Charles Perry Locke wrote:
DaveH,DAVEH: Thanx for saying that, but from what you said below....I'm not sure you really do, Perry.I understand, David, what you are saying.
I just judge your intentions byDAVEH: I don't know why you would say that. What actions do I take that are not in keeping with my reasons for being here? Do I try to convert TTers? Do I make fun of their beliefs? Do I try to divide you folks? Just what is it that I do that you find so objectionable??? So far, the worst complaint I remember hearing is that I am too polite.....Yikes....can that really be a crime in TT!?!?!?!?
your actions, and they have not matched your words, thats all.
Maybe you areDAVEH: Figured what out, Perry? Just what have you figured out is the reason I am here IF it is not my stated reason???
not aware of it, but I am not the only TT'r who has figured this out.
As far as the Baptism example, I myself have spoken to you quite plainlyDAVEH: Hmmmm.....Like my belief that God is a deity in the form of a man? I suppose there are some TTers who take exception with that, preferring to think of God as some nebulous spirit that is everywhere, yet nowhere. Well Perry....Yes, I do believe Jesus is the Son of Man.....I assume that is one you think I took out of context.....? If God is not a deified man, then how do you describe him? As a spirit? Yes, somebody mention that, and I agreed.....but being a spirit doesn't say much more about him than it does us, as we are spirits too, and are to worship him in spirit and truth. Yes, Perry.....it is my LDS biased belief that God has a body, with body parts.....such as hands, etc. He begat a Son, having the same body parts, is also in his express image. And that Son now has a glorified resurrected physical body of flesh and bones.......why should I not think God, his Father, has a similar body???
about it, especially as laid out in John 3:5, but you are not open to seeing
it any way other than the patented LDS way. You ignore the context
completely and make the verse mean what you want it to mean...in order to
support your LDS belief,
even though there is ample evidence in the text toDAVEH: That reminds me of our discussion about oneness.....I explained that I believe the oneness of Jesus and his Father is one of purpose, for which you decried me. I believe there is ample evidence in the text to agree with me.....Did you read the rest of Jn 17? If so, it would be hard for anybody not to think oneness is related to purpose, since we are to be one with God as Jesus is one with God. But....I digress....
explain it.
So, what good does it do for me (or anyone) to explain anythingDAVEH: First I'm accused of not using the Bible enough.....now you are accusing me of using the Bible too much?!?!?!
to you, especially when you are using the Holy Scruipture
to prooftext LDSDAVEH: Go ahead Perry, explain to me how I am prooftexting in my belief that the oneness of God and Jesus and ourselves is not related to purpose.... And....I hope you don't consider equating the oneness of God to purpose as heresy....??? As you may remember, you somewhat agreed that purpose is at least a part of the oneness of God. How else to you explain oneness, Perry?
heresy?
I want to talk to people that are open to the truth, not people thatDAVEH: Is there anybody on TT who does not think they know the truth even when they disagree with others who think the same way?
think that they are the only ones with the truth...
you already have theDAVEH: Does it have to make sense to you, Perry? Nevertheless, I've explained it several times and you still fail to see the importance (to me) of being on TT. Isn't that what you accused me of......hearing your (and other TTers) explanations and not understanding them? Why is it disingenuous for me to not understand you after you attempted to answer my questions, and it is not disingenuous for you not to understand me? I'll explain it again, Perry......
mindset that Protestants are wrong, so it is fruitless. Besides, I do not
even know WHY you want to know what protestants believe since you are the
only one that knows the truth on TT (well, Blaine, too). If you are not on
TT to learn the truth, then why spend your hours listening to untruth...you
could be serving God in some useful way...or do you see TT as your armchair
mission field? I just can't figure it out, Dave. Makes no sense at all to
me.
My LDS world is very narrowly defined. I think (due to my LDS biases) that many Protestant beliefs are out of whack with what I see in the Bible, not to say latter-day scriptures too. It is not easy for me to hunt up a Protestant to ask a lot of questions I have curiosity about, and certainly not at the times I have available....which are many times late at night. In theory, TT offers the perfect venue for me to quiz guys like you about what you believe. However, my theory is weak I think. First, I don't think TT represents an average cross-section of Protestants. I could be wrong, but I suspect many TTers would have trouble fitting into a normal Protestant church setting. I don't know about you, Perry.....but, DavidM has mentioned a few instances where he did not quite fit into specific religious setting. And when I listen to some of the other street preachers, I would be surprised if they spend much time listening to a pastor sermonizing every Sunday.
So....I ask myself....are the guys on TT normal Protestants, or am I getting a skewed version of Protestant beliefs. I have spoken to non TT Protestants, and I occasionally listen to Christian talk radio to know that there is a far more diverse doctrinal perspective reflected in the Protestant world than I see on TT. But I think some of the non TT Protestants I meet are not well versed in theology. And they may be a bit more timid to feel comfortable discussing theology with a Mormon. One is an employee, and I have to be careful to avoid getting tangled in a legal web.
So.....that brings me back to TT. At least there are a few TTers who are not too timid to chat with me. And.....you guys are pretty well versed. The problem I'm running into is that some prefer to do battle rather than discuss ideas, opinions and beliefs. If I show no signs of wanting to leave Mormonism and embrace the beliefs of those I'm chatting with, some folks get their noses bent all out of shape.
Well Perry, if you feel it is fruitless to chat with me.....I understand your frustration at not being able to change me. If you don't want to waste your time chatting with a Mormon....then it is OK with me if you choose to spend your time more productively on somebody (Blaine perhaps?!?!?!) else you feel apt to convert.
But....for you to say that you can't figure me out......well Perry, to me that seems a little disingenuous----considering I've explained it to you more than once. NOW does it make sense to you, Perry???
Furthermore, saying that you are not on TT to learn the truth has bornDAVEH: Well, Perry......You seem to have trouble understanding why I am on TT despite me explaining it numerous times. Why does it not surprise me you don't understand LDS theology as I do.
itself out many times. Kevin has posted many manystatements published in LDS
literature by your own leaders, historians, and other repected LDS men that
directly contradict the BoM, the D&C, JS, themselves, each other, and even
your beliefs. And regardless of how opposite the statements are, how
ludicrous, how contradictory, you always state that it's a "mormon thang"
[my words for your and Blaine's excuse]. You hide behind the idea that since
we are not LDS, we can't understand the coherency and logical beauty of what
we protestant idiots see as a contradiction.
Now.....about Kevins posts.....I skim them and then file them. He doesn't ask questions very often, and when he does they seem to be of a rhetorical nature. Kevin and other TTers (including you) feel LDS theology is contradictive.....so what! I don't feel it is my job to convert you to Mormonism or to explain away all the presumed contradictions you perceive in Mormonism. To me it is far from contradictive.....and to me, that is what counts. In fact, to me it pretty well explains the contradictions of Protestant theology as I understand it. Maybe that is why I feel so comfortable with LDS theology.
Hogwash. The LDS are constantlyDAVEH: I bet you are only saying that to endear me to your way of thinking, eh Perry! :-)
doing the mormon Shuffle (a.k.a tyhe Utah Sidestep) to cover up the
inconsistent and contradictory nature of the LDS church. "Oh what tangled
webs we weave...".
Peace,--
Perry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
