Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

[Bill Taylor]

Bill wrote  >  A right kind of obedience comes to mind. The truth is, Judy, you and certain others have mischaracterized our position so many times that you are now actually believing your own disinformation. I do not say that obedience is unimportant; neither have I ever; nor do I remember any of the other Trinitarians having said this.   jt responds: That's interesting - now we are "trinitarians and non trinitarians?"  Note - I do believe in the Godhead... How have I/we mischaracterized your position Bill?   Judy, my use of the word "Trinitarians" has not one thing to do with our discussion. That means it has nothing to do with my reference to your mischaracterizations. Is this clear enough for you to understand? I hope it is.   Moreover, I used the term "Trinitarians" to distinguish John, Lance, G, Debbie, and myself from "you and certain others" (I'm quoting myself), because that is the term which David used the other day to distinguish us from you and some of the others. Please do not make more of it than that.   I may get to some of your other comments later on.   Bill       ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible From: Bill Taylor Judy writes  >  Then I would ask - What does this participation look like in a person's every day life?    A right kind of obedience comes to mind. The truth is, Judy, you and certain others have mischaracterized our position so many times that you are now actually believing your own disinformation. I do not say that obedience is unimportant; neither have I ever; nor do I remember any of the other Trinitarians having said this.   jt: That's interesting - now we are "trinitarians and non trinitarians?"  Note - I do believe in the Godhead... How have I/we mischaracterized your position Bill?   We do not dwell on sin, and we do not boast about our accomplishments -- but that does not mean that we do not care about obedience. Indeed we are called to obedience, and the commandments are the same, whether we are reading them and applying them or you are.    jt: Do you perceive others of us as dwelling on sin and boasting in accomplishments?   The difference I see between obedience from our perspective and that of yours, is thus not one of action nearly so much as it is one of motive. And I happen to believe that in our way of thinking, one comes much closer to a proper motivation for obedience than does one from yours. It is not fear of hell that moves us, or simply because "we're supposed to do it" that we obey -- and it is certainly not because we must do what Christ cannot. In fact, woe for even suggesting so!   jt: Why the woe?  God won't force his people to do his will and the Church planned before the foundation of the world will not be a nation of puppets.  I would say Bill that you mischaracterize my position every bit as much as you claim that I mischaracterize yours although you will need to show me how I do this.   Talk about calling lightning bolts down from heaven! No, we have a seat at the Lord's table because he has placed us there. To quote a mutual friend of John, Lance and myself, "The real motive for obedience is grounded in relationship (emphasis mine).   jt: So you are all sitting at the Lord's table are you?   Obedience is the natural fruit of our relationship with our Father. When we come to really know him, we come to see that he loves us more than we love ourselves, and that he wants only what's best for us, and that he longs for our fulfillment with a greater passion than our own." Hence in participation with our Lord, we begin to see that obedience is not only right and loving, it is the only thing that makes good sense.  Bill   jt: Sorry Bill but obedience is not natural to the natural man even in the presence of one who loves us more than we love ourselves and it only makes sense until his will conflicts with our will in some area of our life.  Now the New Creation in Christ is a different matter.   Do you believe that you must be born again Bill?  I've never seen you discuss this.  jt