Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

[Lance Muir]

Bill speaks here of a believer's obedience. IFF Judy's understanding is the same then, David, you'd better jump in once again (cover Judy's back, as it were)for she has just said that the 'natural man' still exists within you. Therefore, your teaching on 'perfection' is quite literally impossible.   Apparently Judy has been unable to ascertain the presence of Bill's relationship with God through Christ ('born again) even 'til now. David, are you under the same misapprehension? I ask as you had so utterly and thoroughly missread John (see you on John the last couple of days)   Might you need a 'break' from teaching for a bit, David? You DO see the responsibility therein David, do you not? Yes? No? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 06, 2005 19:21 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible Bill in blue below The difference I see between obedience from our perspective and that of yours, is thus not one of action nearly so much as it is one of motive. And I happen to believe that in our way of thinking, one comes much closer to a proper motivation for obedience than does one from yours. It is not fear of hell that moves us, or simply because "we're supposed to do it" that we obey -- and it is certainly not because we must do what Christ cannot. In fact, woe for even suggesting so!   jt: Why the woe?  ... I would say Bill that you mischaracterize my position every bit as much as you claim that I mischaracterize yours although you will need to show me how I do this.   Did you not write these words: "Jesus did His part ... but we have our part in this also, He can't take care of our part"? How is my statement of dissagreement with you that "it is certainly not because we must do what Christ cannot," a mischaracterzation of your position? Perhaps, Judy, you do not stop to consider how your words might sound.     Obedience is the natural fruit of our relationship with our Father. When we come to really know him, we come to see that he loves us more than we love ourselves, and that he wants only what's best for us, and that he longs for our fulfillment with a greater passion than our own." Hence in participation with our Lord, we begin to see that obedience is not only right and loving, it is the only thing that makes good sense.  Bill   jt: Sorry Bill but obedience is not natural to the natural man <SNIP>   Are you completely unaware of the context of this discussion, Judy? This statement is written in that context, in regards to Christians and the motive for obedience on the part of Christians. In other words, there's no "natural man" in this discussion. The "natural man" doesn't even pursue a relationship with "the Father." I wrote, "'Obedience is the natural fruit of our relationship with our Father.' ... Hence in participation with our Lord, we begin to see that obedience is not only right and loving, it is the only thing that makes good sense." So why this talk about the "natural man"?   Do you believe that you must be born again Bill?  I've never seen you discuss this.  jt   Yes. And perhaps some day we can discuss what we think this means.   Bill