RE: [TruthTalk] Moralism versus Christianity

[ShieldsFamily]

Lance, until YOU (not Jonathan) define what you mean by moralism, we can’t discuss it any further.  Luv, Iz   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moralism versus Christianity   Iz:Ooooo good point. However, as I started this ball rolling I must then assume this remark to be directed at myself. Isn't it good to have Jonathan back?(Jonathan, please don't self-exile again. Pretty please?) Garf, I wish I could write like that!(J & B-Oops, that's Scotch)   An acquaintance has identified the largest entry point of heresy into the church as sunday school. Who teaches SS? Why parents of course. Do these parents teach (their children) at home what they teach in SS? Probably. What is this most common heresy? Moralism!!  ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 20, 2004 23:56 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Moralism versus Christianity   Jonathan, the Church of St. Louis (with the winning Cardinals!) greets the Church of Patmos (with no team at all)!  Actually, there are TWO kinds of moralism.  One is doing moral things because one loves the Lord and Lawgiver from their whole heart.  The other is doing moral things for all the wrong reasons (ie: social mores or whatever).  Obviously the first category means MUCH more to the Lord than the second.  However, God will judge a nation that is IMMORAL in it’s behavior MUCH more harshly than He will judge a nation with MORAL (albeit with the wrong motives) behavior.  And, lastly to be sure, He will REWARD any person or nation who acts morally out of a true devotion to HIM.  He does judge our behavior.  He does also know our heart.  Good behavior is a step in the right direction to correcting the heart’s attitudes. (Otherwise, why do we train up a child in the way he should go?  He doesn’t start out giving a turnip about whether or not his room is clean.) Izzy   PS Why would one walking in love assume that when I use the word “moral” that it would not be assumed to be from a heart subjected to Him? Aren’t we to assume the best of one another; not the worst?   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Moralism versus Christianity   Greetings all,   I am writing from my self-imposed exile.  All is well here on the island of Patmos.   Just a quick note for this conversation which I have re-titled as I am afraid that the point is being missed and that there is a lot of talking past one another. What Lance, Terry and Izzy are saying are all flying past one another.  I do think that moralism and Christianity are diametrically opposed.  Bill could write all this up much better than myself.  Perhaps he will correct where I am off here.  My apologies for using the Canadian/British spelling of behaviour.  J   Lance is saying that there is no hope, no life, no godliness in moralism.  Moralism is the practice of moral behaviour.  Moral behaviour is taught by society.  What we determine to be moral as a nation may not be what another nation may think (I wrote about how having a mistress in Malta is considered by many of the populace as normal, whereas having a mistress in North America is considered adultery).  In our lifetimes we are seeing a wide swing regarding homosexuality; it is moving from being considered immoral to moral (i.e. acceptable).  When my father was young chewing gum in school was considered immoral.   The problem with moralism (keeping good social morals) is that it is completely disconnected from God.  Morals properly placed in a subjective manner to God are good.  For example, the Torah laws are good as long as they are placed subservient to the lawgiver God.  To just follow the laws apart from a relationship with God earns one nothing but it does give the illusion of progress (i.e the Pharisees followed the laws and were indeed legally righteous; what they missed was the lawgiver – this is moralism.  It is no more new today than it was then).  In other words, morality (which can be defined as good behaviour, even desired holy behaviour) divorced from God avails nothing but an illusion.  The illusion itself is powerful.  It is this illusion that makes some think that we live in moral, godly nations.  The precepts our countries were built on have been detached from a relationship with their Creator.   What the founding fathers wrote is great stuff, as long as it is placed within the framework of who God is.  Without God, it turns into a legal matter, a moralistic issue instead of a spiritual issue.  In society it becomes moralism; in the church it becomes religion.   Let me give another quick example.  Imagine that I behaved completely moral to my wife.  I did everything right, treated her kindly, never cheated on her and was always polite.  It would not take my wife long to see through me; although I did nothing legally wrong to her, without the love that God has placed in my heart for her my behaviour is empty.  My behaviour was spot on, my heart was not.  Moralism is like this.  My behaviour, while noteworthy (others who saw how well I treated my wife would be jealous of our marriage) lacked the basis in relationship.    Legislating moral behaviour is a whole other post…..   Back to exile with me!   Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Gay Marriage Roll Call Vote   In a message dated 7/20/2004 9:05:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lance, I’ve been wanting to ask you this.  Would you please clarify what it is you have against “morality”?  Please define morality.  (To me it means making moral choices vs immoral choices, which means choosing sinless choices over sinful choices.) Izzy A great question.   And your (Izzy) exchange with Bill was as interesting to me as was Bill's comments.   Did you change the color of your hair?   ;-) John