-science and sheer BS than anyone else has. Virtually
> > >everywhere else the debate is much more practical and science-based,
> > >much less emotional and polarised, less side-tracked, just more
> > >advanced.
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > >Greetings,
> > >
> > >This is a subject that I have studied in the last few months.
> > >
> > >Climate change (will happen, but a matter of when).  This is another
> > >when not if.  It has happen in the past and sign are starting to
> > >to the process is already starting.  The Pentagon secret report
> >
> >http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1153513,00.ht
> > >l states that climate change is the greatest threat to national
> > >in the 21st century, even greater than terrorism and war.  Woods Hole
> > >Inst.
> >
> >http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/abruptclimate_joyce_k
> > >igwin.html and NASA
> > >http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/05mar_arctic.htm?list978252
> > >already mapping changes in the Gulf Stream, which could trigger a new
> > >ice age in Europe.  In the past this happens very quickly, minutes
> > >hours not months or years.  That doesn't mean that we won't get any
> > >warning.  Weather doesn't happen in a blink of the eye, but an ice
> > >may move very quickly, so you have to watch the weather maps.
> > >
> > >I think it is important to note that ice ages come and go thru out
> > >history with or without the help of man.  There also seems to be
> > >one and small ones.  At this point there is no way to predict which
> > >next one will be.
> > >If one hits your area you should have 3-9 months before snow and ice
> > >over takes the system to clean it off the roads.  So it isn't the
> > >rush that "The Day after tomorrow" pictured.  I think it will happen
> > >the 3-10 year time frame instead of the 20-30 year others are saying.
> > >
> > >Good luck!
> > >
> > >--
> > >Darryl Wagoner - WA1GON
> > >Past President - Nashua Area Radio Club
> > >"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."  - Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
> > >
> > >Join the TrustedQSL mailing list.  An Open Source solution.
> > >Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subscribe:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >List owner:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >http://www.trustedQSL.org
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Kim & Garth Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 9:17 AM
> > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [biofuel] climate changes
> > > >
> > > > This is something I have been watching for a few years now, but I
> > >don't
> > > > completely understand what exactly is being predicted.  My
> > >understanding
> > > > to
> > > > date is:  The earth for now is getting hotter and melting the
> > >ice
> > > > caps.  This is releasing tons of cold fresh water into our oceans
> > >this
> > > > will disrupt the various currents that move the heat from the
> > >to
> > > > the poles.  Once this disruption happens, we are in an ice age and
> > >very
> > > > quickly most of the northern hemisphere will be covered with
> > >At
> > > > the same time the equator regions will get extremely hot and have
> > >really
> > > > vicious storms.  All of this is expected in the next 10 to 30
> > > > years.  Unless by some miracle the human race smartens up.
> > > >
> > > > So, if you were about to relocate in semi retirement, where would
> > >pick
> > > > to try and live out your life?
> > > >
> > > > Bright Blessings,
> > > > Kim

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