----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 18, 2006 21:06
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
torrance.
Lance have you attended these meetings?
The Character of Theology by John Franke
the reformed traditon, it is important to understand that he
does not mean Charles Hodge and R. C. Sproul. He is talking about
the tradition stemming from Barth. I believe that the kind of
reformed theology Franke is doing has the potential to be
a rallying point for evangelicals of all traditions. It does not have the
double predestination of people either to heaven or hell as taught by
Augustine and Calvin at it heart. Instead it has a vision of the missional
God who seeks to save all creatures. It does not try to graft into
Christian theology a pagan notion of god as derived from philosophy.
Rather...
The Character of Theology by John Franke
Given the violent history of Western civilization, it is both
unsurprising and unfortunate that militaristic and
competitive metaphors for evangelism proliferate among evangelicals
today.
His metaphor for evangelism is "dance," which is a
good way to talk about leading someone without controling them, for coming
together in relationship without coercion and for emphasizing the beauty
of God rather than the power and wrath of God.
We need to realize that
postmodern people associate Christianity with violence and top-down social
control.
summarizing postmodern evangelism.
1. The Relational
Factor - count conversations not conversions.
2. The Narrative
Factor - listen to their story, share your story and share God's
story, not just proposisitons or formulas.
3. The Communal Factor -
expect conversion to normally occur in the context of authentic Christian
community, not just in the context of information.
4. The
Journey Factor - see disciple-making as a holistic process and unending
journey, not just as a conversion event.
5. The Holy Spirit Factor -
believe that God is at work "out there" in everyone . . . not just "in
here" in the church.
6. The Learning Factor - see evangelism as part of
your own discipleship - not just the other person's!
7. The Missional
Factor - see evangelism as recruiting people for God's mission on earth,
not just people for heaven.
8. The Service Factor - see evangelism as
one facet of our identity as servants to all.
Kevin Deegan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Know was just a disciple of his Mother the REFORMED CATHOLIC
Calvin
Knox began as a Catholic priest
Knox became a major supporter and disciple
of Calvin's
Lance Muir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Judy:Why indeed! Because he knew the
works of Knox thoroughly. He also knew the works of Calvin thoroughly
as he was editor of the 22 volumes of Calvin's NT commentaries. Like
all of redeemed humanity Judy, some of what persons say is
worthwhile.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 18, 2006
09:00
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
torrance.
Why does he clearly quote from what he
does not hold to then Lance?
Wouldn't you call this being
doubleminded? His doctrine is "Reformed" Calvinistic - same
thing
I LITERALLY cleaned my glasses, Judy.
I took your interpretation to heart and, you are wrong vis a vis
TFT's take on 'election'. I do see how you came to the conclusion
you did, however.
Do you understand what you are reading
yourself Lance?
The statement below "Reformed doctrine
of election" is Calvinistic
John Knox who ppl say converted
Scotland was Presbyterian (Calvinistic)
Who pray tell wrote what Torrance calls
the "Scots Confession?"
Also "unprofitable servants" don't make
it .... only the good and "faithful" ones
Clean your eyeglasses Lance and try
again
This is powerfully driven home by the Scots Confession in several articles, such as the
twelfth and the fifteenth. All that we do is
unworthy, so that we must fall down before you and unfeignedly
confess that we are unprofitable
servantsand it is
precisely Justification by the free Grace of Christ alone that
shows us that all that we are
and have done even as believers is called in question.
You are quite correct as to your
TFT observations, JD. Judy brings to her reading of TFT a bias
that will not permit an equitable treatment of that which is
there in the text of his article.
That is the exact antithesis of the
Reformed doctrine of election, which rests salvation upon the
prior and objective decision of God in Christ
As far as I know, Torrance believed that salvation was
offered to all -- not a Calvinist opinion, my
dear. And you are much more the Calvinist that
he.
His comments below gives us a consistent explanation of
the biblical notion that man is justified apart from
obedience to the law. It beats a redactive explanation
of same !! that's for sure.
jd
--------------
Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
He also says this:
But the Scots Confession laid the axe to the root of
any such movement when it insisted that we have to spoil ourselves even of our own
regeneration and sanctification as well as
justification. What is "axed" so radically was the
notion of "co-redemption" which in our day has again
become so rampant, not only in the Roman Church, but in
Liberal and Evangelical Protestantism, e.g., the emphasis upon
existential decision as
the means whereby we "make real" for ourselves the kerygma
[proclamation] of the New Testament, which means that in
the last resort our salvation depends upon our own
personal or existential decision. That is the
exact antithesis of the Reformed doctrine of election,
which rests salvation upon the prior and objective
decision of God in Christ. It is Justification by Grace alone
that guards the Gospel from corruption by "Evangel icals,"
"Liberals," and Romans alike.
So Torrance
is also a Calvinist at heart who is resting in Calvin's
"doctrine of election" in spite of all the big theological
words and high talk...
In the recent article posted by Lance from
Torrance, the theologican says this:
"Nowhere is this more apparent than in the case of
the popular minister where everything centers on him,
and the whole life of the congregation is built round
him. What is that but Protestant sacerdotalism,
sacerdotalism which involves the displacement of the
Humanity of Christ by the humanity of the minister, and
the obscuring of the Person of Christ by the personality
of the minister?"
amen. We have here a well worded
warning to the mega church industry that the
Christ, His very person, just might be lost to a
pattern of worship that denies opportunities for
authenticity and spontaneous
participation by the attendee. It can be argued
that such 'worship services" fly in the face of
such passages as Eph 5:18,19. There is a
bonding and a closeness that takes place in a small
group that is not possible in the mega assemblies.
jd
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