David Miller wrote: >> Belief in Jesus Christ means a trust and confidence in him.
DAVEH wrote: > I would think belief is more than that. To me it means > to follow in his footsteps----to do his will and keep > his commandments. Do you associate belief with > keeping his commandments? Yes. When you see who Jesus is and you believe in Him, you will obey him and give him your whole life. You will do all that he wants you to do. DAVEH wrote: > What if that trust were incorrectly understood? Those referred > to by Jesus in Mt 7:21-23 meet thought their belief would save > them, but in fact it drew our Savior's criticism. Clearly their belief > was lacking some form of commitment. Perhaps they had neither > a covenant with the Lord, or as I have mentioned in the past..... > they did not have the proper authority to perform those 'wonderful > works'. I would say that they did not have faith. Rather, they were imitating those who had faith, and they thought that by doing the same things as those who had faith were doing, that they would be accepted by him. I think that Joseph Smith is an excellent example of this. He had a religious veneer that made him appear to be one who was a Bible believer, but his works were wicked. He defrauded people of their money, sweet talked women away from their husbands, and deceived many millions of people about what true faith is and what true authority in Jesus Christ is. I know you have a different perspective, but from my studies of Joseph Smith, that is how I see it. I think Joseph Smith will be one of those who will say, "But Lord, did I not do many wonderful works in your name?" Then the Lord will say to him, "depart from me, you who work iniquity. I never knew you." David Miller wrote: >> Jesus said that those of the world cannot receive the Holy Spirit, >> so that means that one must depart from the world before he can >> 1) see the Kingdom of God, and 2) enter the Kingdom of God. >> So a person who has received the Holy Spirit must first depart >> this world system, believe on Jesus Christ, and enter the Kingdom >> of God. If he has not been saved in this way, then he cannot receive >> the Holy Spirit. A person who has received the Holy Spirit has been >> saved, DAVEH: > That's where you are losing me.....above you suggested that some > may be under the influence of the HS without knowing Christ. So... > I guess you would then say they have not 'received' the HS. Yes, that is correct. DaveH wrote: > Is there any defining moment where one transitions from being > under the influence (of the HS) and receiving the HS? I assume > it is the point where one really 'believes/accepts/trusts' Jesus, > which is a mental/spiritual state as opposed to a convenantal > rite such as baptism? One might fully believe/accept/trust Jesus and be saved but not yet be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only one who can baptize another with the Holy Spirit. When a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit, he will know it. It is a powerful thing. Even those who might witness him receiving it also will know it. David Miller wrote: >> Please note that baptism might still be considered useful >> and a vehicle whereby people come into a saving knowledge >> of Jesus Christ, but we do not say that God rejects all those >> who have not been baptized, because the evidence is clear > > that God has received those who had not been baptized. DAVEH: > Obviously that isn't so clear to me! The baptism for the dead > issue would seem to support my side of that discussion. If it were clear that this was a valid practice taught by Jesus, I would agree, but the practice of baptizing for the dead seems to be an aberrant superstition. If you accept my previous arguments about how a person must first be saved, clean, left this world, in order to receive the Holy Spirit, then the incidence of Cornelius household in Acts 10 establishes very clearly that salvation can happen without water baptism. I'm not degrading baptism or its use. I'm just pointing out that God isn't some legalist sitting up there with his checkbook, and making sure that everyone he accepts has first been dunked underwater by those with the proper authority and all in the right manner. God does not look at things the way men look at things. God looks at the heart. Baptism is effective only in how it changes one's heart, and there are many things besides baptism that can change the heart. David Miller wrote: >> We believe that the Mormon system has hidden the >> Kingdom of God from you. The Mormon system >> has returned people to a kind of Old Testament religion >> whereby you primarily look for the Messiah to come. DAVEH: > LOL........We are one of the few religions who believe > he has recently paid us a visit! I've known several people who have seen Jesus. I've known many more who have received revelation in modern times. From my perspective, Mormons do not act like those who believe in continuing revelation, but like those Protestants who deny continuing revelation. Even among evangelicals who might not understand modern revelation, they teach that Messiah is all about a personal relationship with him. In other words, you receive Jesus into your heart and become born again. Mormons fail to grasp even this simple truth, instead looking back to their great prophet, and looking forward to a salvation that is yet to come. In that way, the Mormon religion keeps people from seeing the kingdom of God, the reign of God, that is here right now for those who believe. DaveH wrote: > I've mentioned the PS 82:6 comment about "Ye are gods" > which contrasts what I understand Protestantism teaches. > I think Perry suggested that 'gods' there referred to judges, > but I fail to see where that argument holds any water..... > especially since Jesus quoted it to confound his detractors. > > So DavidM.......I do understand that Protestants don't believe > there are any gods besides Jesus, but that doesn't square with > Holy Scripture. How and why do you (Protestants) seemingly > ignore this? To me, it is obvious that there were many gods, > but only one whom Israel was expected to worship. How do > you see it, DavidM? Do you believe there many gods as Psalms > infers??? The term "Elohim" is a general term that not only applies to God himself, but to those who act in his place. It can refer to angels so sent (in Hebrew Scriptures, the "angel of the Lord," and to judges and magistrates who administer justice. Jesus was pointing out a fallacy in the logic of his detractors by basically saying, "if the Scriptures called those of old, Elohim, how can you complain if I say about myself that I am the son of Elohim?" His point wasn't about how there are many gods, but that his language was not as strong as the language of Scripture concerning those who represent Yahweh. David Miller wrote: >> I'm curious about something. What exactly do you >> think it would take to show you that Mormonism is >> false? DAVEH: > LOL.......Perhaps the same thing that would show you > your belief is false. David Miller wrote: >> If I could show you that Joseph Smith was a fraud, would >> you reject Mormonism? If I could discredit the Pearl of >> Great Price as a fraud, would that convince you? I know >> it is a difficult question, but what would it take? DAVEH: > ROTFLOL.......Perhaps you would have to show that Jesus > is false, since he is the foundation of my religion. Well, surely you must recognize that your foundation is more than Jesus. What makes you a Mormon and me not? Isn't it your belief in Joseph Smith as a true prophet, and your acceptance of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price as Holy Scripture? If you stopped believing in Joseph Smith and his writings, wouldn't you then have only Jesus as your foundation and be a Christian in a way that the other non-Mormons on TruthTalk are? Again, I just wonder, if I could show you that Joseph Smith was a fraud, would you reject Mormonism? Or, would you be like other Mormons who have seen him to be a fraud, but stayed in Mormonism anyway? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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