Re: [TruthTalk] Perry & Dave: inquiring minds want to know

[Dave Hansen]

I am being serious here, and am coming to you for the truth. You often say that if i want to know what mormons believe, then ask a mormon. DAVEH:   The problem is that you are an anti-Mormon, Perry.  Trying to discuss LDS theology with an anti-Mormon is worse than futile, as it is your goal to denigrate the things in which I believe.     If I were to deny the Pay Lay Ale accusation below, would you believe me?  I doubt it.  Even if you did, it would just lead you to ask other things in an effort to find a way to criticize and accuse.   For you to even suggest you are coming to you for the truth makes me question your sincerity in wanting to know anything about LDS theology.  Your past actions betray your intent, IMO. Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave,   I am being serious here, and am coming to you for the truth. You often say that if i want to know what mormons believe, then ask a mormon.   Why do you guys raise your arms "to the square" and chant "Pay Lay Ale" three times? Do you know what that means? You see, I found on the following web page    From http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/templeofthegodmakers.htm: (and have read in other books and web pages with similar statements) that contained the following:   "If you are still not sure if they [mormons] pray to the false god or the true God, did you know that the chant has been changed? Until just before 1930, they chanted "Pale hale hale" or "Pale ale ale." What a coincidence! The direct Hebrew translation of "Pele Heylel" is "Marvelous Lucifer"!(4)   Can you see why I interpret things like this as being the footprint of Satan? Now, as a momron, perhaps you can explain to me what "Pay Lay Ale" really means, and why it might have been changed in 1930. Weren't the words of the ceremony inspired by god? If so, then why the changes? Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Perry & Dave:  Civil Discussion Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:32:32 -0700 DAVEH:   I want to thank you for the change in tone, Perry.  I will endeavor to reciprocate.   Hopefully we can have a civil discussion without the need to go into an attack mode..... *your "apology" is really full of further insults, negating any veiled attempt at an apology. * DAVEH:   That is exactly correct, Perry.  That was my intent, and I'm glad you understood the implication.   I'll admit to reaching a point of being fed up with the garbage that has been cast my way, and that was my way of retaliating.  Tain't very Christlike, is it.  For that I apologize. *More than once I have seen you rely on that to conveniently "forget" things. * DAVEH:   Yes, I do forget things.  But....I also know my nature.  And, my nature is not to badger somebody over something for which there has been an apology.  Like you said....I didn't complain before you apologize.  I sincerely don't think I complained afterward....I just don't do such.     My suggestion is that IF you can't back up an accusation, be very careful in making it.  There is no way for me to prove or even remember something that was never said.  So...IF I said it....IMO, you should be prepared to either prove it with a quote that is not taken out of context, or retract the accusation.  That's the standard I try to live by, and I would hope you would apply it to your life as well.  The loose accusations that are adrift in TT are simply not acceptable standards for Christian adults, IMO. *even when you know someone is offended by a bad joke you made, you cannot offer a sincere apology. You feign an apology and use it to mask further insults. I call that "sly".* DAVEH:   That's because I found your response to be highly unbelievable.  A guy as toughened to religious discussions as I perceive you to be should have a bit thicker skin, IMO.   For such a trite and common analogy (/what are you smoking/) to affect somebody like you or Dean (a street preacher who one would think would be used to much worse) is really laughable---forgive the terminology on that one.....but it is the way I felt when I heard you complain of being offended.  Even now, I find it incredible that you would think that I really should have thought you were offended.  And...I still don't think so.  I guess it is similar to when you refused to believe I came to TT to learn about what Protestants believe and why.  It doesn't matter how many times I explained my reasons for being here, you simply refused to accept what I was saying.  Guess I did the same to you, Perry.    Don't consider that an apology though, as I don't think you believe my reasons for being here any more than I can accept your easily offended nature.  Perhaps we are both wrong. *Yes, I have leaned hard on your faith.* DAVEH:   So then why would you be surprised at my sarcastic apology?   You want to play hardball with somebody who enjoys getting beat-up all the time?  I know you loathe Mormonism, and I've got no problem with you believing as you do, as long as you respect my right to do the same.  And....you should know by now that I'm not going to be changing my thinking simply because somebody wants to bloody my nose over my beliefs.  From my perspective, the more the anti-Mormon folks post in an effort to denigrate my beliefs only serves to strengthen them when garbage is posted.  If you aren't following me, let me give you an example.  Some TTers want people to think LDS theology teaches that God had sex with Mary.  Not only do I not believe such, I have a reasonably fair understanding of what LDS theology teaches.  So when I hear something like that repeated over and over even after I have explained what we do believe, it simply points out why those making such claims are not to be trusted to tell the truth.  So....why would I believe anything else they say? *Until you open up to the Hioly Spirit, denounce this satanically inspired cult, and accept the God and Jesus of the Bible, there  is no hope for you.* DAVEH:   As you recently accused me of doing........ *You just don't stop, do you? * ............Perhaps we should consider that it could just be the pot calling the kettle black. Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave,   In my response below I intentionally used hyperbole to point out the fact that, while you appear to apologize on the surface, *your "apology" is really full of further insults, negating any veiled attempt at an apology. *   I guess there is no accounting for your bad and biased memory. You know the archives are almost impossible to navigate for anything more than a few weeks old, and I do not keep old messages. *More than once I have seen you rely on that to conveniently "forget" things. *   I fully understood, and understand, the nuance of asking what someone is smoking, but I still was offended by that. The interesting thing here, and what this experiement in hyperbole has pointed out, is that *even when you know someone is offended by a bad joke you made, you cannot offer a sincere apology. You feign an apology and use it to mask further insults. I call that "sly".* *Yes, I have leaned hard on your faith.* As I pointed out before, I will rebut Satan, regardless of from which camp he enters this forum. I see the footprint of Satan all over what JS has wrought. *Until you open up to the Hioly Spirit, denounce this satanically inspired cult, and accept the God and Jesus of the Bible, there  is no hope for you.* ------------------------- By the way, care to tell the forum why you guys raise your arms "to the square" and chant "Pay Lay Ale" three times? Do you know what that means? From http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/templeofthegodmakers.htm: "If you are still not sure if they pray to the false god or the true God, did you know that the chant has been changed? Until just before 1930, they chanted "Pale hale hale" or "Pale ale ale." What a coincidence! The direct Hebrew translation of "Pele Heylel" is "Marvelous Lucifer"!(4) There is something strange going on in Joe's house, David. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Restoration versus condemnation-David Miller Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:23:37 -0700 *Dave, you just don't quit, do you.* DAVEH:   That's right Perry.......It's one of my weaknesses.  I don't quit as long as others keep pushing. *Now you are implying that I am not a clear thinking American. Nice jab* DAVEH:   It does seem that way, eh!   Look at what you said to John about my smoking sarcasm..... / Sure, yes, of course I knew Dave was using it as a gest, John. But not all tongue-in-cheek humor is appreciated. While you may get a chuckle out of it, I do not particularly like being equated to a drug user, even as a gest.  How about if I asked you, in gest of course, "Hey, John, do you still beat your wife?". Now, that is a joke, right? Or is it? I don't know, but I do know that you MAY not like it, and you MAY be offended by it. Right?  It also depends on who is doing the joking. If it a close friend that I can trust, and we have a rapport for joking in that vein, then I know exactly what they mean. But, if it is someone that has been sly and hostile in the past to me, why should I not consider the comment as hostile, or a veiled jab?/ .........Now Perry......how many TTers do you think view *your *above comment as a *clear thinking*???   May I suggest..../none/!   You are certainly an American, but I wouldn't think there would be very many Americans who do not understand the /what have you been smoking /nuance.  And I bet there isn't a single TTer who did not understand it, even those who might be half-witted.   And IMO, those who are offended by it aren't *clear thinking* either.   BTW...Thank you for the compliment.....I believe you deserved it. *No we are incapable of understanding a gest? I know it is was a gest, I just found it to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.* DAVEH:   You say that as if I haven't found any of *your *comments about my beliefs *to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.*  Why is it different when the shoe is on the other foot? * It is not that I am so sensitive, it is that you have not earned to right to joke that way with me. * DAVEH:    Ohhhhhhhh.....that is priceless, Perry!!!  :-D *That is like me saying, "I did not call you a wife beater, I just asked, 'Do you still beat your wife?' (in gest, of course). Nice try, Dave. * DAVEH:   FWIW.....I haven't beat her since I started beating the dog.   *Nice try, *Perry.     ;-) *Now we are half-witted...or less than half witted? We can't even understand as much as a half-witted kid? You are a true apologizer, Dave! * DAVEH:   You've certainly proved my point, Perry. *I don't think Dean was joking when he called you a pagan, and I happen to agree with him, that those who follow the mormon faith are pagans, not knowing the God and Jesus of the Bible, folowing occultic rituals and worshipping a flase god. How do you define 'pagan'?* DAVEH:  Of course he wasn't joking.  I did not read it as a joke, and he didn't indicate it to be a joke.  I'm sure he was just as serious as you are now being serious.   From <http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/pagan........ ++++++++++++++++++ Definitions: Pagan Pagan Adjective 1. Not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam. Noun 1. A person who does not acknowledge your God. Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved. ++++++++++++++++++ .........I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, Perry. *And, when I called you "sly" a few months back you did not complain...until someone else said they thought it was an ad-hom. Boy, you sure jumped on the bandwagon at that point...I apologized, and you, taking advantage of the situation, flogged me for days over that one, while at the same time refusing to apologize for an injustice you had committed. * DAVEH:   You've lost me on this one, Perry.    I responded to your above claim in a parallel post tonight, and will await your proof of guilt before offering an apology.  I really do not remember giving you a bad time about the sly comment.  IF I did, I'll sincerely apologize.   After the time that you had apologized to me, I thought I said nothing more about it.    As for the injustice I committed.....All I can remember you taking offense at is calling you what you are....an anti-Mormon.  You fit the accepted definition, so why apologize?  It wasn't meant to demean, but merely to distinguish you from others who are not LDS, and not anti-Mormon. *Notice that you word it so that it is not your problem you offended me, it is my problem...my "sensitivities" * DAVEH:   Welllllll, Perry.........Betwixt the two of us, you do seem to be the one who is ultra sensitive.   So....yeah, it is your problem.  Especially since you are a member of TT who has had little reservation against dumping on Mormon TTers. *After reading the above "apology", why do I get the feeling that you are not apologiing, but turning this into an opportunity to further demean Dean and I?* DAVEH:    What Dean recently said of me....... */you big cry baby/* .........might more appropriately be applied to you, Perry. _*You just don't stop, do you? *_ DAVEH:   That's right Perry....you just might want to remember that in the future. Charles Perry Locke wrote: *Dave, you just don't quit, do you.* In your statements below you appear to apologize, while continuing to abase my character...get this... DAVEH:   I'm sorry you feel that way, Perry.   I thought it to be pretty well understood my most clear thinking Americans that asking that (smoking) question is a joking way to point out the ludicrousness of what they said. *Now you are implying that I am not a clear thinking American. Nice jab*. It was not at all intended to imply that either you or Dean were dopers.....just that your claims are pretty wild, as if you can't discern reality.   My apologies if I failed to convey that message so that you (and Dean) could understand it. *No we are incapable of understanding a gest? I know it is was a gest, I just found it to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.*    BTW.........I pretty much know that both you and Dean are stone cold sober, but I fail to understand why you are so sensitive. * It is not that I am so sensitive, it is that you have not earned to right to joke that way with me. * I did not call either of you a doper....I just asked what you were smoking. *That is like me saying, "I did not call you a wife beater, I just asked, 'Do you still beat your wife?' (in gest, of course). Nice try, Dave. * The proper answer had you wanted to give it would have been, "nothing".....to clear the smoke from the air. Now it is my problem for not giving the right answer...and "clear the smoke from the air"...another bad joke, Dave. _*You just don't stop, do you? *_ Instead, both of you apparently have taken offense, assuming the opposite of what any half-witted kid would fully understand. *Now we are half-witted...or less than half witted? We can't even understand as much as a half-witted kid? You are a true apologizer, Dave! * Yet, Dean called me a pagan and you did not utter a peep as far as I know.  As you know, I've got a pretty thick skin, and have come to expect such from some TTers, so I don't feel the need to cry foul at the ad hom.   I just find it interesting that you guys can dish it out, but seem to get all confused and choke on that which is returned.....even when it is a joke. *I don't think Dean was joking when he called you a pagan, and I happen to agree with him, that those who follow the mormon faith are pagans, not knowing the God and Jesus of the Bible, folowing occultic rituals and worshipping a flase god. How do you define 'pagan'?* Now, when he equated you to flatulence, I was offended, but I let John handle it since he has been mothering the group lately, and I think he did a fine job. So, I did not intervene. *And, when I called you "sly" a few months back you did not complain...until someone else said they thought it was an ad-hom. Boy, you sure jumped on the bandwagon at that point...I apologized, and you, taking advantage of the situation, flogged me for days over that one, while at the same time refusing to apologize for an injustice you had committed. *    FTR......Again I apologize for damaging your sensitivities, Perry. *Notice that you word it so that it is not your problem you offended me, it is my problem...my "sensitivities" * *After reading the above "apology", why do I get the feeling that you are not apologiing, but turning this into an opportunity to further demean Dean and I?* Perry -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.