DAVEH: > Once again, DavidM, I am indebted to you for your > explanation. I wish someone had defined this (from > a Protestant perspective) for me like this a couple > years ago.
I did post these kind of statements years ago, but maybe you were not ready to hear them then. Or, maybe you were distracted by other posts such that you didn't really catch my points. David Miller wrote: >> A person is saved from sin when they believe upon Jesus Christ. DAVEH: > I assume you are saying a person can still sin and still > believe in JC at the same time? Belief in Jesus Christ means a trust and confidence in him. There are different ways in which a believer might be saved from sin. He might trust Jesus to save him from the consequences of sin (eternal damnation), or he might trust Jesus to deliver him from the power of sin (from the habitual, slaving nature that sinning brings upon a person), or he might trust Jesus to deliver him from all forms of sinful temptation, such that he will not sin again. Ultimately, Jesus wants us to believe him for all these things, but if a person only understands that he is saved from eternal damnation, then his initial experience with being delivered from sin might just be a freedom from the guilt associated with it. I do believe that Jesus will reveal more of his plan when that person opens his heart to it. DaveH wrote: > I would assume that you believe the penalty for that sin > (that is of an unsaved person) is to be burned in the > lake of fire....correct? Yes, that is one penalty for sin. David Miller wrote: >> A person is saved from this world system when >> they enter the Kingdom of God. DAVEH: > Regarding the "Kingdom of God", I assume you are > referring to heaven? No. DaveH wrote: > Certainly not a "church"...., as I understand you. No, not a church. DaveH wrote: > Or do you define KofG differently? If you are defining > it as "heaven", then it seems like your definition of "saved" > would be very similar to mine. The Kingdom of God is within us. It is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. DaveH wrote: > do you think it possible that a mortal enter the > KofG while still in mortality??? YES! And that is what it means to be saved and born again. When a person enters the Kingdom of God while in mortality, he is known as a saved person. He has left this world system and entered the Kingdom of God. His citizenship now is in heaven, even while he lives on this earth. He becomes an alien to this planet as his real existence and source of all things is in the heavens with God. David Miller wrote: >> 2. Must a person be baptized to no longer be part of this world? DAVEH: > You are losing me on this. Literally......to be "no longer be > part of this world", one must die. You are talking like the disciples when they murmured whether Jesus was concerned that they did not bring bread, when Jesus had said, "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." The Scriptures teach us about a new birth needed whereby men leave this world system and enter God's kingdom. Consider the following passage of Scripture: "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:17) Notice how Jesus says that the "world" cannot receive the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit). Does that mean that people must die before they can receive the Holy Spirit? In a physical sense, no, but in a spiritual sense, yes, they must die. They must die to themselves and all their desires to keep their life. They must make Jesus the Lord of their life and forsake all for Jesus. When they have done this, they depart this world system and begin to see the kingdom of God. David Miller wrote: >> 3. Must a person be baptized in order to receive the Holy Ghost? DAVEH: > Yes and no. > I believe one can be influenced by the HG without even > knowing of Jesus. Yes, so do I. DaveH wrote: > And, I believe that many people have felt his > influence throughout history. For example, > LDS theology teaches that Columbus was thus > inspired to set sail for the New World. To > me, that does not mean that he was saved, or > that he was necessarily even a Christian. It > simply means that the Lord works his will in > many ways using many people who we may > not realize are motivated by the Spirit of God. Fair enough, but there is a special experience of not just being influenced by the Holy Spirit, but being baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is called "receiving the Holy Spirit" in the New Testament. Jesus said that those of the world cannot receive the Holy Spirit, so that means that one must depart from the world before he can 1) see the Kingdom of God, and 2) enter the Kingdom of God. So a person who has received the Holy Spirit must first depart this world system, believe on Jesus Christ, and enter the Kingdom of God. If he has not been saved in this way, then he cannot receive the Holy Spirit. A person who has received the Holy Spirit has been saved, and so if a person has received the Holy Spirit, and he has not been baptized, then baptism is not necessary for salvation. Please note that baptism might still be considered useful and a vehicle whereby people come into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but we do not say that God rejects all those who have not been baptized, because the evidence is clear that God has received those who had not been baptized. DaveH wrote: > At essentially the same time, the gift of the Holy > Ghost is conferred to those who make that covenant > by the laying on of hands. What happens when a person receives the Holy Ghost in this manner within Mormonism? Is there any evidence of the Holy Spirit? Or is there simply an expectation that the influence of the Holy Spirit will be constant instead of sporadic because of the covenant now made with God? David Miller wrote: >> We would say that a person who has left this world, >> entered the Kingdom of God, and received the Holy >> Ghost, is saved. DAVEH: > To me, that sounds like 'death', but I don't think that's > the way you perceive it. I'm talking about an internal death to this natural life. I'm talking about what it means to become a spiritual man. DAVEH: > I agree with you on that. I just wonder where we disagree! > To me (and if I read you right, to you too), we are 'saved' > now, because the Lord has made it possible for us to return > to our Father in Heaven. That doesn't mean that we will > necessarily get there though. If we betray our covenants, > then we stray from the path Jesus walked as he leads us > Home. Perhaps you disagree with my last comment......? I agree with all of this, including this last comment. Where we differ is in our understanding of what it means to be saved now, while in our mortal existence. We believe that the Mormon system has hidden the Kingdom of God from you. The Mormon system has returned people to a kind of Old Testament religion whereby you primarily look for the Messiah to come. Yet, the way into the Kingdom of God has already come, and those who truly believe in Jesus Christ enter it and receive the Holy Spirit. It is difficult to evangelize Mormons because you have much of the same terminology, but you define it in different ways, so that the concepts of the Kingdom of God, salvation, being born again, and receiving the Holy Spirit are difficult to convey. You think you already know what we are talking about, but you don't. You think you already have the Holy Spirit when all you have is his influence. Obviously if you think your covenant with God has brought you more than anybody else can get on this planet, how could any "good news" of the kingdom of God enter your heart except you first see that Mormonism is not a true religion of God? I'm curious about something. What exactly do you think it would take to show you that Mormonism is false? If I could show you that Joseph Smith was a fraud, would you reject Mormonism? If I could discredit the Pearl of Great Price as a fraud, would that convince you? I know it is a difficult question, but what would it take? Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
