On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 12:00:22AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I suggest you compare the failed way the ASF dealt with those
> > requests to the successful way the FSF dealt with it.
>
> I'd really prefer if you didn't blame us for the fact that your own
> beliefs are much closer to the GPL than the ASL.
I'd really prefer it if people from the ASF stopped coming back
at me with these ridiculous, stupid, pointless, and frustrating
"you don't get it" comments.
My beliefs aren't relevant here since I've expressed a desire,
repeatedly, and for months now, to make whatever changes are
necessary to make the license compatible with your license.
> > Here's a challenge: Can you find *anything* in the last draft
> > of the SPL that would have prevented you from working with it?
> >
> > http://shimari.com/SPL/SPL.html
>
> This license does not clearly identify the line where
> modifications to WM end and additional software packages begin.
> It is clear if WM is used without modifications; however, if
> modifications are done, it seems unclear to me. The definition
> of 'modifications' includes: "...including without limitation
> alterations performed by patching, deleting, adding to, or
> replacing parts of the the software..."
Here is the whole definition of modification for reference:
To "modify" computer software means to alter the literal source
code, structure, sequence, or organization of the software,
including without limitation alterations performed by patching,
deleting, adding to, or replacing parts of the the software, no
matter whether performed at the time of use or execution, or at
some earlier time.
> What kinds of additions are covered?
Any addition which alters the structure of WebMacro (how it fits
together), the sequence (inserting something between two lines
of code), or organization (what code goes in what file/package)
would be covered.
> Does it have to be in org.webmacro.*?
The license makes no references to Java package names, so no.
> What if it's a class which extends WMServlet, causing it to behave
> differently at runtime? Where does it end?
It ends at the point where your modification has no impact on
the structure, sequence, or organization of WebMacro.
I could clarify that term. It has a specific meaning here in
Canada, but it probably doesn't elsewhere, and I could replace
it with something that was spelled out in the license.
> If we can't modify the software, then we can't maintain it and
> we won't use it
You can clearly modify the software. Modifications to the software
itself have to be shared but under no circumstance are you
prevented from modifying the software--even under the GNU GPL.
> OTOH if modifications to the software might
> cause the licensing to become sticky, then the would invalidate
> the ASL.
Yes, and that is a very important concern. We have to make sure
we get that right otherwise you can't use the license. Ensuring
that the license fits this requirement was what the whole process
was supposed to be about.
> The MPL 1.1, while similar, is much more careful to delinate this in
> precise language.
However its definitions aren't really suitable at all for Java
programs, which link at runtime.
> > At this point I'm simply hoping to reform the ASF so that it
> > becomes a functioning software foundation capable of dealing
> > with the world. At this point it's not. It's just a code
> > hosting facility, a fanatical religion and a few badly
> > written policy documents.
> >
> > Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
>
> Indeed.
>
> Well, FWIW -- I'm quite dubious that further discussion will
> influence any ASF members, since you've shown very little respect
> for us in the matter.
I used to have respect for the ASF, based on the ASF having
created the Apache webserver (or more accurately, having taken
over that project), etc., but now I've had to deal with the ASF
and you're right--I've lost respect for it.
Justin
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