Trolling is when you make outrageous postings with the intention of agitating the 
subscriers.  Stuff like saying Java sucks, or C++ is 100% gauruntee that you will have 
memory leaks, etc, etc.  I actually wrote all types of C++ applications.  You don't 
really know what I have written in my career now do you?  600MB of executable?  That's 
a problem.  Yes, you are correct, I have never written a C++ application (or system 
for that matter) with a 600MB executable -- I see something essentially wrong with 
that.

And C++ executables comapred to C executables... I don't think I really ever saw a 
difference over 50% in size.  Your statements are very black and white and close 
minded and also attacking to the ideas and methodologies of hundreds of thousands of 
IT professionals -- hence, "trolling"

Anyway, good luck to you

-----Original Message-----
From: Ivan Jouikov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 3:44 PM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worstthingsto ever happen 



What the hell are you talking about?   I am all for java.  Java is my #1 language.


> Oh for crying out loud Ivan!  You challanged my assertion that Java is the
> "number one language" asking for the source of the stats and I give them
> to you but you just go on whining.  Please take your trolling somewhere
> else.  Get A LIFE.  and as to C++?
        My trolling?  I don't even know what that means.  And I do have a life.

> 
> > Huge file sizes
> I wonder what compiler, and linking options are you using?  I do not have
> a problem with my executables being "huge" at all.  Then again, I don't
> use frameworks that are inefficeint hogs.  Sounds like the programmer.

        Huge file sizes was said about C++ COMPARATIVELY to C.  Any program in C++ 
will be much bigger than exactly same program in C.

> 
> > 100% guaranteed memory leaks
> Sounds like the programmer.  My code doesn't have memory leaks!  Then
> again, I know how to write disciplined code, something that quick and
> dirty programmers can't understand.  I also know how to use tools that
> track memory leaks.

        Looks like you've never written a 600MB program.  

> 
> 
> And lo The Heavenly Father doth rest.  And whilst He rest, His hand
> accidentally brushed the keyboard and somehow keyed in the following code.
> 
> Troller ivan = new Troller();
> ivan.setIrrational(true);
> ivan.setOverEmotional(true);
> ivan.setLife(null);
> ivan.setClue(null);
> ivan.setThinkingStyle(Psychosis.THINKING_STYLE_BLACK_AND_WHITE);
> 
> ivan.setDailyRoutine(new Runnable() {
>     public void run() {
>         while(ivan.awake()) {
>             Forum target = web.surfForUnsuspectingVictims();
>             if(target != null) {
>                 Iterator i = target.getMessages();
>                 while(i.hasNext()) {
>                     ForumPosting intelligentPosting = (Posting) i.next();
>                     intelligentPosting.read();
>                     ForumPostingReplyFactory replyFactory =
> ivan.getPsychoticReponseGenerator();
>                     Reply reply = replyFactory.createResponse();
>                     while(reply.makesSense()) {
>                         reply.rant();
>                         reply.bitch();
>                         reply.whine();
>                         reply.moan();
>                         reply.saySomethingIrrational();
>                     }
>                     target.post(reply);
>                     ivan.setIQ(ivan.getIQ() - 1);
>                 }
>             }
>         }
>         ivan.slapSelf(Slap.HARD);
>         throw new IdiotTrollerException();
>     }
> });
> 
> ivan.run();
> 

        Hahahah :)  That was a good one.  You telling me to get a life and you have 
time to do that?  BTW

>                 Iterator i = target.getMessages();
>                 while(i.hasNext()) {

I really like how 1.5 has the for( Element e : collection ) loop.   Don't you agree?

> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivan Jouikov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:29 PM
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worstthingsto
> ever happen
> 
> 
> Ok let's settle this argument simple.
> 
> Tonight, I'll ask my Christian Science friend to talk to Jesus, and ask
> him the following:
> 
> "Jesus, if EL really DOES decrease performance significantly, and should
> not be used at all, please give me absolutely NO sign.  However, if EL is
> a great thing and should be used by everyone, please give me a sign".
> 
> I'll report to you in the morning and let you know what was God's opinion
> on that.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SANTOS, DANIEL (SBCSI) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 4:02 PM
> > To: Tomcat Users List
> > Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the
> worstthingsto
> > ever happen
> >
> > > >
> > > > If this is the case then I ask you why Java has been the number one
> > > > programming language for 4 years now?
> > >   Source of this statistic?
> > >
> >
> > I assumed that this was fairly common knowledge.  I remember when it
> > surpassed C++ in Febuary of 2000 (I thought at the time in development
> > hours).  Having been a Java programmer since 1997, this was a pretty big
> > deal for me.  I even remembered the month/year it happened (which made
> it
> > easire for me to find this report).  So here is the original report, a
> > Bloor Research study from Febuary of 2000.  It even has a cute little
> > graph that plots the various languages-- http://www.bloor-
> > research.com/research_library.php?pid=282
> >
> > Now that I look back at it I see that this is when the *demand* for java
> > skills surpassed that of C++ skills.  It looks like it was just March of
> > last year
> > (http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/media/presskits/edge2003/factsheet.pdf)
> that
> > that Java actually surpassed C++ in development hours.  This was of
> course
> > the eventual outcome of it's demand surpassing all other skills.  The
> data
> > from this Sun press release is from the Gartner Group BTW.
> >
> > Java is King, there are really no "if"s, "and"s or "butt"s about it.
> >
> > As to your performance issues, I don't have them so I can only sugest
> that
> > you can examine your environement, your compiler options (are you using
> > hotspot?) and your getters.  All of my bottlenecks are in my DB calls.
> I
> > have done performance analysis and never came up in my EL.  As I
> sugested
> > earlier, maybe you can run hprof and see where the bottleneck really is?
> >
> > Also, I considered myself a fairly hardcode C++ developer (having done
> it
> > from '95 to 2002).  If I am ever in a situation where my memory usage is
> > critical, I'm almost certainly in C or C++.  If performance is
> important,
> > I consider C or C++.  But IPC, threading, and networking is so
> > phenominally better on Java not to mention the benefits of garbage
> > collection and all of it's other features that I am hard pressed to
> leave
> > it or go JNI.  I did need JNI recently for some file system stuff that I
> > wanted tweaked (traversing file systems with 100s of thousands of
> files).
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > > > As was recognized long ago,
> > > > performance is not everything.  And in fact, means little
> > > when you can't
> > > > get your product out the door because you are still trying
> > > to chase down
> > > > memory leaks, buffer overruns and corrupted pointers.
> > >
> > >   When performance dependes on whether you use <%=hello%>
> > > or ${hello}, I'll stick with the first one, considering that
> > > it boosts performance up by like 5 times.
> > >
> > > >  As somebody else
> > > > said, C++ programmers will understand this.
> > > >
> > > > Daniel
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Eric VERGNAUD [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 11:33 AM
> > > > To: Tomcat Users List
> > > > Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of
> > > the worstthingsto
> > > > ever happen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > le 4/07/04 14:27, SH Solutions а [EMAIL PROTECTED] a йcrit :
> > > >
> > > > > Right now, I would say that java applications (if well
> > > written) are at
> > > > least
> > > > > half as fast as c applications (also well written).
> > > >
> > > > Which means that when your java app is in competition with
> > > a native app,
> > > > youve lost the market.
> > > >
> > > > -------------------------------
> > > > Eric VERGNAUD - JLynx Software
> > > > Cutting-edge technologies and
> > > > services for software companies
> > > > web: http://www.jlynx.com
> > > > -------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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