DAVEH:� Once again, DavidM, I am indebted to you for your explanation.� I wish someone had defined this (from a Protestant perspective) for me like this a couple years ago.
David Miller wrote: > DAVEH: > > As we've discussed in the past, the definition of "saved" > > has a lot to do with whether or not one is saved. > > I've explained my definition (entry to heaven), and still > > don't understand yours. > > A person is saved from sin when they believe upon Jesus Christ. DAVEH:� I assume you are saying a person can still sin and still believe in JC at the same time?� Or......do you think that one excludes the other?� And......I would assume that you believe the penalty for that sin (that is of an unsaved person) is to be burned in the lake of fire....correct? > A person is saved from this world system when they enter the Kingdom of God. DAVEH:� Regarding the "Kingdom of God", I assume you are referring to heaven?� Certainly not a "church"...., as I understand you.� Or do you define KofG differently?� If you are defining it as "heaven", then it seems like your definition of "saved" would be very similar to mine.� Hmmmm......another question just entered my mind.....do you think it possible that a mortal enter the KofG while still in mortality??? > A person is saved from this weak flesh when his body is resurrected. DAVEH:� I think we agree on this. > Dave, you seem to allow only this last definition of "saved," but we use the > word "saved" in other ways.� Plain and simple, a saved person is someone who > belongs to God. DAVEH:� I don't understand how a person can "enter the Kingdom of God", when they are still in mortality, unless you think of KofG as some kind of hierarchical organization.� I'll have to wait for you to explain the KofG to me, I guess. > Dave, let me ask you a few questions about your terminology: > > 1.� In your perspective, must a person be baptized in order to enter the > Kingdom of God? DAVEH:� Yes.� The baptismal covenant is a crucial part of that process. > 2.� Must a person be baptized to no longer be part of this world? DAVEH:� You are losing me on this.� Literally......to be "no longer be part of this world", one must die.� So I sense that you are framing this in a symbolic or idealistic setting.� How do you explain "part of this world"?� I assume there must be some Bible passages that help define this for you? > 3.� Must a person be baptized in order to receive the Holy Ghost? DAVEH:� Yes and no.� (And I hope this doesn't cause Brother Glenn to go into convulsive literary spasms again!----LOL) ��� I believe one can be influenced by the HG without even knowing of Jesus.� And, I believe that many people have felt his influence throughout history.� For example, LDS theology teaches that Columbus was thus inspired to set sail for the New World.� To me, that does not mean that he was saved, or that he was necessarily even a Christian.� It simply means that the Lord works his will in many ways using many people who we may not realize are motivated by the Spirit of God. ��� Now let me discuss the baptismal aspect of this.� It is our belief that when one covenants with the Lord at the time of baptism, we promise to take upon ourselves Christ's name and keep his commandments.� In return he promises salvation (or as I have said.....future entry to heaven), which is a result of his grace, to those who make that (baptismal) covenant as long as they keep his commandments.� At essentially the same time, the gift of the Holy Ghost is conferred to those who make that covenant by the laying on of hands.� So those who are baptized receive the Holy Ghost to reside in them continually as opposed to my above example (Columbus and others who have not made that covenant) who may occasionally and/or sporadically enjoy the influence of the HG when it is the will of the Lord to accomplish his gospel work. ��� I think I got a bit wordy there, DavidM.� I hope I didn't confuse you too much as to what I believe. > We would say that a person who has left this world, entered the Kingdom of > God, and received the Holy Ghost, is saved. DAVEH:� To me, that sounds like 'death', but I don't think that's the way you perceive it.� So.....I'll wait for you to explain KofG a bit more. > �Nevertheless, we do not mean > that his body has been saved yet, or resurrected. DAVEH:� I understand. > �He can be assured that > this resurrection will happen and that he will be saved in that respect. DAVEH:� And I agree with that too.� That is how I understand that people can be saved in the past and present, even though they have yet to die, resurrect and enter heaven. > The fact that there is yet a future tense of his salvation, when this whole > world will put off its corruptible nature, does not stop us from rejoicing > with him and talking about his salvation from this world system, from sin, > and about his being in God's Kingdom and being filled with the Holy Ghost. DAVEH:� I agree with you on that.� I just wonder where we disagree!� To me (and if I read you right, to you too), we are 'saved' now, because the Lord has made it possible for us to return to our Father in Heaven.� That doesn't mean that we will necessarily get there though.� If we betray our covenants, then we stray from the path Jesus walked as he leads us Home.� Perhaps you disagree with my last comment......? > Peace be with you. > David Miller. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ � ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
