Perry, thanks for taking the time. I now understand better how you are reading it, and your reason for why the switch from ye to they and them is reasonable, although I would have expected something more along the lines of "those of you" for clarity's sake.
You asked which of us have been led of the Spirit to our reading. You are the only one who has made a claim of revelation concerning this passage. I'm simply reading it at face value. I will take up what you have shared in prayer and consider it further. At this moment, I still have reservations about it. Does God really give promises to some in the church that he does not give to others? Your rendering leads to the idea that there exists a clergy in the body of Christ which is special to God with special promises. I see the clergy and laity distinction as something that crept into the church later, just as the pope concept did, and the single pastor / ceo of the congregation concept did. It seems to me that I will have to re-examine all my views concerning this if your perspective is right here. I am more than willing to do this. You referenced Luke 16:18 below. Just to make sure I am not missing something you said, did you mean Mark 16:18, kind of like I meant Mark when I typed John? I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Also, to be clear about this, is it your sincere testimony that the Holy Spirit came upon you and gave you this viewpoint? Did you experience some kind of vision or dream that brought this perspective? This is an important witness if you are taking this position. I thought you were perhaps saying this flippantly, as if revelation by the Spirit no longer happens today. Maybe you can tell me more about how this line of thinking came to you. Peace be with you. David Miller. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Comments below: >From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Perry wrote: > > I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be parenthetical >to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but not >changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just >upbraided for thier unbelief. >The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by >the author, John. John is the one who refers to the eleven as they >andthem. This is not Jesus addressing anyone. Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the author was Mark. >Verse 15 starts with, "And HE said unto them..." I assume the antecedent >of "He" is Jesus. So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus speaking, >up to but not including verse 19 where it says, "THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD >SPOKEN." Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent of >"they and them" switches back to the original, which would be the eleven. >So, when he says "YE" in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and >therefore "they or them" are referring to others to whom they preach. When >Jesus is speaking, he would use the word "YE" again if he meant to refer to >the eleven. Why start out talking to them saying "Go YE" but then switch >to saying THEY or THEM? Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and >instead of saying "YOU" says "THEY or THEM"? Or is it possible that you >assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18? David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents embedded...perhaps that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me: (14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen. (15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [It is important at this point to recall that Jesus has just upbraided the apostles (v14) for their unbelief!] (16) He [of the eleven] that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he [of the eleven] that believeth not shall be damned. [notice in verse 17 that the focus changes from "the 11" to "those of the eleven that believe" (which turned out to be all of them, I believe). It is no longer proper to refer to them as "ye" since "they" and "them" now refers to a subset of "ye". He cannot say "ye" without implying ALL of the 11!] (17) And these signs shall follow them [of the elven] that believe; In my name shall they [those of the eleven that believe] cast out devils; they [those of the eleven that believe] shall speak with new tongues; (18) They [those of of the eleven that believe] shall take up serpents; and if they [those of of the eleven that believe] drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them [those of of the eleven that believe]; they [those of of the eleven that believe] shall lay hands on the sick, and they [those of of the eleven that believe] shall recover. (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them [the eleven], he [Jesus] was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they [the eleven] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them [the eleven], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. That is how it was revealed to me. As to your earlier reference to Luke 10:19 (in a different post) about the 70 treading on serpents...the 70 were given a similar commision as was given to the 11...so it makes sense that they would receive similar powers. We cannot assume that if Jesus gave certain powers to the 11, or to the seventy, that it automatically means all Christians would have those same powers. If it states elsewhere that all Christians are given certain powers, then so be it. But when he is talking to the 11, or to the seventy...that is to whom is giving the powers. (If you still doubt me, go drink some poison, play with some poisonous snakes and scorpions, or walk out in front of a speeding vehicle. Do you look left and right before crossing the road? If so, doesn't that show a lack of faith in Luke 10:19 and Luke 16:18) Also, notice that verse 20 affirms my understanding by stating that the Apostles did indeed confirm the gospel with the powerss they were given...why does it not affirm that those to whom the gospel was preached exhibited those signs? I think we have covered everything and each know what our differences are. There is only one thing left to be resolved...which of us was led to our understanding by the Holy Spirit? You? Me? Neither? (We have agreed that we both could not be led to our respective conclusions by the Holy Spirit.) Perry ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
