From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Sorry to jump into your discussion, DaveH,
DAVEH: No problem, Perry. I appreciate your viewpoint and comments.
but I think something important needs to be pointed out with respect to the LDS view of Angels, Jesus, and humans.
DAVEH wrote: If Jesus could pre-exist, why not others? Jer 1:4-5 seems evidential. And, Job (38:4-7) speaks of the morning stars and sons of God pre-existing..... I presume most Protestants believe angels pre-existed. Of course, Paul (Eph 1:4-5) suggests our pre-mortal existence as well. So Slade......Is there anything in the Bible the precludes man's pre-mortal existence in the form of spirits?
Christians do not consider Angels, Jesus, or humans to be of the same nature, or "stuff". We do not consider Jesus to be our literal spirit brother in the pre-existence, or to be the brother of the fallen angel Lucifer, as the LDS do.
DAVEH: I understand that, and am not expecting you to believe as I do. I'm trying to figure out why you believe as you do. (I know.....you've heard that before, but please bear with me on this for a bit.)
We consider Jesus to be one person of the Trinity, all of which are God. Angels are created beings distinct in nature from humans. They most likely pre-existed human creation, and humans are a unique creation apart from angels. Humans did not pre-exist their birth as spirits.
DAVEH: That is the part that I'm trying to find out about your (and Slade's) belief. What is it that makes you think spirits could not have been created prior to mortality? There must be some passages in the Bible that lead you to that conclusion? Or.....is it merely traditional Protestant dogma that has instilled such a belief?
First, none of the churches that I have attended, no commentaries that I have read, and none of the teachers I have learned under ever even suggested that there may have been a spiritual existence prior to life. This leads me to believe that it is not, and never has been, a common Christian belief.
Second, I find no positive evidence, i.e., nowhere in the Bible where it is positively stated that there was no pre-existence of humans, but then again I find no positive statements iondicating that there is, either. I agree with Slades's comment that the foreknowledge of God accounts for any biblical statements that suggest a pre-existence to you.
In LDS lore there seems to be only one type of being, which during it's existence may progress through several stages...spirit, angel, man, and god (I believe you call this "eternal progression"). This is like insect progression...egg, larva, pupa, and adult. The LDS jesus is not distinct in the LDS model. He is just another insect making his eternal march toward LDS godhood.
DAVEH: You are mixing some truths as to what I believe with some inaccuracies. Your assumption that /Jesus is not distinct/ is incorrect. Jesus was not progressing toward Godhood.....he was God prior to his mortal life. However, he consisted of only spirit form prior to his birth.
Now, I find that interesting because of the LDS thought (paraphrasing) that what man is, god once was, what god is, man shall become. Wasn't the LDS god once a man, and his god (father) once a man, and his god (father) once a man, etc. Why did the LDS jesus get to circumvent this seemingly natural order of the LDs eternal progression of gods? You know, the Bible does not support any this.
After his resurrection, he then consisted of a spirit body clothed with an exalted physical body of flesh and bone. From what I've learned on TT, I assume that is not too much different than what you might believe?
Well, aside from the fact that we are trying to compare the fictional LDS jesus with the real Jesus, a comparison I find mainly a useless exercise and a waste of time, some of the words and thoughts do parallel each other, but I do not think spiritual reality is at all like the LDS think it is.
BTW Perry......I have not forgotten our previous /quick and dead/ discussion. I've done a little studying of it, but need to do much more. It really is a topic that interests me, and I do intend to get back to it as I have time. I just don't feel knowledgeable at this point to discuss it much.
Hey, whenever you get around to it. Let me know if you want off the hook. No problem. I have made my point, and if there were any readily available examples to support your interpretation I am sure they would have popped up pretty quickly. Did you get your interpretation from the Bible, or from some LDS dogma?
Perry
Sort of like insects...eggs, larvae, pupae, then adult insects.
Perry
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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