On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:30:54 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Et al: I have been doing a little thinking about various aspects of my counseling ministry in view of the triune considerations. And I see, almost daily, the value of the teaching. In II Cor 5:21, we are told that Christ became sin (assumed all sin) so that in Him, we might become righteous. Righteousness in II Cor is a gift of grace.
jt: "That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" is how the verse goes JD. It's a process that does not happen by way of the incarnation JD. In fact this will never happen without our cooperation in the process of sanctification..
Et al: I have been doing a little thinking about various aspects of my counseling ministry in view of the triune considerations. And I see, almost daily, the value of the teaching. In II Cor 5:21, we are told that Christ became sin (assumed all sin) so that in Him, we might become righteous. Righteousness in II Cor is a gift of grace.
jt: "That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" is how the verse goes JD. It's a process that does not happen by way of the incarnation JD. In fact this will never happen without our cooperation in the process of sanctification..
JD: I disagree. In 5:21, we have an EVENT (the
assumption of sin by Christ on the cross) that is credited with the creation of
"righteousness in Him." We assume His righteousness in this II
Cor passage.
jt: Hate to disagree with one of the
Gk Brigade here but study 2 Cor 5:21 some more without a closed mind and
you will see that the word made is used twice and there is a different Gk
word each time."He was made sin is
Strongs #4160 poieo (to make or do,
execute, exercise) that we might be made Strongs #1096 ginomai (to cause
to be or generate, to become or come into being, be brought to pass, come to
pass, continue, grow, happen). So you see JD it is something other than a
one time event, especially in light of what follows; 6:1 reads "We then as
workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God
in vain" So obviously it is not a "done deal"
JD.
In Romans "faith" is exchanged for "righteousness." No
"process" is implied. We "cooperate" because this has already
happened, not to facilitate it's occurence in our
lives. Such a statement parallels with
Romans
4 and the
claim that His
faith (or
"faith" ----- let's not argue on this) is exchanged for our
righteousness. The point being that we are made righteous by
Another.
jt: So whose faith did Abraham have that was counted to Him for righteousness?
jt: So whose faith did Abraham have that was counted to Him for righteousness?
Now, here is good question. Without sounding like
I am backing off on "grace through faith salvation," I will say that
ALL theologies have their problematic concerns.
All of them. Which should say something for having our
"being" defined by our relationship with Christ (there is your
"process") as opposed to knowledge ( I Cor 8:1-3).
jt: God's Word itself has
no problematic concerns - the doctrines of men are what make things
complicated.
JD: But, to answer your
question. There is little doubt, IMO, that in a reading of Gen
15:5,6, the "faith" spoken of there is that of Abraham. He was counted
"righteous" at that moment (a problematic passage for your
theology, as well, I might add, with gusto.) Some may have
missed my rather subtle solution to this problem.
jt: Not a problem for me JD since I
don't accept just gazing up at the stars as the evidence of "faith"
referred to by scripture. In fact the NT faith chapter cites
different corresponding action "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called
to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went
out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as
in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob the heirs with him
of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations whose
builder and maker is God" (Heb 11:8-10)
JD: Recently, I have talked about "our faith attached to
His faith." ( I must add that I have seen this solution in the writings of
others -- I only adopted the solution) And this is one
of the passages of thought that gives me a defense for this
solution. There are TWO passages the help to define Romans
4:3, 11. I use the 4:3 and 11 as a single thought --
Abraham's justification is ours and for the same reason, per 4:3 and
11. Genesis 15:5,6 is one of two defining passages.
Abraham only looks to the stars and believes -- and BAM -- he
is "righteous. His faith is in play. Abraham's own
faith.
jt: I don't think so JD. Faith must
have some corresponding action or it is dead being alone (James
2:17-20,26). I'd scrap those misleading writers if I were
you.
JD: But Romans
4:5 (this is the 2nd passages of which I speak) - an immediate
contextual statement - says this:
But to the one not working but believing on the one
justifying the ungodly, (taht would be Chrsit) is accounted the faith of
him (Christ) for righteousness. " That Paul sees "Christ" in this example is somewhat of a
theological surprise because, apart from Paul, we might not see this connection
at all. Paul sees Christ in this Abrahamic illustration (Gen
15:5,6). Proof?
jt: Not to me Abraham "believed"
(obeyed) God many moons before the "Christ event"
JD: Read on. It (this "proof") is here
in Romans 4:5 where it is "the faith of Him" and it is, again, in Gal
3:14-16 where "seed" is not "seeds as of many, but 'seed' as of one
-- Christ." I suggest that apart from Paul,
we would not see Jesus in the Gen. passage - but with Paul, the
reference is without failure. I don't have the time to
demonstrate, but this Gen passage is used in NT writings to speak of a people --
and not the Christ. What do we conclude? That a
partnership of sorts is the resulting theology -- Christ and
us. He performs and we show our
appreciation.
jt: Rather God gave Him as
a Covenant to the ppl and we get in on it. The Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY Him (Acts
5:32)
JD: Kruger ( I believe) has said that the
essence of "faith" is a reverent "surprise" or
something like that. I believe that it is "awe" and
"appreciation" as an
emotion. His works bring to the surface the emotion of
appreciation, at least for me. And so His faith does the work of
justification so that my "faith" might have time to fulfill the process of
holiness which is the very purpose of all that God has done - He did it
all for us.
