� David Miller wrote:
> � > David Miller wrote: > >> A person is saved from sin when they believe upon Jesus Christ. > > DAVEH: > > I assume you are saying a person can still sin and still > > believe in JC at the same time? > > Belief in Jesus Christ means a trust and confidence in him. DAVEH:� I would think belief is more than that.� To me it means to follow in his footsteps----to do his will and keep his commandments.�� Do you associate belief with keeping his commandments? > �There are > different ways in which a believer might be saved from sin.� He might trust > Jesus to save him from the consequences of sin (eternal damnation), or he > might trust Jesus to deliver him from the power of sin (from the habitual, > slaving nature that sinning brings upon a person), or he might trust Jesus > to deliver him from all forms of sinful temptation, such that he will not > sin again. DAVEH:� What if that trust were incorrectly understood?� Those referred to by Jesus in Mt 7:21-23 meet thought their belief would save them, but in fact it drew our Savior's criticism.� Clearly their belief was lacking some form of commitment.� Perhaps they had neither a covenant with the Lord, or as I have mentioned in the past.....they did not have the proper authority to perform those 'wonderful works'. > Ultimately, Jesus wants us to believe him for all these things, > but if a person only understands that he is saved from eternal damnation, > then his initial experience with being delivered from sin might just be a > freedom from the guilt associated with it. DAVEH:� Which may be less than full salvation, as those mentioned in vs 23 found out! > �I do believe that Jesus will > reveal more of his plan when that person opens his heart to it. > > DaveH wrote: > > I would assume that you believe the penalty for that sin > > (that is of an unsaved person) is to be burned in the > > lake of fire....correct? > > Yes, that is one penalty for sin. DAVEH:� Are there others?� What else befalls those who transgress?� (Or are you thinking of penalties in this life....like jail time, loss of family, etc.?)� I was referring to the penalties in the post-mortal existence. > David Miller wrote: > >> A person is saved from this world system when > >> they enter the Kingdom of God. > > DAVEH: > > Regarding the "Kingdom of God", I assume you are > > referring to heaven? > > No. > DaveH wrote: > > Certainly not a "church"...., as I understand you. > > No, not a church. > > DaveH wrote: > > Or do you define KofG differently? If you are defining > > it as "heaven", then it seems like your definition of "saved" > > would be very similar to mine. > > The Kingdom of God is within us.� It is righteousness, peace and joy in the > Holy Ghost. DAVEH:� Ahhhhhh.....thanx.� Is that the kingdom referred to by Daniel (2:44-45), or is Daniel referring to something else?� From our (LDS) perspective, it is the Church of Jesus Christ in this mortal existence, and the Celestial Kingdom in heaven. > DaveH wrote: > > do you think it possible that a mortal enter the > > KofG while still in mortality??? > > YES!� And that is what it means to be saved and born again.� When a person > enters the Kingdom of God while in mortality, he is known as a saved person. > He has left this world system and entered the Kingdom of God.� His > citizenship now is in heaven, even while he lives on this earth.� He becomes > an alien to this planet as his real existence and source of all things is in > the heavens with God. DAVEH:� Thanx for the additional explanation. > David Miller wrote: > >> 2. Must a person be baptized to no longer be part of this world? > > DAVEH: > > You are losing me on this. Literally......to be "no longer be > > part of this world", one must die. > > You are talking like the disciples when they murmured whether Jesus was > concerned that they did not bring bread, when Jesus had said, "beware of the > leaven of the Pharisees." > > The Scriptures teach us about a new birth needed whereby men leave this > world system and enter God's kingdom.� Consider the following passage of > Scripture: > > "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth > him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and > shall be in you."� (John 14:17) > > Notice how Jesus says that the "world" cannot receive the Spirit of truth > (the Holy Spirit).� Does that mean that people must die before they can > receive the Holy Spirit?� In a physical sense, no, but in a spiritual sense, > yes, they must die.� They must die to themselves and all their desires to > keep their life.� They must make Jesus the Lord of their life and forsake > all for Jesus.� When they have done this, they depart this world system and > begin to see the kingdom of God. DAVEH:� I understand. > David Miller wrote: > >> 3. Must a person be baptized in order to receive the Holy Ghost? > > DAVEH: > > Yes and no. > > I believe one can be influenced by the HG without even > > knowing of Jesus. > > Yes, so do I. > > DaveH wrote: > > And, I believe that many people have felt his > > influence throughout history. For example, > > LDS theology teaches that Columbus was thus > > inspired to set sail for the New World. To > > me, that does not mean that he was saved, or > > that he was necessarily even a Christian. It > > simply means that the Lord works his will in > > many ways using many people who we may > > not realize are motivated by the Spirit of God. > > Fair enough, but there is a special experience of not just being influenced > by the Holy Spirit, but being baptized in the Holy Spirit.� This is called > "receiving the Holy Spirit" in the New Testament. DAVEH:� Agreed.� We refer to this as baptism by fire (the Holy Spirit is that divine influence what burns within to guide us in living as Christ desires) and do it by the laying on of hands to receive the 'Gift of the Holy Ghost'. > Jesus said that those of the world cannot receive the Holy Spirit, so that > means that one must depart from the world before he can 1) see the Kingdom > of God, and 2) enter the Kingdom of God.� So a person who has received the > Holy Spirit must first depart this world system, believe on Jesus Christ, > and enter the Kingdom of God.� If he has not been saved in this way, then he > cannot receive the Holy Spirit.� A person who has received the Holy Spirit > has been saved, DAVEH:� That's where you are losing me.....above you suggested that some may be under the influence of the HS without knowing Christ.� So......I guess you would then say they have not 'received' the HS.�� Is there any defining moment where one transitions from being under the influence (of the HS) and receiving the HS?� I assume it is the point where one really 'believes/accepts/trusts' Jesus, which is a mental/spiritual state as opposed to a convenantal rite such as baptism? > and so if a person has received the Holy Spirit, and he has > not been baptized, then baptism is not necessary for salvation. DAVEH:� I guess that answers my previous question!� :-) > �Please note > that baptism might still be considered useful and a vehicle whereby people > come into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but we do not say that God > rejects all those who have not been baptized, because the evidence is clear > that God has received those who had not been baptized. DAVEH:� Obviously that isn't so clear to me!� The baptism for the dead issue would seem to support my side of that discussion. > DaveH wrote: > > At essentially the same time, the gift of the Holy > > Ghost is conferred to those who make that covenant > > by the laying on of hands. > > What happens when a person receives the Holy Ghost in this manner within > Mormonism?� Is there any evidence of the Holy Spirit?� Or is there simply an > expectation that the influence of the Holy Spirit will be constant instead > of sporadic because of the covenant now made with God? DAVEH:� The Lords promise (of the HG residing within) is part of the covenant.� If we fail to keep our part of the covenant, we can't expect the HG to continue to influence our decisions as he will withdraw.� (I wouldn't expect a divine presence to inhabit a filthy vessel.)� The manifestations of the HG can be varied and sometimes evidenced by miracles while other times is simply privately evidenced by his guiding influence, which includes a testimony of the Lord and his gospel. > David Miller wrote: > >> We would say that a person who has left this world, > >> entered the Kingdom of God, and received the Holy > >> Ghost, is saved. > > DAVEH: > > To me, that sounds like 'death', but I don't think that's > > the way you perceive it. > > I'm talking about an internal death to this natural life.� I'm talking about > what it means to become a spiritual man. DAVEH:� OK > DAVEH: > > I agree with you on that. I just wonder where we disagree! > > To me (and if I read you right, to you too), we are 'saved' > > now, because the Lord has made it possible for us to return > > to our Father in Heaven. That doesn't mean that we will > > necessarily get there though. If we betray our covenants, > > then we stray from the path Jesus walked as he leads us > > Home. Perhaps you disagree with my last comment......? > > I agree with all of this, including this last comment.� Where we differ is > in our understanding of what it means to be saved now, while in our mortal > existence. DAVEH:� I concur.� For me, salvation in the present is the promise that if we keep our covenants, we will be able to return to heaven. > We believe that the Mormon system has hidden the Kingdom of God from you. > The Mormon system has returned people to a kind of Old Testament religion > whereby you primarily look for the Messiah to come. DAVEH:� LOL........We are one of the few religions who believe he has recently paid us a visit! > Yet, the way into the > Kingdom of God has already come, and those who truly believe in Jesus Christ > enter it and receive the Holy Spirit.� It is difficult to evangelize Mormons > because you have much of the same terminology, but you define it in > different ways, DAVEH:� Agreed.� But we are not reluctant to admit those differences and mutually discuss those differences. > so that the concepts of the Kingdom of God, salvation, being > born again, and receiving the Holy Spirit are difficult to convey.� You > think you already know what we are talking about, but you don't. DAVEH:� Excuse me, DavidM.....but that's why I'm here....to try to understand those differences.� I have never pretended to know what Protestants believe.� That's why I'm asking questions.� What I fail to grasp is why you believe the way you do.� For instance, I've mentioned the PS 82:6 comment about "Ye are gods" which contrasts what I understand Protestantism teaches.� I think Perry suggested that 'gods' there referred to judges, but I fail to see where that argument holds any water.....especially since Jesus quoted it to confound his detractors. ��� So DavidM.......I do understand that Protestants don't believe there are any gods besides Jesus, but that doesn't square with Holy Scripture.�� How and why do you (Protestants) seemingly ignore this?� To me, it is obvious that there were many gods, but only one whom Israel was expected to worship.� How do you see it, DavidM?� Do you believe there many gods as Psalms infers??? > �You think > you already have the Holy Spirit when all you have is his influence. > Obviously if you think your covenant with God has brought you more than > anybody else can get on this planet, how could any "good news" of the > kingdom of God enter your heart except you first see that Mormonism is not a > true religion of God? DAVEH:� I assume that is a rhetorical question..... > I'm curious about something.� What exactly do you think it would take to > show you that Mormonism is false? DAVEH:� LOL.......Perhaps the same thing that would show you your belief is false. > �If I could show you that Joseph Smith was > a fraud, would you reject Mormonism?� If I could discredit the Pearl of > Great Price as a fraud, would that convince you?� I know it is a difficult > question, but what would it take? DAVEH:� ROTFLOL.......Perhaps you would have to show that Jesus is false, since he is the foundation of my religion. > Peace be with you. > David Miller. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ � ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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