Romans 4 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Notice that the sign was given AFTER the righteousness was imputed, while he was yet UNcircumsised:
FAITH Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
SIGN Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 4/7/2005 2:41:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John in orange this post.
jt: "That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" is how the verse goes JD. It's a process that does not happen by way of the incarnation JD. In fact this will never happen without our cooperation in the process of sanctification..
On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:30:54 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Et al: I have been doing a little thinking about various aspects of my counseling ministry in view of the triune considerations. And I see, almost daily, the value of the teaching. In II Cor 5:21, we are told that Christ became sin (assumed all sin) so that in Him, we might become righteous. Righteousness in II Cor is a gift of grace.
JD: I disagree. In 5:21, we have an EVENT (the assumption of sin by Christ on the cross) that is credited with the creation of "righteousness in Him." We assume His righteousness in this II Cor passage.
jt: Hate to disagree with one of the Gk Brigade here but study 2 Cor 5:21 some more without a closed mind and you will see that the word made is used twice and there is a different Gk word each time."He was made sin is
Strongs #4160 poieo (to make or do, execute, exercise) that we might be made Strongs #1096 ginomai (to cause to be or generate, to become or come into being, be brought to pass, come to pass, continue, grow, happen). So you see JD it is something other than a one time event, especially in light of what follows; 6:1 reads "We then as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain" So obviously it is not a "done deal" JD.
Strong gives you the lexical usage -- not the grammatical usage. The word in question "ginomia" is written in the subjunctive (2) aorist. In plain language, we have an activity ("might be made") that is conditional upon the action of Christ (assuming sin) and a done deal (aorist tense -- which is a past tense). When we are attached to Christ, we take on His righteousness !! This in no wise argues against personal involvement -- but it does change the purpose of our involvement. The Expositor's Bible Commentary on II Cor 5:21 puts it this way: "but here [5:21] Paul says that 'in Christ' the believer in some sense actually shares the righteousness that characterizes God himself." If you turn to I Cor. 1:30, and read that text, you will find that Christ is the source (for us) of wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
In Romans "faith" is exchanged for "righteousness." No "process" is implied. We "cooperate" because this has already happened, not to facilitate it's occurence in our lives. Such a statement parallels with Romans 4 and the claim that His faith (or "faith" ----- let's not argue on this) is exchanged for our righteousness. The point being that we are made righteous by Another.
jt: So whose faith did Abraham have that was counted to Him for righteousness?
You are ignoring the comments made in the above. "Whose faith did Abraham have ..." is a question of no consequence and I even asked you to avoid the argument and allowed for "faith" to be used in the way you understand it. It is right there in the text (above). THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS: "faith" has been considered IN THE PLACE OF OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is the fact of this passage. Take that meaning away and you have nothing of importance from this text. You make it meaningless. There has to be another point of view - another interpretation.
ALL theologies have their problematic concerns. All of them. Which should say something for having our "being" defined by our relationship with Christ (there is your "process") as opposed to knowledge ( I Cor 8:1-3).
Now, here is good question. Without sounding like I am backing off on "grace through faith salvation," I will say that
jt: God's Word itself has no problematic concerns - What do you think I mean by the wording "problematic concerns?" the doctrines of men are what make things complicated. You over-simpliy the contributing problems.
JD: But, to answer your question. There is little doubt, IMO, that in a reading of Gen 15:5,6, the "faith" spoken of there is that of Abraham. He was counted "righteous" at that moment (a problematic passage for your theology, as well, I might add, with gusto.) Some may have missed my rather subtle solution to this problem.
jt: Not a problem for me JD Nor is it for me -- I just presented the solution !!! since I don't accept just gazing up at the stars as the evidence of "faith" referred to by scripture. You might not want to accept this, but that is the situation in Genesis 15:5,6. He was declared "righteous" as the moment of "faith." There was nothing he could, that evening, except look to the heavens. In fact the NT faith chapter cites different corresponding action "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God" (Heb 11:8-10) So Paul and the writer of Genesis are full of the brown proverbial ? Common Judy -- you make void this Genesis passage with such reasoning.
JD: Recently, I have talked about "our faith attached to His faith." ( I must add that I have seen this solution in the writings of others -- I only adopted the solution) And this is one of the passages of thought that gives me a defense for this solution. There are TWO passages the help to define Romans 4:3, 11. I use the 4:3 and 11 as a single thought -- Abraham's justification is ours and for the same reason, per 4:3 and 11. Genesis 15:5,6 is one of two defining passages. Abraham only looks to the stars and believes -- and BAM -- he is "righteous. His faith is in play. Abraham's own faith.
jt: I don't think so JD. Faith must have some corresponding action or it is dead being alone (James 2:17-20,26). I'd scrap those misleading writers if I were you. You mean Moses and Paul? They are the one's who make this conclusion.
JD: But Romans 4:5 (this is the 2nd passages of which I speak) - an immediate contextual statement - says this: But to the one not working but believing on the one justifying the ungodly, (taht would be Chrsit) is accounted the faith of him (Christ) for righteousness. " That Paul sees "Christ" in this example is somewhat of a theological surprise because, apart from Paul, we might not see this connection at all. Paul sees Christ in this Abrahamic illustration (Gen 15:5,6). Proof?
jt: Not to me Abraham "believed" (obeyed) God many moons before the "Christ event" You equate belief with obedience -- they are the same thing? Besides the obvious, you argument in this sentence is dealt with in my comments in the following.
JD: Read on. It (this "proof") is here in Romans 4:5 where it is "the faith of Him" and it is, again, in Gal 3:14-16 where "seed" is not "seeds as of many, but 'seed' as of one -- Christ." I suggest that apart from Paul, we would not see Jesus in the Gen. passage - but with Paul, the reference is without failure. I don't have the time to demonstrate, but this Gen passage is used in NT writings to speak of a people -- and not the Christ. What do we conclude? That a partnership of sorts is the resulting theology -- Christ and us. He performs and we show our appreciation.
jt: Rather God gave Him as a Covenant to the ppl and we get in on it. The Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY Him (Acts 5:32) Nothing in this sentence has ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE BIBLICAL ARGUMENT OF MY COMMENTS in the above paragraph. Please deal with that statement.
JD: Kruger ( I believe) has said that the essence of "faith" is a reverent "surprise" or something like that. I believe that it is "awe" and "appreciation" as an emotion. His works bring to the surface the emotion of appreciation, at least for me. And so His faith does the work of justification so that my "faith" might have time to fulfill the process of holiness which is the very purpose of all that God has done - He did it all for us.
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