RE: [TruthTalk] torrance.

Mon, 20 Mar 2006 03:58:48 -0800

Do not know who but perhaps you are thinking of Hugh Knox a not so Calvinistic Presbyterian minister who believed in Free Will.
 
The first Missionaries to this area were the Moravians. A full half of them perished before a year.
The first two Moravian Missionaries tried to sell themselves into slavery to reach the slaves there.
 
http://reformedperspectives.org/newfiles/rus_smith/NT.smith.colossians.1.1-13.html
On a perilous sea voyage from London to the British colony of Georgia, two young Anglican preachers found themselves trapped on a small ship in a big storm. They, along with the rest of the passengers and the crew, feared for their lives. There was only one exception to the panic on board — a band of Moravians who spent the entire storm singing hymns and praising God. These two Anglican preachers were so impressed by the faith of these Moravians that they sought them out and spent time with them. When the two returned to London, they began to worship with the Moravian community there. One night at a service on Aldersgate Street, one of those young men experienced what he called a “warming of the heart.” His name was John Wesley
 
An interesting look at the LOVE for Others they had.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/mevangel/leprosy.htm
 
Since Moravians existed before the reformation they can not be considered "POTESTants"

ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just wondering; does anyone know if this John Knox is the same one who in the early 1700’s apparently won Alexander Hamilton to Christ when he was a teenager in the West Indies? izzy
 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 3:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] torrance.
 
Know was just a disciple of his Mother the REFORMED CATHOLIC Calvin
Knox began as a Catholic priest
Knox became a major supporter and disciple of Calvin's

Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Judy:Why indeed! Because he knew the works of Knox thoroughly. He also knew the works of Calvin thoroughly as he was editor of the 22 volumes of Calvin's NT commentaries. Like all of redeemed humanity Judy, some of what persons say is worthwhile.
----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Taylor
Sent: March 18, 2006 09:00
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] torrance.
 
Why does he clearly quote from what he does not hold to then Lance?
Wouldn't you call this being doubleminded?  His doctrine is "Reformed" Calvinistic - same thing
 
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:56:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
I LITERALLY cleaned my glasses, Judy. I took your interpretation to heart and, you are wrong vis a vis TFT's take on 'election'. I do see how you came to the conclusion you did, however.
From: Judy Taylor
 
Do you understand what you are reading yourself Lance?
The statement below "Reformed doctrine of election" is Calvinistic
John Knox who ppl say converted Scotland was Presbyterian (Calvinistic)
Who pray tell wrote what Torrance calls the "Scots Confession?"
Also "unprofitable servants" don't make it ... only the good and "faithful" ones
Clean your eyeglasses Lance and try again
This is powerfully driven home by the Scots Confession in several articles, such as the twelfth and the fifteenth. All that we do is unworthy, so that we must fall down before you and unfeignedly confess that we are unprofitable servants—and it is precisely Justification by the free Grace of Christ alone that shows us that all that we are and have done even as believers is called in question.
 
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:07:30 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
You are quite correct as to your TFT observations, JD. Judy brings to her reading of TFT a bias that will not permit an equitable treatment of that which is there in the text of his article.
 
That is the exact antithesis of the Reformed doctrine of election, which rests salvation upon the prior and objective decision of God in Christ
 
As far as I know, Torrance believed that salvation was offered to all  --  not a Calvinist opinion, my dear.   And you are much more the Calvinist that he.
 
His comments below gives us a consistent explanation of the biblical notion that man is justified apart from obedience to the law.  It beats a redactive explanation of same  !! that's for sure. 
 
jd
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
He also says this:
But the Scots Confession laid the axe to the root of any such movement when it insisted that we have to spoil ourselves even of our own regeneration and sanctification as well as justification. What is "axed" so radically was the notion of "co-redemption" which in our day has again become so rampant, not only in the Roman Church, but in Liberal and Evangelical Protestantism, e.g., the emphasis upon existential decision as the means whereby we "make real" for ourselves the kerygma [proclamation] of the New Testament, which means that in the last resort our salvation depends upon our own personal or existential decision. That is the exact antithesis of the Reformed doctrine of election, which rests salvation upon the prior and objective decision of God in Christ. It is Justification by Grace alone that guards the Gospel from corruption by "Evangel icals," "Liberals," and Romans alike.
So Torrance is also a Calvinist at heart who is resting in Calvin's "doctrine of election" in spite of all the big theological words and high talk...
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 04:43:32 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In the recent article posted by Lance from Torrance, the theologican says this:
"Nowhere is this more apparent than in the case of the popular minister where everything centers on him, and the whole life of the congregation is built round him.  What is that but Protestant sacerdotalism, sacerdotalism which involves the displacement of the Humanity of Christ by the humanity of the minister, and the obscuring of the Person of Christ by the personality of the minister?"
amen.   We have here a well worded warning to the mega church industry that  the Christ,  His very person, just might be lost to a pattern of worship that denies opportunities for authenticity  and spontaneous participation by the attendee.  It can be argued that such 'worship services"  fly in the face of such passages as Eph 5:18,19.   There is a bonding and a closeness that takes place in a small group that is not possible in the mega assemblies. 
 
jd
 
 
 
 
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