The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation & browser that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to work around, different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot justify any more work in SVG for my projects.
I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform. I'm pretty sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something else. I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it before it occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for years - meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never guessed this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue, everything is rosy; there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here. Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily by updating the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this technology any further. And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG efforts that are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current rate of progress it will be at least two more years before all of the various browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a consistent manner. I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help from this list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong with the list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports becomes BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband issues rather than staying stuck on one small thing. The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new graphical rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks dead. Please don't shoot the messengers. In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML, shackled by glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient bitmapped graphics. Something more is needed. _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of "~:'' ????????????" Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 2:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [svg-developers] Re: OT my pennyworth... SVG has been around a while but like other W3 specifications, there's little if any input or feedback from the public aka end-users. the result is that after more than a decade there are still no html or svg authoring tools that the ordinary joe can pick up and use out of the box. the only easy to use tools are corporate owned, such as myspace, youtube.... These rarely produce code that passes minimal accessibility standards. In fact there seems to be little if any inclination to update SVG1.1 accessibility guidelines, which frankly had some pretty significant "holes" such as a complete failure to specify support for keyboard navigation. Developers, and their employers benefit enormously from feature bloat. There are also a few Trojans that get to manipulate standards before abandoning them, to whose benefit? cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 26 May 2007, at 19:55, Doug Schepers wrote: Hi, Stephen- I think you have a fair question and I wish I were more informed about the technical details of Silverlight to answer you more intelligently; learning more about Silverlight is definitely something on my short list (embrace and extend, anyone?). But I think I'm in a position to answer your concerns about SVG. Stephen Quintero wrote: > > I guess it's a sore spot. Since I asked the original question, I'll put in > my last 2 cents. > > I've more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool which relies > heavily on SVG (and it's in alpha). It is all built with open standards > tech. It works (though not identically in all browsers and not at all in > Safari). WebKit is putting serious effort into improving its SVG implementation, to the point that Apple has recently joined the SVG Working Group. I would expect to see marked improvement in Safari within the year (no insider information, I just know from the trades that lots of Apple resources have been diverted to push out other Apple products). > If I worked in academia or government that would be then end of it - I could > just dictate, "if you want to use it then do this, if not too bad". But > really, in my circumstances, it's too bad for me. > > I would, of course, like something users trust, works reliably in different > browser/OS combinations and is robust. I would like to stay with SVG > because of my investment, because it is open standard, etc. At this point, > SVG is like early HTML - you have to code for different browsers and limit > your functionality, but it does fabulous things. If it were maturing driven > by user demand and killer apps, that would be just fine. But I have this > nagging feeling I need to be prepared in case it is eaten by Godzilla. SVG is not going away. You can put that fear to rest. If you are worried about support in IE, that's an open question. I am hoping that there is still interest in the IE team to implement SVG; they are a separate division from the Silverlight team, and they recently came back to the standards table with what seems to be good will. As a strategic move, they could even benefit from implementing SVG; it is very similar to Silverlight (hmmm.... wonder why?), more so than Flash, and may help shift vector technologies in that direction. It would be a good PR move, and provide an open alternative for those that need or desire that. And if the pie is split 3 ways instead of 2, that will cut in Silverlight's favor. But let's assume that IE doesn't implement SVG natively. There are several SVG implementations under active development, not the least of which is the ever-improving Renesis player, which aim to provide advanced support for SVG in IE (if only as a plug-in... which, remember, is how Silverlight is distributed). As a financial concern, it's prudent of you to investigate if Silverlight will also work for you (if only as a backup plan); I suspect the conversion will not be profound, but you'll have to research that yourself. > This is a relevant concern and question for many people who work with SVG, > hence my post here. It can even reasonably be considered a technical issue > with SVG. If you are riding a horse and it croaks under you, that is a > technical failure. > > Yes, I hoped to elicit a more thorough and calm response describing the > limits of functionality of Silverlight by way of comparison. And even some > insight into the market and why SVG is here to stay (particularly in IE). > But, you get what you get. I suspect most people who are interested in SVG are leary of YAPVF (yet another proprietary vector format), and Silverlight is still pretty new. I imagine that there will be more intelligent discussion of the subject here in coming months. > Some rats row, some rats flee the ship, some rats pretend everything is > okay. I hope it is. If it weren't for the abandonment of ASV, I would > certainly think so. Given a decent chance, open standards tools have proven > themselves. But without ongoing development in IE 6/7, which is 3/4 of the > market, then there is undoubted concern. ASV was not the only game in town, and their tepid support ultimately did more harm than good to SVG in the latter years. Lines are definitely being drawn in this space, and I expect a lot of movement from all related technologies. There is a commercial drive in SVG, just as there is in the others. > For better or worse, I have to make my software work for Joe and Sally who > use the internet for web-surfing and shopping. Not for CS students and > Linux geeks. A few years ago, I might have agreed that SVG was academic and more purist than practical. But I see more support and more market relevance for it now. Regards- -Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ----- To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" ---- Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
