> However, since WM is currently available under a license which is
> effectively equivalent to the ASL, there are absolutely no licensing
> issues with it -- using it should impose no burden on you or your
> clients.
>
> cheers --
>
> Ed
One clarification on that...I still haven't heard a response to my questions
that I sent to the FSF about the legality of what Justin has done with the
dual license. Yes, Justin has responded that it is legal, but I want to hear
it from the FSF before I believe anything because so far, Justin has been less
than truthful about things he has stated here. I'm not going to go into detail
about what those things are because every time I respond, Justin responds with
statements that lead me to believe that he doesn't even read the emails that
he responds to. Sigh. It is a never ending battle that I have entirely given
up on at this point. It is a complete waste of time to try to converse with
Justin because he has decided to set himself into his own views and no matter
what I or anyone else says or does, they cannot be changed or corrected.
Justin has decided to take a personal war and opinion out on the entire ASF
based on his dealings with no more than 4 or 5 people out of the entire member
base of around 40+ people. I find that absolutely nuts, but whatever, it
doesn't matter any longer as we have what has turned out to be a far superior
implementation of the Context concept that he first implemented in WebMacro
and which I am grateful for.
To restate, the ASF is not interested in working with other licenses because
the ASF already has a license that works for them. If other software has been
released under a license which has been stated is incompatible with the APL,
then we will in fact go ahead and re-implement the technology under a license
which we can use. Justin likes to call this "Not Invented Here", but it really
isn't about that, it is about allowing the community the most amount of
freedom when using the software and the GPL or even the SPL doesn't
necessarily allow that. Sure, Justin could revise the SPL until he we are all
happy with it, but it still won't be the BSD/ASL license which I have choosen
as being perfectly acceptable for me. Anything else doesn't matter to me
because I already have a license that is acceptable. Why should I or anyone
else help Justin work on another license when we already have one that works?
Again, talk about "Not Invented Here". Of course I have stated that to Justin
many times in the past, but he chooses to not hear that. Whatever.
The humor here is that after all the work on the SPL, he eventually released
his software under a BSD license. How irrational is that? Why even bother with
the SPL in the first place? That is another point that Justin doesn't seem to
understand either because we sure spent a lot of time trying to convince him
of that and it fell on ears that thought that we were saying that he didn't
get it. Well, Justin, we were right...you don't get it...or at least you got
it enough to understand that the SPL was a complete waste of time and that the
BSD license really was the right choice. :-)
In the future, it will be up to the community to decide which product they
want to use and I think that there is more than enough room to have two
implementations of the concepts that WebMacro pioneered. It isn't even a
competition...we will both have our own communities and that is fine as well.
Justin runs his projects from a more censorship and dictator based philosophy
and I like to work within projects as a group effort. It is not only licensing
but also development philosophy differences that have kept us apart. That is
not a bad thing because the way that Justin does things is perfectly ok...I
just choose to not do things that way and that should also be perfectly ok.
For what it is worth, there is one single class that is currently being used
in Velocity that is from WebMacro's code base (FastWriter). As soon as I get
home tonight, I'm going to replace it with other code (from TeaServlet) that
is not only done better IMHO (that is the real criteria), but is also under a
single APL 1.1 license and doesn't carry the personality baggage that Justin's
code does.
Justin, you can respond to this message however you like. Let me state though
that I will not respond to you any longer. I have seen you continually abuse
this mailing list and now you are into making personal attacks on the entire
ASF even though you released your software under a BSD license after we
created Velocity. Your actions so far have prooven to be completely
untrustworthy and your statements have bordered on the truth. I'm done dealing
with you and now I need to move on and continue making quality software under
a license which I feel allows me to benefit the largest community possible.
So, to the Turbine community, I encourage you to use whatever software you
think works the best for you. Turbine will continue to support as many types
of template engines as the core developers want to support. The beauty of
Turbine is that it is now very easy to integrate whatever new technology comes
along. Maybe next week it will be an entirely different technology, I don't
know, but I'm personally open to supporting it and I think that is what is
important.
For me personally, I feel as though the implementation of Velocity is an
absolutely beautiful work of art and having looked at most of WebMacro's
code, I feel that it is not as well designed or cleanly implemented and that
is the factor that matters to me the most. Therefore, my efforts will be
directed toward Velocity for that reason alone. Could I spent time fixing
WebMacro to be better? Yes, I could, in fact, I contributed a bunch of code to
simply make it's build easier (integration with Ant)...well, Justin decided
that code wasn't done right and removed it...as well as my motivation to work
on WebMacro any further. I have yet to do that to someone's code in any of the
15+ OSS projects that I have worked on over the last 7 years.
I'm sorry that you all have had to read this battle that has gone on. I'm
afraid to say that it probably won't end any time soon because there are not
only core license issues, but philosophy issues as well. In the end, I
actually do believe that this ends up producing better software because I'm a
firm believer that forking is a good thing. Because of this, I also feel that
it is the community that will win in the end because you will end up with more
quality software to choose from as a result of the competition that this
encourages.
Love and Hugs and Peace to everyone.
-jon
--
Scarab -
Java Servlet Based - Open Source
Bug/Issue Tracking System
<http://scarab.tigris.org/>
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