Re: [TruthTalk] Belief

[Dave Hansen]

the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus. DAVEH:   Perhaps I should have explained myself a bit better, Perry.   What I was objecting to was your above comment.  I don't see where it is anybody's job to denigrate, berate or disqualify another's belief about Jesus.   Regardless what you may think I believe or not believe about Jesus....My Jesus is my Savior, just as he is your Savior.     As I see it....you, Kevin, Lance or any other person (Christian or not) can explain their belief in Jesus as they perceive him.   Then I (or anybody else) can agree that I believe the same way, or not.   For instance....     FWIW....I may be wrong in my assumptions of what you believe about the following, but follow along to get a feel for what I am trying to say:  1)  I assume you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother.  I believe the same.   2)  As I understand it, you believe Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost.   I do not.   I believe he is literalerally the Son of God, being conceived of the genetic (if that is the correct term) material of our Heavenly Father by the power of the Holy Ghost.  3)  You believe Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.   I believe the same.     Now, the above is a somewhat simplistic example, but I think it illustrates the point.  On two of the three points we agree.  On one we disagree.  Does that mean that we believe in two totally different Saviors?   Not in my opinion.     You are probably asking what this has to do with the original discussion.  The point I am trying to make is that if you were to single out my believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God as evidence that I believe in a different Jesus than you do.....well.....you might have to say that I believe the Bible too much when I quote a myriad of passages supporting my perspective view about Jesus.  Does the fact that we might have two different perspectives about Jesus' paternal attributes mean that we are talking about two different people?   If not....then what point is there in trying to prove what the person believes is wrong.   It doesn't change the fact that we are still talking about Jesus who was born of a virgin and died on a cross in our behalf.      Now....If you said you believed in the Jesus who died on the cross and was resurrected, and I said I believed in the Jesus who sold tacos in Mexico.....then it becomes obvious that we are talking about different; people.  You would not have to prove anything about my Jesus being the wrong one.   There would be nothing in common between them to tie them together.      Yikes....I think I'm rambling on now.   I hope I adequately explained why I said what I did.  If you want clarification, just ask. Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave,   Wait a minute! I agree with you and then you tell me I have it backwards? How does that work?   You said, "Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe in Jesus."   I responded, "I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus."   And now you say, "You've got that a bit backwards, Perry."   Aren't you in essence, then saying that YOU had it a bit backwards since I was agreeing with you? Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:25:39 -0700 DAVEH:   You've got that a bit backwards, Perry.   The onus is on you to prove (explain might be a better word) your Jesus.....I don't recall seeing much of that on TT.....other than he created the world, was born of a virgin, died and was resurrected.....all of which I believe.   Is there more you (TTers) want to say about your belief about Jesus? Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave,   I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and I feel we have done that. Repeatedly. But, you do not accept our evidence, and I suppose short of having a vision, you never will.   You have not said our Jesus is a false jesus because, since you say you beleive in the same Jesus we believe in, that would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:30 -0700 DAVEH:   Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe in Jesus.  FTR....I have not said that the Jesus Kevin, you Perry or any other TTer believes in is a false Jesus. Lance Muir wrote: DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage in a conversation that entails reality, then we have to continue to build upon that which has been said previously.According to you THE JESUS TO BE BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED WITHIN MORMON TEACHING. Is this so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin, Perry, Lance et al is a false Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy but, you get my point)What, IYO, are the eternal consequenses for non-Mormons?  Mr. Moderator:Please grant DaveH the opportunity of fully answering and, explaining.     DAVEH:  FTR Kevin, I believe in Jesus.   Therefore can we conclude     that you've made the judgment rather than God? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.